TrivialPursuit said:

IanRG said:

No one in their right mind would seek to be involved with MJ after 2001 - Not even Slash by this point.

That's sort of a narrow view, don't ya think? Slash was at the 30th anniversary celebration, as was a gaggle of other celebrities and artists.

When MJ held a charity concert in October 2001 for the 9/11 victims, Backstreet Boys, Slash, Krystal Harris, Huey Lewis and the News, James Brown, Billy Gilman, O-Town, Usher, Christina Milian, Carole King, Al Green, Pink, Bette Midler, CeCe Peniston, Aerosmith, America, P. Diddy, NSYNC, Destiny's Child, Rod Stewart, Goo Goo Dolls, Train, Britney Spears, Mariah Carey, and Mary J. Blige (and more) were all involved. It aired November 1.

There also artists involved for Thriller 25 in 2008, despite the quality of those remixes and tracks.

And a lot of people who were a-list in their field of expertise, were involved in the This Is It comeback residency shows.

Please look at the date that I said - After 2001.

By being after 2001, this is after Slash was criticised by MJ for doing a too long guitar solo ending that incongruous relationship.

This is after the 2001 9/11 concert - you know the one plagued by people and bands not turning up like Mick Jagger and Kiss. The one with the faulty sound equipment that ran out of food and drink. The one that had only two songs by MJ - and one of those was the last gasp of "What More Can I Give" as a sing along - A seriously bad performance that finally killed the song MJ had been trying to release since Rodney King and resulted in this song being basically given away to as a failed download for charities with no real promotion. The one where the only song sung by MJ without support from others was pulled from the TV airing because MJ stuffed up his contractual arrangments.

I can understand why there was no mention of who the artists were who did remixes for what was generally otherwise a re-release of Thriller as Thriller 25 - will.i.am, Kanye West, Akon and Fergie - not people known for being in their right minds.

As to "This Is It" a-listers, these are just contracted fashion designers, choregraphers and a retired bodybuilder - NOT musicians like Prince who would be tainted by involvement with MJ after 2001.

RODSERLING said:

IanRG said:

No one in their right mind would seek to be involved with MJ after 2001 - Not even Slash by this point.

Nonsense. Slash was there in the 2001 MSG concerts.

Which comment is nonsense? The one that is referring to years after 2001. Or the one that confuses 2001 as somehow being after 2001?

[Edited 3/7/24 3:22am]

IanRG said:

"will.i.am, Kanye West, Akon and Fergie - not people known for being in their right minds"

This is brilliant

IanRG said:

Didn't he work with one of the Bee Gees after 2001? I'm genuinely asking because I don't know. But I remember someone telling me he recorded a song or two with Barry(?) Gibb after Invincible was out. Admittedly, I could be wrong.

ShellyMcG said:

Yes, All In Your Name, circa 2002/2003.

There s even a music video :

https://youtu.be/KkvmKpuQ...0kDMMzY0LG

A little perspective:

In 2001, Prince released 'The Rainbow Children' and did classy on late nite

In 2001, MJ did a haphazard cameo at the end of an Nsync "Pop" on MTVMA

IanRG said:

How do you Know MJ told him his solo was too long?
It was already too long in the MTV 1995. And why would he have reappeared at the WMCIG concert after the MSG ?
These performances are well-calibrated and rehearsed, and as long as Slash is soloing, at least MJ don't have to perform or even show up, so that's a win situation for him : it filled that very short concert.

RODSERLING said:

ShellyMcG said:

Didn't he work with one of the Bee Gees after 2001? I'm genuinely asking because I don't know. But I remember someone telling me he recorded a song or two with Barry(?) Gibb after Invincible was out. Admittedly, I could be wrong.

Yes, All In Your Name, circa 2002/2003. There s even a music video : https://youtu.be/KkvmKpuQ...0kDMMzY0LG

Excellent example - MJ was such a mess that the song was not released until two years after he died and nine years after it was recorded.

Sure, you could say that Prince wrote and recorded many, many songs that were not released. However the differernce is MJ did not write this, Barry Gibb did. Unlike MJ, Prince continued to release singles and albums of his new songs after 2001. After "Cry" all of MJ's singles were re-hashes except for one R.Kelly written song.

Which btings me back to - despite your claim that in the 2000s "everybody ... would have been all fine with [a MJ/Prince collab] and the reception would have been good", it was never going to happen. MJ was too long past it to and too tainted for this to be a good idea for Prince.

[Edited 3/7/24 13:25pm]

RODSERLING said:

IanRG said:

Which comment is nonsense? The one that is referring to years after 2001. Or the one that confuses 2001 as somehow being after 2001?

