A thread to continue the discussion on the unreleased Netflix (Ezra Edelman) documentary.

Part 1 of the thread was here: https://prince.org/msg/7/471387


Link to the Youtube interview with Ezra Edelman: https://www.youtube.com/w...93Y4ECBCeA

Thanks to andrewcherry for the link, dude!!!

The estate is as invested in the myth of Prince as the majority of people on this forum. All of you would rather disregard the fact that PRN wasn't just an extraordinary artist, he was a man who died alone in an elevator.

I remember commenting on a Brownmark interview here, where he recounted that, despite assurances and reassurances from Prince regarding compensation and credit, he was ultimately ripped off when it came to the song 'Kiss.' Practically the whole forum bore down on me for arguing Brownmark's position; insisting, instead, that he should have been grateful for merely having a spot in the shadow of the great man.

Your hysterical shrieks of outrage, eschewing critical thinking skills, are objectively embarassing, but you will get the documentary you, and the estate, deserve. Good for you.

EugeneKnight said:

Comment deleted - l'ange bleu, moderator

Today's eposide of The Daily podcast from the New York Times is about the documentary: https://podcasts.apple.co...698249942/

I appreciate the pros and cons from all the people posting on this, but,
I just don't understand why a real fan wouldn't want to witness Prince with an unbiased view.

It's like a good friend of mine said to me:
"I wish I could listen to music like a non-musician could..."
He's been a drummer for decades.

For me, this documentary would be über-fascinating!!!

djfine said:

Today's eposide of The Daily podcast from the New York Times is about the documentary: https://podcasts.apple.co...698249942/

Thanks for the link!

This is also a must-listen for any real fan!!!

Warning: This episode contains descriptions of child abuse and domestic abuse.

[Edited 3/7/25 17:47pm]

djfine said:

"...genius+drive+trauma..."
That's exactly the point of this film that we should all witness.

If i could be a conspirasy theorist for a second,
i could see this doc go "the black album" way...

Whatever documentary the estate releases, I got full confidence they will do right by Prince by treating his life as a musician and creative force with the full integrity Prince deserves, especially posthumously. It's time to turn the page and keep it moving for all parties involved. Prince's legacy is etched in stone. If I hear one more "this would humanize Prince to the masses"...smh. Like Prince's personal struggles weren't chronicled in countless books, tabloids and public conjecture.

bashraka said:

Whatever documentary the estate releases, I got full confidence they will do right by Prince by treating his life as a musician and creative force with the full integrity Prince deserves

djfine said:

nayroo2002 said:

"...genius+drive+trauma..."
That's exactly the point of this film that we should all witness.

If i could be a conspirasy theorist for a second,
i could see this doc go "the black album" way...

I totally agree. It's also the exact reason why I want to so anxiously to see the uncut version of this film.

-

And I agree again; for sure it will find it's way out some time soon.

Ezra Edelman also is somehow 'open' for more interviews now, which is good news i think.

He's first of all definding his work of art. And, somehow, saying fuck you to MakeMillions, Spicer, LLC and PW's decision.

Ezra said something interesting about Paisley Park (27m18s) :

"...What you see is a museum full of rooms named after albums,rooms full of things, rooms full of outfits, but, ther's really no mention of 'sex', there's really no mention of 'religion', there's like glossy... things, that's being promoted for monetairy gain... (Prince) who wore glitsy outfits and shoes, who made all this work. And all of it is true. But, like it's so much deeper. His struggles between good and evil and himself. The struggle that you see in the music and the art. And then how it played out in his life. It's like... how can you 'not want to tell' that story!..."

-

That is exactly why I want to listen 'more, and again' to his music, see his performances, etc, that I/we already know from the heart. This for me is very important. Not just the superficial enjoying of the music in itself. Indeed I want to hear the drive, the situations in his life that made him write and perform his unique art. Because that's what it is, super unigue! His genius is the only thing we know, and i'm tired of hearing this all the time. Because it is so obvious.

Though it can never be killed or cancelled, only be reinforced in great depth and detailed inner stories. I'm all in for that. Nothing else. Certainly not at my age and day. I'm too old to not care. I wanna know more, to try and paint that imperfect picture of Prince, to understand better how all this wonderful music is meaningful crafted.

