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Thread started 07/08/21 4:17am

PURPLEIZED3121

RE Michael Howe - should we send him a list of albums we KNOW exist..

...as he seems to be relying on stumbling upon them! Likewie a list of DVDs, out-takes etc. He could just look at the Sabotage discography perhaps?!

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Reply #1 posted 07/08/21 4:56am

jfenster

Maybe things aren't labeled very clear...so it wouldnt matter
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Reply #2 posted 07/08/21 5:14am

coldcoffeeandc
ocacola

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PURPLEIZED3121 said:

...as he seems to be relying on stumbling upon them! Likewie a list of DVDs, out-takes etc. He could just look at the Sabotage discography perhaps?!

Absolutely it can do no harm can it?

Who else truly cares excpet he and us! Once we are gone on on this board - we are an aging fanbase and the org is the last site standing (rip housequake and others) how many others have the knowledge we have between us or will truly care?

[Edited 7/8/21 5:15am]

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Reply #3 posted 07/08/21 5:35am

lustmealways

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guys they don't give a shit about well informed fans, they want to the bank and troy carter and mr. howe to go in and find the holy grail and then go on a billion press runs about how "I thought, we have to get this out right now. the fans are going to love it"

no room for our opinions or people who know what they're doing.

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Reply #4 posted 07/08/21 6:19am

databank

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Well, the only problem is that beyond early configs of released albums, there aren't many finsihed albums we know of. Some side projects (MC Flash, The Flesh, the 2 Madhouse 24 records, NPGQ), and some projects we're not even sure were ever completed (such as Beautiful Strange or TRC2, who may just as well be early prototypes for Rave and Musicology for all we know).


http://princevault.com/in...ed_Artists


http://princevault.com/in...Unreleased


If it does exist, a holy grail of mine would be the Madrid 2 Chicago album, for I love the 2 songs supposedly from it Prince gave us back in 2002. This could be the next Welcome 2 America. But how many other finished records are there in the vault?

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #5 posted 07/08/21 7:03am

billymeade

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databank said:

Well, the only problem is that beyond early configs of released albums, there aren't many finsihed albums we know of. Some side projects (MC Flash, The Flesh, the 2 Madhouse 24 records, NPGQ), and some projects we're not even sure were ever completed (such as Beautiful Strange or TRC2, who may just as well be early prototypes for Rave and Musicology for all we know).


http://princevault.com/in...ed_Artists


http://princevault.com/in...Unreleased


If it does exist, a holy grail of mine would be the Madrid 2 Chicago album, for I love the 2 songs supposedly from it Prince gave us back in 2002. This could be the next Welcome 2 America. But how many other finished records are there in the vault?

Exactly. And if they did start releasing, say, stuff like "Rave", this board would be bitching that he chose the Jan 89 version and not the Oct 88 version.

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Reply #6 posted 07/08/21 7:07am

lustmealways

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the simple solution is to release actually comprehensive and good sets and then find a way to get genuine album configs as sequenced back in the day out somehow, rsd exclusive, digital download, seperate cd purchase? i don't give a shit just get them out. it does the material a massive disservice to continually ignored in its album context(s), even if they want to re-release them or release them first in the "vault disc" SDE way. this should've happened for DF, CB, and Camille during the SOTT SDE and it should happen for all configs of rave, etc, going forward. it should've happened for the other W2A sequences as well.

that didn't make a whole lot of sense, but my point is these guys suck and i would do a much better job.

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Reply #7 posted 07/08/21 7:13am

OperatingTheta
n

The Estate don't appear to be interested in us as an audience at all. If anything, I've noted a tinge of disdain from Howe.
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Reply #8 posted 07/08/21 7:15am

databank

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billymeade said:

databank said:

Well, the only problem is that beyond early configs of released albums, there aren't many finsihed albums we know of. Some side projects (MC Flash, The Flesh, the 2 Madhouse 24 records, NPGQ), and some projects we're not even sure were ever completed (such as Beautiful Strange or TRC2, who may just as well be early prototypes for Rave and Musicology for all we know).


http://princevault.com/in...ed_Artists


http://princevault.com/in...Unreleased


If it does exist, a holy grail of mine would be the Madrid 2 Chicago album, for I love the 2 songs supposedly from it Prince gave us back in 2002. This could be the next Welcome 2 America. But how many other finished records are there in the vault?

