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Thread started 12/12/21 1:29am

funkman88

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Did rap music destroy Princes career?

As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna.Then in the 90s he wasn't even a top 20 artist by 2000!Do u think the rise in popularity of rap caused the historic fall?
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Reply #1 posted 12/12/21 1:32am

antonb

no he was destroyed after Purple Rain , according to most media outlets.

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Reply #2 posted 12/12/21 3:34am

TheEnglishGent

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He played the Batman theme on the family piano at 7 years old and his genius was declared. After that, everything was shit.

RIP sad
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Reply #3 posted 12/12/21 4:10am

funkaholic1972

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TheEnglishGent said:

He played the Batman theme on the family piano at 7 years old and his genius was declared. After that, everything was shit.

I agree, it went all downhill from there on. He should have known to quit there, at the height of his abilities.

RIP Prince: thank U 4 a funky Time...
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Reply #4 posted 12/12/21 5:46am

muleFunk

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If you are in the Hall of Fame your career didn't get destoyed .

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Reply #5 posted 12/12/21 5:48am

alphastreet

funkman88 said:

As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna.Then in the 90s he wasn't even a top 20 artist by 2000!Do u think the rise in popularity of rap caused the historic fall?


He just became less mainstream and his talent was still celebrated
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Reply #6 posted 12/12/21 6:07am

eyewishuheaven

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Between rap and grunge, for a while there, if you could sing or play your instrument well you were basically Wayne Newton. That hurt a lot of groups/people. Thankfully, Prince had the talent and the gifts to endure.



[Edited 12/12/21 6:08am]

PRINCE: the only man who could wear high heels and makeup and STILL steal your woman!
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Reply #7 posted 12/12/21 6:10am

Empress

alphastreet said:

funkman88 said:

As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna.Then in the 90s he wasn't even a top 20 artist by 2000!Do u think the rise in popularity of rap caused the historic fall?


He just became less mainstream and his talent was still celebrated


Good point and I do agree with it, but I also think his conversion to JW didn't help his career nor did all the nonsense with him getting an annulment from Mayte. We all know that was bs as they were legally married. Also, when he started changing his lyrics to clean them up, some people lost interest because it seemed so fake. Personally, I've always loved him and all his music, but I do see how some lost interest during the early 2000's.
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Reply #8 posted 12/12/21 7:34am

RODSERLING

Pfffff....
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Reply #9 posted 12/12/21 7:45am

RJOrion

Rap music destroyed the rainforests.

Rap music destroyed the ozone layer.

Rap music destroyed the school curriculums.

Rap music destroyed the Catholic Church.

Rap music destroyed America's relationship with China.

Rap music destroyed Joe Biden's cognitive skills.

anything else?
[Edited 12/12/21 7:46am]
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Reply #10 posted 12/12/21 8:45am

SantanaMaitrey
a

Rap music is a contradiction in terms.
If you take any of this seriously, you're a bigger fool than I am.
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Reply #11 posted 12/12/21 9:40am

MickyDolenz

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funkman88 said:

As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna. Then in the 90s he wasn't even a top 20 artist by 2000! Do u think the rise in popularity of rap caused the historic fall?

The biggest selling act of the 1990s is Garth Brooks who is neither hip hop or grunge. smile Garth has 9 diamond albums which nobody else has, not the Beatles, Michael Jackson, or Eagles.

You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton
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Reply #12 posted 12/12/21 10:02am

alphastreet

Empress said:

alphastreet said:



He just became less mainstream and his talent was still celebrated


Good point and I do agree with it, but I also think his conversion to JW didn't help his career nor did all the nonsense with him getting an annulment from Mayte. We all know that was bs as they were legally married. Also, when he started changing his lyrics to clean them up, some people lost interest because it seemed so fake. Personally, I've always loved him and all his music, but I do see how some lost interest during the early 2000's.


I don’t know if that made people feel a certain way, but I remember rainbow children having a very low peak and thought he was over, but I think since musicology era there was renewed interest in him as a legendary live act, I think he and Madonna earned the most on tour that year
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Reply #13 posted 12/12/21 11:00am

laytonian

funkman88 said:

As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna.Then in the 90s he wasn't even a top 20 artist by 2000!Do u think the rise in popularity of rap caused the historic fall?


