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Thread started 02/02/23 7:19pm

paisleyparkgir
l

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It's black history month and ...

I was wondering if it's a reach but to me it seems like while Prince became more pro-black in his later years, it's odd to me that he's never shown public appreaciation to African culture. He seemed to be fascinated with Middle-Eastern culture and Latino culture and I find it odd that as a black person you don't really hear any African influences in his art.

Prove me wrong.

When I say Africa I'm not talking about North African countries. I know he's been to Egypt and Morocco and those countries can be considered arab.

[Edited 2/2/23 19:20pm]

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Reply #1 posted 02/02/23 7:38pm

LoveGalore

Oh Lord.
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Reply #2 posted 02/02/23 7:44pm

purplethunder3
121

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confused

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything." --Plato

https://youtu.be/CVwv9LZMah0
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Reply #3 posted 02/03/23 5:15am

RJOrion

The tribal sounding drum patterns on "When Doves Cry" is very African.

Some of Cat Glover's dancing was African influenced.

And he named an album GOLDNIGGA.


he didnt wear his African influences on his sleeve like Earth Wind & Fire...nor did he need to...besides, when he grew up in Minneapolis in the 60s and 70s, there wasnt much African culture to be exposed to and influenced by, like there is in Minneapolis now
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Reply #4 posted 02/03/23 5:30am

RJOrion

Egyptians are not Arabs...they do speak mostly arabic...but that does not make them Arabs...they are Africans...just like we African descendants here in America speak English, but we are not English....Morroccans are mostly Arabs and Berbers though.
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Reply #5 posted 02/03/23 12:22pm

FrankieCoco1

Lenny Waronker, one of the Warner executives who signed Prince in 1977 tells the story:

“The first time I got a sense of this individual—the real Prince—was when we took him into the studio. I took him in with Russ Titelman, another Warner’s producer, and maybe a couple other guys. We brought him into the studio because we were so curious and he was so interesting, but we didn’t want him to feel like he was auditioning. We just wanted to see him do his thing. He put down a guitar track and got it right. Then he put down the drums—wow. You could just tell—the guitar was locked in, the timing was good, you could tell it was easy for him.

So I naturally was like, this is silly, let’s stop, he can clearly handle it. But he said, “No, let me do a bass overdub.” I said it’s unnecessary and that he could take the tape and leave, but then he did something unusual. He was typically a quiet and reserved guy, very mysterious, and it was the first time I saw any true emotion. He looked at me and said, “No, I need to finish the track” He was very firm about it. I said okay, no problem.

Now at this point we’re standing in a very narrow studio, in a very thin booth. It’s so narrow that you literally had to step over people if you weren’t sitting down. Anyway, he was sitting on the floor and as I’m walking across to talk to the engineer, I step over him and his legs were out. I was halfway through the step when I looked down, he said to me, “Don’t make me black.” It really stunned me. Then he reeled off a bunch of artists from all kinds of different musical backgrounds, whether it was Fleetwood Mac, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, maybe The Beatles, yes Rolling Stones. He just reeled off all these artists so quickly. When an African-American, 18-year-old kid from Minneapolis says something like that, you better pay attention. He covered so much ground musically, and it was a fun ride.”
There may or may not be something coming!
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Reply #6 posted 02/03/23 12:41pm

paisleyparkgir
l

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RJOrion said:

The tribal sounding drum patterns on "When Doves Cry" is very African.

I didn't know that. Good to know.

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Reply #7 posted 02/03/23 12:42pm

paisleyparkgir
l

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FrankieCoco1 said:

