soladeo1 said:

Any song titles no ones ever heard about??

According to Susan Rogers, last time she looked at the vault which was around '85, there were 700-800 songs. Cat said the last she worked there, probably '89, there were 2000 songs. That's a lot of song titles noone's ever heard about.

Somebody should compile a list of the songs mentioned in the book if it's not too much trouble.

tab32792 said:

rlittler81 said:

I think they’re pretty much all in there, Duane makes a few educated guesses here and there. The impression I got was that he was almost impulsed to be in the studio everyday. Like, he didn’t necessarily enjoy it, he just had to do it to get the music out. I think he enjoyed The Flesh and Madhouse sessions as they were more like fun to him. To direct, score and make a film, do live shows, get engaged, create several albums for himself and other artists as well record nearly every day… it’s almost overwhelming to read. It all comes crashing down at the end of the book though. He lost so much by the end of 1986. [Edited 6/11/21 12:23pm]

And yet he gained so much. He took control of his career again. Starting working alone again. That’s what got him his record deal. Not fiancées or band members. He also got a new and much improved band behind him. It’s more of a rebirth than a swan song

I meant more in emotional terms. I think he lost a lot due to his need to constantly work... that he never lost.

[Edited 6/12/21 2:02am]

I'm waiting to see the contrast between Per Nielsen's work and this.

lustmealways said:

i have to hold in a giggle everytime i read that prince's original version was issued on the 2019 posthumous compilation originals

My understanding is that some of the Originals mixes are as faithful as could be, but of course when it comes to the well-established-until-proven-otherwise frankensteining, it's a real pity if the topic isn't being addressed at all in the book.

From a purely journalistic/historian/researcher ethical perspective, it certainly raises some questions, but it's a little hard to comment this situation until Duane publicly addresses the topic, since we don't know what took place behind the scenes nor what kind of pressure he may or may not have been under.

.

This being said...

.

1/ It's a very little thing concerning very few songs in the mass of material being discussed in the books.

.

2/ It's utterly ridiculous to have certain people insist on focusing on each and every little flaw they can think of with Duane's work, when his work is overall not only remarkable in terms of quality, but also something no one else in the whole bloody world is either willing to, nor capable of accomplishing at the moment.

If not for Duane, all the new info in these books would be lost forever, and one can only be grateful and pray that Duane keeps at it, and that if he won't or isn't able to cover Prince's 40+ years of recording sessions in 20 or so books, someone else will show the skills and motivation to finish the job (spoiler: it probably ain't ever gonna happen, so let's be grateful for what we have).

.

3/ As anyone being accused of anything, Duane has the right to answer critics and justify, if needs be, his decisions. I would assume he probably won't do it here given how many mad dogs are after his ass on this board, but I certainly hope that he'll eventually do it somewhere else, where there's less hostility (on his FB page or some interview maybe?). If/when he choses to do it, anyone throwing accusations should give him the respect of listening.

.

4/ Other accusations are plain ridiculous, because saying that "Duane won't reveal information he obtained from the Estate while working with the Estate because he works with the Estate" is nonsensical, since he wouldn't have had the informations he can't reveal if he hadn't worked with the Estate anyway, and one can't reveal information one doesn't have, can they?

Anyone still not acknowledging this is either remarkably unintelligent (because it means they don't understand the most basic principles of causality), or remarkably dishonest.

.

When all is said and done, I will never have nothing but utter respect and gratitude for Duane, because his meticulous, hard work is essential to Prince's legacy. And I can only prey and hope that he'll keep doing it for many more years since, as I said, if he won't, no one else will.

.

Peace y'all

.

[Edited 6/12/21 9:40am]

databank said:

lustmealways said:

i have to hold in a giggle everytime i read that prince's original version was issued on the 2019 posthumous compilation originals

My understanding is that some of the Originals mixes are as faithful as could be, but of course when it comes to the well-established-until-proven-otherwise frankensteining, it's a real pity if the topic isn't being addressed at all in the book.