Behind Madonna? That's a joke.
Behind Jackson? That's also a joke.

Maybe his records didn't sell as much every year, BUT he had the #1 (money-making) concert tour of 2004. He was constantly honored by his peers and recognized as THE musical genius of his era.

Welcome to "the org", laytonian… come bathe with me.
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Reply #14 posted 12/12/21 11:56am

TrivialPursuit

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laytonian said:

funkman88 said:

As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna.Then in the 90s he wasn't even a top 20 artist by 2000!Do u think the rise in popularity of rap caused the historic fall?


Behind Madonna? That's a joke.
Behind Jackson? That's also a joke.

Maybe his records didn't sell as much every year, BUT he had the #1 (money-making) concert tour of 2004. He was constantly honored by his peers and recognized as THE musical genius of his era.


Do you even see what you're typing? Who cares about 2004, and we know that was a fluke w/ the sales of Musicology. The statement was, "As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna."

Thriller is the biggest album of all time, Purple Rain wasn't. Could've been, but it wasn't. MJ hit at just the right time. Music of the very early 80s was in flux. Everything from a new thing called rap music, to new wave groups like Blondie, punk groups... all sorts of stuff trying to find its space. Then MJ just shows up with "Billie Jean" and the world loses its collective mind. That helped establish what was allowed in 80s pop music. It was growth. The Jupiter keyboard, the Linn (all over Thriller, by the way), etc.

MJ, simply because of timing, got a jump on things. Not because it was earlier or came out before PR, but just because it was a vulnerable spot in music. 80s music didn't have a personality, a face; hadn't self-identified until Thriller blew in throughout 1983 (it was released December 1982).

So yeah, MJ ahead of Prince is totally viable. That's saying something considering MJ didnt directly tour for Thriller, instead opting (against his better judgment it seems) to record with his brothers, release Victory, then tour on that album (and barely, if at all, playing songs from that album). The Victory Tour was essentially the Thriller Tour - two years later. But what was happening two years later? Purple Rain.

So for MJ to still be ahead of Prince is pretty outstanding. You can't live in a vacuum and assume Prince had #1 this and that across the board. We know better. That doesn't take away from his success, but you have to rightly divide the truth here.

Prince can be recognized as this or that, and that's fine. But that's in hindsight, not in the moment. He released more, but even you said he didn't sell as much. And if you're figuring hard numbers from sales, tours, money made - instead of your purple-tinted glasses opinion - then MJ probably comes out ahead of that, even a little bit.

Madonna's another whole argument, but I can see how she slayed that, too. Hell, she formed her career based on what Prince had done, so it is no wonder she's in that final three.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #15 posted 12/12/21 11:57am

TrivialPursuit

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RJOrion said:

Rap music destroyed the rainforests.
Rap music destroyed the ozone layer.
Rap music destroyed the school curriculums.
Rap music destroyed the Catholic Church.
Rap music destroyed America's relationship with China.
Rap music destroyed Joe Biden's cognitive skills.
anything else?


I think it created Aspartame, sulfuric acid, beets, horseradish, and female circumcision.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #16 posted 12/12/21 12:40pm

MickyDolenz

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eyewishuheaven said:

Between rap and grunge, for a while there, if you could sing or play your instrument well you were basically Wayne Newton. That hurt a lot of groups/people. Thankfully, Prince had the talent and the gifts to endure.

Country was bigger than grunge in the 1990s. There was the popularity of Garth Brooks, Brooks & Dunn, Alan Jackson, Wynonna Judd, Shania Twain, Dixie Chicks, etc. Billy Ray Cyrus' debut abum sold 7 or 8 million copies at the time. Without Billy Ray's success, there would be no Hannah Montana later on, and maybe not Lil Nas X today. Grunge was only popular for around 2 years and it didn't replace other types of music on Top 40 radio either. The same time grunge was in so was Ace Of Base, En Vogue, Mariah Carey, TLC, Hootie & The Blowfish, Counting Crows, Color Me Badd, Enya, Sting, Aerosmith, Celine Dion, Gregorian chant albums, and so on. Country is still popular today (in the USA), but grunge died in the mainstream a couple of years after it made it big. The glam metal that grunge was supposed to have killed was popular longer than that in the 1980s.