Lenny Waronker, one of the Warner executives who signed Prince in 1977 tells the story: “The first time I got a sense of this individual—the real Prince—was when we took him into the studio. I took him in with Russ Titelman, another Warner’s producer, and maybe a couple other guys. We brought him into the studio because we were so curious and he was so interesting, but we didn’t want him to feel like he was auditioning. We just wanted to see him do his thing. He put down a guitar track and got it right. Then he put down the drums—wow. You could just tell—the guitar was locked in, the timing was good, you could tell it was easy for him. So I naturally was like, this is silly, let’s stop, he can clearly handle it. But he said, “No, let me do a bass overdub.” I said it’s unnecessary and that he could take the tape and leave, but then he did something unusual. He was typically a quiet and reserved guy, very mysterious, and it was the first time I saw any true emotion. He looked at me and said, “No, I need to finish the track” He was very firm about it. I said okay, no problem. Now at this point we’re standing in a very narrow studio, in a very thin booth. It’s so narrow that you literally had to step over people if you weren’t sitting down. Anyway, he was sitting on the floor and as I’m walking across to talk to the engineer, I step over him and his legs were out. I was halfway through the step when I looked down, he said to me, “Don’t make me black.” It really stunned me. Then he reeled off a bunch of artists from all kinds of different musical backgrounds, whether it was Fleetwood Mac, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, maybe The Beatles, yes Rolling Stones. He just reeled off all these artists so quickly. When an African-American, 18-year-old kid from Minneapolis says something like that, you better pay attention. He covered so much ground musically, and it was a fun ride.”

I know this story and he "got black" eventually in the 90's though.

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Reply #8 posted 02/03/23 1:10pm

LoveGalore

paisleyparkgirl said:



FrankieCoco1 said:


Lenny Waronker, one of the Warner executives who signed Prince in 1977 tells the story: “The first time I got a sense of this individual—the real Prince—was when we took him into the studio. I took him in with Russ Titelman, another Warner’s producer, and maybe a couple other guys. We brought him into the studio because we were so curious and he was so interesting, but we didn’t want him to feel like he was auditioning. We just wanted to see him do his thing. He put down a guitar track and got it right. Then he put down the drums—wow. You could just tell—the guitar was locked in, the timing was good, you could tell it was easy for him. So I naturally was like, this is silly, let’s stop, he can clearly handle it. But he said, “No, let me do a bass overdub.” I said it’s unnecessary and that he could take the tape and leave, but then he did something unusual. He was typically a quiet and reserved guy, very mysterious, and it was the first time I saw any true emotion. He looked at me and said, “No, I need to finish the track” He was very firm about it. I said okay, no problem. Now at this point we’re standing in a very narrow studio, in a very thin booth. It’s so narrow that you literally had to step over people if you weren’t sitting down. Anyway, he was sitting on the floor and as I’m walking across to talk to the engineer, I step over him and his legs were out. I was halfway through the step when I looked down, he said to me, “Don’t make me black.” It really stunned me. Then he reeled off a bunch of artists from all kinds of different musical backgrounds, whether it was Fleetwood Mac, Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, maybe The Beatles, yes Rolling Stones. He just reeled off all these artists so quickly. When an African-American, 18-year-old kid from Minneapolis says something like that, you better pay attention. He covered so much ground musically, and it was a fun ride.”



I know this story and he "got black" eventually in the 90's though.



Prince was always black. The statement didn't have anything to do with how he made music. It was so that the label didn't just tuck him away on the segregated charts. That is why he references only pop acts. He was making pop music, with influences that were afro-centric.

But let's be clear: ADOS musicians don't have to prove their blackness or their heritage in what they create it in any other way. For many reasons, not the least of which being that ADOS people often have no fucking clue where they are from. And not all black people come from Africa. So there's that.
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Reply #9 posted 02/03/23 1:15pm

paisleyparkgir
l

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LoveGalore said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

I know this story and he "got black" eventually in the 90's though.

And not all black people come from Africa. So there's that.

But the ones in the US are called African-Americans for a reason or ADOS (American descendent of slaves) and we all know that slaves were brought to America from Africa.

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Reply #10 posted 02/03/23 1:20pm

LoveGalore

paisleyparkgirl said:



LoveGalore said:


paisleyparkgirl said:




I know this story and he "got black" eventually in the 90's though.



And not all black people come from Africa. So there's that.


But the ones in the US are called African-Americans for a reason or ADOS (American descendent of slaves) and we all know that slaves were brought to America from Africa.



Slaves were brought to America from a lot of places.
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Reply #11 posted 02/03/23 1:59pm

MrSharon

I'm working,working up a black Sweat
Hey!!
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Reply #12 posted 02/03/23 2:08pm

paisleyparkgir
l

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LoveGalore said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

But the ones in the US are called African-Americans for a reason or ADOS (American descendent of slaves) and we all know that slaves were brought to America from Africa.