From a purely journalistic/historian/researcher ethical perspective, it certainly raises some questions, but it's a little hard to comment this situation until Duane publicly addresses the topic, since we don't know what took place behind the scenes nor what kind of pressure he may or may not have been under.

.

This being said...

.

1/ It's a very little thing concerning very few songs in the mass of material being discussed in the books.

.

2/ It's utterly ridiculous to have certain people insist on focusing on each and every little flaw they can think of with Duane's work, when his work is overall not only remarkable in terms of quality, but also something no one else in the whole bloody world is either willing to, nor capable of accomplishing at the moment.

If not for Duane, all the new info in these books would be lost forever, and one can only be grateful and pray that Duane keeps at it, and that if he won't or isn't able to cover Prince's 40+ years of recording sessions in 20 or so books, someone else will show the skills and motivation to finish the job (spoiler: it probably ain't ever gonna happen, so let's be grateful for what we have).

.

3/ As anyone being accused of anything, Duane has the right to answer critics and justify, if needs be, his decisions. I would assume he probably won't do it here given how many mad dogs are after his ass on this board, but I certainly hope that he'll eventually do it somewhere else, where there's less hostility (on his FB page or some interview maybe?). If/when he choses to do it, anyone throwing accusations should give him the respect of listening.

.

4/ Other accusations are plain ridiculous, because saying that "Duane won't reveal information he obtained from the Estate while working with the Estate because he works with the Estate" is nonsensical, since he wouldn't have had the informations he can't reveal if he hadn't worked with the Estate anyway, and one can't reveal information one doesn't have, can they?

Anyone still not acknowledging this is either remarkably unintelligent (because it means they don't understand the most basic principles of causality), or remarkably dishonest.

.

When all is said and done, I will never have nothing but utter respect and gratitude for Duane, because his meticulous, hard work is essential to Prince's legacy. And I can only prey and hope that he'll keep doing it for many more years since, as I said, if he won't, no one else will.

.

Peace y'all

.

[Edited 6/12/21 9:40am]

He stated on the Dr Funk Podcast he's working on Book 3 which will either be 87-88 or 87-89 so we will have more facts and knowledge. People who try to find reasons to diss Duane really need to grow up, this is not middle school.

databank said:

.

4/ Other accusations are plain ridiculous, because saying that "Duane won't reveal information he obtained from the Estate while working with the Estate because he works with the Estate" is nonsensical, since he wouldn't have had the informations he can't reveal if he hadn't worked with the Estate anyway, and one can't reveal information one doesn't have, can they?

Anyone still not acknowledging this is either remarkably unintelligent (because it means they don't understand the most basic principles of causality), or remarkably dishonest.

.

[Edited 6/12/21 9:40am]

To be fair, Duane outright said this during an interview. I get your point, and I understand it's literally beyond his control and who among us would turn down an offer to work for the estate if they requested our help (i'd like to think i could resist the brain rot that comes with the job), but it's still frustrating. Again, not blaming Duane (what's the alternative? he pulls the book?) but I guess it's just irritating to think about and frustrating that we may never get a truly comprehensive look at any era because of this attitude.

You're right, though. I don't mean to provoke, and I probably have been too snide even if I still believe a lot of my complaints are valid. Some things just feel plastic and it's hard not to comment about it.

[Edited 6/12/21 16:56pm]

databank said:

4/ Other accusations are plain ridiculous, because saying that "Duane won't reveal information he obtained from the Estate while working with the Estate because he works with the Estate" is nonsensical,

.

Where does this NDA have effects?

lustmealways said:

databank said:

.

4/ Other accusations are plain ridiculous, because saying that "Duane won't reveal information he obtained from the Estate while working with the Estate because he works with the Estate" is nonsensical, since he wouldn't have had the informations he can't reveal if he hadn't worked with the Estate anyway, and one can't reveal information one doesn't have, can they?

Anyone still not acknowledging this is either remarkably unintelligent (because it means they don't understand the most basic principles of causality), or remarkably dishonest.

.