Ndorphinmachina said:

djfine said:

Today's eposide of The Daily podcast from the New York Times is about the documentary: https://podcasts.apple.co...698249942/

Nice. I reject their premise that "the vault is basically empty" I don't think any fans considered, even for a moment, That there would be personal/home videos in there. I think we all knew everything in the vault was going to be work related. Perhaps hoping there might be some outtakes, where he was just having a laugh, or messing around in the studio. It was always going to be performance based. As for ex's being erased. That seems common. I don't know anyone who's keeping pictures and videos of their ex. It doesn't seem healthy. Other than that it's not a bad listen.

We have a small bit of that : Nadeera & Prince...

"...What you see is a museum full of rooms named after albums,rooms full of things, rooms full of outfits, but, ther's really no mention of 'sex', there's really no mention of 'religion', there's like glossy... things, that's being promoted for monetairy gain... (Prince) who wore glitsy outfits and shoes, who made all this work. And all of it is true. But, like it's so much deeper. His struggles between good and evil and himself. The struggle that you see in the music and the art. And then how it played out in his life. It's like... how can you 'not want to tell' that story!..."

_

This is 100% false. It makes me question Edelman even more. Take the Paisley Park tour yourself. They talk about Prince's spirituality, his conversion to JW. In the Purple Rain portion of the tour they talk about Darling Nikki, explicit lyrics, Tipper Gore, etc.

-

2ndly, the origins of the tour come from when Prince was alive and what they would talk about during the PP tours during Prince: A Celebration. So, that dictates "what is talked about" quite a bit as well.

[Edited 3/13/25 19:18pm]

skywalker said:

"...What you see is a museum full of rooms named after albums,rooms full of things, rooms full of outfits, but, ther's really no mention of 'sex', there's really no mention of 'religion', there's like glossy... things, that's being promoted for monetairy gain... (Prince) who wore glitsy outfits and shoes, who made all this work. And all of it is true. But, like it's so much deeper. His struggles between good and evil and himself. The struggle that you see in the music and the art. And then how it played out in his life. It's like... how can you 'not want to tell' that story!..."

_

This is 100% false. It makes me question Edelman even more. Take the Paisley Park tour yourself. They talk about Prince's spirituality, his conversion to JW. In the Purple Rain portion of the tour they talk about Darling Nikki, explicit lyrics, Tipper Gore, etc.

-

2ndly, the origins of the tour come from when Prince was alive and what they would talk about during the PP tours during Prince: A Celebration. So, that dictates "what is talked about" quite a bit as well.

[Edited 3/13/25 19:18pm]

I have taken the VIP PP tour 2x times at the Cellies.

2019 (previous Estate): the tour guide did not talk about any of this or maybe it was dependent on the guide.

2023 (McMillions Estate): there was not even a tour guide present

So when did you go, because it seems that they change it up everytime, therefore Ezra could be also right.

Also it is indeed a glossy experience everything seems sanitized to show only the myth and not any struggle P had.

Trufunksoulja said:

skywalker said:

"...What you see is a museum full of rooms named after albums,rooms full of things, rooms full of outfits, but, ther's really no mention of 'sex', there's really no mention of 'religion', there's like glossy... things, that's being promoted for monetairy gain... (Prince) who wore glitsy outfits and shoes, who made all this work. And all of it is true. But, like it's so much deeper. His struggles between good and evil and himself. The struggle that you see in the music and the art. And then how it played out in his life. It's like... how can you 'not want to tell' that story!..."

_

This is 100% false. It makes me question Edelman even more. Take the Paisley Park tour yourself. They talk about Prince's spirituality, his conversion to JW. In the Purple Rain portion of the tour they talk about Darling Nikki, explicit lyrics, Tipper Gore, etc.

-

2ndly, the origins of the tour come from when Prince was alive and what they would talk about during the PP tours during Prince: A Celebration. So, that dictates "what is talked about" quite a bit as well.

[Edited 3/13/25 19:18pm]

I have taken the VIP PP tour 2x times at the Cellies.

2019 (previous Estate): the tour guide did not talk about any of this or maybe it was dependent on the guide.

