paraded said:

wilmer said:

lurker316 said: I feel exactly like you with regards to Eric's comments about Prince's music. I heard him talk about this on the Juice Podcast and he sounded genuine on this. It is not a diss, it's just that his idols are people from another era. He came from a different musical sensibility. Even though it is a little bit disappointing, I get it and I respect it.

Even if Eric wasn't personaly a fan of a lot of Prince's music, even much of the music he created with Prince, he still considered Prince a hero of his and a genius. There was an interview I read a while ago where he is clearly in awe of Prince as a musician. And what's more, he acknowledges that guys like Miles Davis -- who was one of Eric's greatest inspirations -- felt a musical kinship with Prince moreso than they did with more sophisticated counterparts. So Eric definitely has a lot of admiration for Prince's musical universe even if he also has ambivlance about a lot of the individual works.

.

I bet he's still bitter about that cape Prince made him wear...

Robbajobba said:

Yeah, what I'm taking from the book is that "Parade" was an incredibly collaborative album for Prince, given the significant input from the Revolution, Clare Fisher, David Z & Mazarati on 'Kiss'.... and that SOTT was a total volte face, a deliberate shunning of those outside influences, and very much a solo record ... Which I guess was always the consensus (at least, before the SDE publicity) - it's just interesting to read about the events leading up to that decision in such detail.

Another thing that occured to me as I read the book is that, barring SOTT, Wendy & Lisa's input on songs from that era was pretty substantial. Prince had them in the studio adding their own overdubs, mixing stuff, writing songs (such as Visions and Colors), etc.

In contrast, Prince didn't seem to give the rest of The Revolution -- Bobby, Mark and Matt -- as many opportunities to put thier own spin on his music. It seems like their main contributions were in inspiring grooves during jam sessions in the warehouse that ended up turing into songs. That's significant and I'm not trying to downplay it, but there's clearly a difference between Prince liking a bass line he hears Mark playing during rehearsal and turning it into a song, versus sending Wendy & Lisa in the studio to do production work.

In other words, Prince clearly drew from Mark and Matt (maybe not Bobby as much), but he didn't count on them to be collaborators the way he did W&L... at least that's the impression I got from the book.

lurker316 said:

Robbajobba said:

Yeah, what I'm taking from the book is that "Parade" was an incredibly collaborative album for Prince, given the significant input from the Revolution, Clare Fisher, David Z & Mazarati on 'Kiss'.... and that SOTT was a total volte face, a deliberate shunning of those outside influences, and very much a solo record ... Which I guess was always the consensus (at least, before the SDE publicity) - it's just interesting to read about the events leading up to that decision in such detail.

Another thing that occured to me as I read the book is that, barring SOTT, Wendy & Lisa's input on songs from that era was pretty substantial. Prince had them in the studio adding their own overdubs, mixing stuff, writing songs (such as Visions and Colors), etc.

In contrast, Prince didn't seem to give the rest of The Revolution -- Bobby, Mark and Matt -- as many opportunities to put thier own spin on his music. It seems like their main contributions were in inspiring grooves during jam sessions in the warehouse that ended up turing into songs. That's significant and I'm not trying to downplay it, but there's clearly a difference between Prince liking a bass line he hears Mark playing during rehearsal and turning it into a song, versus sending Wendy & Lisa in the studio to do production work.

In other words, Prince clearly drew from Mark and Matt (maybe not Bobby as much), but he didn't count on them to be collaborators the way he did W&L... at least that's the impression I got from the book.

Rememebr Lurker, when Prince asked Susannah to draw a cover for Dream Factory he didn't want it credited to 'Prince and the Revolution'. He wanted it credited to 'The Flesh'. Who jammed during the Flesh sessions?

Sheila E. - congas, percussion
Lisa Coleman - piano
Wendy Melvoin - guitar
Levi Seacer, Jr. - bass guitar
Eric Leeds - saxophone

By '86 Prince knew Brown Mark wanted to leave, and he probably already set his heart on replacing Bobby with Sheila. I reckon it was always his intention to dispand the Revolution before his next album, but he also wanted to retain Wendy and Lisa for his new band. At some point in '86 Wendy and Lisa must have also fallen out of favour.

Something that I also think is worth noting is that you can begin to see the shift away from Wendy and Lisa prior to the Parade tour.

If you take a look at how ‘Dream Factory’ was sequenced in June, Wendy and Lisa have really big roles. They have their solo interludes, lead vocals on Wonderful Day and A Place In Heaven, writing credits for Power Fantastic and Large Room with No Lights, they remixed Strange Relationship and Teacher Teacher.