Exactly. And if they did start releasing, say, stuff like "Rave", this board would be bitching that he chose the Jan 89 version and not the Oct 88 version.

I would say these are different markets.

.

Configurations, I guess, would attract less people than full unreleased albums. Is there a business model for this beyond Bowie's The Gouster (early version of Young Americans) in the mid-70's boxset some years ago? I'm sure it could be done several ways, but if you're gonna release the Jan 89 version you need to be ready to release the Oct 88 version as well. Since expensive boxsets might not want to include 3 or 4 versions of the same record, I can think only of 2 things: niche releases thru an online store (Bandcamp or on the Prince website) aimed at hardcore fans, or limited RSD releases (maybe followed by a digital and/or streaming release some time later, or including a download code at least). Then you could offer a config but let fans know the others are coming sooner or later.

.

Full unreleased albums (even if they contain a track or 2 that were reused later, like TBA did in 94, or W2A this year), I guess they're more suited for an individual release, like live shows.

.

Now let's face it: either the Estate decide they need to open the gates to the vault, and the only way to do this is an online store. Or they (and it seems to be the strategy now) favor a few selected releases a year, and we'll get 2/3 shows and 2/3 CD's of unreleased music a year, + the usual rereleases/remasters. Objectively, this isn't that bad, you still get the equivalent of a studio or live album every 2/3 months each year. But of course, when you know how many outtakes, rehearsals, soundchecks and live shows lie in the vault, you can't help being frustrated.

[Edited 7/8/21 7:16am]

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #9 posted 07/08/21 7:21am

themanfromnept
une

I'm still asking myself why they didn't released Roadhouse Garden.

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Reply #10 posted 07/08/21 7:34am

Strive

OperatingThetan said:

The Estate don't appear to be interested in us as an audience at all. If anything, I've noted a tinge of disdain from Howe.

That's because we rightfully put the boots to him for being a lying snake in the grass, same as every other A&R guy on earth.

The only thing I'll give him credit for is including Wouldn't You Love To Love Me? on Originals.

"When you deny people the option to not pick a side, you may not like the side they'll pick."
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Reply #11 posted 07/08/21 7:35am

JorisE73

themanfromneptune said:

I'm still asking myself why they didn't released Roadhouse Garden.


Because there is no such album?

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Reply #12 posted 07/08/21 7:41am

Vannormal

avatar

lustmealways said:

guys they don't give a shit about well informed fans, they want to the bank and troy carter and mr. howe to go in and find the holy grail and then go on a billion press runs about how "I thought, we have to get this out right now. the fans are going to love it"

no room for our opinions or people who know what they're doing.

-

Kinda like that.

But still... it won't do no harm and we never know for sure how much of a help it can be.

-

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves.
And wiser people so full of doubts"
(Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #13 posted 07/08/21 7:43am

Dandroppedadim
e

Ready Duane's book it strikes me how tricky it is to sequence an album (RE: Romance 1600), creating segues and little bits here and there as he went - it's very difficult to re-create that if there is no finalized master sequence on tape. It's all a bit of a mystery to me, but I guess the cassette sequences he had made aren't good enough quality for an album release (?).

Yes we might know the song titles, but what mix of the songs and how did the tracks flow etc. I don't think Howe&Co. want to create 'frankenstein' albums at this point.

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Reply #14 posted 07/08/21 7:45am

Vannormal

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JorisE73 said:

themanfromneptune said:

I'm still asking myself why they didn't released Roadhouse Garden.


Because there is no such album?

-

Probably the idea of a project excisted.

And a couple of recorded songs. But most possibly no whole album imho.

Although I/we could be wrong.

Nor Lisa or Wendy ever mentioned it as a completed album.

Neither did the other Revolution members.

We know Prince mentioned it somehwere mid 2000, but that's about it.

-

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves.
And wiser people so full of doubts"
(Bertrand Russsell 1872-1972)
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Reply #15 posted 07/08/21 7:49am

themanfromnept
une

JorisE73 said:

themanfromneptune said:

I'm still asking myself why they didn't released Roadhouse Garden.


Because there is no such album?

.

Well, Prince talked about the album in more than one interview, with a partial tracklist. Much of the songs Prince cited were released too, by Prince or Estate. It is very strange to me that Prince planned an album with a tracklist in mind, talked about it, and did not leave any note about it. Could be, but it is strange.

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Reply #16 posted 07/08/21 7:49am

JorisE73

Vannormal said:

JorisE73 said:


Because there is no such album?