[Edited 6/12/21 9:40am]

To be fair, Duane outright said this during an interview. I get your point, and I understand it's literally beyond his control and who among us would turn down an offer to work for the estate if they requested our help (i'd like to think i could resist the brain rot that comes with the job), but it's still frustrating. Again, not blaming Duane (what's the alternative? he pulls the book?) but I guess it's just irritating to think about and frustrating that we may never get a truly comprehensive look at any era because of this attitude.

You're right, though. I don't mean to provoke, and I probably have been too snide even if I still believe a lot of my complaints are valid. Some things just feel plastic and it's hard not to comment about it.

Again, I would like to point out a logical inconsistancy. That reasoning would be accurate assuming Duane would have listed, and gotten a copy of each and every recording in the vault, and that he has a definitive knowledge of each and everything P ever recorded in his life thanks to the Estate. Then, maybe indeed he could "take the data and run", break his word and face legal action for the heroic sake of journalism, because he'd never need the Estate anymore for his research anyway.

.

Obviously, it's not the case. Whatever few new informations he got from the Estate would be connected to a specific project, i.e. him working on liner notes for said project (1999 and SOTT and apparently D&P so far). So besides being paid for the job, he has more to gain in terms of his research by staying around than by burning bridges forever (and ruining his reputation in the music industry along the way).

.

Any journalist would tell you that "off the record" informations are still useful, even if you can't use them, because it gives you a broader sense of context, and it's also possible that in a far future, you may finally be able to reveal them (for example, if the source dies or if, in our case, the Estate changes their policy thanks to someone new being in charge). This is why journalists like "off the record" informations: even if they can't reveal them, they're far from useless for what they do.

.

On a sidenote, my comment wasn't against you. As one of the 2 people who, alongside Neversin, started the whole online outcry regarding Originals, I certainly would have cringed when I'd have read that, say, "P's original version of NC2U was finally released on Originals". But I'm trying to understand where Duane is coming from before judging his actions, let alone denouncing him online

[Edited 6/13/21 0:38am]

udo said:

databank said:

4/ Other accusations are plain ridiculous, because saying that "Duane won't reveal information he obtained from the Estate while working with the Estate because he works with the Estate" is nonsensical,

.

Where does this NDA have effects?

I'm not sure I understand your question but a NDA means "you can't tell what you've learned working for/with me". Obviously some people understand this as "you can't tell anything about me", which is plain legal nonsense.

.

If this is the meaning of your question, no, the Estate cannot prosecute Duane for revealing something he's learned from, say, Susan Rogers. And since Duane is likely to record all his interviews for the sake of accuracy, he can prove where he's learned most everything he's learned outside of the Estate, so the Estate couldn't bully him if they ever wanted to.

.

End of debate. Please make a little cognitive effort to understand the situation (not you in particular, it's no personal attack, but everyone pulling that shit over and over, thread after thread, when it's really no rocket science to understand the situation).

databank said:

udo said:

.

Where does this NDA have effects?

I'm not sure I understand your question but a NDA means "you can't tell what you've learned working for/with me". Obviously some people understand this as "you can't tell anything about me", which is plain legal nonsense.

.

If this is the meaning of your question, no, the Estate cannot prosecute Duane for revealing something he's learned from, say, Susan Rogers. And since Duane is likely to record all his interviews for the sake of accuracy, he can prove where he's learned most everything he's learned outside of the Estate, so the Estate couldn't bully him if they ever wanted to.

.

End of debate. Please make a little cognitive effort to understand the situation (not you in particular, it's no personal attack, but everyone pulling that shit over and over, thread after thread, when it's really no rocket science to understand the situation).

.

Well...

I did not see an NDA mentioned.

So I asked politely (not knowing the NDA text) where it would have effects.

Of course the general rules, as you explained, work.

But the fine print is unknown.

.

I did make an effort but lacked information.

So I asked.

And so far: what Duane learsns via the Estate he cannot publish.

But what if he finds confirmation outside, in someone else? (from the band?)

Then we have sort of proof that the info was known elsewhere.

Hmm?

