2 say that Prince was unique is gospel. But what of his eccentricies otherwise? Are many oddities in the Prince world tolerated because of the man's genius in music and creativity? I 4 one had a quirky aversion 2 the name Camille, of all the names in the universe.... Just me? Is there an actual orgin story behind the name? Any other things out there that was cause 4 pause in the Prince orbit 4 any of U others? like.... I tend 2 like the 2s,the 4s, the Us and whatnot, but I abhor the EYE symbol.

The "eye" thing at least it's like a double-meaning thing that can be interpreted in different ways. Other than maybe the 2, the U and Y and N and R and Nite's just seem like lazy shorthand with no greater metaphorical/literal/double-meaning twist. "Princebonics ahead of the time," only because the English language wouldn't get completely eroded until cell phones. The "eye" wins there, too, because double-entendre emojis are even preferred to simple shorthand now.

[Edited 7/8/23 14:28pm]

Rather repeating what was in the linked thread (which at times lost its way), my take on Camille is:

Prince constantly explored different sounds, music, characters much like Bowie and Madonna. The difference was with Bowie it was defined (especially Ziggy and the Thin White Duke), with Madonna it reflected what took she thought people thought was cool when each album was being put together. With Prince it was everyting all at once - well not quite everything but you know what I mean. Camille was one of many such explorations. These ranged from his other bands - Time through to Third Eye Girl, albums - The Black album vs LoveSexy, The Lotusflow3r triptych to HnR Phase 1 & 2 (and more if he lived). Even his movie characters - they were all difference aspects of Prince.

Seen this way I don't think Camille needs a backstory, just a developing concept in Prince's mind that he had to somehow explain to those who worked with him. Also to mess with interveiwers so he did not have let them into too close his private self. Hence to me it what made Prince Prince and why he could span decades, genres, styles, and the complexity of himself and life in general. So, no pause 4 concern from me.

FrankieCoco1 said:

Before being called out by anyone else for not knowing about Google and the org search box, even though being a member since the early 2000’s, perhaps have a look at this thread and some of the links and comments in it about Prince’s use of the the Camille alter ego and the origins: https://prince.org/msg/7/466084 (Hopefully I’ve not used the amp link!) Good luck with finding out more - all the best with your your new found knowledge. [Edited 7/8/23 12:28pm]

yes i've been around 4 awhile, thanks 4 your reply and the link. I get the idea of the Camille , my post was more along the lines of why the name Camille. It's a rather odd name in my opinion.

It's a pretty popular name in France.

According to Quincy Jones, Camille was the nickname Prince would call Michael Jackson. In what I could only imagine was an attempt to feminize Michael's name. It was 1986 when Michael was recording Bad and wanted Prince to duet on it. When Prince rerecorded the track and sent it back to Michael, I wonder if he put the Camille effect on his voice.

It's kind of strange coincidence that Prince started using the Camille voice, the same year and time frame that MJ asked him to sing "your butt is mine."

LovesexyIsThe1 said:

According to Quincy Jones, Camille was the nickname Prince would call Michael Jackson. In what I could only imagine was an attempt to feminize Michael's name. It was 1986 when Michael was recording Bad and wanted Prince to duet on it. When Prince rerecorded the track and sent it back to Michael, I wonder if he put the Camille effect on his voice.

It's kind of strange coincidence that Prince started using the Camille voice, the same year and time frame that MJ asked him to sing "your butt is mine."

I doubt Quincy Jones' claim because:

1 The first use of the "Camille" voice is 4:37 into AUTOMatic, and then in the Sheila E version of Erotic City in 1984. Admittedly both of these were without this voice being named as the Camille persona.

2 IIWYGF is credited as a Camille track. According to an interview with Susan Rogers in 2015, when she made a mistake with the preamplifier settings when she left Prince to record the voice for this song, Prince said to her "We don’t sound like those other people. We don’t sound like Michael Jackson. We don’t spend all that kind of money. We go fast. We make mistakes."