2023 (McMillions Estate): there was not even a tour guide present

So when did you go, because it seems that they change it up everytime, therefore Ezra could be also right.

Also it is indeed a glossy experience everything seems sanitized to show only the myth and not any struggle P had.

The tours at the celebrations are modified (sped up by shortening the dialog). They actually aren't the standard full blown tour. So, if that's the case....some info might have been left out.

[Edited 3/16/25 17:52pm]

skywalker said:

Trufunksoulja said:

I have taken the VIP PP tour 2x times at the Cellies.

2019 (previous Estate): the tour guide did not talk about any of this or maybe it was dependent on the guide.

2023 (McMillions Estate): there was not even a tour guide present

So when did you go, because it seems that they change it up everytime, therefore Ezra could be also right.

Also it is indeed a glossy experience everything seems sanitized to show only the myth and not any struggle P had.

The tours at the celebrations are modified (sped up by shortening the dialog). They actually aren't the standard full blown tour. So, if that's the case....some info might have been left out.

[Edited 3/16/25 17:52pm]

The fact that the tours are condensed at Celebration, an event that people shell out a ton of money to attend, is downright insulting.

bozojones said:

skywalker said:

The tours at the celebrations are modified (sped up by shortening the dialog). They actually aren't the standard full blown tour. So, if that's the case....some info might have been left out.

[Edited 3/16/25 17:52pm]

The fact that the tours are condensed at Celebration, an event that people shell out a ton of money to attend, is downright insulting.

Condensed isn't quite the right word. Modified would be better.

-

Example: Instead of having the standard tour guide tell you all of the usual tour stuff, the celebration tours often have tour guides in a less prominent role. In their place, you might have one of Prince's former engineers or even former band members tell their own perosnalized stories about working with Prince. So, celebration attendees typically get a tour unlike any other experience they'd have on the standard tours. Thus, the usual dialog of a tour isn't always presented.

[Edited 3/17/25 18:04pm]

skywalker said:

bozojones said:

The fact that the tours are condensed at Celebration, an event that people shell out a ton of money to attend, is downright insulting.

Condensed isn't quite the right word. Modified would be better.

-

Example: Instead of having the standard tour guide tell you all of the usual tour stuff, the celebration tours often have tour guides in a less prominent role. In their place, you might have one of Prince's former engineers or even former band members tell their own perosnalized stories about working with Prince. So, celebration attendees typically get a tour unlike any other experience they'd have on the standard tours. Thus, the usual dialog of a tour isn't always presented.

I am beginning to get an idea that collaborators, or musicians who have played with him, actually have very little to say. Because Prince himself had little to nothing meaningful to say? Is that possible?

How much feeling did Prince (still) have with the real world, beyond that of the music industry he himself made, the one he preferred? His faith largely determined his thinking too, so to speak.

I mean, he rarely had long deep conversations, with... basically nobody, at least not from what we are told by those who worked with him.

All those long interviews with bandmembers, engineers, etc. All these podcasts, they don't bring us all that much and deep, right? Or am I wrong?

How did he worked since the very first time he met Lisa? Prince came in, said nothing, and started playing, demanded high expectations, drilled hours of rehearsals, and that's about it. All fine. Great musical resuts! Sure.

Other than that, he did pretty much everything himself, at least as far as he could. I am really beginning to get the impression that he was even less communicative as he became more famous and deliberately locked himself into his own sort of ‘narrowed’ world of sheer skill, and extraordinary songwriting, for sure.

But still relatively lacking in substance in his lyrics. Especially after his big fame days.

I could be wrong though. What ya'll think?

-

So, to me it seems that a ‘special tour’ in PP by a collaborator or ex-musician, is not exactly that added value we're looking for.I have to be honest, never done a tour, never been there. So i'm wrong in assuming already that! I know.

We've pretty much heard all these people in many podcasts and interviews.
There are only a few people who I really appreciate speaking time and again; Susan Rogers, Peggy McCreary, Eric Leeds, Alan Leeds, The Revolution, Susan Melvoin, Michael Bland, a few 'openminded' engineers, who dare to be critical.

But it seems like we've heard pretty much everything on repeat.

[Edited 3/18/25 9:56am]

Vannormal said:

skywalker said:

Condensed isn't quite the right word. Modified would be better.