You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton
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Reply #17 posted 12/12/21 2:05pm

MarshallStacks

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Some might say that Prince destroyed rap when he tried to absorb it into his style lol wink.

I am not one of them though. cool

Two words - Tony ... M ... smile

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Reply #18 posted 12/12/21 2:19pm

Darshy

No

But I do know who destroyed rap music...

Eminem featuring any old crap artist
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Reply #19 posted 12/12/21 3:05pm

Phase3

MickyDolenz said:



eyewishuheaven said:


Between rap and grunge, for a while there, if you could sing or play your instrument well you were basically Wayne Newton. That hurt a lot of groups/people. Thankfully, Prince had the talent and the gifts to endure.



Country was bigger than grunge in the 1990s. There was the popularity of Garth Brooks, Brooks & Dunn, Alan Jackson, Wynonna Judd, Shania Twain, Dixie Chicks, etc. Billy Ray Cyrus' debut abum sold 7 or 8 million copies at the time. Without Billy Ray's success, there would be no Hannah Montana later on, and maybe not Lil Nas X today. Grunge was only popular for around 2 years and it didn't replace other types of music on Top 40 radio either. The same time grunge was in so was Ace Of Base, En Vogue, Mariah Carey, TLC, Hootie & The Blowfish, Counting Crows, Color Me Badd, Enya, Sting, Aerosmith, Celine Dion, Gregorian chant albums, and so on. Country is still popular today (in the USA), but grunge died in the mainstream a couple of years after it made it big. The glam metal that grunge was supposed to have killed was popular longer than that in the 1980s.



Ever notice that most of today's country music doesn't sound very country at all and more like pop music?
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Reply #20 posted 12/12/21 3:06pm

Phase3

Darshy said:

No

But I do know who destroyed rap music...

Eminem featuring any old crap artist


Eminem is awesome
Machine gun Kelly is more to blame
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Reply #21 posted 12/12/21 4:04pm

MickyDolenz

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Phase3 said:

Ever notice that most of today's country music doesn't sound very country at all and more like pop music?

That could be said about Barbara Mandrell, Crystal Gayle, or Kenny Rogers in the 1970s/1980s. Even Dolly Parton made some disco & dance music songs. I think many people have this idea that country is supposed to sound like the Beverly Hillbillies theme song, like bluegrass or something. In the 1940s, a lot of country hits don't sound much different from crooner pop such as Perry Como. They often had the same vocal style, but maybe the instrumentation was a bit different. Dean Martin & Sammy Davis Jr released country albums and Ray Charles has several. There's Bob Wills who had jazz elements in his country songs in the 1950s, which was labeled as "western swing". Willie Nelson has released jazz records. There's also the case that back in the 1960s & 1970s many of the same Nashville session musicians played on country and soul/R&B records. If you listen to some country and R&B of the era. They sound similar, like I Can't Wait Any Longer by Bill Anderson & Ain't Gonna Bump No More by Joe Tex. Both songs were produced by the same guy (Buddy Killen). Bobbie Gentry, Charlie Rich, Babara Mandrell, Charlie Daniels, Ronnie Milsap & other country acts sometimes had R&B, blues, gospel, and even funk in their songs. Ronnie Milsap & Conway Twitty both started out as straight R&B singers and Kenny Rogers started out as a bass player in a jazz trio. Elvis Presley's earlier music was played on both country & R&B radio stations. Rockabilly is sort of country and R&B mixed together. When it first originated, "country & western" itself was basically just blues by rural white singers mixed with folk. The slide guitar sound in country & blues came from traditional Hawaiian music. In the 1920s & 1930s, there were black & white jug bands. Jug band music is considered traditional country today.