-

Probably the idea of a project excisted.

And a couple of recorded songs. But most possibly no whole album imho.

Although I/we could be wrong.

Nor Lisa or Wendy ever mentioned it as a completed album.

Neither did the other Revolution members.

We know Prince mentioned it somehwere mid 2000, but that's about it.

-


the only reported album title with The Revolution was Katrina's Paper Dolls which was reported simultaneously in a US and a Dutch music magazine bacj in 84/85 or so.

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Reply #17 posted 07/08/21 7:53am

JorisE73

themanfromneptune said:

JorisE73 said:


Because there is no such album?

.

Well, Prince talked about the album in more than one interview, with a partial tracklist. Much of the songs Prince cited were released too, by Prince or Estate. It is very strange to me that Prince planned an album with a tracklist in mind, talked about it, and did not leave any note about it. Could be, but it is strange.


All I know is that Prince wanted Wendy and Lisa to (co)produce the album.. but only if they denounced there lesbian relationship and pretend or fool themselves into believing they were straight.
Katrina's Paper Dolls is the only title i've seen mentioned as a Revolution album back in the 80s.

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Reply #18 posted 07/08/21 7:53am

BartVanHemelen

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databank said:

Since expensive boxsets might not want to include 3 or 4 versions of the same record, I can think only of 2 things: niche releases thru an online store (Bandcamp or on the Prince website) aimed at hardcore fans, or limited RSD releases (maybe followed by a digital and/or streaming release some time later, or including a download code at least).


.

How many bloody times do I need to bring up the example of Stooges box sets that include EVERY KNOWN SECOND OF STUDIO RECORDINGS? Including studio chatter etc. and dozens of takes of the same songs? For the Stooges, a band that sold a fraction of what Prince sold.

.

They could easily do comprehensive box sets with multiple versions; hell, I'd even appreciate cassette sourced versions if proper mixdowns aren't available (they can try to recreate those from the multi-tracks, but I'd be more interested in the actual tapes from that era). Go the Bob Dylan route, where there are several levels of box sets, and make the expensive ones worth it by including tons of music instead of including a bleh book and improperly documented tracks.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #19 posted 07/08/21 7:55am

themanfromnept
une

Vannormal said:

JorisE73 said:


Because there is no such album?

-

Probably the idea of a project excisted.

And a couple of recorded songs. But most possibly no whole album imho.

Although I/we could be wrong.

Nor Lisa or Wendy ever mentioned it as a completed album.

Neither did the other Revolution members.

We know Prince mentioned it somehwere mid 2000, but that's about it.

-

.

Well, if I rememeber correctly Prince mentioned the album, but also different tracks, more than "a couple":

Roadhouse Garden

Splash

Wonderfull Ass

Empty Room

All My Dreams

Witness For The Prosecution

In A Large Room With No Light

I think 2 or 3 songs are still missing from the final tracklist.

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Reply #20 posted 07/08/21 7:58am

JorisE73

themanfromneptune said:

Vannormal said:

-

Probably the idea of a project excisted.

And a couple of recorded songs. But most possibly no whole album imho.

Although I/we could be wrong.

Nor Lisa or Wendy ever mentioned it as a completed album.

Neither did the other Revolution members.

We know Prince mentioned it somehwere mid 2000, but that's about it.

-

.

Well, if I rememeber correctly Prince mentioned the album, but also different tracks, more than "a couple":

Roadhouse Garden

Splash

Wonderfull Ass

Empty Room

All My Dreams

Witness For The Prosecution

In A Large Room With No Light

I think 2 or 3 songs are still missing from the final tracklist.


I really think this was just something he was toying with and nothing sequenced, especially if he wanted W&L to produce the album.
A bit like those album advertised for the NPGMC (Last December, Teh Best of prince, Madrid 2 Chicago) I don't think any of these albums exist other then what he was planning.

[Edited 7/8/21 7:59am]

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Reply #21 posted 07/08/21 8:01am

databank

avatar

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

Since expensive boxsets might not want to include 3 or 4 versions of the same record, I can think only of 2 things: niche releases thru an online store (Bandcamp or on the Prince website) aimed at hardcore fans, or limited RSD releases (maybe followed by a digital and/or streaming release some time later, or including a download code at least).


.

