I pushed back against the OP's generalized description--Prince's Latino music style. Maybe it's a subtlety that only the sensitive can feel. I am simply here to say that Africa's influence on the world is alive and its impact is vast.

>

It was grating to me to read both Latino and Middle Eastern styles being called completely disparate from African culture. I think I resloved (for myself at least) the difference in interpreation of "Latino music by Prince" in my other post. I can see where that representation would cause resistance in some corners. Maybe the issue there would be to resolve the question of who originated what Carribbean style, as in--did the slaves or the slavemasters largely create one form or another of their regional music?

>

As for the Middle Eastern music, the African influence (Berbers, Egyptians, Kushites, etc.) does exist here, as well as those from its other surrounding regions (Persia, etc.) to enrich the Arabian style.

>

I do refute the OP’s statements and say: Prince utilized Afro-Caribbean (not Latino*) and Middle East music styles to exibit his understanding and appreciation of African culture.

>

*Otherwise, if you can isolate some music that Prince had done in a Flamenco style (bold choice) or a French Chanson, or perhaps incorporate a backing orchestral track that approximates a classical Monteverdi feel, or heck, maybe even some kind of Mexican Polka (German-Latino!) romp, then OK, it's cool to call it Latin or Latino since it would literally be so. But I don't believe that Prince did that! Musicologists, check it out.

paisleyparkgirl said:

Yes, I feel your point here. To tour Africa would have been a good development that a lot of people would have looked up to. Not to be an apologist, but otherwise sympathize with Prince's choices--because that's what I choose to do from a fan standpoint--I note that this artist was an owner of a multi-million dollar recording studio and soundstage and the retainer of not one but several bands and musical contractors, unlike many acts and had to make difficult, sacrificing choices about his touring schedule througout the bulk of his career. I believe he chose to focus his tours on hot market areas to collect the most earnings to support his network and creative enterprises and this may have sacrificed some of his heart's desires. I think it generally comes to that point for the most of us. I really don't know. Foreigner's touring in Africa has been called expensive. Did he ever travel through there extensively? His work habit was pretry extensive and he wasn't much in2 vacations so I think probably not.

paisleyparkgirl said:

LoveGalore said:

paisleyparkgirl said: So what you don't know is anything about black Americans and how to respond to my post, choosing to try to discredit me by applying your one note understanding of what African American encompasses. Prove me wrong. What is the point of this thread exactly?

The point is just me observing that it's sad that an African American artist chose to highlight Middle Eastern or Latino culture over African. Doesn't make me love him any less but I just find it a bit sad.

The end.

Wow.

Prince was not "fussy" at all when recording. Susan Rogers confirms this in many interviews. Oftentimes she'd be thinking that Prince was going to re-record something or do another take and he'd just move on at mach speed.

He valued feel and groove and spontaneity much more than studio wizardry or immaculate aural purity - especially in the early part of his career from Prince to Around the World In A Day.

Sometimes, though, he would fuss over a song. Weirdly, TAKE ME WITH U was a song he spent weeks and weeks on whereas a song like LITTLE RED CORVETTE he'd spend a day or two on.

[Edited 2/7/23 15:13pm]

There is no way to sum it up in a couple of paragraphs. It's not a simple straight line answer. AAs were aggressively separated from their root cultures going into centuries. The wave you see now from celebrities is highly due to DNA availability, we all have an inkling of how Prince took to all that, and the ending of SA apartheid. Tons of history play into that answer. I sense he'd eventually got there.

Germanegro said:

So you are saying the only way prince could enjoy or admire and play non AA music is because it was African.

This is both reductive of the music (borderline arrogant actually, as if you want to claim everything as African music) you are writing about without citing any actual examples, as well as princes interest in many different kinds of music. The ģuy was a musician with open ears to all kinds of stuff. Not just stuff with an african rhythmic sensibility.