[Edited 7/10/23 18:13pm]

IanRG said:

LovesexyIsThe1 said:

According to Quincy Jones, Camille was the nickname Prince would call Michael Jackson. In what I could only imagine was an attempt to feminize Michael's name. It was 1986 when Michael was recording Bad and wanted Prince to duet on it. When Prince rerecorded the track and sent it back to Michael, I wonder if he put the Camille effect on his voice.

It's kind of strange coincidence that Prince started using the Camille voice, the same year and time frame that MJ asked him to sing "your butt is mine."

I doubt Quincy Jones' claim because:

1 The first use of the "Camille" voice is 4:37 into AUTOMatic, and then in the Sheila E version of Erotic City in 1984. Admittedly both of these were without this voice being named as the Camille persona.

2 IIWYGF is credited as a Camille track. According to an interview with Susan Rogers in 2015, when she made a mistake with the preamplifier settings when she left Prince to record the voice for this song, Prince said to her "We don’t sound like those other people. We don’t sound like Michael Jackson. We don’t spend all that kind of money. We go fast. We make mistakes."

[Edited 7/10/23 18:13pm]

None of what you wrote disputes Quincy Jones' claim that Prince referred to MJ as Camille. The fact that Prince called him that doesn't necessary mean the voice was supposed to be MJ. You're conflating two different things.

lurker316 said:

IanRG said:

I doubt Quincy Jones' claim because:

1 The first use of the "Camille" voice is 4:37 into AUTOMatic, and then in the Sheila E version of Erotic City in 1984. Admittedly both of these were without this voice being named as the Camille persona.

2 IIWYGF is credited as a Camille track. According to an interview with Susan Rogers in 2015, when she made a mistake with the preamplifier settings when she left Prince to record the voice for this song, Prince said to her "We don’t sound like those other people. We don’t sound like Michael Jackson. We don’t spend all that kind of money. We go fast. We make mistakes."

[Edited 7/10/23 18:13pm]

None of what you wrote disputes Quincy Jones' claim that Prince referred to MJ as Camille. The fact that Prince called him that doesn't necessary mean the voice was supposed to be MJ. You're conflating two different things.

SOmeone explained it that MJ and Prince callong him Camille was about Prince's wordplay to him (not only QJ said Prince called him that) Ca Mille <-> Mi Calle

[Edited 7/11/23 5:20am]

lurker316 said:

IanRG said:

I doubt Quincy Jones' claim because:

1 The first use of the "Camille" voice is 4:37 into AUTOMatic, and then in the Sheila E version of Erotic City in 1984. Admittedly both of these were without this voice being named as the Camille persona.

2 IIWYGF is credited as a Camille track. According to an interview with Susan Rogers in 2015, when she made a mistake with the preamplifier settings when she left Prince to record the voice for this song, Prince said to her "We don’t sound like those other people. We don’t sound like Michael Jackson. We don’t spend all that kind of money. We go fast. We make mistakes."

[Edited 7/10/23 18:13pm]

None of what you wrote disputes Quincy Jones' claim that Prince referred to MJ as Camille. The fact that Prince called him that doesn't necessary mean the voice was supposed to be MJ. You're conflating two different things.

Agreed, which is why I said I only doubt the claim.

Quincy Jones was a professional who worked for MJ. It is well known that he presented the rivalry in a way that supported his employer.

Why the doubt? Does it make sense that name "Camille" was used to mock MJ at the very same time that Prince started calling one of his voices "Camille", created a new persona called "Camille" and was putting together a new record project called "Camille"? Add to this hs comments when recording a Camille track that "We don't sound like Michael Jackson".

[Edited 7/11/23 21:43pm]

JorisE73 said:

lurker316 said:

None of what you wrote disputes Quincy Jones' claim that Prince referred to MJ as Camille. The fact that Prince called him that doesn't necessary mean the voice was supposed to be MJ. You're conflating two different things.

SOmeone explained it that MJ and Prince callong him Camille was about Prince's wordplay to him (not only QJ said Prince called him that) Ca Mille <-> Mi Calle

This seems like a stretch.