You can take a black guy to Nashville from right out of the cotton fields with bib overalls, and they will call him R&B. You can take a white guy in a pin-stripe suit who’s never seen a cotton field, and they will call him country. ~ O. B. McClinton
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Reply #22 posted 12/12/21 4:51pm

lurker316

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funkman88 said:

As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna.Then in the 90s he wasn't even a top 20 artist by 2000!Do u think the rise in popularity of rap caused the historic fall?



How are you defining a "successful" career?

a.) Are you defining it by professional accomplishemts resuling in commercial sales?

If that's what you mean, then yes, his career certainly took a downturn after the '80s ... but I don't know how much blame rap derserves for that.

b.) Or are you defining it by professional accomplishments that result in the respect, accolades and admiration of his peers, recognizing him as an all-time-great ?

If that's what you mean, then no, his career continued to be successful until the day he passed.


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Reply #23 posted 12/12/21 4:59pm

lavendardrumma
chine

One of the earliest crossover rap songs was written by Prince.

I really blame New Jack Swing.

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Reply #24 posted 12/12/21 6:45pm

OperatingTheta
n

SNIP - Of4$

Do not instigate, engage in, or encourage 'flame wars'.
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Reply #25 posted 12/12/21 10:44pm

TrivialPursuit

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MickyDolenz said:

Phase3 said:

Ever notice that most of today's country music doesn't sound very country at all and more like pop music?

That could be said about Barbara Mandrell, Crystal Gayle, or Kenny Rogers in the 1970s/1980s. Even Dolly Parton made some disco & dance music songs. I think many people have this idea that country is supposed to sound like the Beverly Hillbillies theme song, like bluegrass or something. In the 1940s, a lot of country hits don't sound much different from crooner pop such as Perry Como. They often had the same vocal style, but maybe the instrumentation was a bit different. Dean Martin & Sammy Davis Jr released country albums and Ray Charles has several. There's Bob Wills who had jazz elements in his country songs in the 1950s, which was labeled as "western swing". Willie Nelson has released jazz records. There's also the case that back in the 1960s & 1970s many of the same Nashville session musicians played on country and soul/R&B records. If you listen to some country and R&B of the era. They sound similar, like I Can't Wait Any Longer by Bill Anderson & Ain't Gonna Bump No More by Joe Tex. Both songs were produced by the same guy (Buddy Killen). Bobbie Gentry, Charlie Rich, Babara Mandrell, Charlie Daniels, Ronnie Milsap & other country acts sometimes had R&B, blues, gospel, and even funk in their songs. Ronnie Milsap & Conway Twitty both started out as straight R&B singers and Kenny Rogers started out as a bass player in a jazz trio. Elvis Presley's earlier music was played on both country & R&B radio stations. Rockabilly is sort of country and R&B mixed together. When it first originated, "country & western" itself was basically just blues by rural white singers mixed with folk. The slide guitar sound in country & blues came from traditional Hawaiian music. In the 1920s & 1930s, there were black & white jug bands. Jug band music is considered traditional country today.


First, of course country has a pop appeal. They know how to mass market. That sorta started with Garth Brooks, and his crossover hits like "Thunder Rolls" and "Friends in Low Places." However, pop music today still sounds like country - it's just new country. But music evolves and changes.

But yes, 40 years ago, Barbara Mandrell had "Crackers" on radio all over. Crystal Gayle had "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue," Kenny's "The Gambler" was everywhere. We even did a big dance to it in sixth grade during a talent show.

To the response: I love that people know where Ronnie & Conway started, as well as Kenny. And really, country & western is the white man's R&B or blues. Such a great example of this is the whitewashing of "One Night Only" in Dreamgirls. And how the white people's bland-ass version was a hit on radio. So these folks, while great artists, took black music and it became country. Elvis did the same thing with his version of rock n' roll.

And if we're talking about people doing other's music, remember that Tina Turner did both disco and country; probably to pay the bills, but she did it. Dolly is so much more than "9 to 5" or "Jolene." Hell, it was her song that a Black woman used to have a #1 hit all over the damn place.

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #26 posted 12/13/21 3:14am

Free2BMe

TrivialPursuit said:



laytonian said:




funkman88 said:


As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna.Then in the 90s he wasn't even a top 20 artist by 2000!Do u think the rise in popularity of rap caused the historic fall?


