Yesterday, I thought I give one of records I least liked another spin - Rave Un2 the Joy Fantastic.

I remember that I had actually quite high hopes back then - with all the teasing and speculation that Prince would use an outside producer, and Clive Davis involved, I thought, hey, maybe this could give his music an interesting new angle...(well we know the "outside" producer was Prince for the TAFKAP... phuey)

Then, when the record dropped, I was really disappointed - it did not do much to me. Of course there were some decent songs on it, but really, nothing earth-shattering, and some songs I found almost unbearable... I liked really only two songs on it, Baby Knows and I love you but I don't trust you anymore, and even these songs are nowhere near my top20 ... I remember thinking - this is it, Prince has lost his creative touch (but thank God I was wrong...)

Having said that, yesterday I put on the reccord again, to see if time has changed anything - but alas, no, to the contrary, still only those two songs, and everything else is Prince by numbers or worse... at least to my ears

What do you all feel about this record - anyone really liking it?

Leave it alone, it's atrocious.

Only "Tangerine", "Man O' War" and "Wherever U Go, Whatever U Do" emerge from this odorless FM sludge.

Even the much vaunted "Strange but True" is in retrospect completely imbecile, trying very hard to be avant-garde, but turning out to be yet another narcissistic wank from bottom-era SKipper.

'GRave Un2 the Joy Fantastic'

MattyJam said:

Loved it then, still love it now.

databank said:

MattyJam said:

Loved it then, still love it now.

Germanegro said:

databank said:

You guys...

All right, I'll give it another try.
I'll inflict myself a week of it to see if it can soften my opinion.

When it comes to commonly scoffed-at albums, I'm all for defending "Chaos & Disorder" and "New Power Soul", which are stronger wines, therefore I'm not sure I'll develop a flair for what tasted (at the time) like watered-down.

I re-listened to the album maybe 10 years ago. It was still a contrived pop mess- just noise. That album sounds like he just mailed it in hoping the guest stars and Clive could bring him back from the dead. I don't plan to give that album a 3rd chance. Besides, if I ever did like it how could I look myself in the mirror? That and smooth jazz should never be acceptable.

I liken it to my rewatching Graffiti Bridge a 2nd time. It still sucked.

[Edited 10/21/25 0:37am]

whodknee said:

I re-listened to the album maybe 10 years ago. It was still a contrived pop mess- just noise. That album sounds like he just mailed it in hoping the guest stars and Clive could bring him back from the dead. I don't plan to give that album a 3rd chance. Besides, if I ever did like it how could I look myself in the mirror? That and smooth jazz should never be acceptable.

I liken it to my rewatching Graffiti Bridge a 2nd time. It still sucked.

[Edited 10/21/25 0:37am]

Honestly, while it used to be commonplace on the Org, this kind of trolling has become much less frequent and we're better off without it.

It's OK to come up with constructive criticism. I could tell you why I believe certain Prince albums or side projects don't work too well IMHO. But I fail to understand why anyone who claims to like an artist's work —hell, even anyone who claims to like music, period— would want to use such harsh language about any of their records. It's simple-minded, plain disrespectful and rather uninformed. The Internet has way too much of this as it is, there's no need to vomit more garbage over humanity's shared database. I'm sure you can do better than this

Why don't y'all love "The Greatest Romance that's ever been sold".

I never hear anyone talk about it ? it's one of my favs from the album.

databank said:

whodknee said:

I re-listened to the album maybe 10 years ago. It was still a contrived pop mess- just noise. That album sounds like he just mailed it in hoping the guest stars and Clive could bring him back from the dead. I don't plan to give that album a 3rd chance. Besides, if I ever did like it how could I look myself in the mirror? That and smooth jazz should never be acceptable.

I liken it to my rewatching Graffiti Bridge a 2nd time. It still sucked.

[Edited 10/21/25 0:37am]

Honestly, while it used to be commonplace on the Org, this kind of trolling has become much less frequent and we're better off without it.

It's OK to come up with constructive criticism. I could tell you why I believe certain Prince albums or side projects don't work too well IMHO. But I fail to understand why anyone who claims to like an artist's work —hell, even anyone who claims to like music, period— would want to use such harsh language about any of their records. It's simple-minded, plain disrespectful and rather uninformed. The Internet has way too much of this as it is, there's no need to vomit more garbage over humanity's shared database. I'm sure you can do better than this

I was exaggerating my dislike of the Rave album (hence the laugh) but I stand by my take. I love jazz but the by-the-numbers instrumentation of smooth jazz irks me on an artistic level even though it's listenable on a basic level. I liken Rave to that. Most of the songs on Rave are the Prince equivalent to smooth jazz. I'm not going to go over them song by song and point out every example. I'm not gonna expend more effort on my critique than Prince did making those songs.

whodknee said:

databank said:

Honestly, while it used to be commonplace on the Org, this kind of trolling has become much less frequent and we're better off without it.