Slaves were brought to America from a lot of places.

Besides Africa where else ?

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Reply #13 posted 02/03/23 2:14pm

LoveGalore

paisleyparkgirl said:



LoveGalore said:


paisleyparkgirl said:



But the ones in the US are called African-Americans for a reason or ADOS (American descendent of slaves) and we all know that slaves were brought to America from Africa.



Slaves were brought to America from a lot of places.


Besides Africa where else ?



Google it. Can you address the rest of my post?
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Reply #14 posted 02/03/23 2:28pm

paisleyparkgir
l

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LoveGalore said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

Besides Africa where else ?

Google it. Can you address the rest of my post?

I googled and as I've always known it says West Central Africa.

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Reply #15 posted 02/03/23 2:32pm

FrankieCoco1

In the article below there is this quote,

“Prince was very proudly black and a lot of the music that he played — you’ve got to remember the rock ‘n’ roll that some people said that was the ‘white’ side — no, rock ‘n’ roll was black music. Funk is black music. Ballads is black music,” Hill told the AP. “Prince was playing music that was true to his soul and true to his core.”


https://www.billboard.com...41802/amp/
There may or may not be something coming!
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Reply #16 posted 02/03/23 2:38pm

MrSharon

I think I've heard this before but music has no color
That's just my opinion though
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Reply #17 posted 02/03/23 2:42pm

FrankieCoco1

https://icareifyoulisten....rince/amp/

“His musicianship, song writing, and how he performed were all rooted in his experiences as a Black man.”

“In truth, the single most influential person responsible for exposing a young Prince to the world beyond North Minneapolis was Bernadette Anderson—the mother of Prince’s bassist Andre Cymone, a black woman who took him into her home and raised him beside her six other children.”
There may or may not be something coming!
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Reply #18 posted 02/03/23 2:49pm

LoveGalore

paisleyparkgirl said:



LoveGalore said:


paisleyparkgirl said:



Besides Africa where else ?



Google it. Can you address the rest of my post?



I googled and as I've always known it says West Central Africa.



So what you don't know is anything about black Americans and how to respond to my post, choosing to try to discredit me by applying your one note understanding of what African American encompasses. Prove me wrong.

What is the point of this thread exactly?
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Reply #19 posted 02/03/23 4:51pm

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

prince was an african AMERICAN artist.

yeah theres a certain thread of an african musical sensibility in his music, just cos there is that in AA musical forms like funk, rnb, soul, etc.

but these forms are american really, even if the people creating them have roots in africa.

there was more of a drive to connect with explicit african influences in the 70s, but in the 80s? not so much. and you can hear that in the music

that all said though, i mean, there are many diff ways to connect with african culture and prince was a diasporic african artist.

sure, he didnt tour the continent, or reach out to any african figures or artists, but hey, theres no obligation that just cos youre a black artist, you have to do that.

but the answer is in sign o the times - he says american politicians should spend money at home, not overseas. id say that in part answers your question. i imagine he just didnt feel that connection to african culture. and hey, thats okay. each to their own. i mean, yes he talked a bit about certain north african stuff, he liked some of the clothing, he talked a bit about asian spiritualism (IIRC) or just spiritualism in a general sense, but ultimately, the engagement was quite superficial, no diff from most americans casual engagement with these cultures. he was american through and through.

he supported african american causes, and i think that was enough for him. i dont think he was really looking at those issues as being connected with black issues anywhere else, which is a very american thing.

[Edited 2/3/23 16:53pm]

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Reply #20 posted 02/03/23 4:55pm

paisleyparkgir
l

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LoveGalore said:

paisleyparkgirl said:

I googled and as I've always known it says West Central Africa.

So what you don't know is anything about black Americans and how to respond to my post, choosing to try to discredit me by applying your one note understanding of what African American encompasses. Prove me wrong. What is the point of this thread exactly?

The point is just me observing that it's sad that an African American artist chose to highlight Middle Eastern or Latino culture over African. Doesn't make me love him any less but I just find it a bit sad.

The end.

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Reply #21 posted 02/03/23 5:14pm

LoveGalore

paisleyparkgirl said:



LoveGalore said:


paisleyparkgirl said:




I googled and as I've always known it says West Central Africa.