-

Example: Instead of having the standard tour guide tell you all of the usual tour stuff, the celebration tours often have tour guides in a less prominent role. In their place, you might have one of Prince's former engineers or even former band members tell their own perosnalized stories about working with Prince. So, celebration attendees typically get a tour unlike any other experience they'd have on the standard tours. Thus, the usual dialog of a tour isn't always presented.

I am beginning to get an idea that collaborators, or musicians who have played with him, actually have very little to say. Because Prince himself had little to nothing meaningful to say? Is that possible?

How much feeling did Prince (still) have with the real world, beyond that of the music industry he himself made, the one he preferred? His faith largely determined his thinking too, so to speak.

I mean, he rarely had long deep conversations, with... basically nobody, at least not from what we are told by those who worked with him.

All those long interviews with bandmembers, engineers, etc. All these podcasts, they don't bring us all that much and deep, right? Or am I wrong?

How did he worked since the very first time he met Lisa? Prince came in, said nothing, and started playing, demanded high expectations, drilled hours of rehearsals, and that's about it. All fine. Great musical resuts! Sure.

Other than that, he did pretty much everything himself, at least as far as he could. I am really beginning to get the impression that he was even less communicative as he became more famous and deliberately locked himself into his own sort of ‘narrowed’ world of sheer skill, and extraordinary songwriting, for sure.

But still relatively lacking in substance in his lyrics. Especially after his big fame days.

I could be wrong though. What ya'll think?

-

So, to me it seems that a ‘special tour’ in PP by a collaborator or ex-musician, is not exactly that added value we're looking for.I have to be honest, never done a tour, never been there. So i'm wrong in assuming already that! I know.

We've pretty much heard all these people in many podcasts and interviews.
There are only a few people who I really appreciate speaking time and again; Susan Rogers, Peggy McCreary, Eric Leeds, Alan Leeds, The Revolution, Susan Melvoin, Michael Bland, a few 'openminded' engineers, who dare to be critical.

But it seems like we've heard pretty much everything on repeat.

[Edited 3/18/25 9:56am]

I will say this: It's something very cool to be in the very space where Prince and the NPG recorded, say part of the Diamonds and Pearls album, and have a member of the NPG who was there explain how/what/why/when part of Diamonds and Pearls was recorded. As a fan, if gave me insight into Prince and his world that I was very grateful for.

skywalker said:

Vannormal said:

I am beginning to get an idea that collaborators, or musicians who have played with him, actually have very little to say. Because Prince himself had little to nothing meaningful to say? Is that possible?

How much feeling did Prince (still) have with the real world, beyond that of the music industry he himself made, the one he preferred? His faith largely determined his thinking too, so to speak.

I mean, he rarely had long deep conversations, with... basically nobody, at least not from what we are told by those who worked with him.

All those long interviews with bandmembers, engineers, etc. All these podcasts, they don't bring us all that much and deep, right? Or am I wrong?

How did he worked since the very first time he met Lisa? Prince came in, said nothing, and started playing, demanded high expectations, drilled hours of rehearsals, and that's about it. All fine. Great musical resuts! Sure.

Other than that, he did pretty much everything himself, at least as far as he could. I am really beginning to get the impression that he was even less communicative as he became more famous and deliberately locked himself into his own sort of ‘narrowed’ world of sheer skill, and extraordinary songwriting, for sure.

But still relatively lacking in substance in his lyrics. Especially after his big fame days.

I could be wrong though. What ya'll think?

-

So, to me it seems that a ‘special tour’ in PP by a collaborator or ex-musician, is not exactly that added value we're looking for.I have to be honest, never done a tour, never been there. So i'm wrong in assuming already that! I know.

We've pretty much heard all these people in many podcasts and interviews.
There are only a few people who I really appreciate speaking time and again; Susan Rogers, Peggy McCreary, Eric Leeds, Alan Leeds, The Revolution, Susan Melvoin, Michael Bland, a few 'openminded' engineers, who dare to be critical.

But it seems like we've heard pretty much everything on repeat.