It's OK to come up with constructive criticism. I could tell you why I believe certain Prince albums or side projects don't work too well IMHO. But I fail to understand why anyone who claims to like an artist's work —hell, even anyone who claims to like music, period— would want to use such harsh language about any of their records. It's simple-minded, plain disrespectful and rather uninformed. The Internet has way too much of this as it is, there's no need to vomit more garbage over humanity's shared database. I'm sure you can do better than this

I was exaggerating my dislike of the Rave album (hence the laugh) but I stand by my take. I love jazz but the by-the-numbers instrumentation of smooth jazz irks me on an artistic level even though it's listenable on a basic level. I liken Rave to that. Most of the songs on Rave are the Prince equivalent to smooth jazz. I'm not going to go over them song by song and point out every example. I'm not gonna expend more effort on my critique than Prince did making those songs.

It's OK to dislike Rave (or smooth jazz: I ain't no big fan of the genre myself). I'm just really annoyed when people use harsh language towards works of art and artists. That said, I honestly don't believe Prince put less (or more) effort in this record than in any other: he used to work fast, and I'm pretty sure those songs were just what flowed through him at the time. Admitedly, he wanted to make a commercial and accessible record, but I don't think he recorded any of this more hastily than anything else.

databank said:

MattyJam said:

Not exactly the actions of an artist who put little effort into a piece of work.

It could be argued Prince never, ever, put "little effort" in any of the works he deemed worth of release.

I mean he already put a ton of efforts on masterpieces he let rot in his Vault that thankfully we discovered in almost real time (by 1988 the whole Crystal Ball set and Revolution 85/86 sessions were circulating, with wrong song names, poor audio quality), so moot point dare I say.


The point is that everything in the album screams formula. It's an attempt of copy-pasting Bruce Swedien mannerisms on a Prince album, with very few melodies or concepts that aren't already in the Prince universe (bad-woman-done-me-wrong, some FM Beatles, some electronica, some ballad, some acoustic guitar, some axing).


Even the poor Emancipation, for all its faults, isn't such a commercial sell-out. Choosing a production that adheres strictly to the exact sound of a year is pretty dangerous, your album may sound outdated pretty quickly, it works in AOA because there's an irony in it, a subtitle, through the album Prince shows how much he has influenced modern R'n'B and electro-pop by stealing the era's sonic tricks, but these don't come in the way of good songs, they suit them, and serve an album cohesion and narrative (plus he kicks Daft Punk's asses near the end —ouch!— for good measure).


But on Rave, it's really "let me pass the Linn through some of my DAW plugins", and it's just... Like almost anything Kirk J ever touched. It sounds out of place. It's not that it's bad, it's lukewarm.
Nothing ties the songs together, there's no story. The synths are questionable, all presets, so are the reverbs.


You may have a sentimental attachement to the era depending on what you were doing circa 1998, but that doesn't take away the fact Rave is squeezed in between far better, personal albums.
"She Spoke 2 Me" alone lets Rave in the dust. On the other side of the industrial press, you have TRC, so it's knock-out in seventeen measures. Poor Rave doesn't stand a chance.


I would seriously argue Prince was suffering severe post-depression for thinking The Greatest Romance was anything else than Liberace on Prozac with dying batteries in the pacemaker, with its atrocious sitar gimmick, the dull, never-ending chromatic descent à la "look Ma, I'm not just doing falsetto" (well we all know that but Barry White you ain't, SKipper), the fake arabic bit straight in your face, fader to 11, the "drop out the drums" for no reason on the ear-grating intro of the chorus (yes because, on this frigging song, the chorus has an effin' intro!), the silence for nothing, like teasing for the best chorus in the whole wide world, and then a flat, boring, heard-a-thousand times choral of Princes doing vowels. On three adjacent notes. On patethically navel-enlarging lyrics (the only part of the body this wannabe-sexy song can enlarge, let alone gorge).