So what you don't know is anything about black Americans and how to respond to my post, choosing to try to discredit me by applying your one note understanding of what African American encompasses. Prove me wrong. What is the point of this thread exactly?


The point is just me observing that it's sad that an African American artist chose to highlight Middle Eastern or Latino culture over African. Doesn't make me love him any less but I just find it a bit sad.



The end.



It's not sad that Prince didn't want to feel confined to the color of his skin. He discusses this in that MTV interview from 1986.

Further, he already depicted his blackness in his music - literally all of his records from For You and beyond are built on the foundation of black music.

And like many ADOS, Prince didn't really know his African heritage. It's the biggest continent in the world and has dozens of countries with unique cultures among them. He discussed this in Family Name and other mid-career songs.

What kind of showcasing would you expect? As in, what examples are you using as your basis for comparison? I'd reckon most black pop acts from the 60s-80s didn't reflect their direct African heritage. Oftentimes, just making black music was clear enough about where they came from.
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Reply #22 posted 02/03/23 6:03pm

WhisperingDand
elions

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I'm a fan of hispanic comic book writer/cartoonist Jhonen Vasquez, who's got a little Tim Burton-esque penchant for the ghost white aesthetic in a lot of his animations (Invader Zim is probably his most well-known work).


During one of his college lectures someone was like hey dude, why do you never express your culture, showcase your Hispanic roots and Hispanic influence?

And he was look man, by sheer virtue of the fact that I grew up Mexican, lived my life constantly reminded of being Mexican even in the context of this very conversation, my work is inherently Mexican and always permeates with a Mexican unbringing and perspective, even if you personally do not percieve it as being there. Prince's work is inherently black/African even if he doesn't don dashiki and collab with Ladysmith Black Mambazo or integrate more mbira into his arrangements, because he was African-American. It's a tad insulting to imply he somehow wasn't quite black enough to meet your approval, again when observed through your contemporary post-BLM "woke" cultural lens when the era he came up in the late-70s/80s might as well have been a completely different universe to now (re: "don't make me black"), let alone different period in history/culture.


And to be honest this constant positioning yourself as the arbiters of good taste/morality/everything is why old gen thinks new gen needs to be locked in the padded rooms, or at least could stand to stare at themselves in the mirror once in awhile.

How the anti-prejudice/judgmental generation has become maybe the most prejudiced/judgmental generation of all is the real question, and intrinsically more fascinating than determining if a black musician deceased in 2016 is black enough for 2023.

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Reply #23 posted 02/04/23 3:41am

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

Just cos a person is from an ethnic group why does that mean they cant be interested in other cultures,?

His wife was Latina.

Its good he was interested.

Better than being myopic and being like oh look im black so i must only be interested in black stuff.

In fact he did adopt that line of thinking more as he got older. It resulted in quite a few corny things.
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Reply #24 posted 02/05/23 6:48pm

Germanegro

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To the person posing the thought that Prince's Latin- and Middle Eastern-styled music presentations were contrary to a representation of Black African history, understand that Africa--its natives representing the most ancient culture on Earth--has had and maintains a cultural impact not only deep within its own history but far beyond it's vast continent.

>

Nearly all of the so-called "Latin" (or European regional) music coming from the Carribean islands and South American Caribbean-aligned places ie. Panama, Venezuela, Columbia, etc. are largely derived from music created in Africa--one dominant source region being the area around Angola. Music were created by the islanders populated there by the Latins--courtesy of their mercantile and colonial slave trade. These African descendents created new musics derived from the older music that subsequently echoed back and forth between them and Africa.

>

The Middle Eastern music that Prince repped may be more Arabic in origin, but the relatively recent introduction of this style brought forth in the wave of Islamic conquest out of the nomadic tribes of Arabia to Africa across the Sahara and middle continent was predicated by strong African roots through antiquity by the Kush Empire (of present-day Sudanese region) a co-dominant and competitive African kingdom with that of Egypt--BTW, the same Egypt that leant part of its knowledge and culture to the then-relatively-emerging Greeks through their intermediterranean trade.

>

These aspects of "Latin" and Middle Eastern history aren't widely taught, tauted, or observed today. I imagine because they don't align well with today's predominant society's world-view, or perhaps reasoning that the ancient stuff doesn't count, lol.