[Edited 3/18/25 9:56am]

I will say this: It's something very cool to be in the very space where Prince and the NPG recorded, say part of the Diamonds and Pearls album, and have a member of the NPG who was there explain how/what/why/when part of Diamonds and Pearls was recorded. As a fan, if gave me insight into Prince and his world that I was very grateful for.

Obviously very happy for you to have experienced this.

Unfortunately it's one of my least favourable albums and band.

For sure i can relate to the special feeling it must've gave you.

It would be very ungrateful of me to not wish anyone that.

Still I remain with my thoughts that Prince actually didn't share all that much ab out himself and his thoughts on the world or ongoing situations, besides 'everything-music', with those he worked with.

What a strange guy he was. And I fully understand Edelman for being so obsessed with the 'what', the 'why' and mostly the 'who' he really was.

Probably / possibly, Prince didn't know himself all that well too. My guess... He was always searching for answers, even for something he called 'the truth' (which was far from it tbh), having religion be a big part of his return to safe space.

I've tried to understand that whole religious thing, but still can't. It's not 'free', like he so desperately was longing for.

We all know by now he was difficult in opening up, trusting people. He poored it best in some cryptic lyrics, and rarely came to the point of being close to normality... imho of course.

Maybe one day, when the current in charge leave PP, I might go and drive by, or maybe even pop inside. But it's quite a disstance from Brussels.

I also don't want to loose that image I have in my mind of how I see it. Strange huh, I know. Contradictory even. PP always felt to me as if it was/is more of a controle base, a safe modernity, he didn't need to leave. It somehow feels as if it cut him off of the world.

He recorded still a bit here and there outside of it. But the music he made at Sunset Sound and in his own basement, still feel so much more real than the Grafitti Bridge, or D&P albums for example, to me.

Such a pitty he never was able to end his own biography.

I think I'm gonna read it once more. just those few 'real' pages we have.

I'm dwelling off topic...

Vannormal said:

skywalker said:

I will say this: It's something very cool to be in the very space where Prince and the NPG recorded, say part of the Diamonds and Pearls album, and have a member of the NPG who was there explain how/what/why/when part of Diamonds and Pearls was recorded. As a fan, if gave me insight into Prince and his world that I was very grateful for.

Obviously very happy for you to have experienced this.

Unfortunately it's one of my least favourable albums and band.

For sure i can relate to the special feeling it must've gave you.

It would be very ungrateful of me to not wish anyone that.

Still I remain with my thoughts that Prince actually didn't share all that much ab out himself and his thoughts on the world or ongoing situations, besides 'everything-music', with those he worked with.

What a strange guy he was. And I fully understand Edelman for being so obsessed with the 'what', the 'why' and mostly the 'who' he really was.

Probably / possibly, Prince didn't know himself all that well too. My guess... He was always searching for answers, even for something he called 'the truth' (which was far from it tbh), having religion be a big part of his return to safe space.

I've tried to understand that whole religious thing, but still can't. It's not 'free', like he so desperately was longing for.

We all know by now he was difficult in opening up, trusting people. He poored it best in some cryptic lyrics, and rarely came to the point of being close to normality... imho of course.

Maybe one day, when the current in charge leave PP, I might go and drive by, or maybe even pop inside. But it's quite a disstance from Brussels.

I also don't want to loose that image I have in my mind of how I see it. Strange huh, I know. Contradictory even. PP always felt to me as if it was/is more of a controle base, a safe modernity, he didn't need to leave. It somehow feels as if it cut him off of the world.

He recorded still a bit here and there outside of it. But the music he made at Sunset Sound and in his own basement, still feel so much more real than the Grafitti Bridge, or D&P albums for example, to me.

Such a pitty he never was able to end his own biography.

I think I'm gonna read it once more. just those few 'real' pages we have.

I'm dwelling off topic...

I get what you are saying. Essentially, I feel like none of us will ever know the "real" Prince. Fans don't often know the "real" celebrity/artist/athletes they admire. Prince took this to the extreme. Prince was calculated and protective in many ways. Then again... he was often the same as the Prince persona.

-

That said, in Minneapolis....he was often a "regular" guy...for a rock star of his magnitude. He could be seen out an about. Living and working in MN...he was connected to his audience/community in a way that many celebs of his stature aren't.

