Which leaves two questions: What dues were owned to "actual" gays if he created his own aesthetic from preceding and concurrent musical performers, who for the most part were not gay? Wouldn't Prince's support for all people regardless of race or sexuality and how he encouraged us to be the same in a time when there was far more discrimination against the LGBTQIA+ communities that there is now be enough?

sure, he created his own aesthetic, look, persona, character, etc etc, but do you not understand that influence can be passed down in myriad ways? your whole thing is basically reiterating: 1) prince wasnt gay! 2) prince didnt take anything from any gay scenes or artists! 3) prince might as well have not even KNOWN about LGBT people until evil vindictive journalists asked him about it, at which point he cried at the indignity of being understood and mislabelled and was forced to defend his heterosexual honour! its fine, we get it. yes, prince prob took most of his influence from straight artists, and a lot of female artists (who also influenced gay culture). but unfortunately for you, effeminancy, esp in the 80s, was seen as = gay. you think prince didnt know that? you think he didnt know what he was doing? so even IF he was never influenced by little richard or sylvester (yet to see a peep from you about this), which he obv was, by presenting a certain androgynous, pansexual persona, prince was bringing a certain gayness into his act. whether he had to pay respect to the gay community or not, idk, but this denial from you that there was nothing gay about his act whatsoever, its excessive.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

Which leaves two questions: What dues were owned to "actual" gays if he created his own aesthetic from preceding and concurrent musical performers, who for the most part were not gay? Wouldn't Prince's support for all people regardless of race or sexuality and how he encouraged us to be the same in a time when there was far more discrimination against the LGBTQIA+ communities that there is now be enough?

sure, he created his own aesthetic, look, persona, character, etc etc, but do you not understand that influence can be passed down in myriad ways? your whole thing is basically reiterating: 1) prince wasnt gay! 2) prince didnt take anything from any gay scenes or artists! 3) prince might as well have not even KNOWN about LGBT people until evil vindictive journalists asked him about it, at which point he cried at the indignity of being understood and mislabelled and was forced to defend his heterosexual honour! its fine, we get it. yes, prince prob took most of his influence from straight artists, and a lot of female artists (who also influenced gay culture). but unfortunately for you, effeminancy, esp in the 80s, was seen as = gay. you think prince didnt know that? you think he didnt know what he was doing? so even IF he was never influenced by little richard or sylvester (yet to see a peep from you about this), which he obv was, by presenting a certain androgynous, pansexual persona, prince was bringing a certain gayness into his act. whether he had to pay respect to the gay community or not, idk, but this denial from you that there was nothing gay about his act whatsoever, its excessive.

.

No I absolutely understand that influence is passed down in multiple ways.

.

1) Prince was not gay - there is no indication that he was and YOU agreed that is almost certainly true.

.

2) Bullshit. I have never said that Prince did not take anything from the gay scene or gay artists. This is a lie. I said his influences were more from glam rockers, Funkadelic/Parliament and the androgyny in 1970s fashions etc. I asked time after time for any indication that he got more influence from gay men in Minneapolis - but not one person ever could find this because he got more influence from other performers and the general androgyny in his formative years. It really should not be that hard to understand that this MORE means that he got some from gay people (this amount is just way overblown by some here). I also pointed out that the performers who influenced him were "for the most part" not gay - this means some were gay and I alluded to Freddie Mercury. So you are wrong that I said no gay artist or person influenced Prince. You can even see that you are lying without needing to look back because the question I asked you (but you did not answer) includes that I recognised that were some gay performers that influenced him.

.

3) Bullshit. You will not find anywhere where I said "prince might as well have not even KNOWN about LGBT people until evil vindictive journalists asked him about it". This is a complete fabrication.

.

No you don't get it - You just make up lies to pretend I did not say what I said and I said something completely different.

.

I don't know why you have to lie about what I said and then agree with what I actually said ie that "prince prob took most of his influence from straight artists, and a lot of female artists" - Your falsification shames you.

.

I was around in the 1980s and 1970s and it is wrong that effeminate fashions of performers in Glam Rock (which preceded Prince and largely passed by the 1980s - get your history right) were seen as gay. Earlier in this thread, I pointed to Skyhooks, a band that started in the 1970s - all dressed effeminately, not gay and as glam rockers in Australia, they were the band that most men preferred over Sherbet.