I will start reading Duane's book after I'm done with my current book.

.

Also: please buy Duane's book and do not download it illegally. This is an important project to support.

Tokyo said:

Per and Duane collaborate I think. And seem to go back a long way to the Uptown magazine days (which he discusses at the start of the recent “How Can U Just Leave Me Standing?” Podcast) In answer to the Q posted at the top of this thread - favourite story so far is the Prince goes to Rio on holiday (for a v brief break from the relentless recording sessions). Apparently he found it hard to switch high heeled boots for flip flops. ;o) T

This will be very interesting .

udo said:

And so far: what Duane learsns via the Estate he cannot publish.

But what if he finds confirmation outside, in someone else? (from the band?)

Then we have sort of proof that the info was known elsewhere.

Hmm?

As far as I've gathered, if he knows something only through his time working with the estate, he would have to have the information shared with him by an associate or through non-estate means before it could go in his book, thus cancelling out the fact that he only knew it via estate work.

olb99 said:

I will start reading Duane's book after I'm done with my current book.

.

Also: please buy Duane's book and do not download it illegally. This is an important project to support.

Agreed. But why isn't it released yet through Amazon if the actual release date was June 10th? I can't even buy a digital copy yet from Amazon. How are people reading it yet?

ThirdStrike said:

ThirdStrike said:

olb99 said:

I will start reading Duane's book after I'm done with my current book.

.

Also: please buy Duane's book and do not download it illegally. This is an important project to support.

Agreed. But why isn't it released yet through Amazon if the actual release date was June 10th? I can't even buy a digital copy yet from Amazon. How are people reading it yet?

.

I bought my (digital) copy via Amazon.

I preordered my copy a long time ago on Amazon France and it will be delivered on June 17th so i'm fine with the delay.

I can wait a few days. I'd rather have the hard book in hands rather than reading the digital copy on my laptop screen.

fortuneandserendipity said:

Ok, so it sounds like he's not got access to all of the studio logs.

.

Those logs are occasionally incomplete, plus Prince did lots of recording on tour in local studios plus during soundchecks etc. Plus the same song was worked on several times, so when what was done exactly is lost in the fog of time. Susan Rogers has already expressed how sorry she is for not keeping a proper diary.

.

Perhaps he would be able to compile a slightly more detailed/accurate book if he could use the info gathered by the Estate, but then we don't know many of the daily cassette tapes were kept and whether those contained enough details to determine what was done etc. It's a shame the Estate is so pointlessly secretive about that.

ThirdStrike said:

olb99 said:

I will start reading Duane's book after I'm done with my current book.

.

Also: please buy Duane's book and do not download it illegally. This is an important project to support.

Agreed. But why isn't it released yet through Amazon if the actual release date was June 10th? I can't even buy a digital copy yet from Amazon. How are people reading it yet?

.

Nonsense. It has been available on Kindle since 7 June.

databank said:

2/ It's utterly ridiculous to have certain people insist on focusing on each and every little flaw they can think of with Duane's work, when his work is overall not only remarkable in terms of quality, but also something no one else in the whole bloody world is either willing to, nor capable of accomplishing at the moment.

.

If Prince hadn't been an absolute ass to his fans since the mid-/late-1990s and beyond, I bet we'd have today a set of websites that would be incredible in both content and fucntionality. But when the early efforts were actively sabotaged and attacked by Prince and his crew, lots of people just gave up and became passive. Props to the Uptown crew for keep going for several years after that, but even they called it quits in the mid-2000s.

.

Still, it is questionable whether many of the sources Duane had access to in recent years would have talked at all, considering they didn't even talk to him until his first book got published and they got a bug up their asses for not being featured. (And let's be honest, Prince's death also allowed a lot of people to open up and talk more freely.)

.

But it is a great shame the Estate is so secretive, when honestly they should be more open. We're never going to get the dozens of mixdowns that only exist on cassette tape, we'll never be able to compare those versions and loot for differences, we'll never be able to somewhat accurately document the various versions a song (or album) went through. I can somewhat understand that they want to hold on to a few secrets WRT upcoming deluxe editions of Prince's 1980s albums, but at the same time it's ashame that Tudahl's books might be somewhat outdated in places in the future.