I saw a lip-synced television performance of it, I felt wholeheartedly embarassed for the audience.
"Boring Prince", something someone told you, you wouldn't believe them.
I still don't, that's why I'm glad I keep forgetting this small mistep that is Rave in an otherwise otherwordly career. That Rave is, as usual, impeccably executed and performed is just yawn at this point in Prince's career. There's something off about it, like Prince lying to himself he's that kind of pop star. Like "Diamonds and Pearls", only ten times worse.


And Glittery Rasta Smurf? I'm sorry,
Lawd knows I tried, I just can't.

[Edited 10/31/25 14:06pm]

BonnieC said:

it's patchy and too long.

the version I listen to:

1. "Rave Un2 the Joy Fantastic" 4:18

2. "Undisputed" (featuring Chuck D) 4:19

3. "The Greatest Romance Ever Sold" 5:29

4. "Hot Wit U" (featuring Eve) 5:11

5. "So Far, So Pleased" (featuring Gwen Stefani)

6. "Man'O'War" 5:14

7. "Baby Knows" (featuring Sheryl Crow) 3:18

8. "I Love U, but I Don't Trust U Anymore"

9. "Wherever U Go, Whatever U Do" 3:17

10. "Prettyman"

homesquid said:

homesquid said:

MattyJam said:

BonnieC said:

It could be argued Prince never, ever, put "little effort" in any of the works he deemed worth of release.

I mean he already put a ton of efforts on masterpieces he let rot in his Vault that thankfully we discovered in almost real time (by 1988 the whole Crystal Ball set and Revolution 85/86 sessions were circulating, with wrong song names, poor audio quality), so moot point dare I say.


The point is that everything in the album screams formula. It's an attempt of copy-pasting Bruce Swedien mannerisms on a Prince album, with very few melodies or concepts that aren't already in the Prince universe (bad-woman-done-me-wrong, some FM Beatles, some electronica, some ballad, some acoustic guitar, some axing).


Even the poor Emancipation, for all its faults, isn't such a commercial sell-out. Choosing a production that adheres strictly to the exact sound of a year is pretty dangerous, your album may sound outdated pretty quickly, it works in AOA because there's an irony in it, a subtitle, through the album Prince shows how much he has influenced modern R'n'B and electro-pop by stealing the era's sonic tricks, but these don't come in the way of good songs, they suit them, and serve an album cohesion and narrative (plus he kicks Daft Punk's asses near the end —ouch!— for good measure).


But on Rave, it's really "let me pass the Linn through some of my DAW plugins", and it's just... Like almost anything Kirk J ever touched. It sounds out of place. It's not that it's bad, it's lukewarm.
Nothing ties the songs together, there's no story. The synths are questionable, all presets, so are the reverbs.


You may have a sentimental attachement to the era depending on what you were doing circa 1998, but that doesn't take away the fact Rave is squeezed in between far better, personal albums.
"She Spoke 2 Me" alone lets Rave in the dust. On the other side of the industrial press, you have TRC, so it's knock-out in seventeen measures. Poor Rave doesn't stand a chance.


I would seriously argue Prince was suffering severe post-depression for thinking The Greatest Romance was anything else than Liberace on Prozac with dying batteries in the pacemaker, with its atrocious sitar gimmick, the dull, never-ending chromatic descent à la "look Ma, I'm not just doing falsetto" (well we all know that but Barry White you ain't, SKipper), the fake arabic bit straight in your face, fader to 11, the "drop out the drums" for no reason on the ear-grating intro of the chorus (yes because, on this frigging song, the chorus has an effin' intro!), the silence for nothing, like teasing for the best chorus in the whole wide world, and then a flat, boring, heard-a-thousand times choral of Princes doing vowels. On three adjacent notes. On patethically navel-enlarging lyrics (the only part of the body this wannabe-sexy song can enlarge, let alone gorge).

I saw a lip-synced television performance of it, I felt wholeheartedly embarassed for the audience.
"Boring Prince", something someone told you, you wouldn't believe them.
I still don't, that's why I'm glad I keep forgetting this small mistep that is Rave in an otherwise otherwordly career. That Rave is, as usual, impeccably executed and performed is just yawn at this point in Prince's career. There's something off about it, like Prince lying to himself he's that kind of pop star. Like "Diamonds and Pearls", only ten times worse.


And Glittery Rasta Smurf? I'm sorry,
Lawd knows I tried, I just can't.

[Edited 10/31/25 14:06pm]

You fucking love it. To write a diatribe that lengthy, you must secretly love it.

I love the Man's Work for sure.
This is why I don't mince words
when he takes it too easy.

Yet don't go believing I think he doesn't deserve it.
If anyone earned a relaxed back-catalog career,
it's definitely SKipper.