Yet by July Wonderful Day is replaced with Train (which they wern’t involced with), Teacher Teacher is replaced with ‘Slow Love’ which they played on by didn’t help produce, the two killer songs they wrote are cut completely. They are still on the album, but their role has been significently scaled back.

The last studio track he recorded with them (to our knowledge) was Eggplant on the 7^th July which was about five weeks before the tour started. Prince recorded about a dozen songs without their involvment in the meantime. The only other exception was ‘Soul Psychodelicide’, but that was a full band recording during a jam.

VaultCurator said:

Rememebr Lurker, when Prince asked Susannah to draw a cover for Dream Factory he didn't want it credited to 'Prince and the Revolution'. He wanted it credited to 'The Flesh'. Who jammed during the Flesh sessions?

Sheila E. - congas, percussion
Lisa Coleman - piano
Wendy Melvoin - guitar
Levi Seacer, Jr. - bass guitar
Eric Leeds - saxophone

By '86 Prince knew Brown Mark wanted to leave, and he probably already set his heart on replacing Bobby with Sheila. I reckon it was always his intention to dispand the Revolution before his next album, but he also wanted to retain Wendy and Lisa for his new band. At some point in '86 Wendy and Lisa must have also fallen out of favour.

That makes sense, but what about Matt Fink? Why wasn't he more involved with the jam sessions or the in-studio production? I wonder if Prince was thinking about replacing him as well, but kept him for lack of another option?

lurker316 said:

VaultCurator said:

Rememebr Lurker, when Prince asked Susannah to draw a cover for Dream Factory he didn't want it credited to 'Prince and the Revolution'. He wanted it credited to 'The Flesh'. Who jammed during the Flesh sessions?

Sheila E. - congas, percussion
Lisa Coleman - piano
Wendy Melvoin - guitar
Levi Seacer, Jr. - bass guitar
Eric Leeds - saxophone

By '86 Prince knew Brown Mark wanted to leave, and he probably already set his heart on replacing Bobby with Sheila. I reckon it was always his intention to dispand the Revolution before his next album, but he also wanted to retain Wendy and Lisa for his new band. At some point in '86 Wendy and Lisa must have also fallen out of favour.

That makes sense, but what about Matt Fink? Why wasn't he more involved with the jam sessions or the in-studio production? I wonder if Prince was thinking about replacing him as well, but kept him for lack of another option?

Yeah, I wondered this too.

Personally I like to believe that Prince thought Matt was indespensible to him at the time. He spoke very highly of Matt’s abilities in the book. Maybe he didn’t invite Matt to these jams as he didn’t want Bobby to feel singled out? I’m probably wrong though. Who knows what Prince’s intension were.

VaultCurator said:

Yeah, I wondered this too.

Personally I like to believe that Prince thought Matt was indespensible to him at the time. He spoke very highly of Matt’s abilities in the book. Maybe he didn’t invite Matt to these jams as he didn’t want Bobby to feel singled out? I’m probably wrong though. Who knows what Prince’s intension were.

Matt was my favorite Revolution member, so I, too, hope that Prince respected him. A bit off topic, but how did Matt end up leaving Prince's camp after the Lovesexy tour? Did he leave on his own or did Prince let him go? Has that story ever been told?

EDIT: I just found this explanation on Wikipedia. I don't always trust Wikipedia, so I'm wondering if anyone else here can weigh-in:

"Matt Fink remained with Prince until 1991, when similar to the exit of Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis from The Time, Matt Fink told Prince he wasn't available for two dates at the Rock in Rio festival, as he was busy producing for another band at the time, and found himself replaced by Tommy Barbarella.[5] However, Fink also stated in a 2001 interview that he was tired of being in the band. When Prince filmed Graffiti Bridge, Prince wanted Fink to "rehearse the band" and was told that "there wasn't really anywhere in the movie for him." After the ensuing Nude Tour, essentially a greatest hits-type tour, Fink left for a career writing music for video games, and working at K-Tel Records, based out of Minneapolis."

[Edited 6/23/21 14:42pm]

Yeah. Matt confirmed the Rio story in his own words.

I'm pretty sure it's this interview where I heard him tell that story. Can't remember if he spoke about it in part one or two.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usGHTGWIzy8 (part one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFhfEXSYsmE (part two)

I remember him talking about how he was disapointed since he'd been in the band for so long.

LoveGalore said:

Dropping Matt Fink for Tommy B is as insulting as dropping Michael Bland for Kirky J. Sometimes, Prince really was a bonehead.

Agreed.

VaultCurator said:

VaultCurator said:

Yeah. Matt confirmed the Rio story in his own words.