Youre also just denying the obvious fact that he just didn't interact with African music styles. Each to their own. He didnt have to. I dont think George clinton did either really. But there is less pressure to prove Clinton was proud of his roots/race than with prince.
[Edited 2/8/23 10:30am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Germanegro said:

I pushed back against the OP's generalized description--Prince's Latino music style. Maybe it's a subtlety that only the sensitive can feel. I am simply here to say that Africa's influence on the world is alive and its impact is vast.

>

It was grating to me to read both Latino and Middle Eastern styles being called completely disparate from African culture. I think I resloved (for myself at least) the difference in interpreation of "Latino music by Prince" in my other post. I can see where that representation would cause resistance in some corners. Maybe the issue there would be to resolve the question of who originated what Carribbean style, as in--did the slaves or the slavemasters largely create one form or another of their regional music?

>

As for the Middle Eastern music, the African influence (Berbers, Egyptians, Kushites, etc.) does exist here, as well as those from its other surrounding regions (Persia, etc.) to enrich the Arabian style.

>

I do refute the OP’s statements and say: Prince utilized Afro-Caribbean (not Latino*) and Middle East music styles to exibit his understanding and appreciation of African culture.

>

*Otherwise, if you can isolate some music that Prince had done in a Flamenco style (bold choice) or a French Chanson, or perhaps incorporate a backing orchestral track that approximates a classical Monteverdi feel, or heck, maybe even some kind of Mexican Polka (German-Latino!) romp, then OK, it's cool to call it Latin or Latino since it would literally be so. But I don't believe that Prince did that! Musicologists, check it out.

So you are saying the only way prince could enjoy or admire and play non AA music is because it was African. This is both reductive of the music (borderline arrogant actually, as if you want to claim everything as African music) you are writing about without citing any actual examples, as well as princes interest in many different kinds of music. The ģuy was a musician with open ears to all kinds of stuff. Not just stuff with an african rhythmic sensibility. Youre also just denying the obvious fact that he just didn't interact with African music styles. Each to their own. He didnt have to. I dont think George clinton did either really. But there is less pressure to prove Clinton was proud of his roots/race than with prince. [Edited 2/8/23 10:30am]

NO--that is not what I am saying, nor trying to say. I affirm that I am NOT saying that the only way Prince could enjoy, etc., non-Black (aka non-AA) music is because it was African.

>

OK, really--we know that a rainbow of music styles and some of different cultures are blended into Prince's oeuvre. That's as obvious as the sun of the bright Saharan sky. Besides that I am saying that Prince was conscious of and had indeed applied African music styles to his stuff, contrary to the OP's assumptions. If YOU feel that those he did incorporate were not "African enough" or as purely African as YOU feel they should have been to merit such credit, then that is your situation.

>

I refuse to accept the OPs claim--and yours also, apparently--that the "Latino" and Middle Eastern" styles cited (the Latino being slightly misidentified in this case, IMO) have no roots or parts whatsoever of an African influence. That claim is wrong, and I'm not sorry if you believe that this feels arrogant to say. This being Black History Month I think it would be a better time than most to help fix that misconception.

>

I do seriously enjoy tracing the factual historical basis of things but I am not a historian, hence I've raised my call for musicologists to chime in on idenfitying the origin and identification of this or that ethnic or regional music style. This is a conversation and not a dissertation, on my part, so I personally don't feel the need to dig up specific citations from academia or elsewhere right now. If you or anyone would like to do so I wholeheartedly encourage it be done.

>

I'm not going to go into a discussion on George Clinton--I don't know why you just did, but to each to their own, and you know that! (It would best belong in its own thread in the "Music: non-Prince" forum).

Germanegro said:

.

>

I refuse to accept the OPs claim--and yours also, apparently--that the "Latino" and Middle Eastern" styles cited (the Latino being slightly misidentified in this case, IMO) have no roots or parts whatsoever of an African influence. That claim is wrong, and I'm not sorry if you believe that this feels arrogant to say. This being Black History Month I think it would be a better time than most to help fix that misconception.

>

It doesn't count. Let me make it simple : It's like saying Middle-Eastern and Latino (excluding afro-latinos who have a significant amount of african dna) folks are black just because they might have some african ancestry.