Rave isn't bad, it's harmless.
I'd rather go with bad because a failed experiment
is still an experiment.

But hey, with the proper bong
I can sincerely love all of Mplsound, so...

You wanna know what my problem with Rave is?
Since I was seventeen, to me,
Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic has always been this,
and nothing else. All fifteen minutes of it, and the "No more! No more!" reprise.

You cannot promise me unchained "Positivity" on steroids,
and then deliver ten years later some FM Radio compilation
while having a bad hair year.

[Edited 11/1/25 13:01pm]

BonnieC said:

BonnieC said:

databank said:

whodknee said:

I was exaggerating my dislike of the Rave album (hence the laugh) but I stand by my take. I love jazz but the by-the-numbers instrumentation of smooth jazz irks me on an artistic level even though it's listenable on a basic level. I liken Rave to that. Most of the songs on Rave are the Prince equivalent to smooth jazz. I'm not going to go over them song by song and point out every example. I'm not gonna expend more effort on my critique than Prince did making those songs.

It's OK to dislike Rave (or smooth jazz: I ain't no big fan of the genre myself). I'm just really annoyed when people use harsh language towards works of art and artists. That said, I honestly don't believe Prince put less (or more) effort in this record than in any other: he used to work fast, and I'm pretty sure those songs were just what flowed through him at the time. Admitedly, he wanted to make a commercial and accessible record, but I don't think he recorded any of this more hastily than anything else.

spot on Databank

databank said:

whodknee said:

I was exaggerating my dislike of the Rave album (hence the laugh) but I stand by my take. I love jazz but the by-the-numbers instrumentation of smooth jazz irks me on an artistic level even though it's listenable on a basic level. I liken Rave to that. Most of the songs on Rave are the Prince equivalent to smooth jazz. I'm not going to go over them song by song and point out every example. I'm not gonna expend more effort on my critique than Prince did making those songs.

It's OK to dislike Rave (or smooth jazz: I ain't no big fan of the genre myself). I'm just really annoyed when people use harsh language towards works of art and artists. That said, I honestly don't believe Prince put less (or more) effort in this record than in any other: he used to work fast, and I'm pretty sure those songs were just what flowed through him at the time. Admitedly, he wanted to make a commercial and accessible record, but I don't think he recorded any of this more hastily than anything else.

You're right. The effort (on Prince's part) was there as it always was. The reason for the disconnect with the music is that it wasn't inspired work. There are moments in life when the ideas come to you and the results seemingly pour out of you. Then there are the works that we manufacture and contrive. Rave strikes me as the latter. So in that sense he probably had to work harder on this album than any of his 80's masterpieces. No knock on Prince. Every older artist experiences this- trying to recapture the magic of one's youth.

MattyJam said:

BonnieC said:

I love the Man's Work for sure.
This is why I don't mince words
when he takes it too easy.

Yet don't go believing I think he doesn't deserve it.
If anyone earned a relaxed back-catalog career,
it's definitely SKipper.

Rave isn't bad, it's harmless.
I'd rather go with bad because a failed experiment
is still an experiment.

But hey, with the proper bong
I can sincerely love all of Mplsound, so...

You wanna know what my problem with Rave is?
Since I was seventeen, to me,
Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic has always been this,
and nothing else. All fifteen minutes of it, and the "No more! No more!" reprise.

You cannot promise me unchained "Positivity" on steroids,
and then deliver ten years later some FM Radio compilation
while having a bad hair year.

[Edited 11/1/25 13:01pm]

It's funny how you constantly accuse the album of being FM radio sludge, but list Wherever U Go as your favourite cut, which, along with So Far So Pleased, is arguably the most MOR adult contemporary FM sludge on the record. You say it's a sellout, but I couldn't imagine the title track or Undisputed or Strange But True, Tangerine, Prettyman or Christ, even Everyday Is A Winding Road being played on any mainstream radio back then. A lot of your criticisms just sound like the ramblings of a disenchanted fan, not actual valid musical critiques. I mean, criticising TGRES for having a chromatic lead line? Someone alert the church elders! And the Barry White thing, I giggled, but only cuz it was so absurd.

Y'all two--reminds me a bit of pre-2016 days!

ShellyMcG said:

BonnieC said:

I love the Man's Work for sure.
This is why I don't mince words
when he takes it too easy.

Yet don't go believing I think he doesn't deserve it.
If anyone earned a relaxed back-catalog career,
it's definitely SKipper.

Rave isn't bad, it's harmless.
I'd rather go with bad because a failed experiment
is still an experiment.