.

You lie again by saying I never mentioned Little Richard or Slyvester - This lie can be shown by you looking back to see that I did mention both of them.

.

Your lies are excessive, they shame you and demean you.

[Edited 9/5/22 4:35am]

i dont know how i will live with this shame of having demeaned myself in such a fashion!

why do you keep asking how he was influenced by gay men in mpls? does this really matter?

at the end of the day, princes gay posturing, was just that, posturing, as it was with bowie, et al.

but gayness it was.

you seem to be in terminal denial of this even being the case. as if gayness doesnt actually exist.

sure, many gay-faking 70s artists werent gay, but the fact is, they were trying to act as if they were! or as if they were game for it (eg alice cooper)

now, im well aware that you prefer not to see gayness, as evidenced by your telling me that people didn’t see glam as being gay (even if it was a charade), but I have news for you – many people did see it in exactly this way.

and dont take it from me:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/04/fashion/mens-style/growing-up-gay-glam-rock-queen-bowie-freddie-mercury.html

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

i dont know how i will live with this shame of having demeaned myself in such a fashion!

.

You have failed to admit your lies.

.

You have failed to show one single place where I said Prince got nothing from any gay performer or person when I made it clear that he did - but he just got more from other performers.

.

You have failed to show that anything I said meant that I think Prince only learned about LGBTQIA+ people from a journalist when you know this is just a complete fabrication.

.

As you do not have the honesty to discuss this with any integrity there is no point in discussing this with you.

[Edited 9/5/22 12:30pm]

So.... yes?

TrivialPursuit said:

So.... yes?

.

So.... yes what?

.

Prince was influenced by many different things from his formative years. His clothes was mainly influenced by woman's clothes and by the androgyny of the time but not exclusively - the purpose was triple - Firstly and primarily he knew the girls loved it, then he knew he needed to stand out as himself and finally he knew boys would hate it. A key difference between the gay scene is the cover of blue boy magazine promoted a gay macho look completely unlike Prince and the drag club scene at the time was to dress and lipsync like a specific diva - again nothing like Prince.

.

But where does this imagined gay aesthetic that people see in Prince's clothes come from? ABBA was not gay. Most of Queen was not gay and Freddie was a late addition to the band. Bowie was not gay despite his later regretted claim, Little Richard was adamant that he was not gay, came out, went back in and came out again - but they were appropriated by different gay scenes just like Liza Minnelli, Barbara Streisand, Diana Ross, Kylie Minoque, etc, etc, etc,. The so-called gay aesthetic within a culture borrows from everywhere, just the same as every subculture borrows from the other subcultures with that culture. When you are dealing with subcultures within a culture, you will always find performers borrowing, adapting and making something their own. This is not cross-cultural appropriation and misuse, so none of them got away with anything.

IanRG said:

TrivialPursuit said:

So.... yes?

.

So.... yes what?

So yes, he would be accused of appropriation? Feel like y'all are fussin' for the sake of it. Sorta like a big ol' gay dick measuring contest, which - in real life - I'm happy to be a judge for, honestly.

Everyone is gay, had gay thoughts, wondered about gay shit, DONE gay shit.

That is entirely true.

TrivialPursuit said:

LoveGalore said:

I assure you, Ian is only wearing those Egyptian silk camisoles for his woman's fancy.

Whatever peanut butters the jelly. And I've had my jelly buttered quite a few times. No judgment.

TrivialPursuit said:

IanRG said:

.

So.... yes what?

So yes, he would be accused of appropriation? Feel like y'all are fussin' for the sake of it. Sorta like a big ol' gay dick measuring contest, which - in real life - I'm happy to be a judge for, honestly.

Everyone is gay, had gay thoughts, wondered about gay shit, DONE gay shit.

That is entirely true.

.

No, I am not fussing, I am just fascinated and amazed at how committed people here are to the myth of appropriation. And how you all keep falling back to attacking people who point out the obvious with structured logic and arguments.

.

Prince did not appropriate anything - but he was influenced by women, straight men and gay men etc. There was no cultural appropriation because cultural appropriation requires:

.

