Well, the dilemna will be that most of Prince's audience doesnt have the musical breadth to appreciate or even know anything about fusion or jazz in general. Prince has been many things in the past: funk, soul, rock, R&B, pop, even folk and carribean music - but with the enlightening Rainbow Children album, Prince forging into new territory with a serious agenda. He surrounded himself with musicians that have the pedigree and chops to play this new kind of music. (Do you think any of those players from the Revolution could have gotten the sound on TRC or Xpectation?).

As Prince grows and matures - and begins to age - his perspective begins to broaden. He has all at once managed to look back (old school funk) and look forward (progressive free form jazz) while maintaining the unique genius that is Prince. For this reason, I submit that Xpectation is one of the most exciting Prince albums for fans that have taken the funky multi colored journey that has been his career since Soft n Wet. Not only is it the first all instrumental Prince album, it shows a true understanding of the jazz genre by an artist that is not consider to be a jazz artist. It shows us yet another level of his musical brilliance that was never revealed before now.

In this way, we - the supporters of independent music - have seen and heard the fruits of his "emancipation" from the industry. We would not have any of this material that Prince gives us if he was still tied to a record company. Let's face it - jazz has never sold alot of records. Jazz enthusiasts and musicians know this. Thus, it truly is more about the music than getting a video in heavy rotation on MTV, a "cash-in on the popularity" movie deal, and knucklheaded hip hop materialism with moral degradation.

Compare NEWS to Weather Report and then go get a Weather Report album - and while youre at it pick up Wayne Shorter and Miles Davis and even Pat Methany. See why the direction that Prince is moving in muscially is one that is quite necessary and timely.

as a huge weather report fan i really appreciate what you are saying. i think that this new direction prince is going in is brilliant and necessary as well.

djdredd said:

Said it before and I'll say it again, Xpectation has earned more rotations in my player in the first six monhs, than any other CD I've ever bought I think.

I am a big jazz fan. I am also a big Prince fan. I appreciate any artist doing something new. I get bored with most srtists that repeat themselves over and over. I have grown tires of most modern music. I have found inspiration in jazz from the mid/late fifties (Davis, Coltrane, Lionel Hampton, Sinatra). I have also found it in old r-n-b and funk (Curtis Mayfiled, Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder). I have not heard Xpectation. I would love to hear it. I like Prince's jazz inspired music. I also love his funk material. I think there is a time and a place for it all. It's depends on the mood. Somedays you feel like wearing blue and somedays you feel like wearing orange. It all has a place in your wardrobe...thes same way this all has a place in your CD case.

-chickenman

LaMont said:

In name only.

He has released other albums which are instrumental only - he's just chosen other guises to do so.Equally, there's a very compelling argument for saying that Prince fails to display a true component of the jazz genre through his compositions and performances in this medium - certainly he can extemporise to his heart's content, particularly surrounded by the calibre of musician to hand in the current line-up. This is particularly evident when the band performs instrumentals live, and Prince is seen to be leading the band. However, there is negligible evidence of Prince's ability to improvise through the creation of musical argument based on an original motif. That doesn't mean to say the music isn't satisfying or entertaining; it just means that it is musically naive to compare Prince's jazz efforts to acknowledged jazz greats.This is a very weak argument. Prince could try to release 'jazz' material on a record label, if the record company believed he would sell. That includes jazz record labels.I have music by all of these artist (except for Pat Methany - I know of the better-known Pat Metheny). To my mind you are comparing jazz in the most part with Prince's jazz-influenced or inspired music. Like his previous instrumental efforts in both 'jazz' and 'neo-classical' composition, they can be interesting attempts, but if he is moving in this direction, then his results to date come across as the work of a day tripper rather than an intrepid explorer.

.
[This message was edited Mon Jul 7 10:13:49 PDT 2003 by langebleu]

Well said !!!

langebleu said:

I said first instrumental Prince album meaning an album which has released with his name on it and was presented as a Prince album; not a Madhouse album. As for th rest of your knit picking and hate, go ahead. Opinions and assholes - we all have them.

langebleu said:

That last sentence of yours is bull!!! Prince is by no means the best at jazz music. But come on, when the structure is obvious, you need to call it what it is. Miles Davis and John Coltrane pissed plenty of "purists" off their "new directions in music" and it took 20 years for it be recognized as classic. All genres of music evolve. Tunes like Xpedition, Letter 4 Miles, Madhouse' One. It's jazz. They weren't attempts. Plain and simple. If I go into the kitchen and throw some shells and cheese and hot sauce into a fucking pot, it may not be Kraft Macaroni and Cheese but it's still fucking Mac 'n fucking cheese. Get off your high horse.

Cheesy edit
[This message was edited Mon Jul 7 10:45:45 PDT 2003 by chickengrease]

LaMont said:

Nit picking aside, I have no hatred towards Prince, the music or your opinion. I just disagree with comparing Prince's jazz-influenced work with jazz - I don't hear any musical arguments when he improvises on a theme in the way that jazz artists such as Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Herbie Hancock et al compose and play. I'd be interested to learn of pieces where you think he has achieved this musically.

LaMont said:

Lamont, you're absolutely right. I completely agree with you. Take a bow! Truer, wiser and more accurate words have rarely been spoken - or written - on this site.

What I want to know is, why did you retire your "FACE" persona?

chickengrease said:

Thanks , chickengrease - someone had to say it.

frankjotzo said:

Who is FACE?

chickengrease said:

I'm not using the term 'attempt' in a pejorative way - Prince uses the term 'new directions in music' and his previously used the term 'experiment' and in this sense I hear him experimenting. My criticism about it being 'jazz' is simply based on his extemporising which I find musically unconvincing. Interesting, entertaining etc.. I couldn't care less what a jazz purist thinks about the stuff.

langebleu said:

Deciding if you are 'convinced' whether you or not you like the output is one thing and I can respect your like or dislike of it. If you aren't 'convinced' that Prince displays so-called true components of jazz without being a jazz musician, then I want some of whatever it is that you're smoking. Prince isn't vocal about it, but you can clearly hear all of the influences he wears on his sleeve when he plays particular instruments. Believe me, I'd like to understand your point of view. So if you could provide examples maybe I could understand more clearly.

I think some people are missing the point when Prince heads in new direction.

I don't care how "professional" Prince is or is not as a jazz musician, the simple fact is, NEWS has the weakest reception of any Prince album to date.

Why?

Because the majority find it boring.

Its easy for the supporters to claim a "higher" knowledge of music. Well done. Move to the front of the class.

The fact of the matter is, compared to some of Prince's previous output, it is weak.

The press tried to compare him to Jimi in the Purple Rain era, and Prince himself did not want to be categorised. Now that he has a jazz feel, the minority fans who like it try to compare him to other great jazz musicans.

Prince trying to make it in jazz, is like Prince trying to be as good as Jimi on guitar. His old skool drive is showing response rather than vision.

You can quote me all the plus signs from NEWS as much as you like. It doesn't change the fact that is it an album that will appeal to a small minority, and therefore, being one of the few recordings in the last five years, will serve as the public view of prince, outside of the internet for years to come.

He is shooting himself in the foot. NEWS is the sort of material he should "give away" to members, not turn into his first retail release in two years.

If he doesn't care about this, why release material in the shops at all? Bad management choices yet again.

What made Prince great?

Prince was never about trying to copy the greats in any genre, its was about tearing up the rule book.

He's simply not doing that at the moment.

I don't see the harm in comparing NEWS to Weather Report, Herbie Hancock and Miles Davis. He's surrounding himself with musicians who are damned good at what they play. The general public only knows Prince for 1999, When Doves Cry and Kiss so of course any instrumental project by Prince is not going to garner a huge reception. I think it's great that for the first time Prince isn't going to hide behind a moniker or a side project to release this kind of stuff. No one complained when Prince copied James Brown and Sly Stone in his previous work? I think some fans are too scared to think outside the purple booty shakin' box.

Prince's last attempt at marketing himself to the masses resulted in Rave Un2 the Joy Fantastic. And that was such a stellar LP wasn't it?

chickengrease said:

Actually, Prince's attempt to rip James off (The Work Pt 1 as an example) is very weak.

Prince doesn't need to rip people off when he is on form.

My music collection is probably more diverse than 99% of people on the org. Either way, than doesn't make NEWS a good album. Again, the supporters try to hide behind pretend musical knowledge, to convince others that NEWS is more than the elevator music it is.

Prince's best instrument is his voice. Many people would agree. How many good Miles albums are there where he doen't play trumpet?

SquirrelMeat said:

Despite how diverse your music collection is, I know that probably 90% of people are fans for Prince the musician rather than Prince the vocalist. And Miles, as great as he was, primarily played trumpet on his recordings. Because he attempted to fuse hip-hop with jazz tracks did that make the Doo-Bop album inferior to Kind of Blue? Personally I prefer Kind of Blue, but that doesn't make Doo-Bop a bad album or a bad choice. It was all about a musician expanding beyond his classified genre. After 25 years of music, what exactly is Prince's "form". The only pattern that he's stuck with over the years other than being a secluded hermit is being indecisive. If someone doesn't like NEWS I can respect that. I'm not trying to force it in anyone's ears. But if your rationale is that NEWS isn't worthy of release because it will only appeal to a small minority then your music collection probably ain't as diverse as you think it is.

chickengrease said:

I see your point, and in some way I admire him for putting NEWS out as a CD, I just think it the wrong commercial choice (again). At a time when he wants to build the club, on the back of a world tour. He's giving us a disc which 99% of the concert goes will not get.

That doesn't help generate re-newals.

If he wants to break the mold, both musically and commercially, he needs to change his action plan. He's got to get people in, with something exciting, then influence them.

At the moment hes doing neither. He finishes a world tour, where he spent a section of every show promoting the club. The tour comes off the road and the club goes down for the best part of 4 months! Then, after showchasing his many "commercial" talents, the first disc he put out is one than will appeal to few.