But hey, with the proper bong
I can sincerely love all of Mplsound, so...

You wanna know what my problem with Rave is?
Since I was seventeen, to me,
Rave Un2 The Joy Fantastic has always been this,
and nothing else. All fifteen minutes of it, and the "No more! No more!" reprise.

You cannot promise me unchained "Positivity" on steroids,
and then deliver ten years later some FM Radio compilation
while having a bad hair year.

[Edited 11/1/25 13:01pm]

Why do you keep calling him Skipper?

Once upon a time--in childhood, I think--Prince had that as a nickname. IMHO, BonnieC just likes to refer him as that in his own fan-affectionate way. Anyone can correct me if Im wrong.

whodknee said:

databank said:

It's OK to dislike Rave (or smooth jazz: I ain't no big fan of the genre myself). I'm just really annoyed when people use harsh language towards works of art and artists. That said, I honestly don't believe Prince put less (or more) effort in this record than in any other: he used to work fast, and I'm pretty sure those songs were just what flowed through him at the time. Admitedly, he wanted to make a commercial and accessible record, but I don't think he recorded any of this more hastily than anything else.

You're right. The effort (on Prince's part) was there as it always was. The reason for the disconnect with the music is that it wasn't inspired work. There are moments in life when the ideas come to you and the results seemingly pour out of you. Then there are the works that we manufacture and contrive. Rave strikes me as the latter. So in that sense he probably had to work harder on this album than any of his 80's masterpieces. No knock on Prince. Every older artist experiences this- trying to recapture the magic of one's youth.

Just a general comment in response to the spirit of the dialogue, my take also is that the album is not such an "inspired" project as Lovesexy or Purple Rain, but did/does a musical work need to be like that all of the time in the span of one's work?

>

I think that Prince generated his songwriting and music from within the aura of his life at-the-moment, even when tinkering with older songs. I wouldn't imagine that he was tempted to pursue the "youthful magic"--rather, instead, been inspired toward exploring the ranges of production values and capturing a new band sound during the times he would replace his personnel.

Germanegro said:

whodknee said:

You're right. The effort (on Prince's part) was there as it always was. The reason for the disconnect with the music is that it wasn't inspired work. There are moments in life when the ideas come to you and the results seemingly pour out of you. Then there are the works that we manufacture and contrive. Rave strikes me as the latter. So in that sense he probably had to work harder on this album than any of his 80's masterpieces. No knock on Prince. Every older artist experiences this- trying to recapture the magic of one's youth.

Just a general comment in response to the spirit of the dialogue, my take also is that the album is not such an "inspired" project as Lovesexy or Purple Rain, but did/does a musical work need to be like that all of the time in the span of one's work?

>

I think that Prince generated his songwriting and music from within the aura of his life at-the-moment, even when tinkering with older songs. I wouldn't imagine that he was tempted to pursue the "youthful magic"--rather, instead, been inspired toward exploring the ranges of production values and capturing a new band sound during the times he would replace his personnel.

nicely put

Germanegro said:

whodknee said:

You're right. The effort (on Prince's part) was there as it always was. The reason for the disconnect with the music is that it wasn't inspired work. There are moments in life when the ideas come to you and the results seemingly pour out of you. Then there are the works that we manufacture and contrive. Rave strikes me as the latter. So in that sense he probably had to work harder on this album than any of his 80's masterpieces. No knock on Prince. Every older artist experiences this- trying to recapture the magic of one's youth.

Just a general comment in response to the spirit of the dialogue, my take also is that the album is not such an "inspired" project as Lovesexy or Purple Rain, but did/does a musical work need to be like that all of the time in the span of one's work?

>

I think that Prince generated his songwriting and music from within the aura of his life at-the-moment, even when tinkering with older songs. I wouldn't imagine that he was tempted to pursue the "youthful magic"--rather, instead, been inspired toward exploring the ranges of production values and capturing a new band sound during the times he would replace his personnel.

For most of his post 80's output I would agree but with this project he seemed to be reaching back to the past rather than for something new. I believe he wanted to reclaim past glory and went about it formulaically- hence all of the guest spots, obvious mix of slow, uptempo and mid-tempo numbers all coupled with heavy promotion. I suspect he was always chasing his past but he usually did it on his own terms as in "check out my new style". Personally, that is what I always admired about him. He didn't always hit but he usually maintained his artistic integrity. That said, I don't think any less of him because he made this album and I don't hate the album itself. Hell, without it we might not have gotten the gems we did later down the road.