.

How many more books will we get? 1987-88 will be a logical one, and I can see that it might stretch to 1989 considering that Prince started working at PP and thus there are far less outside sources available (and perhaps there aren't even accurate studio logs for Prince's work at PP). And then I can see him doing a "prequel" book. Perhaps there's too much for a 1977-1982 book, but then perhaps there is not considering that a lot of work Prince did in that era was at his home studio, and thus again: a lack of documentation.

as long as the people who are in charge remain in charge there will continue to be ridiculous secrecy and mythmaking, half assed releases, and a lack of respect for the finer intricacies of this material.

let's be honest, things could be a lot worse, but things could also be a lot better. i hope at some point the estate lets go just a bit and lets duane or someone else do an as-in-depth-as-possible book or document on the recordings. as bort said, for a lot of the stuff outside of sunset sound/the 80s there's almost no way to cover it in-depth without the estate access.

BartVanHemelen said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Ok, so it sounds like he's not got access to all of the studio logs.

.

Those logs are occasionally incomplete, plus Prince did lots of recording on tour in local studios plus during soundchecks etc. Plus the same song was worked on several times, so when what was done exactly is lost in the fog of time. Susan Rogers has already expressed how sorry she is for not keeping a proper diary.

.

Perhaps he would be able to compile a slightly more detailed/accurate book if he could use the info gathered by the Estate, but then we don't know many of the daily cassette tapes were kept and whether those contained enough details to determine what was done etc. It's a shame the Estate is so pointlessly secretive about that.

-

Exactly !

-

Anyone else surprised to see some of these song lengths?

Heaven - 8:03

The Dawn - 14:51

Venus de Milo - 5:22

...or the fact "Girl" started out as a Vanity-sung "Boy"?

...or that "Euphoria Highway" is just the end coda of the song and the rest is entirely different?

LoveGalore said:

Anyone else surprised to see some of these song lengths?

Heaven - 8:03

The Dawn - 14:51

Venus de Milo - 5:22

...or the fact "Girl" started out as a Vanity-sung "Boy"?

...or that "Euphoria Highway" is just the end coda of the song and the rest is entirely different?

I'm not surprised that it's longer than what we have because it always sounded to me like the beginning of that track is missing, it's as if you just stumble into it halfway through.

LoveGalore said:

Tokyo said:

Per and Duane collaborate I think. And seem to go back a long way to the Uptown magazine days (which he discusses at the start of the recent “How Can U Just Leave Me Standing?” Podcast) In answer to the Q posted at the top of this thread - favourite story so far is the Prince goes to Rio on holiday (for a v brief break from the relentless recording sessions). Apparently he found it hard to switch high heeled boots for flip flops. ;o) T

That goes along with what Wally and/or Big Chick wrote: that when P took off his heels, he had to walk around on his tiptoes. Poor, poor feet were ruined long before the fuzzy boots came along.

I’ve gone through the book and I’ve put together a list of all of the newly tracked recordings in chronological order. The list excludes older songs that have been pulled out of storage for additional overdubs and mixing.

Here’s some statistics (providing I haven’t made any mistakes which I probably have)…

Total number of new Prince recordings between 1985-1986: 181
Number that have been released: 109 (60.22%)
Additional number that have leaked: 33 (18.23%)
Remaining unreleased & not leaked: 39 (21.55%)

Total number of new Prince recordings (1985 only): 76
Number that have been released: 36 (47.37%)
Additional number that have leaked: 22 (28.95%)
Remaining unreleased & not leaked: 18 (23.68%)

Total number of new Prince recordings (1986 only): 105
Number that have been released: 73 (69.52%)
Additional number that have leaked: 11 (10.48%)
Remaining unreleased & not leaked: 21 (20%)

edit for line breaks

[Edited 6/18/21 20:28pm]

VaultCurator said: