TrivialPursuit said:

IanRG said:

PJMcGee said:

PJMcGee said:

. The feminine clothing, makeup etc. is just who he was, as he told Chris Rock. He didn't mention influences, glam rock or whatever. He said it was innate, part of his personality

Morris said in his book that he was paying close attention to David Bowie's style.

PJMcGee said:

Said I'm willin' and I'm able I'm ready to place my cards on the table I've been holdin' back this feelin' for far to long Now that I'm willin', it's a fact Is truly mighty strong Like a child lost in the wilderness 'Till I reach my destination, I won't rest 'Cause I'm willin' (willin') And I'm able (able) I'm ready to place my cards on the table (table) There's some kings in my deck and a queen or two So you know there ain't nothin', Nothin' that I wouldn't do (nothin' that I wouldn't do) It 'twas a long time coming, But now that it's here All the non-believers better fear me 'Cause I'm willin (willin' and able) And I'm able (shoo-doo-doo) I got good and plenty cards To place on the table (table) Been holdin' back this feeling for far to long (Been holdin' back this feeling for far to long) Now that I'm willing, (this feelin') this feelin' It's truly mighty strong (truly, I, I) I've long thought this was basically a bi anthem. I mean, that kings and queens stuff is undeniable. But of course, Prince puts it in a quasi gospel arrangement, with the Steeles backing him up, just to muddy the waters. And the lyrics have the implication of a religious awakening. But it wouldn't be the first time the man conflated the sacred and the carnal. [Edited 9/2/22 8:51am]

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That does not work - If you twist the song to not being about what it is about and the Kings or Queens being a reference to those he has had sex with - then in this interpretation he is saying he mainly has sex with Kings (ie males) and sometimes Queens (is this females or gay males?). They are just high cards able to be played by a Prince.

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You interpretation is a stretch, Prince has never had any problem explicitly addressing sex or addressing the dichotomy between sex/lust and God/love.

IanRG said:

PJMcGee said:

That whole I do it for the women stuff is basically nonsense, in my opinion. The only time I know that he said that was in reference to his heels. Which to me means women don't like really short guys. The feminine clothing, makeup etc. is just who he was, as he told Chris Rock. He didn't mention influences, glam rock or whatever. He said it was innate, part of his personality. Look at his early school picture, rocking a pretty scarf. Did that make him gay or bi? Certainly not. Did it make him seem to be open to queerness, in whatever form? Sure. Despite his occasional protests, some of which could have been Prince keeping one foot firmly in the lucrative mainstream.

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Prince did not limit his comments about dressing the way he did just to his shoes. You can say what he said was nonsense because as you say it is just your opinion. That does not make it believable.

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What he said to Chris Rock matches what he said elsewhere about dressing and acting the way he did because the girls love it and the boys hate it - this is what he learned at school.

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It matches that he said he dressed to stand out as Prince, not as someone else. To do this he created his own look so obviously he is not going to say I dressed like ..., that would defeat his purpose. However, in this, just like everyone else he took on influences and adapted them to his own stage and image style.

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I agree: none of this makes him gay or bi. However, it is nonsense that he was regularly and consistently unequivocal in his statements, lyrics, relationships etc that he was not gay was just a front so he could keep a foot in firmly in the lucrative mainstream.

paisleyparkgirl said:

PJMcGee said:

. The feminine clothing, makeup etc. is just who he was, as he told Chris Rock. He didn't mention influences, glam rock or whatever. He said it was innate, part of his personality

Morris said in his book that he was paying close attention to David Bowie's style.

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Of course he was.

PJMcGee said:

IanRG said:

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That does not work - If you twist the song to not being about what it is about and the Kings or Queens being a reference to those he has had sex with - then in this interpretation he is saying he mainly has sex with Kings (ie males) and sometimes Queens (is this females or gay males?). They are just high cards able to be played by a Prince.

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You interpretation is a stretch, Prince has never had any problem explicitly addressing sex or addressing the dichotomy between sex/lust and God/love.

I see the kings and queens as being parts of him - "in my deck." Just as he said he had multiple personalities, at least one of which was female. How do you explain the next line - "So you know there ain't nothin' that I wouldn't do"?

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In the context of the song it is that he is willing and able to move forward from what he was holoding back from doing - that he will not longer be like a child lost in the wilderness. That 'twas a long time coming But now that it's here All the non-believers better fear me. This was not reference to being willing and able to fuck men and women - that is nonsense.

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It that he has mostly kings in his deck and a few queens is just a recognition of him being open to his feminine side. It is was not written or meant to be a bi anthem.

PJMcGee said:

I wouldn't say he always portrayed it as a dichotomy either. See the song Lovesexy. A sexually explicit song that is also about loving God. Loving the divine in another person through sex.

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Of course he does not always portray it as a dichotomy, I never said that. However, it is undeniable that Prince did see and address this dichotomy regularly.

IanRG said:

IanRG said:

IanRG said:

PJMcGee said:

IanRG said:

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Prince did not limit his comments about dressing the way he did just to his shoes. You can say what he said was nonsense because as you say it is just your opinion. That does not make it believable.

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What he said to Chris Rock matches what he said elsewhere about dressing and acting the way he did because the girls love it and the boys hate it - this is what he learned at school.