1: That there is a culture that is separate from other cultures and this separation is by multigenerational inheritances and shared histories etc. This excludes the many subcultures within each culture from being a culture in their own right. All subcultural differences within a culture are just normal variations between communities within that culture. These differences will be generalisations beacuse there will not be a neat boder between subcultures. The different aspects of each subculture will almost always be shared across of number subcultures within a culture because all the people in these subcultures share a common culture. Subcultures can also transient and just ebb and flow with the fashion, whilst a culture only adapts over time with the flow of history and as it picks up and casts off traditions etc.

.

2: That someone from outside the culture has stolen something from that culture - not borrowed, but stolen - not taken on an influence but stolen. If it is just a trend in clothes within a culture in a decade where clothing that previously was mostly worn by women but was taken up by general male and female fashion trends with more famboyant versions by pop stars of all genders and sexual orientations in a decade and towards the end of this decade one artist (ie Prince) takes this as inspiration for him to create his own look, then all that has happened is he was inspired by those who wore that 70s androgynous fashions. Nothing has been stolen from a separate culture by Prince doing this. Just as nothing was stolen by all drag queens dressing as the long list of straight divas than inspired them.

.

" don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r." These are good words. Perhaps you, LoveGalore, RJOrion and funkybabyandthebabysitters should reflect on these words and ponder why you all cannot discuss the points without all the fake flirting, deflections and lies etc and why you have all extended this thread to 14 pages just because someone won't accept your fantasies because they are not based on reality - I only responded whn you posted, I never lead the discussion.

.

Thankfully, your fantasy in the last two lines is just more wishful thinking. It is wonderful for me to just enjoy Prince's music and Prince for who he actually was without having to fool myself and lament that all those words are not about me or the myriad of other straight people who enjoyed his music and gameplaying - Prince is just a man comfortable in his sexuality who enjoys messing with other people's minds - even a bunch of old men in 2022 still hanging on to perhaps, perhaps but they really know there never was any perhaps, perhaps for them.

Chilllle, "I'm not fussin'" kinda loses it's punch when you follow it with two bullet points and five paragraphs. TL;DR

You doth protest too much, methinks. Let's all just move forward, fussy pants.

[Edited 9/5/22 19:00pm]

TrivialPursuit said:

Chilllle, "I'm not fussin'" kinda loses it's punch when you follow it with two bullet points and five paragraphs. TL;DR

You doth protest too much, methinks. Let's all just move forward, fussy pants.

[Edited 9/5/22 19:00pm]

.

I will if you will - but all I get is lies, deflections and fake flirtations.

.

You need to understand the difference between "fussing for the sake of it" and defending yourself from liars who are unable to address what I said.

.

However, you did not just say stop fussing, you perpetuated the appropriation myth and rather than addressing the comments I made in reply to you, you posted the above instead.

.

If you don't reply with another bullshit post, I will just move on.

LoveGalore said:

Now who's the one arguing with everyone? Lmao. Auntie Ian is determined to simp for Prince's favorite mascara harder than Prince himself.

The trigger is so easily engaged, it seems.

TrivialPursuit said:

LoveGalore said:

Now who's the one arguing with everyone? Lmao. Auntie Ian is determined to simp for Prince's favorite mascara harder than Prince himself.

The trigger is so easily engaged, it seems.

.

Just as I said - the pair of YOU cannot let it go and YOU both just had to post again - Once again without addressing what I said but still full of your bullshit.

.

Let's see how you go now ...

IanRG said:

TrivialPursuit said:

The trigger is so easily engaged, it seems.

.

Just as I said - the pair of YOU cannot let it go and YOU both just had to post again - Once again without addressing what I said but still full of your bullshit.

.

Let's see how you go now ...

Sis, we're responding to each other, though. Not you.

TrivialPursuit said:

IanRG said:

.

Just as I said - the pair of YOU cannot let it go and YOU both just had to post again - Once again without addressing what I said but still full of your bullshit.

.

Let's see how you go now ...

Sis, we're responding to each other, though. Not you.

.

And once again, you could not help yourself. Nothing on topic, just you pair with your bullshit about me - That you pair are prepared to attack people hiding behind but we were doing publicly in the thread about you says it all.

.

Let's see how you go now ...

IanRG said:

LoveGalore said:

IanRG said:

.

And once again, you could not help yourself. Nothing on topic, just you pair with your bullshit about me - That you pair are prepared to attack people hiding behind but we were doing publicly in the thread about you says it all.

.

Let's see how you go now ...