It all seems to come from the name on a box Prince gave to MJ. This could just as easily been Prince showing off his latest project. If the Camille album was then released, I don't think people woud be saying that is just Prince's nickname for MJ.

IanRG said:

JorisE73 said:

SOmeone explained it that MJ and Prince callong him Camille was about Prince's wordplay to him (not only QJ said Prince called him that) Ca Mille <-> Mi Calle

This seems like a stretch.

It all seems to come from the name on a box Prince gave to MJ. This could just as easily been Prince showing off his latest project. If the Camille album was then released, I don't think people woud be saying that is just Prince's nickname for MJ.

I don't know. David Z. expalined it that it was just a common wordplay thing Prince did to tease MJ.

JorisE73 said:

IanRG said:

This seems like a stretch.

It all seems to come from the name on a box Prince gave to MJ. This could just as easily been Prince showing off his latest project. If the Camille album was then released, I don't think people woud be saying that is just Prince's nickname for MJ.

I don't know. David Z. expalined it that it was just a common wordplay thing Prince did to tease MJ.

Anything is possible - It is Prince.

Perhaps he chose the name Camille for the persona and the Camille album and then that night used the name to tease MJ rather than other way round?

IanRG said:

Why the doubt? Does it make sense that name "Camille" was used to mock MJ at the very same time that Prince started calling one of his voices "Camille", created a new persona called "Camille" and was putting together a new record project called "Camille"? Add to this hs comments when recording a Camille track that "We don't sound like Michael Jackson".

[Edited 7/11/23 21:43pm]

His quote was clearly relating to recording methods if it was regarding a preamplifier effect. He meant they're not going for that immaculate bubblegum MJ pop production.

That quote has nothing to do with the vocal effect and why he eventually gave the effect a name.

[Edited 7/12/23 6:39am]

WhisperingDandelions said:

IanRG said:

Why the doubt? Does it make sense that name "Camille" was used to mock MJ at the very same time that Prince started calling one of his voices "Camille", created a new persona called "Camille" and was putting together a new record project called "Camille"? Add to this hs comments when recording a Camille track that "We don't sound like Michael Jackson".

[Edited 7/11/23 21:43pm]

His quote was clearly relating to recording methods if it was regarding a preamplifier effect. He meant they're not going for that immaculate bubblegum MJ pop production.

That quote has nothing to do with the vocal effect and why he eventually gave the effect a name.

[Edited 7/12/23 6:39am]

You are making an assumption and you cannot know that the comment has nothing to do with the vocal effect.

The error in the preamp setting was specifically and exclusively made when Prince was laying down the Camille vocal effect in IIWYGF - And Prince dismissed the error with the recording of the vocal effect and said "We don't sound like Micheal Jackson". This puts doubt on there being any pre-existing association between Camille and MJ.

This is bullshit.

"If I Was Your Girlfriend" was accidentally recorded with a "hot mic".

That has nothing to do with the intentional pitch-shifting effect (fairlight) that was used for the vocals.

That was already used for many other songs.

Stop continuing this needless mj vs p crap.

nayroo2002 said:

This is bullshit.

"If I Was Your Girlfriend" was accidentally recorded with a "hot mic".

That has nothing to do with the intentional pitch-shifting effect (fairlight) that was used for the vocals.

That was already used for many other songs.

Stop continuing this needless mj vs p crap.

That is actually my point - I doubt that Prince chose the name Camille for the vocal effect, his new persona and the failed album just to tease MJ.

If you read back you will see that I already said the vocal effect first appeared in AUTOMatic, then in Sheila E's Erotic City and was given a name during the recordings for the Camille album. This was to show there is real distance between Prince using the vocal effect, giving it a name and giving MJ a box. The only reason for raising the error in the voice recording for IIWYGF was because Prince's response to Susan Rogers also distanced the intended vocal effect from sounding like MJ.

Obviously there is more than one stage creating the effect - the voice must be recorded first before being maniputated.

MsNia said:

It's a pretty popular name in France.

And this is key.