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It matches that he said he dressed to stand out as Prince, not as someone else. To do this he created his own look so obviously, he is not going to say I dressed like ..., that would defeat his purpose. However, in this, just like everyone else he took on influences and adapted them to his own stage and image style.

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I agree: none of this makes him gay or bi. However, it is nonsense that he was regularly and consistently unequivocal in his statements, lyrics, relationships etc that he was not gay was just a front so he could keep a foot in firmly in the lucrative mainstream.

My memory of that comment was that women liked the shoes, not his entire wardrobe. But my memory is far from perfect. No, he didn't mention any effects on anyone else to Chris Rock. He just said that's what he was.

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The girls love it and the boys hate it was not just about shoes.

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I know what he said to Chris Rock. I pointed out that, yes he wanted to create his own look - obviously he is not going to attribute it to anyone else - BUT - this does not mean he was not influenced by others in this process. To keep the end product to himself, he did not mention those that influenced him. Remember in regard to the topic it is whether Prince's influences were gay men in Minneapolis or others - and not just influences but an appropriated (sub)culture stolen and misused by Prince, so he got away with things in the 1980s.

PJMcGee said:

IanRG said:

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In the context of the song it is that he is willing and able to move forward from what he was holoding back from doing - that he will not longer be like a child lost in the wilderness. That 'twas a long time coming But now that it's here All the non-believers better fear me. This was not reference to being willing and able to fuck men and women - that is nonsense.

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It that he has mostly kings in his deck and a few queens is just a recognition of him being open to his feminine side. It is was not written or meant to be a bi anthem.

Once again, how do you explain the next line - "So you know there ain't nothin' that I wouldn't do"?

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In the context of the song - He will do anything to move forward with his move from being a lost child in the wilderness (a CLEAR religious reference to John the Bsptist and Jesus) to confidently act on his beliefs so that non-believers better fear him. It is demonstably NOT a Bi coming out song because he DID NOT then come out as bi. There is no reason to think it was written as bi anthem.

[Edited 9/2/22 17:02pm]

PJMcGee said:

IanRG said:

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In the context of the song it is that he is willing and able to move forward from what he was holoding back from doing - that he will not longer be like a child lost in the wilderness. That 'twas a long time coming But now that it's here All the non-believers better fear me. This was not reference to being willing and able to fuck men and women - that is nonsense.

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It that he has mostly kings in his deck and a few queens is just a recognition of him being open to his feminine side. It is was not written or meant to be a bi anthem.

Not that he was willing and able to fuck men and women, but he was ready to "place his cards on the table" - be more open about it.

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Yes, place his cards on the table in how he is now comfortable in his beliefs so he can move away from being a lost child in the wilderness. If it was to be openly bi - he did NOT suddenly become open to this.

[Edited 9/2/22 17:04pm]

IanRG said:

IanRG said:

PJMcGee said:

IanRG said:

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Of course he was.

Of course he didn't live in a vacuum. But where you seem to think it was from the outside in - "I'll dress like Bowie because he gets a lot of attention." I think it was more that he saw someone not restricted by gender and that aligned with how he saw himself.

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Internal/external it is obviously always a mix.

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But Prince was influenced by Bowie who by 1977 had shown many different characters in his performances and styles and had moved on from his false and later regretted declaration to be gay.

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I think he saw someone who stood out because he mixed great and experimental music with sets of highly provocative and individual characters and styles - Far more than just oh he was not restricted by gender.

I started watching Andre Cymone and he was as flamboyant as Prince back then even in mannerisms (Dance electric video for instance).

PJMcGee said:

IanRG said:

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Yes, place his cards on the table in how he is now comfortable in his beliefs so he can move away from being a lost child in the wilderness. If it was to be openly bi - he did NOT suddenly become open to this.

[Edited 9/2/22 17:04pm]

Placing your cards on the table is about being honest about something, not about being comfortable or moving away. And no, he never did say he was bi explicitly. But those lyrics leave little wiggle room as I see them.

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Placing your cards on the table is not a stand alone phrase - it must be read in context of the song. He is no longer a lost child in the wilderness - he has matured to the point that he can put the cards on table now when he could not before - He is now willing and able to do this.

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The song is absolutely clear about this:

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I'm ready to place my cards on the table
I've been holdin' back this feelin' for far to long
Now that I'm willin', it's a fact

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If you need to take phrases out of context to imagine wiggle room, was it ever an intented meaning by the author?

PJMcGee said:

IanRG said:

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In the context of the song - He will do anything to move forward with his move from being a lost child in the wilderness (a CLEAR religious reference to John the Bsptist and Jesus) to confidently act on his beliefs so that non-believers better fear him. It is demonstably NOT a Bi coming out song because he DID NOT then come out as bi. There is no reason to think it was written as bi anthem.

There's some kings in my deck and a queen or two So you know there ain't nothin', Nothin' that I wouldn't do That's about as clear as you can be. He's not talking about stuff elsewhere in the song.

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This is not a section of the song that can only be interpreted without reference to the rest of the song - in what he is only now willing and able to do because he has moved forward - he will play all his cards and there is nothing he would not do to achieve what he is only now willing able to do. This is as a result of moving forward from being like a child lost in the wilderness to being something unbelievers fear.

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You have not addressed that he did not then come out as bi - This is NOT what he was willing or able or even ever needed to do because he was not.

IanRG said:

IanRG said:

IanRG said: