This was a great interview series. It was very interesting to hear how Peggy M. developed her career and the routine of studio interraction.

>

I think that Prince really dug her.
>

I'm still laughing to myself over the "2 bandannas" joke!

mediumdry said:

I loved both episodes. I even loved Dweezil. For those that think he was stanning for EVH... for one thing, since the untimely death of EVH, he is currently doing a series going into the live and times of EVH: Runnin' With The Dweezil, so it's his current top of mind thing. I don't agree though, for instance, with the When Doves Cry he goes out of his way to talk about how the guitar tone of Prince on When Doves Cry is different than Prince's "regular" tone. This is true. Lastly... Dweezil comes from a rock and faster=better school of guitar playing. Personally, I think that's a lot of wanking (Steve Vai, Yngwie and, yes, EVH) and noodling (Frank Zappa and lots of jazz/fusion players) and I think Prince played circles around them. But that's just my opinion and there's a lot of "reader's-poll-voting-motherfuckers"* out there that feel differently.

.

Whiever way you slice it though (I think Peggy later on actually mentions the Jerk by name as in "the soandso debacle"), I think this is a great document and simply shows how we need to get Don Batts, Peggy Mac, David Z, David Leonard, David Tickle, Femi Jiya and all those engineers who I can't recall right this minute (finishing the wine bottle) together and give them a day of reminiscing and comparing and contrasting recording techniques/microphones/gear/etc.

.

After that we can do the same for assorted associates from Grand Central to 3EG, but to be honest, I think that would actually be less enlightning.

.

*1 (one) Internet for anyone catching that reference

[Edited 3/9/21 11:49am]

I think Sunset Sound made a mistake including Dweezil in this roundtable. I suppose he was there because Peggy had engineered w/ VH as well as Prince. I would have preferred a separate interview w/Peggy re: VH just to remove DW's energy.

He felt to me to be overly challenging of Peggy. There were times when I actually blocked him out with my hand. His body language was impatient.He also said he knew little of Prince's catalogue which made him impatient to 'get on with it and talk about VH'

I really like VH, btw.

[Edited 3/9/21 12:52pm]

Germanegro said:

This was a great interview series. It was very interesting to hear how Peggy M. developed her career and the routine of studio interraction.

>

I think that Prince really dug her.
>

I'm still laughing to myself over the "2 bandannas" joke!

Yes, Indeed. Prince thanks her for her "patience" in the PR liner notes.

Margot said:

mediumdry said:

I loved both episodes. I even loved Dweezil. For those that think he was stanning for EVH... for one thing, since the untimely death of EVH, he is currently doing a series going into the live and times of EVH: Runnin' With The Dweezil, so it's his current top of mind thing. I don't agree though, for instance, with the When Doves Cry he goes out of his way to talk about how the guitar tone of Prince on When Doves Cry is different than Prince's "regular" tone. This is true. Lastly... Dweezil comes from a rock and faster=better school of guitar playing. Personally, I think that's a lot of wanking (Steve Vai, Yngwie and, yes, EVH) and noodling (Frank Zappa and lots of jazz/fusion players) and I think Prince played circles around them. But that's just my opinion and there's a lot of "reader's-poll-voting-motherfuckers"* out there that feel differently.

.

Whiever way you slice it though (I think Peggy later on actually mentions the Jerk by name as in "the soandso debacle"), I think this is a great document and simply shows how we need to get Don Batts, Peggy Mac, David Z, David Leonard, David Tickle, Femi Jiya and all those engineers who I can't recall right this minute (finishing the wine bottle) together and give them a day of reminiscing and comparing and contrasting recording techniques/microphones/gear/etc.

.

After that we can do the same for assorted associates from Grand Central to 3EG, but to be honest, I think that would actually be less enlightning.

.

*1 (one) Internet for anyone catching that reference

[Edited 3/9/21 11:49am]

I think Sunset Sound made a mistake including Dweezil in this roundtable. I suppose he was there because Peggy had engineered w/ VH as well as Prince. I would have preferred a separate interview w/Peggy re: VH just to remove DW's energy.

He felt to me to be overly challenging of Peggy. There were times when I actually blocked him out with my hand. His body language was impatient.He also said he knew little of Prince's catalogue which made him impatient to 'get on with it and talk about VH'

I really like VH, btw.

[Edited 3/9/21 12:52pm]

i agree with you,Dweezil come of as rude and dismissive when she said that Van Halen was ok but not her kind of music.I don't think Dweezel likes Prince as a guitarist.he said Prince played very good but i think he was polite and that he didn't hear a lot of Prince.But i think she bought him after a while and he did enjoy stories about Prince

Q: "What's your favourite Prince song?"

Dweezil: "I don't know all of his work, only what i hear on the radio, so I'll say "Purple Rain."

...says it all.

rlittler81 said:

Q: "What's your favourite Prince song?"

Dweezil: "I don't know all of his work, only what i hear on the radio, so I'll say "Purple Rain."

...says it all.

-

That !

-

But still i love the complete different approach on 'guitar' by both Dwezil and Prince.

No comparisson.

Dwezil was more into the art apporach of jazz and rock and avant garde.

Prince never had that avant garde and art approach.

Both are extremely good in what they respectively do/did.

Dwezil had the advantage of having his fantastic dad Frank around him,

and received the knowlegde and know how from the first spoon on.

Prince wanted to have his fantastic dad more around, only heard his dad play, and then left alone again, but he was a self made musician, on all instruments. Beat that.

-

[Edited 3/10/21 4:35am]

I don't really see why Dweezil not being a Prince fan but being a huge VH fan should constitute a problem. I can see where him trying to steer the conversation a few times might be annoying but, like I said, the VH fans who listened to this were probably itching for them to move on from talking about Prince and get back to Eddie.

The whole show wasn't just supposed to be The Peggy & Prince Hour, I don't think, since she worked with a lot of other artists and the podcasts were about the studio itself, not any one person. Prince was just one artist she worked with, albeit probably the main one ("I was HIS whenever he came in")

In part 1, who is she dissing at 42:46 as mass manufactured music? "Electric Light music"

"ELO"???

Did I hear that wrong?

ufoclub said:

In part 1, who is she dissing at 42:46 as mass manufactured music? "Electric Light music"

"ELO"???

Did I hear that wrong?

You heard it right but "ELO" was someone guessing. I think here saying "Electric Light Music" was a description, not her naming someone but I could be wrong.

Certainly no shartage of candidates for the "mass munufactured music" label though. Then or now for that matter. I don't see ELO on the client's list on their website so my guess would be somebody like Mr. Mister

https://www.sunsetsound.com/ourhistory/

Vannormal said:

Prince never had that avant garde and art approach.

-

[Edited 3/10/21 4:35am]

WHAT???

nayroo2002 said:

Prince didn't know what the fuck avant garde was.

"Irresistable Bitch"

"Scarlett Pussy"

"Hello"

"200 Balloons"

"Computer Blue (Extended Version)"

I guess i don't know what genre "avant art" is, either

2freaky4church1 said:

Prince didn't know what the fuck avant garde was.

"When Doves Cry" seemed (is?) avante garde. So is "Solo". So is "Pheremone". Even "Batdance". "Rave unto the Joy Fantastic" "Bob George"

"Crystal Ball", "Sign o' the Times", "Forever in My Life"

Those all seem avante gard in the top 40 music scene which was his arena of business. Even "Kiss" because of the mix, not the core song structure.

Even "I would Die 4 U" or "3121"

What the hell sounds like those?

"Rebirth of the Flesh"

These are more unique than the idea of improvised jazz, unless people mean the first year jazz was improvised.

[Edited 3/10/21 15:05pm]

Vannormal said:

rlittler81 said:

Q: "What's your favourite Prince song?"

Dweezil: "I don't know all of his work, only what i hear on the radio, so I'll say "Purple Rain."

...says it all.

-

That !

-

But still i love the complete different approach on 'guitar' by both Dwezil and Prince.

No comparisson.

Dwezil was more into the art apporach of jazz and rock and avant garde.

Prince never had that avant garde and art approach.

Both are extremely good in what they respectively do/did.

Dwezil had the advantage of having his fantastic dad Frank around him,

and received the knowlegde and know how from the first spoon on.

Prince wanted to have his fantastic dad more around, only heard his dad play, and then left alone again, but he was a self made musician, on all instruments. Beat that.

-

[Edited 3/10/21 4:35am]

Really? i think Prince was avant garde on guitar during 1982-1983 era when he created a unique and very weird lead guitar style with lots of dissonance .solos on Drive Me Wild extended 12 inch

Automatic,Lady Cab Driver,ATCLUINY and the most famous example When Doves Cry Intro but after 1984 Prince went into more classic guitar hero mode.1999 era solos are anti guitar what if Prince was funky Robert Fripp

ufoclub said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Prince didn't know what the fuck avant garde was.