How many bloody times do I need to bring up the example of Stooges box sets that include EVERY KNOWN SECOND OF STUDIO RECORDINGS? Including studio chatter etc. and dozens of takes of the same songs? For the Stooges, a band that sold a fraction of what Prince sold.

.

They could easily do comprehensive box sets with multiple versions; hell, I'd even appreciate cassette sourced versions if proper mixdowns aren't available (they can try to recreate those from the multi-tracks, but I'd be more interested in the actual tapes from that era). Go the Bob Dylan route, where there are several levels of box sets, and make the expensive ones worth it by including tons of music instead of including a bleh book and improperly documented tracks.

I'd missed the Stooges references. Indeed, their fame is much lesser than P's. Now IDK which format is best, but of course I'd be glad to have more if not everything.

.

I also glad to know I'm not the only one who'd rather have authentic cassette mixdowns than modern recreations. Or, at least, have someone who actually did work with Prince do the new mix: I can't believe that all the engineers Prince employed in his career were unavailable, so the Estate had to call Niko Bolas or that other guy who did NC2U. Not that they're not pros, but using them makes new mixes sound all the more unauthentic.

.

But as with everything that would be redundant to everyone but us hardcore fans (like 7 different edits of an outtake, or some shows or rehearsals), there must be a way to release the mixdowns alongside new mixes for the joy of mainstream audiences and audiophiles.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
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Reply #22 posted 07/08/21 8:04am

themanfromnept
une

JorisE73 said:


I really think this was just something he was toying with and nothing sequenced, especially if he wanted W&L to produce the album.
A bit like those album advertised for the NPGMC (Last December, Teh Best of prince, Madrid 2 Chicago) I don't think any of these albums exist other then what he was planning.

[Edited 7/8/21 7:59am]

.

This could be. Maybe he never sequenced the album, but *maybe* he wrote somewhere the tracklist he was thinking about.

TBH I think the "super deluxe the vault cds" are a more more Frankenstein listen than some coherent prince "album" based on his notes or dreams...

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Reply #23 posted 07/08/21 8:04am

lustmealways

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gonna have to +1 the cassette mixdowns. if they found a way to release these alongside the ones from the masters i would go for the cassette mixdowns all the way. bold generation, for instance, has a certain feeling to it that none of the other tracks on the 1999 sde do, not to mention the historical value in listening to the music as it was intended v.s. whatever the estate's latest MO is

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Reply #24 posted 07/08/21 8:16am

lustmealways

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aside from the sets not being what they should be, which i've voiced many times, my other issue is like... ok let's take for example these other 2 W2A configs that howe magically found on a cd-r. i have not seen them, but i am willing to bet there are tracks on those that are not on this config they're releasing, and very likely even more tracks recorded during that year around the same general time that may have been considered for the project, or not, but my point is if not now with this release in some way, how do they plan to release those? think about how many random show recordings they must have just sitting there, how many for the sott tour, how many for the 1999 tour? if they don't get those out in some way when they're doing a release "based on" the era, and i mean that in the loosest possible terms because none of the releases have done the eras justice, when do they plan to get this stuff out?

i can think of no other path than some sort of online store or subscription. either that or they have no plan at all, which is probably far more likely.

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Reply #25 posted 07/08/21 10:13am

leecaldon

BartVanHemelen said:

databank said:

Since expensive boxsets might not want to include 3 or 4 versions of the same record, I can think only of 2 things: niche releases thru an online store (Bandcamp or on the Prince website) aimed at hardcore fans, or limited RSD releases (maybe followed by a digital and/or streaming release some time later, or including a download code at least).


.

How many bloody times do I need to bring up the example of Stooges box sets that include EVERY KNOWN SECOND OF STUDIO RECORDINGS? Including studio chatter etc. and dozens of takes of the same songs? For the Stooges, a band that sold a fraction of what Prince sold.

.

They could easily do comprehensive box sets with multiple versions; hell, I'd even appreciate cassette sourced versions if proper mixdowns aren't available (they can try to recreate those from the multi-tracks, but I'd be more interested in the actual tapes from that era). Go the Bob Dylan route, where there are several levels of box sets, and make the expensive ones worth it by including tons of music instead of including a bleh book and improperly documented tracks.

This would be great.

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Reply #26 posted 07/08/21 11:17am

TrivialPursuit

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You guys act like Michael Howe, who has probably literally touched everything in the famous vault doesn't know what's in front of him! The dude's job is to fucking catalog things. That means, listen to it, make notes, make a list, a fucking spreadsheet, starts an Access database or whatever to forever keep these things in check.