Camille is a French sounding name - Prince loved France and did a movie there, etc. Camille is also the name of another movie about a person in France who spent late nights dancing and drinking etc - Camille in the book on which the movie is based is a reference to the coloured flower she would wear when she went out to party. She wore a white camille when she was available and a red one for that time of the month. She spent lavishly on others because she is dieing - a worthy mark for the likes of Christopher Tracy.

The Camille voice is much more like a French woman's voice than MJ's. I much prefer Miles Davis' assessment to Quincy Jones'. From Miles' autobiography: “When he’s singing that funky X-rated shit that he does about sex and women, he’s doing it in a high-pitched voice, in almost a girl’s voice. If I said ‘Fuck you’ to somebody, they would be ready to call the police. But if Prince says it in that girl-like voice he uses, then everybody says it’s cute.”

A key song from the abortive Camille album was IFWYGF - a song about a man who wants to be more like his ex-girlfriend's girfriends so they could get back together. The singing voice, title and chorus were designed to mess with people, be they "Tipper Gore" types or the "perhaps he could be one of us after all" types. This has lead to another French connection. Some believe that Camille is reference to one of the personas of Adélaïde Herculine Barbin, a famous French trans person/hemaphrodite.

[Edited 7/13/23 15:25pm]

IanRG said:

MsNia said:

It's a pretty popular name in France.

And this is key.

Camille is a French sounding name - Prince loved France and did a movie there, etc. Camille is also the name of another movie about a person in France who spent late nights dancing and drinking etc - Camille in the book on which the movie is based is a reference to the coloured flower she would wear when she went out to party. She wore a white camille when she was available and a red one for that time of the month. She spent lavishly on others because she is dieing - a worthy mark for the likes of Christopher Tracy.

The Camille voice is much more like a French woman's voice than MJ's. I much prefer Miles Davis' assessment to Quincy Jones'. From Miles' autobiography: “When he’s singing that funky X-rated shit that he does about sex and women, he’s doing it in a high-pitched voice, in almost a girl’s voice. If I said ‘Fuck you’ to somebody, they would be ready to call the police. But if Prince says it in that girl-like voice he uses, then everybody says it’s cute.”

A key song from the abortive Camille album was IFWYGF - a song about a man who wants to be more like his ex-girlfriend's girfriends so they could get back together. The singing voice, title and chorus were designed to mess with people, be they "Tipper Gore" types or the "perhaps he could be one of us after all" types. This has lead to another French connection. Some believe that Camille is reference to one of the personas of Adélaïde Herculine Barbin, a famous French trans person/hemaphrodite.

[Edited 7/13/23 15:25pm]

But there is no Camille 'voice'. It was always a persona, never a vocal style.

SquirrelMeat said:

IanRG said:

And this is key.

Camille is a French sounding name - Prince loved France and did a movie there, etc. Camille is also the name of another movie about a person in France who spent late nights dancing and drinking etc - Camille in the book on which the movie is based is a reference to the coloured flower she would wear when she went out to party. She wore a white camille when she was available and a red one for that time of the month. She spent lavishly on others because she is dieing - a worthy mark for the likes of Christopher Tracy.

The Camille voice is much more like a French woman's voice than MJ's. I much prefer Miles Davis' assessment to Quincy Jones'. From Miles' autobiography: “When he’s singing that funky X-rated shit that he does about sex and women, he’s doing it in a high-pitched voice, in almost a girl’s voice. If I said ‘Fuck you’ to somebody, they would be ready to call the police. But if Prince says it in that girl-like voice he uses, then everybody says it’s cute.”

A key song from the abortive Camille album was IFWYGF - a song about a man who wants to be more like his ex-girlfriend's girfriends so they could get back together. The singing voice, title and chorus were designed to mess with people, be they "Tipper Gore" types or the "perhaps he could be one of us after all" types. This has lead to another French connection. Some believe that Camille is reference to one of the personas of Adélaïde Herculine Barbin, a famous French trans person/hemaphrodite.