I'm pretty sure it's this interview where I heard him tell that story. Can't remember if he spoke about it in part one or two.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usGHTGWIzy8 (part one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFhfEXSYsmE (part two)

I remember him talking about how he was disapointed since he'd been in the band for so long.

Thanks for those links. The interview is long but always fascinating. It seemed like the interview was trying to give Matt credit for being more involved with the albums than he actually was. Matt eventually went through, album-by-album, and explained how little he contributed:

- Dirty Mind: co-wrote Dirty Mind and soloed on Head
- Controversy: played with the rest of the band on Jack U Off
- Purple Rain: played with the rest of the band on I Would Die 4 U, Baby I'm a Star and Purple Rain
- Sign O' the Times: co-wrote and play on It's Gonna be a Beautiful Night.

He specifically says he didn't play on 1999, Around the World in a Day, Parade or Lovesexy. He doesn't explicitly say so, but the implication is he didn't play on Batman or Graffiti Bridge either.

No surprise, obviously, but it reinforces the idea that Wendy and Lisa were the only Revolution members who significantly contributed, not just in playing isntruments but it wring, mixing and producing.

Seems like Brownmark and Bobby Z may have contributed even less than Matt? They never got any song writing credits or solos, did they?

LoveGalore said:

strongoxman1 said:

I recall somewhere in a thread on here a few months ago that Duane has indicated that while there is certain information he cannot share due to his NDA with The Estate, he can still include information that he also obtains from other, corroborative sources a nd will credit it to whomever provided the corroborating information.

I think his NDA prevents him from disclosing information exclusive to The Estate, which may allow him a little bit of a loophole so long as someone outside of The Estate was made privy, can be located, still remembers it, and is willing to disclose...which is just good research/journalistic practice, anyway.

"Trust, but verify" and all...

[Edited 6/11/21 15:09pm]

It sounds like a bizarre scenario. I wonder why the estate would treat studio session information that way.

If they are planning a release. Just like if the Sign O The Times Deluxe came out after this book...there would have been some conflict of intrest in THEIR release with what THEY put out on the album. I can see that...just like the Purple Rain Sessions did. So many songs left off.

paisleypark4 said:

lurker316 said:

VaultCurator said:

Yeah. Matt confirmed the Rio story in his own words.

I'm pretty sure it's this interview where I heard him tell that story. Can't remember if he spoke about it in part one or two.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usGHTGWIzy8 (part one)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFhfEXSYsmE (part two)

I remember him talking about how he was disapointed since he'd been in the band for so long.

Thanks for those links. The interview is long but always fascinating. It seemed like the interview was trying to give Matt credit for being more involved with the albums than he actually was. Matt eventually went through, album-by-album, and explained how little he contributed:

- Dirty Mind: co-wrote Dirty Mind and soloed on Head
- Controversy: played with the rest of the band on Jack U Off
- Purple Rain: played with the rest of the band on I Would Die 4 U, Baby I'm a Star and Purple Rain
- Sign O' the Times: co-wrote and play on It's Gonna be a Beautiful Night.

He specifically says he didn't play on 1999, Around the World in a Day, Parade or Lovesexy. He doesn't explicitly say so, but the implication is he didn't play on Batman or Graffiti Bridge either.

No surprise, obviously, but it reinforces the idea that Wendy and Lisa were the only Revolution members who significantly contributed, not just in playing isntruments but it wring, mixing and producing.

Seems like Brownmark and Bobby Z may have contributed even less than Matt? They never got any song writing credits or solos, did they?

In his book, Brownmark says Prince promised him a co-writing credit for "Kiss", and told him it was a 'mistake' when he was just credited with "handclaps". Not sure what to believe, but Prince's credits never seemed that accurate - and handclaps does feel like a deliberate diss.

Robbajobba said:

lurker316 said:

Seems like Brownmark and Bobby Z may have contributed even less than Matt? They never got any song writing credits or solos, did they?

In his book, Brownmark says Prince promised him a co-writing credit for "Kiss", and told him it was a 'mistake' when he was just credited with "handclaps". Not sure what to believe, but Prince's credits never seemed that accurate - and handclaps does feel like a deliberate diss.

Why would Brownmark get credit for Kiss? Because he was producing Mazzarati? Even so, I thought David Z was the one who shaped the song for Mazarrati, not Brownmark?

On page 99 in Duane's book, Mazarati's Suzy is listed (as Suzi - a BrownMark demo) but the text doesn't clarify why. Did Prince work on that track? I kinda doubt it.

Mazarati has said they wanted to be like Aerosmith, so it's interesting that Aerosmith did Dude Looks Like A Lady just a couple of years after Mazarati's Suzy.

It's a fun track. I like it even though it ain't Prince.