Do u lie?

.

Once again an off-topic personal question that is none of your business and is just another reason why this is 14 pages of you seeking to avoid answering what I said.

.

Please Note: Just as with your previous personal questions, this answer is just a refusal to answer and cannot be taken as an answer one way or the other. But we know you will just assume whatever you want anyway, just like before.

.

Let's see how you go now ...

[Edited 9/6/22 1:07am]

IanRG said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

i dont know how i will live with this shame of having demeaned myself in such a fashion!

.

You have failed to admit your lies.

.

You have failed to show one single place where I said Prince got nothing from any gay performer or person when I made it clear that he did - but he just got more from other performers.

.

You have failed to show that anything I said meant that I think Prince only learned about LGBTQIA+ people from a journalist when you know this is just a complete fabrication.

.

As you do not have the honesty to discuss this with any integrity there is no point in discussing this with you.

[Edited 9/5/22 12:30pm]

you appear to only read and respond to what you want to, basically just repeating your same points over and over and over.

so i am perfectly okay with my failure and deceit.

i am more than happy to be a liar in your eyes.

kudos to you though for being surely the most ahem ANAL commenter, the most SELECTIVE commenter i have seen in these parts in some time, utterly committed to your (actually quite shockingly) rigid view of the subject.

may u live 2 c the dawn my friend.

[Edited 9/6/22 8:47am]

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

IanRG said:

.

You have failed to admit your lies.

.

You have failed to show one single place where I said Prince got nothing from any gay performer or person when I made it clear that he did - but he just got more from other performers.

.

You have failed to show that anything I said meant that I think Prince only learned about LGBTQIA+ people from a journalist when you know this is just a complete fabrication.

.

As you do not have the honesty to discuss this with any integrity there is no point in discussing this with you.

[Edited 9/5/22 12:30pm]

you appear to only read and respond to what you want to, basically just repeating your same points over and over and over.

so i am perfectly okay with my failure and deceit.

i am more than happy to be a liar in your eyes.

kudos to you though for being surely the most ahem ANAL commenter, the most SELECTIVE commenter i have seen in these parts in some time, utterly committed to your (actually quite shockingly) rigid view of the subject.

may u live 2 c the dawn my friend.

[Edited 9/6/22 8:47am]

.

I responded to your points up to the point you made up things I did not say - You lied and said I did not, Did you find the times I mentioned Llttle Richard?

.

It does not surprise me that you both knew you were being deceitful and don't care.

.

Look back - we agreed on most things except the things you said I said but just comfirmed were lies. You said Prince was not gay, you said you though he was not bi, you said he was more directly influenced by more straight performers than gay performers or people - you just wanted to make a chain of but the straight performers could have been influenced by a gay performer. You said Prince both loved and hated controversy. The only place we disagreed (outside of what you knew were lying about) is that I argued against your position because I don't believe that being perceived as being a sissy should be seen as being gay - how shocking!

.

Did anyone here more from their view? The only difference between me and the rest is I argued against the rigid Org view that men embracing their feminine side is being gay. This may have been thought by the US audience of Rolling Stones concert more than 40 years ago but, come on, this would not have occurred in the UK, Europe or Australia at that time and it is now 2022 - surely we have moved on from these homophobic views?

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

you appear to only read and respond to what you want to, basically just repeating your same points over and over and over.

My God the world is going to fall apart. We're in agreement! STOP THE PRESSES!!!

IanRG said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

you appear to only read and respond to what you want to, basically just repeating your same points over and over and over.

so i am perfectly okay with my failure and deceit.

i am more than happy to be a liar in your eyes.

kudos to you though for being surely the most ahem ANAL commenter, the most SELECTIVE commenter i have seen in these parts in some time, utterly committed to your (actually quite shockingly) rigid view of the subject.

may u live 2 c the dawn my friend.

[Edited 9/6/22 8:47am]

.

I responded to your points up to the point you made up things I did not say - You lied and said I did not, Did you find the times I mentioned Llttle Richard?

.

It does not surprise me that you both knew you were being deceitful and don't care.

.

Look back - we agreed on most things except the things you said I said but just comfirmed were lies. You said Prince was not gay, you said you though he was not bi, you said he was more directly influenced by more straight performers than gay performers or people - you just wanted to make a chain of but the straight performers could have been influenced by a gay performer. You said Prince both loved and hated controversy. The only place we disagreed (outside of what you knew were lying about) is that I argued against your position because I don't believe that being perceived as being a sissy should be seen as being gay - how shocking!