"When Doves Cry" seemed (is?) avante garde. So is "Solo". So is "Pheremone". Even "Batdance". "Rave unto the Joy Fantastic" "Bob George"

"Crystal Ball", "Sign o' the Times", "Forever in My Life"

Those all seem avante gard in the top 40 music scene which was his arena of business. Even "Kiss" because of the mix, not the core song structure.

Even "I would Die 4 U" or "3121"

What the hell sounds like those?

"Rebirth of the Flesh"

These are more unique than the idea of improvised jazz, unless people mean the first year jazz was improvised.

[Edited 3/10/21 15:05pm]

All great examples. Some Ppl on the Org have become too familiar with Prince. Hell, even the Lets Go Crazy 12" is "avante garde" with fresh ears.

Germanegro said:

Well, Prince would incorporate exotic sounds in2 his songs/tunes structure but he didn't innovate like doing something free jazz, or really-out-there improvisation or creating some new genre of music--is the thought expressed here if I'm not mistaken. It's a reasonable point. nayroo2002 said:

WHAT???

-

Exactly that.

-

What I would like to understand with Avant Garde music is what these people or bands who develloped somehow into complete different styles ;

David Sylvian,

Ryuichi Sakmoto,

Brian Eno,

David Bowie (Berlin years),

Mark Hollis,

David Byrne,

Patti Smith,

Radiohead,

Thom Yorke,

Moloko,

(...etc. Just naming a few...)

-

And that doesn't mean that Prince needed or had to move into other directions too.

He did what he did all his life in the utmost devoted and genius way,

and that's being innovative in his own uncomparable and unique style.

There just is no other Prince. He actually didn't needed an Avant Garde approach in his fantastic oeuvre.

-

2freaky4church1 said:

Prince didn't know what the fuck avant garde was.

-

I have to agree, but that's ok.

He was truely so different in his own original style.

Prince in a jeans and T, or is Maison Martin Margiella clothes... it just wouldn't be Prince.

The guy wore his style with proud and dignity.

That alone is extraordinay in pop and rock.

-

Don't bash me, this is my personal opinion / thought ;

from all his different 'styles' throughout his enitre carreer,

he was able to lift a form of 'kitsch' to something acceptable and utterly unique for a very wide range of audience.

-

Sure, some songs were well accepted in the Art and Avant Garde circles.

I hate to say this cause it sounds so unnecessary divisive and slightly arrogant...

But to me he certainly was no Avant Garde or Contemporary-Art artist / musician.

Prince was / is undeniable his own uncategorized style.

-

ufoclub said:

2freaky4church1 said:

Prince didn't know what the fuck avant garde was.

"When Doves Cry" seemed (is?) avante garde. So is "Solo". So is "Pheremone". Even "Batdance". "Rave unto the Joy Fantastic" "Bob George"

"Crystal Ball", "Sign o' the Times", "Forever in My Life"

Those all seem avante gard in the top 40 music scene which was his arena of business. Even "Kiss" because of the mix, not the core song structure.

Even "I would Die 4 U" or "3121"

What the hell sounds like those?

"Rebirth of the Flesh"

These are more unique than the idea of improvised jazz, unless people mean the first year jazz was improvised.

-

Well, one thing is for sure, certainly not all Jazz is Avant Garde.

And those Prince songs you mention may sound as misfits / mavericks in the POP and ROCK charts, or Prince's play field of business as you rightfully name it, but they remain pop or rock.

-

Yes prince incorporated non commercial arrangements in his music.

Even his sound was often unconventional.

One of the big reasons why we all like him so much.

-

There are so many more popular Jazz styles who have not much / nothing to do whatsoever with Avant Garde music (for example).

The use of Jazz or Jazz arrnagements aren't specifically Avant Garde or Art releated too.

It's just too difficult to clarify that in a few posts here.

I can recommend books that can do that much more clearly and better than me.

-

Oh, and don't mix Avant Garde music with Avant-Pop.

Some explanations :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde_music

-

Peace

-

[Edited 3/10/21 23:44pm]

People are overlooking that in fact Prince did creat avant garde guitar style but he did it for a short time,cause that style was too weird for general public ,if he didn't switch to regular guitar hero he would be hailed as funky Robert Fripp based on his 1983-1983 playing

Vannormal said:

ufoclub said:

"When Doves Cry" seemed (is?) avante garde. So is "Solo". So is "Pheremone". Even "Batdance". "Rave unto the Joy Fantastic" "Bob George"

"Crystal Ball", "Sign o' the Times", "Forever in My Life"

Those all seem avante gard in the top 40 music scene which was his arena of business. Even "Kiss" because of the mix, not the core song structure.

