To me, and I know we have all discussed this before, I can't stop thinking how much of a whining twat Prince was being during his name change! He attacked Warners by releasing deliberately average albums and generally badmouthing them 4 no good reason!


He just had signed a re-negotiation deal with WB in 1992 which was worth mega millionsm, which is odd as Prince does not sell on the scale of Madonna or Michael Jackson and yet he got a deal nearly as much as theirs! Maybe Prince deliberatelty screwed them which is sad as Warners did tons 4 him!

I think 4 him to make any real money off sales, he had to sell over 5 million of an album to start making profit back! If this figure is roughly true, then Prince obviously thought he could sell this many records everytime and when he didn't (ie the symbol album), he gave up and changed his name blaming WB 4 everything!

It was very dull after a month r so to hear him whining about the record industry, using the race card aswell to blame the industry as a whole! Sorry, but I never felt sorry 4 him and maybe it was all an act, but eventually he lost out and I heard in the end WB bailed him out when he was almost bankcrupt in 1995/6!

Even on the Rave DVD he goes on and on 'bout the record industry, hey, at least George Michael knew when he lost and the same with Michael Jackson (which actually sounded legit 4 a while)

Sorry Prince, but u were a massive knob and whilst I don't mind him doing what he wants, he was in the wrong in my books since the beginning!
[This message was edited Tue Jun 8 4:00:11 2004 by thesexofit]

It was extremely brattish of him - A multi millionaire rich beyond 99.9% of people's wildest dreams, doing his dream job.

There could have been MUCH better ways of handling a record contract dispute, because there was only one person's career who suffered as a result, and that's Prince - No one gave a fluff about WB, a huge faceless multi-national corporation with bigger fish than Prince to serve upto the public.

Worst of all, besides Prince's public image - I think his art suffered terribly, possibly irreversibly.

I don't know, there may have been more 'adult' ways to make a point about record contracts - but writing 'slave' on his face really pushed the dispute into the limelight. You can negotiate all you want in private, but usually you only see results when you get the media involved - that's why we have strikes, to let everyone know there's something wrong going down.

I think Prince did ultimately have an impact - rap/r'n'b acts etc. now know to get the business straight before signing on the dotted line - but at the expense of his own credibility, at least for a while. But I give him kudos for being one of the first big acts to point out the inconsistencies - I like to think he was fighting for all the little fish as much as for himself.

I've never really agreed with this argument that he released substandard material during the dispute - what, you think he went out of his way to deliberately make bad records? If he was holding the good stuff back, it never really obviously appeared after the contract - Emancipation was good, but not hugely different in tone to previous records, and Rave? I think the music is too precious to him to not do a good job on it - I actually really like his late 90's output and I know I'm not the only one, it may not be everyone's cup'o'tea but people have different tastes and that just happened to be the style he was into around that time.

thesexofit said:

I just couldn't disagree more. I think one of the things people don't give Prince credit for is that he probably went after WB in every way possible before writing 'Slave' on his face. I am always amazed by how some people call him a brat for doing this. I mean it is as if people are completely unaware of the revolution that he helped start with that act. So I guess where you see brat I see visionary.
When you look at how WB is treating Madonna right now can you really still fall into the line of thought that WB was right and Prince did everything wrong? Also it concerns me that non-whites always accuse African Americans and other non whites of using the 'race card' like we invented the racism that we are confronted with daily. I say if you don't want us to use the 'race card' then stop and then help tear down the walls of RACISM that we are confronted with daily.
Also Prince has sold over 100million albums. When he was with Warners I think he averaged about 3 million an album and I don't know for sure the world figures however that is pretty big sales and that does warrent the type of deal that Warners gave him at the time. I think there is a lot of politics behind sales and I would not be so sure Warners didn't go back on some of the deal to prompt Prince to start showing out if you will.
For example you can't tell me Sony backed 'Invincible' like they have other MJ albums even still it was a huge seller around the world. WB now is trying to get rid of Madonna but strangely enough they want to keep Maverick records which as they say is not doing so well. If that is the case why keep it? I mean can't you at the very least give some of these names the benefit of the doubt? I can. I think Sony in MJ's case want's that all important Beetles catalouge. I think WB knowing that they will have to pay Madonna is trying to let her go but keep her very lucrative company.
Also look at how WB is whoring themselves and the Prince catalouge now that Prince is hot again. Yes this is good business but this also shows you that they are opportunist. When it works for them then they move, at the very least Prince acted in the same way towards them and therefore imo is no more at fault then they are.
Peace

I understand him...I'm a pharmacist and I used 2 work in a big pharmacy net. I had a huge salary compared 2 others pharmacists. But sometimes I had 2 act against some of my principles in favour 2 the company's earnings. Well, my great interest in my profession is provide pharmaceutical care 2 people...obvious I need money as everyone else, but I just couldn't push medicines upon people, make them buy some that wasn't even necesaary 4 them...This is a big lobby that the major laboratories created...2 day we have a lot of medicines in the market that are just fillers, and I don't agree with that. But there I had 2 do as they wanted, I was not FREE 2 act under the pharmaceutical ethics code, that says that people's health and care must be my main concern... as I promised when I graduated
So I left that job and I started my own business...I went through some hard times...but never regret 2 leave that job...even the worst times...now I have my own Pharmacy...and I'm makin money doing my work honestly..

nope.

if you look at it from a "there is no such thing as bad publicity" standpoint, this stunt was successful.

I didn't get it @ the time but in the end I think it made sense. The man ain't never been subtle about anything...

People misconstrue this. Prince wasn't saying he was a slave to WB. He was a slave to the music business in general, and the way things were ran at the time. Sure, he could have just been a good little soldier and whistled along while he did whatever WB wanted. But I admire him for taking a stand for what he believed in. It took balls. The same stuff that Don Henley and Courtney Love keep complaining about today, Prince was pointing out back in '93. The interesting thing to me is, NOBODY had his back. He fought his fight alone, and is still here. Some of us may think it's cool to say "ah, Prince was a spoiled rich brat", but even if you're rich, you should speak up if you believe you're being treated unfairly. None of us know everything that went on behind the scenes. It was just as easy for WB to make themselves look like a victim ("look at that, he frickin' wrote slave on his face!") as well. Whether we agree with it or not, this episode gave us all a bit of an education on the music business, and also forced some of us to ask ourselves profound questions about where our priorities are regarding art and business.

prince is a bitch when it comes to stuff like this. it's just business. he signed the contract with
WB. he knew WB would get intellectual property rights over prince's work. prince turned over his
masters by signing the contract. he knew the consequences so why bitch about it later? he
made that "mistake"..

i like prince's lease proposal though (don't know if it's actually his idea, but still). this way
every artist stays in control of their own work, but gives others (i.e. labels) the opportunity to
lease that work for whatever use granted.

CalhounSq said:

No, just occassionally cryptic and confusing!!

metalorange said:

No, I think lacking proper management, and occupying his time and mind with these contractual disputes led to him making/releasing some music of real poor quality (which is an opinion).

To this day I won't leave the house before scrawling 'SLAVE' on my cheek.

Nah I didnt agree - the little bugger was getting paid shit loads for doing something he loved doing and willingly agreed to....doesnt sound like any slavery I know

chiltonmusic said:

If Prince signed a contract, then he deserves what he gets! I sign a contract 4 my job, I do want more money and better conditions but I put up with it or try and find something else! It is similar case with prince, except he was given millions and a nice contract that he organised! He agreed to it!

If a painter desides to sell his work at an art gallery and it gets sold, painter gets money and it is no longer the painters property, u c my point? p a visionary?

Oh and that racecard thing! Never had p used this UNTIL the slave thing! I think it was another excuse to make WB look bad! P was just jumping on the bandwagon when in his case, he was being treated fairly by any colour standards! Again, he knew what he was in for, as he organised the terms and conditions, which alot of people cannot do!

The MJ thing could be legit though....funny how he never mentioned it after a few months?
[This message was edited Tue Jun 8 9:22:35 2004 by thesexofit]

thesexofit said:

Sounds like a personal problem.


The fact of the matter is that everytime this part of Prince's history comes up all you can do is talk about one side of the story, the only side you know. If you know for a fact that he attacked and badmouthed them "for no good reason," why not tell us the entire story that involves every action and reaction on Warner Bros. part in this drama? Everything on their side was above board, and on the up-and-up, right? A successful company that granted this man as a teen such creative control couldn't have done anything wrong, right?

The Warner execs that Prince battled with were not the same people who were there earlier in his heyday. There was such turmoil at one point that some of these executives even came to (physical) blows among themselves at the time - that part had nothing to do with Prince's situation.

Too many people like to spout off while only knowing part of one side of the story just because Prince made himself into an exhibitionist about it and released some maddeningly inconsistent music. I think everybody should react this way when somebody has a falling out with their employer and attacks that innocent company by badmouthing them... knowing all the facts BE DAMNED.

Sorry but he (in 1992) just signed a new contract, then he thought,"I know what, lets screw them 4 giving me even more money because my last album didn't sell as much as i thought it would"! Damn if u don't like ur contract, get out of it (which took him a long time 'cause of the album deal) but as he was stuck at this horrible multi million contract with such nasty terms and condictions, he gave 'em hell!

Also his failed label he blamed on everyone BUT himself! Prince never blames himself 4 anything! If he didn't like the new contract, fine, but blame urself not the co. u agreed to sign with.....

Uh huh. Just as I said, you know part of one side, and can't tell us anything else about the entire story....

Why is "slave" just a Black thing?

Whites are just as enslaved as Blacks in America .

They want you to be consumers.They "pushed" the SUV's to people and then jacked gas up and then blamed it on the WAR.They want you to have 8 credit cards so you will pay for 25 years trying to pay it off.Anytime you owe someone you are a slave to them.

Any of you notice how people just fall in line to whatever the political agenda is ?
Where is the 911 commission today ? Oh I forgot God(Reagan) died Sunday so I have to watch it on TV.

What happened when in 1996 when the TRUTH about the CIA/Drug scandal was breaking .Monica's BJs became famous.

WAKE UP !

Another thing about the WB thing.

It's mighty Damn funny to me that right after Prince signed the contract his sales started falling.The contract would bear fruit after certain sales criteria were met. The promotion of the records stopped .Prince was put in the Black music division ,A division that had not made a profit for a couple of years. Why?

People one thing you have got to realize is that if the company does not want you to have a #1 record you will not have one.

thesexofit said:

Damn, why is this even being discussed? Prince got what he wanted. He has total control over his music and it is successful. Bringing this up now is like saying "Yeah Prince you won, but you acted like an ass to get it". I understood then what he was doing and I agreed with it. It was a little extreme, but maybe he felt that was what he needed to do.

I ask again, Why are we even talking about this?

thesexofit said:

Well I agree that Prince never used the race card thing in the past but that does not mean that it was not legit. On HBO this month there is a movie called 'Somthing the Lord Made' Mos Def stars in it. Anyway Mos Def's character was treated well for a black man back in those days but he still was not being treated equal. When he mentioned this he was brushed aside as being irrational (the race card of its day). Eventually he won out. But the fact that he had to fight for it in the first place is a sad commentary.
I say all that to say this. Prince may not have been aware of how he was being treated until they came to that fight. We all know the history of the record industry and coporations in general. Racism is real. While I do hear and appreciate your skeptism especially in the MJ case (hell I am black and I think I repsonded the way most everyone else did white or black or asian which was bullshit at first.) I think that alot of artist white, black and what have you began to hear Prince's cry and found that they too stood on the common ground.
Yes for sure Prince is a visionary. I mean look at Musicology. Prince has found a way for every act that can't beat Christiana and Britney is sales but can play before a live audience to be more than relevant again. That is bold aggressive vision. Already you see how soundscan, Nielson and Billboard are trying to make sure that does not happen again. I am going to be interested in seeing how acts that would benefit from this approach would respond to even more corporate bullying.
I don't know. I just know that in making a deal with these corporations it is becoming increasingly clear that the artist no matter who or how much stature never win. I mean these are some big ones here Madonna and Micheal Jackson. I am sure you can add Janet Jackson to that list too and maybe one day U2. I just think the writing is on the wall and Prince saw it before everyone else. Also I am waiting for the next artist to do what Prince has done ie Musicology and get all the credit for his idea. You know how they give Madonna all that credit for re-inventing herself and the whole sex thing even though Prince clearly was doing that first.
Peace

Thank you for that post.

Another funny thing is how soundscan and Billboard are trying to keep the Musicology idea from working again.What is it to "them" how an artist gains the sale of an unit.

Why do they not want to see Prince successful ?

Billboard screwed Prince for years. They would not have a Prince song at #1 during SOTT.Hell Purple Rain the single only hit #2 when it was 3 most played song that year.

If it was intended to draw attention, it certainly succeeded. You rarely see an article about him that doesn't mention it.

Sometimes a word is so charged that it's impossible to separate its abstract definition from its historical baggage. "Slave" is like that, and it shouldn't be thrown around lightly. Prince's use of the word bugged the same way that it slightly annoys me when people jokingly call someone a fascist or a Nazi. Whatever the facts of his dispute with WB were or his beef the music business in general was, comparing his situation to slavery bordered on offensive, trivializing the real, ugly history of slavery in America. That he got filthy stinking rich from the business arrangement that "enslaved" him only compounds the offense.

thesexofit said:

No. Not one bit. WB were basically trying to get him to edit his output in the interests of his career (and their profits, obviously). He thought the world really wanted to hear all the crap stuff he released after "Gold Experience" ... It didn't. See sales figures for Rave Un2 and SNOOZE.
[This message was edited Tue Jun 8 11:48:03 2004 by Shapeshifter]

I agree that the way he handled "Musicology" was close to genius, marketing wise, but come on, I know I don't know the whole story but the fact that P wanted us to believe he was a slave and he himself gave no good reason to y was this, then u can c my point!

What were his reasons again? Being black? Come on! Him thinking that every album would be brilliant and sell was his downfall!(Personally symbol album deserved to huge in my book and I dont care about his sales in general)

I do feel angry about this still as he treated us back then in particular like garbage! He gave no real reason y he did what he did! I just wanted to hear if u felt short changed by him too back then and more importantly, did u agree with him?

It is good that he used Sony 4 Musicology though and his internet idea was ahead of it's time, but even that alienated people like me 'cause I did not have internet back when the downloads started!

Oh yeah and the Arista "Rave" thing.....err maybe another time but still simular arrogence their too (thinking album would sell huge and when it didn't he stopped bothering)

thesexofit said:

Actually, if a painter sells his work at a gallery, he still retains the rights to any derivative works (works based on that original-like prints or other reproductions), and the right to recreate the original. The purchaser only gets the original painting, and he may not make copies of it without the owners express permission. The original copyright stays with the creator, unless of course he or she agrees to sell the copyrights to the buyer. The buyers only get the right to sell that one original painting to another party. (This, of course, will not be the case if the creator is an employee who creates the work specifically his or her employer.)

Just thought I would throw a little bit about copyright law into the mix, as it was my favorite subject in law school.

Also,
There are many ways in which one can be a slave. It has little to do with race or economic standing. The word existed prior to 1641 (I believe that's the date when the first African slaves hit America). I don't really recall Prince saying "I'm black and that's why I got the shaft and am therefore a slave." I may be wrong about that, but I don't recall it. I think sometimes people just equate "slave" with "black". Not right.

Though, I do have to say, whoever Prince had as a lawyer at that time helped WB screw him royally. I would never have let a client of mine, particularly not an artist of Prince's magnitude, sign something that would relinquish his control. He had way too much leverage at the time to get into this kind of agreement. But, in a way I don't blame him for signing something and being surprised by its true meaning. If you ever read one of these contracts, your first question will be..."what the hell does all this mean?" At least that's how I feel sometimes.

S

Several years ago the late great Barry White was interviewed on BET .This was during the time of Practice What You Preach. And Donnie Simpson asked Barry did he think that this record would be such a smash. Barry told him that the previous record was better than this album and he was still thinkiing this to be true although it did not sell 300,000 copies. Barry ended this part of the interview by saying that ..."if the record company does not want you to have a #1 hit you will not have one."

That being said many of you do not understand that most of what you think is a hit is exactly the result of payola, clever marketing, and video channels playing your video.None of those things have anything to do with the quality of the music .Prince's mid nineties output certainly does not match the mid to late eighties music, but it is not as bad as many would say it is.Any one of those records if they had the promotion of Musicology would be hits.Regardless of the quality of the music .

If you need proof just turn on MTV,BET and watch for a couple of minutes.

Damn I forgot music is so bad now they dont even play videos anymore.

NouveauDance said:

Exactly. He did it to himself. And he knew better. You don't sign off for that kind of money and expect no one looking out for it's return.

Though I also think that they should have let him be with his direction. He should have had carte blanche decisions by that time. I can't think of anything he was to release around that time as bad. In fact his ideas were good ones..in retrospect. You can't restrain an artist like that. Sure...maybe it's not your vision when he puts out a cd that doesn't seem to grab the public yet. By the time they notice, he'd be onto something else. All he wanted to do was create

With my Temperment I Probably would Have done The Same thing Prince did. Prince the Rebellious Punk Teenager so to Speak. I do the Same thing I can Go On Forever about stuff. Maybe it wasn't The Best Thing to do or the Wisest but well It's How he Felt and well I Understood .