[Edited 2/9/23 16:34pm]

paisleyparkgirl said:

Germanegro said:

.

>

I refuse to accept the OPs claim--and yours also, apparently--that the "Latino" and Middle Eastern" styles cited (the Latino being slightly misidentified in this case, IMO) have no roots or parts whatsoever of an African influence. That claim is wrong, and I'm not sorry if you believe that this feels arrogant to say. This being Black History Month I think it would be a better time than most to help fix that misconception.

>

It doesn't count. Let me make it simple : It's like saying Middle-Eastern and Latino (excluding afro-latinos who have a significant amount of african dna) folks are black just because they might have some african ancestry.

[Edited 2/9/23 16:34pm]

No--I don't belive this is like what I am saying. Here, you're talking about the extension of a culture which could appear to be something like a DNA imprint, but obviously is not the same. What I feel you are saying here is that the African use of some music style applied to their own is not theirs to claim because the dominanator says so. I reject that.

And besides, the people who have African DNA can be Black if they want to be. Does that sound crazy or arrogant? Whichever side of society you sit at might help define what your attitude toward this will be. But if you want to use a systematic analysis of these things you can always measure percentages of what's what.

[Edited 2/9/23 17:59pm]

paisleypargirl: Back to your initial kickoff statment toward the subject--"I find it odd that as a black person you don't really hear any African influences in his [Prince's] art."

I really think you started out with a wild idea on this expression--it's shaky.

>

That's just part of this discussion, followed by: how much of an African influence can you deem to be an African influence.

>

This can go on or we just agree to disagree and hear what we want to hear. Othewrise--we need some EXPERTS, pleeeease!

paisleyparkgirl said:

LoveGalore said:

paisleyparkgirl said: Slaves were brought to America from a lot of places.

Besides Africa where else ?

Many were from Jamaica--if they didn't DIE before they were moved out. Haiti as well. How much African were they? Their DNA was generally 100% but not always, because slavemasters got randy and needed an outlet that the wife and mistress wouldn't handle. Those resulting babies were less fully African, and some even 50-50. It didn't matter because most of them were kept stuck in the slave mill, the progeny unrecognized by their kin.

Where were those people from, then, who got moved out since massa didn't want no trouble from the missus--Africa? No. 'Da island.

Germanegro said:

Where were they from prior to Jamaica or Haiti? I mean if your going all silly. Most white ppl in the US south hail from somewhere in or very close to the UK. Technically, genetically there's not much differences except maybe which WA country is the most dominant. The difference in the islands are they were able to maintain a small percentage of their root culture to pass on to each succeeding generation.

onlyforaminute said:

Nowhere else, unless you mean to reference their ancestral origin--including their non-African roots, for those to those whom that variety of origin applies. Simultaneously can you have African people, natives and diasporic, who can hail from anywhere else in the world.

Germannegro just sounds increasingly like one of those guys out to claim everything is African cos humanity started there. Or anything vaguely 'percussive' or 'rhythmic' is African.

The bending to pretend prince was into latin American (a handful of songs, with varying results, that dont really suggest any deep understanding or interest in it) or middle eastern music (where is this btw? A few corny bits on the symbol album?) because this was his way of taking an interest in African music is a leap amd silly on a few levels. To me it just shows prince was into kinda interested in some non American cultures. If he wanted to take more of an interest in African culture its not like he wouldnt have been aware of it happening in hip hop in the late 80s or in various pop songs at the time. But he didnt go there. And that was his choice.
[Edited 2/11/23 22:53pm]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

NOPE. This is where YOUR and paisleyparkgirl's concept of what is African and the scope of African influence falls short. I'm not bending any part of perspective on that point, and an ethnomusicologist will outline those particulars.
>
Besides this, Prince was a pop artist through-and-through, with a bona-fide Black background and influence. If you want to describe what he did with his approach to world music as corny, you may but at the same time understand that he wasn't heading down a pathway to retread international folk, either. That's okay, too--like you also say he could do what he wanted to do.