[Edited 3/7/24 3:22am]

How do you Know MJ told him his solo was too long? It was already too long in the MTV 1995. And why would he have reappeared at the WMCIG concert after the MSG ? These performances are well-calibrated and rehearsed, and as long as Slash is soloing, at least MJ don't have to perform or even show up, so that's a win situation for him : it filled that very short concert.

This has nothing to do with you confusing "after 2001" with "in 2001".

We "know" that Slash stopped performing with MJ "after 2001" and some tried to write off MJs visible displeasure with Slash as if it was a staged stunt.

Anyway, I always look forward to going to concert of an artist I want to see in the hopes it will be very short and largely filled with a solo by someone else. I hate it when the person I came to see turns up!!!

Why do I think, you should've brushed up on your origami skills? Make each one a swan or something. I wonder what facial expressions she could have gooten doing something random like that.

nayroo2002 said:

I think Invincible is a better album than The Rainbow Children.

IanRG said:

Michael Jackson never really released singles that weren't on albums though. Perhaps that Barry Gibb song would have been on his next album? I don't think it's fair to say that the reason it wasn't released was because MJ was a mess. He recorded a song or two with Freddie Mercury in the 80s that were never released too. And whatever about his personal life it can't be denied that he was thriving, professionally, in the 80s.

And wasn't Michael Jackson working on a new album before he died? Unfortunately MJ wasn't like Prince when it came to frequency of output. He'd only release an album every 5 or 6 years. The big court case after Invincible obviously delayed his next album even further. But there's no doubt in my mind that he would have released another album if he hadn't died and it would have sold like hotcakes. He was still really popular. And if he had been able to fulfil those This Is It concerts then I can think of plenty worse things Prince could have been doing in 2009 than joining MJ on stage as a special guest for one of them.

SpookyPurple said:

Is there a link to this anecdote?

ShellyMcG said:

IanRG said:

Excellent example - MJ was such a mess that the song was not released until two years after he died and nine years after it was recorded.

Sure, you could say that Prince wrote and recorded many, many songs that were not released. However the differernce is MJ did not write this, Barry Gibb did. Unlike MJ, Prince continued to release singles and albums of his new songs after 2001. After "Cry" all of MJ's singles were re-hashes except for one R.Kelly written song.

Which btings me back to - despite your claim that in the 2000s "everybody ... would have been all fine with [a MJ/Prince collab] and the reception would have been good", it was never going to happen. MJ was too long past it to and too tainted for this to be a good idea for Prince.

[Edited 3/7/24 13:25pm]

Michael Jackson never really released singles that weren't on albums though. Perhaps that Barry Gibb song would have been on his next album? I don't think it's fair to say that the reason it wasn't released was because MJ was a mess. He recorded a song or two with Freddie Mercury in the 80s that were never released too. And whatever about his personal life it can't be denied that he was thriving, professionally, in the 80s. And wasn't Michael Jackson working on a new album before he died? Unfortunately MJ wasn't like Prince when it came to frequency of output. He'd only release an album every 5 or 6 years. The big court case after Invincible obviously delayed his next album even further. But there's no doubt in my mind that he would have released another album if he hadn't died and it would have sold like hotcakes. He was still really popular. And if he had been able to fulfil those This Is It concerts then I can think of plenty worse things Prince could have been doing in 2009 than joining MJ on stage as a special guest for one of them.

MJ did release singles for Number Ones and Thriller 25 including that R.Kelly written one - this song was recorded after the Barry Gibb song and it was released the same year it was recorded. There is no reason to assume the Gibb song was ever going to be released by MJ.

Between his, at best, highly suspect relationships with children, the birth and dangling of Blanket, his failed recording contracts that resulted in nothing and his financial collapse, nothing new was going to happen or be released. Sony was just releasing compilations to cover his debts and more and more of his assets were being sold or used in financing debt arrangements. Whilst there was talk about a new album in 2007, by 2009 this was no longer being discussed and "This is it" was presented by MJ as the last thing before his retirement - in his own words “This is it. I will be performing the songs that my fans want to hear. This is the final curtain call. I love you so much.” The plan being he would make enough from the tour to clear his debts and fund him to go back to being a recluse

I cannot think of many worse things for Prince than willingly being tainted by working for MJ as a special guest performer for "This is it". Also, it would not have matched Prince's character.