-

Lastly, while I consider Prince's 80's albums untouchable. I think those early albums are just as much of a projection of his Prince persona (maybe moreso) than the work that came after. Yeah, often he's writing from a "real" place...but he's often playing the part as well.

-

Ultimately, that's part of the genius of Prince. He blurred the lines between his "real self" and his persona. Who is to say which was more "authentic" or not? Certainly not Edelman.

[Edited 3/18/25 16:32pm]

Of course Edelman isn't the one to say what was authentic or not, and I think it was also not his intention. He was trying to look for a guy behind all the mysteries. Nothing wrong with that. Many tried it before him, in books, with shorter docs, even without the possibility to touch his whole vault.

-

Anyways. Edelman, at least for me and I guess i'm not the only one, is the 'asked' one who spend years of his life, making something 'he' thought worth a while.

About a famlus black guy, of which he wasn't even a big fan in the first place. You can kill the maker, but better wait until we ever get to see the 9h uncut product. Of which I'm sure it will be bootlegged, one day. Hopefully around the time the estate releases their own sugar-coated view on an artist they even don't care for all that much.

love2thenines2003 said:

Edelman is right on one big thing...The management of the Estate is a pure mess at this stage...what fabulous time we're living on with... thanks the Estate!

Now that Netflix cancelled the project, he never has to talk about and deal with the estate again. A lot of people can't even balance their checkbook but got so much to say about the administration of a large estate like Prince's. I would love to see how Edelman or anybody else manage the day to day operations of an estate and keep it profitable, maintain overhead, negotiate deals and manage its founder's goals with all the scrutiny in the world.

bashraka said:

love2thenines2003 said:

Edelman is right on one big thing...The management of the Estate is a pure mess at this stage...what fabulous time we're living on with... thanks the Estate!

Now that Netflix cancelled the project, he never has to talk about and deal with the estate again. A lot of people can't even balance their checkbook but got so much to say about the administration of a large estate like Prince's. I would love to see how Edelman or anybody else manage the day to day operations of an estate and keep it profitable, maintain overhead, negotiate deals and manage its founder's goals with all the scrutiny in the world.

Everyone has the right to voice their concerns about a company, and the Estate is no exception.

If something isn't working, we – the people, as Prince said – have the power to stand up and organize.

McMillions took on this role, though no one really knows why. But with leadership comes responsibility, and running any business means facing challenges and scrutiny.

In your opinion, what are the founders' actual goals? Since McMillions took charge, we haven't seen a clear vision or purpose beyond turning the Estate into a PR cash cow.

And let's not overlook the fact that plenty of orgers have shared countless ideas to help make the Estate more profitable. So why not listen to what the fans really wants, which can make the Estate more profitable.

[Edited 3/20/25 8:06am]

bashraka said:

love2thenines2003 said:

Edelman is right on one big thing...The management of the Estate is a pure mess at this stage...what fabulous time we're living on with... thanks the Estate!

Now that Netflix cancelled the project, he never has to talk about and deal with the estate again. A lot of people can't even balance their checkbook but got so much to say about the administration of a large estate like Prince's. I would love to see how Edelman or anybody else manage the day to day operations of an estate and keep it profitable, maintain overhead, negotiate deals and manage its founder's goals with all the scrutiny in the world.

First of all, Edelman or anyone else besides those two Thieves-In-The-Temple boys, have nothing to do with the management of PP.

There is plenty of income from Prince's royalties on his played music. That's already quite a serious base.

Then there's sales of his music, for what it's worth of course.

And there will be various other revenues, obviously from PP visits itself.

Look, otherwise the place would have been shut down a long time ago.

Probably, there's also be some income from the AirB&B Purple Rain House with W&L.... or am I mistaken here?
You don't just have to be able to manage your own checkbook to keep a business like The Estate going. It's not a big company, and his legacy also isn't all that big.

I wonder how many people are working full time for both The Esate LLC and PW, concerning all things Prince.

For sure, there must be quite a bit of money going into maintaining the entire PP complex. It was already in pretty bad shape when Prince moved in.

So be it, they won't be short of anything and the MakeMillions boys will have made this choice for a reason, and apparently kept it up till now, buying out family shares etc.

Still, I'm not an expert, so I better hush down.