Even "I would Die 4 U" or "3121"

What the hell sounds like those?

"Rebirth of the Flesh"

These are more unique than the idea of improvised jazz, unless people mean the first year jazz was improvised.

-

Well, one thing is for sure, certainly not all Jazz is Avant Garde.

And those Prince songs you mention may sound as misfits / mavericks in the POP and ROCK charts, or Prince's play field of business as you rightfully name it, but they remain pop or rock.

-

Yes prince incorporated non commercial arrangements in his music.

Even his sound was often unconventional.

One of the big reasons why we all like him so much.

-

There are so many more popular Jazz styles who have not much / nothing to do whatsoever with Avant Garde music (for example).

The use of Jazz or Jazz arrnagements aren't specifically Avant Garde or Art releated too.

It's just too difficult to clarify that in a few posts here.

I can recommend books that can do that much more clearly and better than me.

-

Oh, and don't mix Avant Garde music with Avant-Pop.

Some explanations :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde_music

-

Peace

-

[Edited 3/10/21 23:44pm]

My opinion: They don't remain pop or rock. In fact, I suspect they alienate some of the sunny day audience that liked him to stay in the pop/rock/R&B lane. They (in some ways) break the mold structurally, lyrically, in timing, arrangement, and often intent. It's that last bit of intent that really is avante garde in my opinion. Our interpertation of his intent is where the art is functioning. That's the deep energy, because we can't know intent for certain. We interpret it.

The wiki entry you linked perfectly describes the directions Prince was going in some of those tracks.

"Avant-garde music pursues novelty in musical form and style, insisting that art is above everything else; thus, it creates a transcendental and mysterious sound world." That looped growl synth in Le Grind is a touch of it.

Now the key is that it is all still within the form of music. A mutation of his influences, but some times he really put it through some Princely radiation.

PS: I listened to Wagner, and Ligeti (mentioned in the wiki entry) back in the early 80's before I ever deemed top 40 music was worth my deeper attention. I even have a Krzysztof Penderecki playlist on Spotify for the car.

I mean listen to this track by me: https://soundcloud.com/uf...eys-edited

[Edited 3/11/21 6:03am]

I like the wild primal sounds that he generated from his guitar at the end of "My Private Joy." if he were to have done a piece of that structure with say percussion and keyboard accompaniement it would be very interesting to me along the avant garde vein.

>

Maybe he created an archive of such things for his own amusement that is awaiting some intrepid engineers to stumble upon and foist upon the market. Man, that would be glorious!

thebanishedone said:

People are overlooking that in fact Prince did creat avant garde guitar style but he did it for a short time,cause that style was too weird for general public ,if he didn't switch to regular guitar hero he would be hailed as funky Robert Fripp based on his 1983-1983 playing

I can get with ufoclub's points here, as well--very cool conversation going on! I've heard bits an snatches of Prince's sound sculptures sampled by some exotic electronica acts so I guess that could serve as an example of Prince's intended sound treatments extracted and blended into even more exploratory forms of music pieces. After first noting his blending of popular music styles, his subtle influence upon even more unconventional genres perhaps can be seen as steering avant garde movements as well. It's an intersting thought at least. I wonder what Peggy Mac's take on that would be!

>

ufoclub said:

Vannormal said:

-

Well, one thing is for sure, certainly not all Jazz is Avant Garde.

And those Prince songs you mention may sound as misfits / mavericks in the POP and ROCK charts, or Prince's play field of business as you rightfully name it, but they remain pop or rock.

-

Yes prince incorporated non commercial arrangements in his music.

Even his sound was often unconventional.

One of the big reasons why we all like him so much.

-

There are so many more popular Jazz styles who have not much / nothing to do whatsoever with Avant Garde music (for example).

The use of Jazz or Jazz arrnagements aren't specifically Avant Garde or Art releated too.

It's just too difficult to clarify that in a few posts here.

I can recommend books that can do that much more clearly and better than me.

-

Oh, and don't mix Avant Garde music with Avant-Pop.

Some explanations :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avant-garde_music

-

Peace

-

[Edited 3/10/21 23:44pm]

My opinion: They don't remain pop or rock. In fact, I suspect they alienate some of the sunny day audience that liked him to stay in the pop/rock/R&B lane. They (in some ways) break the mold structurally, lyrically, in timing, arrangement, and often intent. It's that last bit of intent that really is avante garde in my opinion. Our interpertation of his intent is where the art is functioning. That's the deep energy, because we can't know intent for certain. We interpret it.