The fact that you know sixteen versions of "Computer Blue" exist doesn't mean anything to Howe or the estate. They know what we know, 100 times over.

Y'all think that someone, many, or just one person, doesn't have the same level of fandom a few folks on the Org do? that we're somehow more enlightened to all things Prince, and the very people taking care of his legacy (including music, clothes, property, etc) are just bumbling around over there?

All those things in the Sabatoge discography, as it were, came from many sources. Howe is at ground zero. All those songs we've traded and called our own when we probably shouldn't have but did anyway, Howe has heard the original. He's heard the master tape. He's written it down, sorted it. Knows more about it than any Per Nilsen, Duane Tudahl, Dave Hill, Alan Light, Toure, or Alex Hahn (not that any of those guys are uninformed, clearly most did their homework as best they could at the time) knows?

Just because they know we know what exists doesn't obligate them to releasing it to us. I could walk up to Paisley Park and yell, "I know you have those 'Raspberry Beret' cloud boots in there!" Doesn't mean they're going to run out and say, "Yessur, here they are just for you!"

Fans needs to just have a seat. Simmah do'n nah!

"eye don’t really care so much what people say about me because it is a reflection of who they r."
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Reply #27 posted 07/08/21 12:35pm

Dandroppedadim
e

There are 16 versions of Computer Blue!!?? WOW! the Estate need to release those asap!

TrivialPursuit said:

You guys act like Michael Howe, who has probably literally touched everything in the famous vault doesn't know what's in front of him! The dude's job is to fucking catalog things. That means, listen to it, make notes, make a list, a fucking spreadsheet, starts an Access database or whatever to forever keep these things in check.

The fact that you know sixteen versions of "Computer Blue" exist doesn't mean anything to Howe or the estate. They know what we know, 100 times over.

Y'all think that someone, many, or just one person, doesn't have the same level of fandom a few folks on the Org do? that we're somehow more enlightened to all things Prince, and the very people taking care of his legacy (including music, clothes, property, etc) are just bumbling around over there?

All those things in the Sabatoge discography, as it were, came from many sources. Howe is at ground zero. All those songs we've traded and called our own when we probably shouldn't have but did anyway, Howe has heard the original. He's heard the master tape. He's written it down, sorted it. Knows more about it than any Per Nilsen, Duane Tudahl, Dave Hill, Alan Light, Toure, or Alex Hahn (not that any of those guys are uninformed, clearly most did their homework as best they could at the time) knows?

Just because they know we know what exists doesn't obligate them to releasing it to us. I could walk up to Paisley Park and yell, "I know you have those 'Raspberry Beret' cloud boots in there!" Doesn't mean they're going to run out and say, "Yessur, here they are just for you!"

Fans needs to just have a seat. Simmah do'n nah!

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Reply #28 posted 07/08/21 1:22pm

JudasSmile

avatar

JorisE73 said:

themanfromneptune said:

.

Well, Prince talked about the album in more than one interview, with a partial tracklist. Much of the songs Prince cited were released too, by Prince or Estate. It is very strange to me that Prince planned an album with a tracklist in mind, talked about it, and did not leave any note about it. Could be, but it is strange.


All I know is that Prince wanted Wendy and Lisa to (co)produce the album.. but only if they denounced there lesbian relationship and pretend or fool themselves into believing they were straight.
Katrina's Paper Dolls is the only title i've seen mentioned as a Revolution album back in the 80s.

Wendy told me that Prince expected them to fly out to PP at their own expense. They, of course, refused. Of course we don't know if Prince completed the album on his own.

U been bamboozled, hoodwinked, took.
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Reply #29 posted 07/08/21 1:27pm

JudasSmile

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TrivialPursuit said:

You guys act like Michael Howe, who has probably literally touched everything in the famous vault doesn't know what's in front of him! The dude's job is to fucking catalog things. That means, listen to it, make notes, make a list, a fucking spreadsheet, starts an Access database or whatever to forever keep these things in check.

I doubt he has completed cataloguing the whole archive yet, if it is only him doing it. After the music, there is all the video cassettes, notes, etc. Assuming Prince never replaced or threw anything out, the stuff that isn't damaged beyond repair must be a huge archive. We won't live long enough to hear 10% of it, unless the estate increase their output.

U been bamboozled, hoodwinked, took.
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