[Edited 7/13/23 15:25pm]

But there is no Camille 'voice'. It was always a persona, never a vocal style.

It started as a vocal effect and became a persona that used it for an album of the same name that was never released.

[Edited 7/13/23 17:16pm]

There's an old thread here on the Org where Neversin debunked the idea that Camille was supposed to be an androgynous or feminine character:

"The dumb idea that "Camille" was Prince's "female side" was decided by some idiot reviewer (with an axe to grind) from some shitty music mag who draw that conclusion because of the track "If I Was Your Girlfriend"; either because he was too dumb to understand the, quite easy to understand and straight forward, meaning of or lyrics to the song or, even dumber, failed to listen to it and formed and uninformed opinion on it...

Dumbass fans with a lack of basic English skills parroted this dumbfuck idea and now decades later this baseless and badly made up idea is still being discussed.."

https://prince.org/msg/7/...&pg=10

[Edited 7/13/23 19:15pm]

lurker316 said:

There's an old thread here on the Org where Neversin debunked the idea that Camille was supposed to be an androgynous or feminine character:

"The dumb idea that "Camille" was Prince's "female side" was decided by some idiot reviewer (with an axe to grind) from some shitty music mag who draw that conclusion because of the track "If I Was Your Girlfriend"; either because he was too dumb to understand the, quite easy to understand and straight forward, meaning of or lyrics to the song or, even dumber, failed to listen to it and formed and uninformed opinion on it...

Dumbass fans with a lack of basic English skills parroted this dumbfuck idea and now decades later this baseless and badly made up idea is still being discussed.."

https://prince.org/msg/7/...&pg=10

[Edited 7/13/23 19:15pm]

Is there any reason we should not instead consider that it is a dumbass position to consider this post as actually debunking anything?

IanRG said:

lurker316 said:

There's an old thread here on the Org where Neversin debunked the idea that Camille was supposed to be an androgynous or feminine character:

"The dumb idea that "Camille" was Prince's "female side" was decided by some idiot reviewer (with an axe to grind) from some shitty music mag who draw that conclusion because of the track "If I Was Your Girlfriend"; either because he was too dumb to understand the, quite easy to understand and straight forward, meaning of or lyrics to the song or, even dumber, failed to listen to it and formed and uninformed opinion on it...

Dumbass fans with a lack of basic English skills parroted this dumbfuck idea and now decades later this baseless and badly made up idea is still being discussed.."

https://prince.org/msg/7/...&pg=10

[Edited 7/13/23 19:15pm]

Is there any reason we should not instead consider that it is a dumbass position to consider this post as actually debunking anything?

Prince never hinted at 'Camille' being a female character and always refered to him as a boy or man, he , him and nowhere as anything female.
Neversin once posted a page of what I assume is the 'Camille' movie/play (from 85 or so) he was writing and Prince described Camille as a psychedlic pimplike man with only gorgeuos women around him to serve him while he was chasing a unreachable woman. People who say Camille is androgynous or even female don't know much and only repeat what someone made up because of a grudge. Typical British Press from those days regardoing anything Prince.

But anyway, in decades time people will proabbly think Prince was secretly a woman because of I wanna be your Lover because he sang with a high voice how he wanted to be someones 'mother and sister too'.

[Edited 7/14/23 1:28am]

JorisE73 said:

IanRG said:

Is there any reason we should not instead consider that it is a dumbass position to consider this post as actually debunking anything?

Prince never hinted at 'Camille' being a female character and always refered to him as a boy or man, he , him and nowhere as anything female.
Neversin once posted a page of what I assume is the 'Camille' movie/play (from 85 or so) he was writing and Prince described Camille as a psychedlic pimplike man with only gorgeuos women around him to serve him while he was chasing a unreachable woman. People who say Camille is androgynous or even female don't know much and only repeat what someone made up because of a grudge. Typical British Press from those days regardoing anything Prince.

But anyway, in decades time people will proabbly think Prince was secretly a woman because of I wanna be your Lover because he sang with a high voice how he wanted to be someones 'mother and sister too'.

