If Kanye West is a "genius," I want to be dumb as fuck!

funkman88 said:

fen said:

Awarding Lionel Richie "best album" over Purple Rain in 1985 is a striking case in point. 1999 wasn't even nominated alongside Thriller in 1984, so it's not strictly true that MJ kicked Prince's "azz" - Prince wasn't even in the race, and that's a reflection of how out-of-touch the grammys were, not a reflection of the quality and relevance of the work.

yes you are correct it was best R&B vocal male Billie Jean over International Lover and R & B song and all the other R&B categories that night at the shrine auditorium michael kicked his azz up and down hollywood blvd in all the black music categories 1984 ,he was depressed and lookin sader than when he slapped appolonia and she climbed out the window into Morris bed!

[Edited 2/23/21 11:47am]

Now try and defend the Lionel Richie thing and keep a straight face That alone makes a mockery of the whole foundation upon which your argument is based. Perhaps I should use bold text to ram the point home?

[Edited 2/23/21 19:11pm]

ForbiddenFruit said:

fen said:

I'm not sure that's true, major award ceremonies tend to limp behind the real innovations happening in culture and they tend to favour those working within mainstream forms and methods. Take someone like David Lynch, whose always managed to work within the system - I don't think he's ever won an Oscar has he? (apart from a perfunctory Honorary award late in the day) And yet he's undoubtedly the one of the most interesting and important American directors in the history of the medium, and his ongoing influence will outshine 99% of the Academy winners over the last 40 years. They can't even reward genius when it's right under their noses, let alone keep in step with what's happening in culture more broadly
.

David Lynch is a very good example, I consider Mulholland Drive to be the greatest work of art ever. 

Did he get an Oscar? No. But he was nominated for best director for this film and also for Elephant Man 

and Blue Velvet - and that too is recognition (apart from the honorary Oscar two years ago). 

The Oscars nominations are very high quality. 

Just because of the nominations I watched Marriage Story last week, and I have to say, 

those nominations or awards for these acting performances were well deserved.

I take your point and wouldn't argue that they never award deserving winners, but consider who Lynch lost to on those occasions:

A Beautiful Mind (Ron Howard) and Platoon (Stone). They're not awful films I suppose, but neither come close to the innovative use of the medium of Lynch's work, nor will they be considered historically important.

Because they're establishment bodies run by establishment figures, they often only recognise the really important work after the event, like Lynch's honorary Oscar or Aphex Twin's Grammy, or once the influence of those original innovators has seeped into the broader language of the medium and it becomes a "genre".

grantevans said:

funkman88 said:

yes you are correct it was best R&B vocal male Billie Jean over International Lover and R & B song and all the other R&B categories that night at the shrine auditorium michael kicked his azz up and down hollywood blvd in all the black music categories 1984 ,he was depressed and lookin sader than when he slapped appolonia and she climbed out the window into Morris bed!

[Edited 2/23/21 11:47am]

Outing himself as a MJ fanboy, funkman begs to be banned from the org. MJ's time is done. A man with sad sexual tastes and a very thin catalogue and an inability to play instruments. [Edited 2/23/21 17:45pm]

wrong again....Not a MJ fanboy i just call it like it is...its been documented that Prince was upset after the losses to MJ at the grammys in 1984...just like he was pissed he lost to U2 with Sign o the times ,,,u gonna say im a U2 fanboy? im black! I dont know 1 song by them!

my top 3 is

1. JAMES BROWN

2. PRINCE

3.MICHAEL JACKSON

BOTH MJ AND PRINCE were lazy compafed to brown ..he did over 200 shows a year

funkman88 said:

grantevans said:

funkman88 said: Outing himself as a MJ fanboy, funkman begs to be banned from the org. MJ's time is done. A man with sad sexual tastes and a very thin catalogue and an inability to play instruments. [Edited 2/23/21 17:45pm]

wrong again....Not a MJ fanboy i just call it like it is...its been documented that Prince was upset after the losses to MJ at the grammys in 1984...just like he was pissed he lost to U2 with Sign o the times ,,,u gonna say im a U2 fanboy? im black! I dont know 1 song by them!

my top 3 is

1. JAMES BROWN

2. PRINCE

3.MICHAEL JACKSON

BOTH MJ AND PRINCE were lazy compafed to brown ..he did over 200 shows a year

Sad that you need to use your skin color to convice or validate for yourself the false notion that U2 fanboys are only white.
Prince worked harder than both. James Brown did a shitload of shows but Prince recorded 10 times as much as they did combined and this is from an MJ 'fanboy'.

I remember when all hell broke loose when Herbie Hancock and Steely Dan FINALLY won AOTY grammies.