Behind Madonna? That's a joke.
Behind Jackson? That's also a joke.

Maybe his records didn't sell as much every year, BUT he had the #1 (money-making) concert tour of 2004. He was constantly honored by his peers and recognized as THE musical genius of his era.




Do you even see what you're typing? Who cares about 2004, and we know that was a fluke w/ the sales of Musicology. The statement was, "As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna."

Thriller is the biggest album of all time, Purple Rain wasn't. Could've been, but it wasn't. MJ hit at just the right time. Music of the very early 80s was in flux. Everything from a new thing called rap music, to new wave groups like Blondie, punk groups... all sorts of stuff trying to find its space. Then MJ just shows up with "Billie Jean" and the world loses its collective mind. That helped establish what was allowed in 80s pop music. It was growth. The Jupiter keyboard, the Linn (all over Thriller, by the way), etc.

MJ, simply because of timing, got a jump on things. Not because it was earlier or came out before PR, but just because it was a vulnerable spot in music. 80s music didn't have a personality, a face; hadn't self-identified until Thriller blew in throughout 1983 (it was released December 1982).

So yeah, MJ ahead of Prince is totally viable. That's saying something considering MJ didnt directly tour for Thriller, instead opting (against his better judgment it seems) to record with his brothers, release Victory, then tour on that album (and barely, if at all, playing songs from that album). The Victory Tour was essentially the Thriller Tour - two years later. But what was happening two years later? Purple Rain.

So for MJ to still be ahead of Prince is pretty outstanding. You can't live in a vacuum and assume Prince had #1 this and that across the board. We know better. That doesn't take away from his success, but you have to rightly divide the truth here.

Prince can be recognized as this or that, and that's fine. But that's in hindsight, not in the moment. He released more, but even you said he didn't sell as much. And if you're figuring hard numbers from sales, tours, money made - instead of your purple-tinted glasses opinion - then MJ probably comes out ahead of that, even a little bit.

Madonna's another whole argument, but I can see how she slayed that, too. Hell, she formed her career based on what Prince had done, so it is no wonder she's in that final three.



yeahthat
[Edited 12/13/21 3:15am]
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Reply #27 posted 12/13/21 3:33am

Vannormal

funkman88 said:

As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna.Then in the 90s he wasn't even a top 20 artist by 2000!Do u think the rise in popularity of rap caused the historic fall?

''destroy'' is the wrong word tbh.

Things went the way they went,

and all artists have an obvious shelf life date.

Even Prince.

Young people follow an artist as a fan (not a true fan) for 5-8 years.

I read that somewhere...

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves.
And wiser people so full of doubts"
(Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #28 posted 12/13/21 4:29am

eyewishuheaven

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Vannormal said:

funkman88 said:

As Prince finished the 80s he was the 3rd biggest artist of the decade behind Michael & Madonna.Then in the 90s he wasn't even a top 20 artist by 2000!Do u think the rise in popularity of rap caused the historic fall?

''destroy'' is the wrong word tbh.

Things went the way they went,

and all artists have an obvious shelf life date.

Even Prince.

Young people follow an artist as a fan (not a true fan) for 5-8 years.

I read that somewhere...


That's a good point. Viewed through the same lens, everyone's career is 'destroyed' at some point. By the time U2 were giving their album away for free, they were mocked for it.


[Edited 12/13/21 4:30am]

PRINCE: the only man who could wear high heels and makeup and STILL steal your woman!
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Reply #29 posted 12/13/21 7:39am

skywalker

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Nope. Prince's career always was full of commerical peaks and valleys. After Purple Rain, Prince didn't really have a "blockbuster" selling album until Batman.

-

Sure, ATWIAD, Parade, SOTT, and Lovesexy are genius albums for all time. Some of the best music ever recorded...yet look at the sales of those albums compared to Def Leppard, Whitney Houston, and Phil Collins.

-

Prince was (as usual) moving too fast for the general commercial audience.

-

Hip hop, if anything, was a boon to Prince's music. Diamonds and Peals dripped with hip hop stylings and it was one of Prince's best selling albums ever.

"New Power slide...."
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