[Edited 7/14/23 1:28am]

There is a huge difference between a man ie Prince showing his feminine side to attract women and having a female character. IIWYGF is clearly a man seeking to regain an unreachable woman by being more like that woman's girlfriends. Anyway, his whole history was about dressing up for women in ways that the insecure (or press - not just in the UK) considered not masculine enough.

Was Miles Davis just being a "dumbass Prince fan" when he referred to Prince using a "high pitched voice, in almost a girl's voice"?

[Edited 7/14/23 3:58am]

IanRG said:

JorisE73 said:

Prince never hinted at 'Camille' being a female character and always refered to him as a boy or man, he , him and nowhere as anything female.
Neversin once posted a page of what I assume is the 'Camille' movie/play (from 85 or so) he was writing and Prince described Camille as a psychedlic pimplike man with only gorgeuos women around him to serve him while he was chasing a unreachable woman. People who say Camille is androgynous or even female don't know much and only repeat what someone made up because of a grudge. Typical British Press from those days regardoing anything Prince.

But anyway, in decades time people will proabbly think Prince was secretly a woman because of I wanna be your Lover because he sang with a high voice how he wanted to be someones 'mother and sister too'.

[Edited 7/14/23 1:28am]

There is a huge difference between a man ie Prince showing his feminine side to attract women and having a female character. IIWYGF is clearly a man seeking to regain an unreachable woman by being more like that woman's girlfriends. Anyway, his whole history was about dressing up for women in ways that the insecure (or press - not just in the UK) considered not masculine enough.

Was Miles Davis just being a "dumbass Prince fan" when he referred to Prince using a "high pitched voice, in almost a girl's voice"?

[Edited 7/14/23 3:58am]

I don't know, but there is a different between 'girl-like' and saying he is a woman.

JorisE73 said:

IanRG said:

There is a huge difference between a man ie Prince showing his feminine side to attract women and having a female character. IIWYGF is clearly a man seeking to regain an unreachable woman by being more like that woman's girlfriends. Anyway, his whole history was about dressing up for women in ways that the insecure (or press - not just in the UK) considered not masculine enough.

Was Miles Davis just being a "dumbass Prince fan" when he referred to Prince using a "high pitched voice, in almost a girl's voice"?

[Edited 7/14/23 3:58am]

I don't know, but there is a different between 'girl-like' and saying he is a woman.

Yes - Not dispute about this difference. However, who is saying that using the name Camille is him saying he is a woman?

IanRG said:

JorisE73 said:

I don't know, but there is a different between 'girl-like' and saying he is a woman.

Yes - Not dispute about this difference. However, who is saying that using the name Camille is him saying he is a woman?

Oh i wasn't talking abpout the name 'Camille' just the fact that some people imagine and keep insisting without any proof or evidence that the persona is female.
It's not even a female name and I knew more men named 'Camille' then I knew women named 'Camilla'.

[Edited 7/14/23 6:09am]

JorisE73 said:

IanRG said:

Yes - Not dispute about this difference. However, who is saying that using the name Camille is him saying he is a woman?

Oh i wasn't talking abpout the name 'Camille' just the fact that some people imagine and keep insisting without any proof or evidence that the persona is female.
It's not even a female name and I knew more men named 'Camille' then I knew women named 'Camilla'.

[Edited 7/14/23 6:09am]

Exactly - Camille may sound like a woman's name to the ears of English speaking people but it is not. It is not the name of the woman in the Greta Garbo movie "Camille" based on Dumas' "La Dame aux Camélias" but a reference to her flower. Also, to use modern day terminology, Adélaïde Herculine Barbin was a trans man who used the name Camille as one of his personas.

On a side note: My father in law came from Switzerland in the 1950s - His name was Emile. The immigration officer put down Jim instead to ease confusion on gender and potential for discrimination.

He was going for an androgynous name like the "It's Pat!" character/movie from SNL in the early 90s.

An elaboration/expansion/evolution of the themes/concept found in the lyrics of "Vagina".

[Edited 7/14/23 19:25pm]