CynicKill said:

I remember when all hell broke loose when Herbie Hancock and Steely Dan FINALLY won AOTY grammies.

Boomers

How many Org accounts do you have? Jeez.

I am not sure there is a more universally adored musical "genius" of the 20th century.


7 grammy wins is laughable, but remember he was at war with the establishment (which included awards shows) for at least a decade worth of awards, actually, but who knows how long that friction echoed further.


I don't know how much you know about sports, but just as a matter of comparison, Michael Jordan is a 2nd tier basketball player to Bill Russell, by awards status (11 to 6).

For a LARGE part of Prince's most dynamic years, he didn't play the award game.

pdiddy2011 said:

I am not sure there is a more universally adored musical "genius" of the 20th century.


7 grammy wins is laughable, but remember he was at war with the establishment (which included awards shows) for at least a decade worth of awards, actually, but who knows how long that friction echoed further.


I don't know how much you know about sports, but just as a matter of comparison, Michael Jordan is a 2nd tier basketball player to Bill Russell, by awards status (11 to 6).

For a LARGE part of Prince's most dynamic years, he didn't play the award game.

lol establishment? it was just WB.stop makin excuses...

djdaffy1227 said:

Prince only has seven grammys so the grammys should be considered second level in my book.

Can't believe this idiotic thread made it to a second page.

Rimshottbob said:

Can't believe this idiotic thread made it to a second page.

and u took time to post on it so what does that make u? THE KING OF THE .......

They have so many MORE categories now.
When I see Adele or Beyonce with an armful (five or so) because they won in duplicative categories, my blood boils a bit. Prince got what...six while alive?

laytonian said:

They have so many MORE categories now.
When I see Adele or Beyonce with an armful (five or so) because they won in duplicative categories, my blood boils a bit. Prince got what...six while alive?

but prince cant dance like those 2 either

funkman88 said:

laytonian said:

They have so many MORE categories now.
When I see Adele or Beyonce with an armful (five or so) because they won in duplicative categories, my blood boils a bit. Prince got what...six while alive?

but prince cant dance like those 2 either

The guy's dead what do you expect??
When he was alive he danced better than no dancing Adele and whatever Beyonce tries to apss off as dancing.
Oh wait, your'e that troll again, nevermind.

funkman88 said:

Do u think this is a fair assesment by his peers of his talent overall?

.

Sure, he passed to soon so he could not receive the other grammy awards.

Also, not all genius has to be expressed in grammy awards to be at genius level.

Consensus is enough.

One of Chaka Khan's biggest hits was Prince's 'I Feel for You' -- she won a grammy for it in 1985. Sinead O'Connor received a Grammy for the album which featured Prince's 'Nothing Compares 2 U' -- likely the only song most remember from the album -- it was a platinum worldwide hit, spending weeks at the top of Billboard.

I doubt Prince put out albums like 'Dirty Mind' or singles like 'If I Was Your Girlfriend' with the intention of collecting grammies. Warners didn't even want to put out Little Red Corvette, according to engineer Peggy McCreary, but Prince said out she goes.

The Beatles received 4 grammies while they were a group; Jimi Hendrix won 3 grammies (1992, 1999, 2009 - he died in 1970); Alison Krauss has 27 grammies.

So why not go to Alison's forum if grammies are your thing.

[Edited 3/8/21 18:27pm]

The Grammys are a joke. They only started awarding dance category awards in 2005. So when would The Orb's sophomore album be represented, or an album like Underworld's Dubnobassinmyheadman?


And they've never featured a best metal/hard rock album award either. Oh yeah, we'll have best rock album. So we put Rage Against the Machine and Matchbox 20 in the same category, that happened in 2001. That's like putting Hank Williams and Sepultura in the same category because they both have guitars. Piss off.

fen said:

ForbiddenFruit said:

David Lynch is a very good example, I consider Mulholland Drive to be the greatest work of art ever. 

Did he get an Oscar? No. But he was nominated for best director for this film and also for Elephant Man 

and Blue Velvet - and that too is recognition (apart from the honorary Oscar two years ago). 

The Oscars nominations are very high quality. 

Just because of the nominations I watched Marriage Story last week, and I have to say, 

those nominations or awards for these acting performances were well deserved.

I take your point and wouldn't argue that they never award deserving winners, but consider who Lynch lost to on those occasions:

A Beautiful Mind (Ron Howard) and Platoon (Stone). They're not awful films I suppose, but neither come close to the innovative use of the medium of Lynch's work, nor will they be considered historically important.