[Edited 3/11/24 4:20am]

IanRG said:

I mean, you're right. It wouldn't have matched Prince's character. My point was that it's a shame he couldn't put that ego aside for a while to work together. Even if it was just for a one off guest spot at a Michael Jackson concert. Or to give MJ a few minutes onstage during a Prince concert. As it is, the only footage of them on the same stage was that disastrous James Brown concert. You would think that Prince would have wanted to change the narrative a bit by bringing MJ on stage for a bit of a jam or something. Prince regularly brought other people up on stage with him. I can't see how having Michael Jackson there would be a negative.

As for the This Is It concerts being the final project, I have my doubts. A lot of artists have claimed to be set for retirement only to come back again shortly afterwards. I think that was all a ploy to generate ticket sales if I'm honest. If the public think he's retiring, they'll show up just in case they never see him again. He wasn't exactly old when he died and he still had a pretty good voice. He could have easily kept going if he'd been in better health.

ShellyMcG said:

IanRG said:

MJ did release singles for Number Ones and Thriller 25 including that R.Kelly written one - this song was recorded after the Barry Gibb song and it was released the same year it was recorded. There is no reason to assume the Gibb song was ever going to be released by MJ.

Between his, at best, highly suspect relationships with children, the birth and dangling of Blanket, his failed recording contracts that resulted in nothing and his financial collapse, nothing new was going to happen or be released. Sony was just releasing compilations to cover his debts and more and more of his assets were being sold or used in financing debt arrangements. Whilst there was talk about a new album in 2007, by 2009 this was no longer being discussed and "This is it" was presented by MJ as the last thing before his retirement - in his own words “This is it. I will be performing the songs that my fans want to hear. This is the final curtain call. I love you so much.” The plan being he would make enough from the tour to clear his debts and fund him to go back to being a recluse

I cannot think of many worse things for Prince than willingly being tainted by working for MJ as a special guest performer for "This is it". Also, it would not have matched Prince's character.

[Edited 3/11/24 4:20am]

I mean, you're right. It wouldn't have matched Prince's character. My point was that it's a shame he couldn't put that ego aside for a while to work together. Even if it was just for a one off guest spot at a Michael Jackson concert. Or to give MJ a few minutes onstage during a Prince concert. As it is, the only footage of them on the same stage was that disastrous James Brown concert. You would think that Prince would have wanted to change the narrative a bit by bringing MJ on stage for a bit of a jam or something. Prince regularly brought other people up on stage with him. I can't see how having Michael Jackson there would be a negative. As for the This Is It concerts being the final project, I have my doubts. A lot of artists have claimed to be set for retirement only to come back again shortly afterwards. I think that was all a ploy to generate ticket sales if I'm honest. If the public think he's retiring, they'll show up just in case they never see him again. He wasn't exactly old when he died and he still had a pretty good voice. He could have easily kept going if he'd been in better health.

Remember, it did not match MJs character either. When MJ was the big shot with history and Motown cred and Prince the upstart, MJ's ego prevented anything from occurring.

Sure it is possible that, after what would have been a decade of compilations and retrospectives (plus 1 single by R.Kelly), if he had not died , he may have done something after "This is it". However, this is different from regularly performing artists extending their careers by saying this could be the last, KISS style. KISS did 13 major tours since its Farewell tour and had no gap between this tour and their previous tours. MJ did not need to try trick people to come to see him with the threat of retirement as this was a comeback tour - It was already a you have to come and see me because it has been so very, very long tour.

In regard to MJ and Prince, the difference is their history. Even if it was just one song once on stage, all the media and focus would be on the history and not on the current tour or record. It would just dredge up the history between the two and comparisons of things that got media attention - and for Prince, he has nothing to gain and everything to risk by being mentioned with MJ's worst and weirdness.

IanRG said:

Oh I have no doubt that MJ is as much at fault for why a collaboration never happened. And it's a shame that arguably the greatest pop star of all time and a bonafide musical genius couldn't find some common ground for a team up.

Do you think Prince was that bothered by the potential negative media attention teaming up with MJ would bring? Prince was never accused of the kind of things MJ was accused of but he wasn't exactly a PR company's dream client. Knowing what little we know about Prince I can't see a scenario whereby he was worried about negative media attention in being associated with Michael Jackson. I'm sure he had his own reasons for not wanting to work with him but negative media attention was not on that list.

Oh, Shelly.

MJ was always provoking Prince.

MJ wanted Prince to sing on this, MJ wanted Prince to perform on that, MJ was always pushing...

But, when did Prince ever say he wanted an MJ cameo?

That's right! NEVER!!!

ShellyMcG said:

Barry Gibb never got to release the song on his album, because Sony blocked ecery featuring MJ wanted to do.

I don't think MJ would have released another album, had he live 10 more years.