.

Did anyone here more from their view? The only difference between me and the rest is I argued against the rigid Org view that men embracing their feminine side is being gay. This may have been thought by the US audience of Rolling Stones concert more than 40 years ago but, come on, this would not have occurred in the UK, Europe or Australia at that time and it is now 2022 - surely we have moved on from these homophobic views?

as the great man sung, i must be guilty for my (dis)honesty...

im not engaging in this 'you said/i said' back and forth. i dont have the time or interest to look over all your posts, sorry. this is not a court of law, though i get the sense you wish it was so you can win the case lol

i think your idea of attitudes towards 'sissies', effeminate men, gay men, and your idea of where we are in terms of homophobia (though yes, most western countries have progressed miles ahead of where we were decades back) is overly flattering to liberal self regard. you seem to be trying to look at the 70s/80s from the perspective of 2022.

and this idea that the uk or europe was that much further ahead than the US in the late 70s/early 80s, it might have been a bit more accepting, but it wasnt THAT different.

[Edited 9/6/22 10:59am]

Which one is better: Can't Slow Down or Dancing On The Ceiling?

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

IanRG said:

.

I responded to your points up to the point you made up things I did not say - You lied and said I did not, Did you find the times I mentioned Llttle Richard?

.

It does not surprise me that you both knew you were being deceitful and don't care.

.

Look back - we agreed on most things except the things you said I said but just comfirmed were lies. You said Prince was not gay, you said you though he was not bi, you said he was more directly influenced by more straight performers than gay performers or people - you just wanted to make a chain of but the straight performers could have been influenced by a gay performer. You said Prince both loved and hated controversy. The only place we disagreed (outside of what you knew were lying about) is that I argued against your position because I don't believe that being perceived as being a sissy should be seen as being gay - how shocking!

.

Did anyone here more from their view? The only difference between me and the rest is I argued against the rigid Org view that men embracing their feminine side is being gay. This may have been thought by the US audience of Rolling Stones concert more than 40 years ago but, come on, this would not have occurred in the UK, Europe or Australia at that time and it is now 2022 - surely we have moved on from these homophobic views?

as the great man sung, i must be guilty for my (dis)honesty...

im not engaging in this 'you said/i said' back and forth. i dont have the time or interest to look over all your posts, sorry. this is not a court of law, though i get the sense you wish it was so you can win the case lol

i think your idea of attitudes towards 'sissies', effeminate men, gay men, and your idea of where we are in terms of homophobia (though yes, most western countries have progressed miles ahead of where we were decades back) is overly flattering to liberal self regard. you seem to be trying to look at the 70s/80s from the perspective of 2022.

and this idea that the uk or europe was that much further ahead than the US in the late 70s/early 80s, it might have been a bit more accepting, but it wasnt THAT different.

.

You started the you said/I said based on your dishonesty about what I said.

.

It is not a court of law but when you are so free with your accusations and you know they are based on lies you really should expect the other person to defend themselves - This does not mean that they are just seeking to win. It is just the opposite when in fact you are seeking to win by lying.

.

The whole thread is about whether Prince got away with theft in the 1980s and would not now. The question by the OP was framed in terms of 2022.

.

Sure Australia, UK and Europe were only a bit more accepting then than USA was and the same applies to today. The difference is Prince would not have booed and had things thrown at him by audiences in these countries.

.

If U live 2 C the dawn and you see Prince - Do you think he would be happier with you saying Ooh that's gay or Ooh that's Prince?

[Edited 9/6/22 13:39pm]

LoveGalore said:

Australia never saw a person they couldn't shape into a belligerent narcissist.

.

Once again offtopic with an attack.

.

You can't help yourself but reply

.

Let's see how you go now ...

TrivialPursuit said:

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

you appear to only read and respond to what you want to, basically just repeating your same points over and over and over.

My God the world is going to fall apart. We're in agreement! STOP THE PRESSES!!!

.

As I said, I have read and responded to funkbaby. If people cannot address what is said to them and they keep coming back with assumptions, accusation and lies instead, there is not any chance for the discussion to develop.

[Edited 9/6/22 13:44pm]