Because they're establishment bodies run by establishment figures, they often only recognise the really important work after the event, like Lynch's honorary Oscar or Aphex Twin's Grammy, or once the influence of those original innovators has seeped into the broader language of the medium and it becomes a "genre".

Alfred Hitchcock has never won an Oscar and he's all you ever hear about.

It seems they will never live that down.

Judy Garland is another one that comes to mind.

And they were so scared of Martin Scorsese not getting one that they FINALLY awarded him for argueably his least warranted nominated film.

Oh my God, all this nitpicking over whether Prince should have collected more Grammys

during his lifetime. Getting one Grammy is hard enough (and also nice) and so 7 is a pretty good number in the final analysis.

That being said its hard to put Prince in the same league with Quincy Jones 28,Beyonce 24, Jay Z and Kanye West

I completely agree with this, it's very hard to put Pince in the same leagie as Quincy, Beyonce, Jay Z and Kanye. No strike that, it's not hard it's impossible. Prince is in a league way above those other names.

fen said:

ForbiddenFruit said:

A lot of people believe that, but it's not true.

Every year, in the vast majority of cases, the best performances are found among the Oscar winners and nominations. Of course there are exceptions, but most of the time the Academy makes understandable decisions.

I'm not sure that's true, major award ceremonies tend to limp behind the real innovations happening in culture and they tend to favour those working within mainstream forms and methods. Take someone like David Lynch, whose always managed to work within the system - I don't think he's ever won an Oscar has he? (apart from a perfunctory Honorary award late in the day) And yet he's undoubtedly the one of the most interesting and important American directors in the history of the medium, and his ongoing influence will outshine 99% of the Academy winners over the last 40 years. They can't even reward genius when it's right under their noses, let alone keep in step with what's happening in culture more broadly.

Agree w/bolded

[Edited 3/17/21 9:10am]

[Edited 3/17/21 9:11am]

TheEnglishGent said:

That being said its hard to put Prince in the same league with Quincy Jones 28,Beyonce 24, Jay Z and Kanye West

I completely agree with this, it's very hard to put Pince in the same leagie as Quincy, Beyonce, Jay Z and Kanye. No strike that, it's not hard it's impossible. Prince is in a league way above those other names.

Quincy Jones is a very accomplished and learned musician and bandleader. Prince was both as well but he didn't know how to write and read music. That doesn't diminish his talent at all so please don't jump down my throat here but Quincy is one of the greatest of all time in the music business. Both men were artists, producers, writers/composers, business moguls, etc. I would definitely put Quincy and Prince in the same league.

Prince came about in a time where there was more competition artistically and less categories. This is how current artists can get more awards.

MoodyBlumes said:

One of Chaka Khan's biggest hits was Prince's 'I Feel for You' -- she won a grammy for it in 1985. Sinead O'Connor received a Grammy for the album which featured Prince's 'Nothing Compares 2 U' -- likely the only song most remember from the album -- it was a platinum worldwide hit, spending weeks at the top of Billboard.

I doubt Prince put out albums like 'Dirty Mind' or singles like 'If I Was Your Girlfriend' with the intention of collecting grammies. Warners didn't even want to put out Little Red Corvette, according to engineer Peggy McCreary, but Prince said out she goes.

The Beatles received 4 grammies while they were a group; Jimi Hendrix won 3 grammies (1992, 1999, 2009 - he died in 1970); Alison Krauss has 27 grammies.

So why not go to Alison's forum if grammies are your thing.

[Edited 3/8/21 18:27pm]

So much this! who gives a fuck about grammies? When people talk about why Prince was one of the greatest in the game, they don't talk about his grammies, they talk about his talent, his abilities as a musician, songwriter and producer. He mastered the studio, I don't think a Beyonce mastered it, but she won more grammies, so what does that tell us? That she's better? I don't think sales and grammies tell us what artists are better.

I think Prince very likely would've been able to produce another album like Purple rain. I mean, he did it once, why not twice or a third time. But he wasn't in the game for that. He didn't care much about sales and grammies and that mindset allowed him to evolve as an artist. It takes some balls to go against the mainstream and not produce the thing the current listeners want to hear. And he was still pretty succesful doing that. His career lasted until his death. He still was a household name when he died.

Grammy' are different today. They are more commercially-oriented and reward mediocrity.

They used to be a marker of aristic talent.

BTW, re: Quincy Jones...I think he is in a level above Prince. He was a prolific composer, arranger, mutli-instumentalst who worked extensively in all genres of music and television.

He couldn't dance or sing but overall he has few rivals. There is a reason he has so many Grammys. (when they used to mean something). His backstory is nothing short of amazing but tragic.

(i don't care as much for him as a person, though)