I don't even think he would have released Invincible at all, if Sony weren't pressuring him with giving him deadlines and other contractual threats.
He changed the directions of Invincible too many times, and the songs he eventually released are not even finished.

ShellyMcG said:

IanRG said:

Remember, it did not match MJs character either. When MJ was the big shot with history and Motown cred and Prince the upstart, MJ's ego prevented anything from occurring.

Sure it is possible that, after what would have been a decade of compilations and retrospectives (plus 1 single by R.Kelly), if he had not died , he may have done something after "This is it". However, this is different from regularly performing artists extending their careers by saying this could be the last, KISS style. KISS did 13 major tours since its Farewell tour and had no gap between this tour and their previous tours. MJ did not need to try trick people to come to see him with the threat of retirement as this was a comeback tour - It was already a you have to come and see me because it has been so very, very long tour.

In regard to MJ and Prince, the difference is their history. Even if it was just one song once on stage, all the media and focus would be on the history and not on the current tour or record. It would just dredge up the history between the two and comparisons of things that got media attention - and for Prince, he has nothing to gain and everything to risk by being mentioned with MJ's worst and weirdness.

Oh I have no doubt that MJ is as much at fault for why a collaboration never happened. And it's a shame that arguably the greatest pop star of all time and a bonafide musical genius couldn't find some common ground for a team up. Do you think Prince was that bothered by the potential negative media attention teaming up with MJ would bring? Prince was never accused of the kind of things MJ was accused of but he wasn't exactly a PR company's dream client. Knowing what little we know about Prince I can't see a scenario whereby he was worried about negative media attention in being associated with Michael Jackson. I'm sure he had his own reasons for not wanting to work with him but negative media attention was not on that list.

We are talking about post 2001. Child sex offenses are seen as the worst crimes even by other criminals. As a survivor, myself of such crimes, I know that how MJ's case went is how the vast majority of cases go. There is nothing in the case that proved MJ was any different to other people that have been (falsely or accurately) accused and paid off alleged victims or got off by blaming these children or their family.

Prince had multiple reasons for not wanting to be associated with MJ in addition with above. This starts with how MJ treated him and looked down on him for not having done the time as part of the Motown family.

Being against negative media attention was always high on Prince's list. This is why he shunned interviews, always tried to ensure that his music (including his rights to his music) was the centre of attention, and wrote songs like Controvery. Here he simultaneously played with what (media) people say as part of his game, criticised them for what they want to say and believe, and prayed for them with the Lord's Prayer within that very song.

He was not a PR client's dream client and this can be seen as another reason why he would not want to work with MJ - This would only result in him having to deal with so much non-music related PR. He would not just be able to hire people like Diamonds and Pearls to do the media for him.

[Edited 3/11/24 15:46pm]

IanRG said:

We'll never know the answer to this but I do wonder if Prince regretted not working with MJ after MJ died. He started playing a few Michael Jackson songs in his live shows right? So I don't believe there was any serious bad blood between them. Nor do I think that Prince believed MJ was guilty of any of that stuff. Otherwise he wouldn't have introduced those songs into his setlist.

RODSERLING said:

Those songs aren't finished? They sound pretty finished to me . That's interesting though. I didn't know Sony were pressuring him into releasing Invincible. I'm glad they did though because I really like that album.

ShellyMcG said:

IanRG said:

We are talking about post 2001. Child sex offenses are seen as the worst crimes even by other criminals. As a survivor, myself of such crimes, I know that how MJ's case went is how the vast majority of cases go. There is nothing in the case that proved MJ was any different to other people that have been (falsely or accurately) accused and paid off alleged victims or got off by blaming these children or their family.

Prince had multiple reasons for not wanting to be associated with MJ in addition with above. This starts with how MJ treated him and looked down on him for not having done the time as part of the Motown family.

Being against negative media attention was always high on Prince's list. This is why he shunned interviews, always tried to ensure that his music (including his rights to his music) was the centre of attention, and wrote songs like Controvery. Here he simultaneously played with what (media) people say as part of his game, criticised them for what they want to say and believe, and prayed for them with the Lord's Prayer within that very song.

He was not a PR client's dream client and this can be seen as another reason why he would not want to work with MJ - This would only result in him having to deal with so much non-music related PR. He would not just be able to hire people like Diamonds and Pearls to do the media for him.

[Edited 3/11/24 15:46pm]

We'll never know the answer to this but I do wonder if Prince regretted not working with MJ after MJ died. He started playing a few Michael Jackson songs in his live shows right? So I don't believe there was any serious bad blood between them. Nor do I think that Prince believed MJ was guilty of any of that stuff. Otherwise he wouldn't have introduced those songs into his setlist.