The wiki entry you linked perfectly describes the directions Prince was going in some of those tracks.

"Avant-garde music pursues novelty in musical form and style, insisting that art is above everything else; thus, it creates a transcendental and mysterious sound world." That looped growl synth in Le Grind is a touch of it.

Now the key is that it is all still within the form of music. A mutation of his influences, but some times he really put it through some Princely radiation.

PS: I listened to Wagner, and Ligeti (mentioned in the wiki entry) back in the early 80's before I ever deemed top 40 music was worth my deeper attention. I even have a Krzysztof Penderecki playlist on Spotify for the car.

I mean listen to this track by me: https://soundcloud.com/uf...eys-edited

[Edited 3/11/21 6:03am]

Q: "What is 'avant-garde' music and did Prince ever record in that genre?"

A: "Uhhhh....NO! I mean YES!"

no...

Vannormal said:

Germanegro said:

Well, Prince would incorporate exotic sounds in2 his songs/tunes structure but he didn't innovate like doing something free jazz, or really-out-there improvisation or creating some new genre of music--is the thought expressed here if I'm not mistaken. It's a reasonable point. nayroo2002 said:

-

Exactly that.

-

What I would like to understand with Avant Garde music is what these people or bands who develloped somehow into complete different styles ;

David Sylvian,

Ryuichi Sakmoto,

Brian Eno,

David Bowie (Berlin years),

Mark Hollis,

David Byrne,

Patti Smith,

Radiohead,

Thom Yorke,

Moloko,

(...etc. Just naming a few...)

-

And that doesn't mean that Prince needed or had to move into other directions too.

He did what he did all his life in the utmost devoted and genius way,

and that's being innovative in his own uncomparable and unique style.

There just is no other Prince. He actually didn't needed an Avant Garde approach in his fantastic oeuvre.

-

Don't take my comments out of context, girl!!!

I was "WHAT???"ing YOU and your far fetched claim that Prince didn't have an "art approach".

herb4 said:

Rainbow Children is very avant garde and out there

When Peggy mentions Eric Bennett, did anyone else shout, "Eric 'the best' Bennett!"?

herb4 said:

Margot said:

I think I may have to listen again as I thought it was a piano player but am not completely certain. I was surmising as I seem to remember her saying he was demanding a second piano.

Same, but I think I heard her say it was a "big (at the time) piano player" or something like that and, if I read her right, she didn't want to out the guy, said something about "editing it out later" (which is why we can't hear it) and also the fact that she earlier said something about being able to talk shit about someone who was already dead tells me that the person is still alive.

So, assuming this was around 1980-1985, that really limits the list of possible names.

- Male. Known as a piano player primarily.
- Fairly big and had a hit or two (at the time)
- Still alive
- Recorded at Sunset at least once, and seems like he was known as a solo act, not as part of a band

So I get: Elton John, Billy Joel, Phil Collins, Lionel Ritchie and...?

She'd already gushed about Elton John so I strike him. I can't come up with a ton of piano players there and have never heard a ton of negative stories about the ones I looked up.

It was really cute listening to her crushing on Eddie Van Halen and really trying to bed the guy.

I'm going with Joe Jackson because he left me a 5% tip, sent back a glass of water for having "too much ice in it" and insulted another waitress who politely asked him for an autograph. That guy sucked.

Tom Waits..?

simm0061 said:

herb4 said:

Same, but I think I heard her say it was a "big (at the time) piano player" or something like that and, if I read her right, she didn't want to out the guy, said something about "editing it out later" (which is why we can't hear it) and also the fact that she earlier said something about being able to talk shit about someone who was already dead tells me that the person is still alive.

So, assuming this was around 1980-1985, that really limits the list of possible names.

- Male. Known as a piano player primarily.
- Fairly big and had a hit or two (at the time)
- Still alive
- Recorded at Sunset at least once, and seems like he was known as a solo act, not as part of a band

So I get: Elton John, Billy Joel, Phil Collins, Lionel Ritchie and...?

She'd already gushed about Elton John so I strike him. I can't come up with a ton of piano players there and have never heard a ton of negative stories about the ones I looked up.

It was really cute listening to her crushing on Eddie Van Halen and really trying to bed the guy.

I'm going with Joe Jackson because he left me a 5% tip, sent back a glass of water for having "too much ice in it" and insulted another waitress who politely asked him for an autograph. That guy sucked.

Tom Waits..?

I think it's Jackson Browne...there were allegations re: his issues w/several women...