[Edited 6/26/21 13:53pm]

lurker316 said:

Robbajobba said:

In his book, Brownmark says Prince promised him a co-writing credit for "Kiss", and told him it was a 'mistake' when he was just credited with "handclaps". Not sure what to believe, but Prince's credits never seemed that accurate - and handclaps does feel like a deliberate diss.

Why would Brownmark get credit for Kiss? Because he was producing Mazzarati? Even so, I thought David Z was the one who shaped the song for Mazarrati, not Brownmark?

Well according to his autobiography it was a joint effort. Talking about Prince giving the song to Mazarati for their album, he says: "...if he [Prince] is hell-bent on us putting this song on our album, then I'm gonna put some Brown stank on it and see if we can make something of it. David Rivkin is the engineer and co-producer with me, and he agrees we need to do something to make the song work. So I rebuild the song from scratch and put a groove behind it. It starts to sound even better when David [loops] the guitar channel through the gate, triggering it with the hi-hat."

He also says there's another song that Prince liked so much "he had the band work on it and put it in the movie [UTCM]. I was never credited for that song, either".

Even if Brownmark's recollections about who did more production work on Kiss are faulty, in the context of the friction between him and Prince over Mazarati and other things (which it doesn't sound like he's making up), a 'handclaps' credit seems (at best) like a mean-spirited joke.

[Edited 6/26/21 9:38am]

lurker316 said:

Robbajobba said:

In his book, Brownmark says Prince promised him a co-writing credit for "Kiss", and told him it was a 'mistake' when he was just credited with "handclaps". Not sure what to believe, but Prince's credits never seemed that accurate - and handclaps does feel like a deliberate diss.

Why would Brownmark get credit for Kiss? Because he was producing Mazzarati? Even so, I thought David Z was the one who shaped the song for Mazarrati, not Brownmark?

Is it any wonder why Prince axed the Revolution...all the whining, angleing and $$$ tensions must have been stressful.

jdcxc said:

Is it any wonder why Prince axed the Revolution...all the whining, angleing and $$$ tensions must have been stressful.

I don't think it was whining. It sounds more like musicians wanting to be recognized for what they offer and Prince refusing to give credit. Prince must have realized it when he saw that the direction his music took after getting rid of everyone that brought something like that to his music, was not connecting with the audience like it was in the later half of the 80s. It was still good music, it just wasn't great.

Bighead said:

jdcxc said:

I don't think it was whining. It sounds more like musicians wanting to be recognized for what they offer and Prince refusing to give credit. Prince must have realized it when he saw that the direction his music took after getting rid of everyone that brought something like that to his music, was not connecting with the audience like it was in the later half of the 80s. It was still good music, it just wasn't great.

Huh? Diamonds and Pearls sold more than Parade and ATWIAD combined...not that it matters. And The Revolution's influence is waaay overstated. The problem is that Prince Music was always 95% Prince, so the bandmembers and associates always fight for the other 5%.

jdcxc said:

Bighead said:

I don't think it was whining. It sounds more like musicians wanting to be recognized for what they offer and Prince refusing to give credit. Prince must have realized it when he saw that the direction his music took after getting rid of everyone that brought something like that to his music, was not connecting with the audience like it was in the later half of the 80s. It was still good music, it just wasn't great.

Huh? Diamonds and Pearls sold more than Parade and ATWIAD combined...not that it matters. And The Revolution's influence is waaay overstated. The problem is that Prince Music was always 95% Prince, so the bandmembers and associates always fight for the other 5%.

And that "5%" seems to make a whole lotta difference in sound and what has remained what most people think of as Prince's best era. Not just one person or a minority of the music buying public saying it

stuck in the 80s

Bighead said:

LoveGalore said:

Bighead said:

And that "5%" seems to make a whole lotta difference in sound and what has remained what most people think of as Prince's best era. Not just one person or a minority of the music buying public saying it

Most people like Drake's music too, idk what your point is about that.

WTF?

LMAO he says wtf like it was the most egregious comment anyone has ever said

lustmealways said:

LMAO he says wtf like it was the most egregious comment anyone has ever said

Very reactive comment there, snowflake. WTF does Drake have to do with Prince and the Revolution, is what that was about

Bighead said:

Bighead said:

lustmealways said:

LMAO he says wtf like it was the most egregious comment anyone has ever said

Very reactive comment there, snowflake. WTF does Drake have to do with Prince and the Revolution, is what that was about

You stated that most of the general public prefers Prince's '80s music, which you believe is a sign that it's better than what came after. His point about Drake is that the general public's taste in music is not a good judge of the quality of music. In other words, the fact that Prince's music connected with more people in the '80s doesn't, in and of itself, mean it's necessarily better.