I'm hoping that NEWS will grow on me and I'll eat my words, but I have the feeling it will end up in the back of the cupboard, along with Karmasutra. I'll have my Rameau or Mozart over it anyday.

In the meantime, the friend I conviced to join the club will laugh when I tell them to renew. They will say, "What? After that 4 track EP of crap?". I can see it now.

NEWS is growin on me...It's not bad at all! I need 2 absorb some more...I love what I hear!!

"Well, the dilemna will be that most of Prince's audience doesnt have the musical breadth to appreciate or even know anything about fusion or jazz in general."

Maybe, but not me since jazz (included fusion) is my favorite music style along with funk.



"He has all at once managed to look back (old school funk) and look forward (progressive free form jazz)"

??? I would cleraly say he's looking behind, either to 70s jazz-fusion or to old-school funk. He's no longer a forward-looking artist, I would argue since 1988. That does not prevent me from loving much of his music since then, but you have to admit that he is no longer defining the future course of music, unlike many other young artists.



"Not only is (Xpectation) it the first all instrumental Prince album, it shows a true understanding of the jazz genre by an artist that is not consider to be a jazz artist."

Certainly true, but that makes the album OK, certainly not innovative, original, exciting. Answer is clearly no in my view. Return to Forever was already in the same vein 3 decades ago, and many 70s jazz-fusion albums stand far above Xpectation or News (a few Hancock, McLaughlin, Weather Report, Jaco Pastorius for isntance).

You may argue that Prince has never come first and always been inspired by past artists (James Brown, Sly Stone, Jimi, Santana...), so no big deal here. I would answer that he brought funk/pop/rock to another level, never reached before. He simply never did this with jazz-fusion, probably because -let's face it- this little man also has his limits..



"Compare NEWS to Weather Report and then go get a Weather Report album - and while youre at it pick up Wayne Shorter and Miles Davis and even Pat Methany."

Got that already.



"See why the direction that Prince is moving in muscially is one that is quite necessary and timely."

Well, not really! That was then, this is ... Now.
The latest Roy Hargrove for instance is much more "timely" than News, and is really something you've never really heard before (jazz-neo soul fusion). On a positive note, I found East innovative, original, exciting. But unfortunately that was only 1/4 of the album...

Basically, Lamont, you have not answered to Langebleu's very good arguments. And I'm no jazz purist either.

We're just saying that prince's jazz albums are OK, very good at times, but he remains and will remain in 20 years time far beyond the greatest. This is obviously not true for funk: even though he was inpired by the greatest, he simply transcended this musical genre. Maybe he'll do the same with his "new directions in music", but so far, throughout his career, and even though he's a very good musician, he has not shown his ability to do so.

For all you knuckle heads stuck on the "Prince's Jazz isn't good enough Jazz" vibe, then here's a few ?s for you:

What is Jazz?
What is a Jazz musician?

I think Prince's last two albums are brilliant. If you think otherwise, then so be it!

LaMont said:

ahhh, the old trick of when someone puts together a constructive counter argument you fall back on your trusty friend and insult.

Perhaps you need to realise that a counter-argument does not equal hate.

You must have real social problems in real life LaMont. Do you ever find that people ignore you sometimes (or are they just "haters" ?)

freakyfeet said:

They are haters if they maliciously pursue me to put me down and do not have the afcts right. I didnt insult anyone

DrD said:

I never said he was the greatest. Go back and match langbleu's comments to my actual words. Again, opinions and assholes - we all have them. State your opinion but dont get my words twisted

So if he's not currently into what he's best at, would we agree that hic current move is neither timely nor necessary ?

Prince's jazz gives me the same impression is Miles' 80s pseudo-funk: cool, but far from the best players in the league, and therefore not really necessary. Should keep their creativity for what they do best, not just challenge themselves just for the purpose of challenging themselves...

And even 20 years later, I like Miles' 80s albums but they definitely remain far beyond his best work and far beyond the best albums in this style, includes Prince's ones. The same will happen to prince's jazz albums in 20 years time. They simply have no future as great albums, even though they are fairly good overall.

DrD said:

sorry, but you seem to worry a little too much about posterity..why not enjoy the music now, at this very moment and forget about what people or critics will think of a certain record in 20 years time

it seems quite pointless to me, really

garganta said:

I agree - who said his jazz albums HAD to go down in history as great albums anyway? I do think that they will be remembered as significant milestones to a brilliant career by those who actually know something about the music. But that is my opinion and I am sure some under educated, self important haters will miscontrue my text to serve their own logically inferior arguments.
[This message was edited Tue Jul 8 6:34:26 PDT 2003 by LaMont]

LaMont said:

you're contradicting even yourself now.

you are fully entitled to your opinion however the point is that you seem to take contrary positions to your own as "haters". you've just said than anyone who disagrees with your opinion is under-educated and self important.

how is that allowing free speech and opinion on here ?