Sure we will never know. However I dont see any indication that Prince regretted not playing with anyone.

Addng a song to a set list is not an indication of presumed innocence. Even after Prince embarrassed himself by falling after he showed his chops to his hero, James Brown, and was mocked for this by MJ, Prince did not waiver in paying homage to James Brown's music throughout his career. Yet Prince would have been aware of James Brown's crimes.

IanRG said:

The difference there is that James Brown was a hero to Prince. Michael Jackson was not. I'm sure Prince would have probably been a fan of the Jackson 5 when he was a kid but I doubt he held MJ in the same esteem as he held James Brown. And like you pointed out earlier, what MJ was accused of was probably worse than what James Brown did. I can't imagine Prince paying tribute to MJ if he believed he was guilty. I'd be disappointed in anyone paying tribute to someone if they believed that person was guilty of those crimes.

I know people compare these two all the time, but I have a hard time envisioning a collaboration. Their greatness was such opposite ends of the spectrum, imo.

I think history is just fine the way it is.

ShellyMcG said:

First the background vocals were not reworked from the demos the producers gave to MJ. Consequently it lacks that "Jackson sound". In the Jerkins productions, MJ did the background vocals, but it was mixed with those of Lashawn Daniels. To me, it kills most of the fun and interest listening to an MJ album, if somebody else do the background vocals.

Butterflies, Breaf Of Dawn and Heaven Can Wait are the most blatant examples. These are taken apart great songs, with great MJ lead vocals. But the background in the chorus are from somebody else's voices, and it gives an impression of a constant duet between MJ and " the unknown rnb singer of the day".
What a shame these great songs weren't recorded by MJ the same way he recorded his previous albums !

Now, let s take some clunkers : this is so obviously not him singing the chorus in Don't Walk Away. That song could have been acceptable if it was written solely by MJ and sang by himself, and not written by four people, with the chorus/climax of the song sang by another unknown rnb singer.
It s like MJ hadn't the time to recorded his voice over the singer demo.
MJ can write solely Speechless, but such a random song needs officially four writers in the room ? What was the point of this?

Privacy cumulates writing and recording problems, not fixed by lack of time, - - - aggressive harmony vocals from Daniels
- MJ calls for Slash, but they couldn't reach him on time (?) so he is replaced by a completely random guy ( not Prince, not Clapton) but a Michael Thompson, an obscure studio guitarist.
- The song ends abruptly, after being stretched to death with like two minutes of terrible "yeah yeah"
- the song was supposed to be about Lady Diana death. Well, who wrote " in that cold winter night", since she died on a summer ? Wasn't " on that cold summer night" more appropriated ?


And on, and on, and on...
And beyond the album, MJ struggle to reunite a creative team to do new and exciting music video. He really didn't know what to do anymore, and had come up with YRMW because he was forced to do something fast. Or else, he would still be working on it
[Edited 3/11/24 21:28pm]

[Edited 3/11/24 21:30pm]

ShellyMcG said:

IanRG said:

Sure we will never know. However I dont see any indication that Prince regretted not playing with anyone.

Addng a song to a set list is not an indication of presumed innocence. Even after Prince embarrassed himself by falling after he showed his chops to his hero, James Brown, and was mocked for this by MJ, Prince did not waiver in paying homage to James Brown's music throughout his career. Yet Prince would have been aware of James Brown's crimes.

The difference there is that James Brown was a hero to Prince. Michael Jackson was not. I'm sure Prince would have probably been a fan of the Jackson 5 when he was a kid but I doubt he held MJ in the same esteem as he held James Brown. And like you pointed out earlier, what MJ was accused of was probably worse than what James Brown did. I can't imagine Prince paying tribute to MJ if he believed he was guilty. I'd be disappointed in anyone paying tribute to someone if they believed that person was guilty of those crimes.

I agree. It reminds me of the adage of never meet you heroes.

pueroda said:

That's exactly the appeal for me. I see them at opposite ends of the musical spectrum. I'd be curious about what it would have sounded like had they met in the middle. It could have been a disaster. It could have been brilliant. It's fun to speculate though.

RODSERLING said:

I didn't know any of that. I knew that it wasn't MJ himself on the background vocals for a lot of songs but I assumed that was a conscious decision. The only real negative about that album for me, and it's a pretty big one, is that there are too many ballads. I think I can count on one hand the amount of Michael Jackson ballads that I actually like. I don't think they were his strong suit. Break Of Dawn being maybe the only one on Invincible I can listen to.

ShellyMcG said:

Yeah, I sort of get what you're saying.

I guess I never really gave it much thought.