>

From my 2 viewpoints on history, I'd therefore say that contrary to the OPs opinion, it would actually be practical in the grand scheme of things to consider that Prince was representing Black/African culture through his showcasing of the "Latin" and Middle Eastern music. He didn't need the incorporation of western African garments or instruments to do this. Besides, as others before me have commented--regardless of whichever music he chose to play or matter of attire, etc., nothing changes the fact that it's a Black man from Minnesota USA doing these things and lending his own heritage to the stage through presence alone, and infusing his own flourishes into the music. It's a reasonable thought, don't you think?

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Reply #25 posted 02/06/23 2:29pm

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

Just to start with latin American music, no one would deny the African lineage but to act like thats the sum total of it, nope.
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Reply #26 posted 02/06/23 4:21pm

Germanegro

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funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Just to start with latin American music, no one would deny the African lineage but to act like thats the sum total of it, nope.

yeahthat I can't claim to act like that's the sum total of it. Sure you have some Native Carribbean, European and Asian influences in the Carribbean "Latino" musics--those peoples also inhabit and contribute--but yes mosty African.

nod

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Reply #27 posted 02/06/23 4:29pm

paisleyparkgir
l

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Germanegro said:

nothing changes the fact that it's a Black man from Minnesota USA doing these things and lending his own heritage to the stage through presence alone, and infusing his own flourishes into the music. It's a reasonable thought, don't you think?

He was free to do as he pleased, but from observing many African-American artists like Beyonce or Ciara etc...who have been taking publicized trips to Lagos Nigeria, Ghana and incorporating WEST african sounds into their music, it made me think that it would be nice to see Prince do something like that. Something tells me that later in his life, he was at a place where he could have done this but I guess we'll never know. It's one of those things he didn't HAVE to do, but it would have been nice to see. Just like I was happy to see that he went natural again, or had a black muse (Damaris).

[Edited 2/6/23 16:30pm]

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Reply #28 posted 02/06/23 10:29pm

funkbabyandthe
babysitters

Germanegro said:



funkbabyandthebabysitters said:


Just to start with latin American music, no one would deny the African lineage but to act like thats the sum total of it, nope.

yeahthat I can't claim to act like that's the sum total of it. Sure you have some Native Carribbean, European and Asian influences in the Carribbean "Latino" musics--those peoples also inhabit and contribute--but yes mosty African.


nod


Uhhhh you might be forgetting that the colonisers were Spanish and portugese. Ie theres a reason it doesnt sound just like other African forms or genres. it has influences mainly from those two european countries in addition to the african influences. i mean, listen to a classic brazilian song like alcione's sufoco (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_xOLBPzZ_w) - youre gonna tell me thats '100% african'? (i hate measuring influences like this but you have forced my hand)
[Edited 2/7/23 1:29am]
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Reply #29 posted 02/07/23 11:23am

Germanegro

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funkbabyandthebabysitters:

yes

The "Latino" moniker as applied to the Portuguese, Spanish, and the French people, the slave traders and slaveholders--even Italian ones, if those existed--they and their traditional music are of the Latin origin or in the Spanish, Latino. I do not argue this. However, I beleive that the characterization of the music produced by the African people who were imprisoned by them doesn't deserve or require to be described as the same.

>

I had said in my original explanation that "the music largely derived from music created in Africa--one dominant source region being the area around Angola." I didn't say solely derived. You misinterpreted me there, I think.

>

Let me try to clarify my position. The African captives, in their remote transport and imprisonment, obviously had opportunities to absorb new sounds in their environment to incorporate into their own known music to make new music for their enjoyment. Eventually these forms got back to Africa, and those people learned from that and here you have the genesis of broader mixtures of styles which happens all the time, everywhere. This all makes sense.

>

I get your point about not wanting to forget the Latin influence toward those Caribbean tunes but I don't concede that the incidental inclusion of a traditional Latin sound in these slaves' new music deserves to be labeled under the Latino moniker. To insist that would be a dominant-culture power play, obfuscating the reality of what the music is and thereby propogate confusion about what I feel is better identified as Afro-Caribbean music. The blanket, misdirecting term of Latino discounts that this is new world music made by diasporic Africans.

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