so (this is a spin off of the slave thread) the common criticism of prince is that he released too much, the label couldnt work it enough and exploit each release enough

and the public reached saturation point, they couldnt tell the difference between one big release and the next

but if he did release less albums, would that have created better, stronger, more inarguably excellent albums?

eg, an album in 92, from D&P and the symbol album sessions

an album in 94, from the come and gold sessions (come in gold, lets say)

would this have been a better strategy in the 90s?

Not really, it is what it is. Like part of his journey to have done what he had done and released what he released. I remember this period very well because i didnt start being a hardcore fan till 89 onwards. And it was pretty tough to follow him at the time. But also you got some good material and The live tour of the new material to follow suit. He had much more exposure under warners bros though, and a much more structured career in that it was release a single , then album then tour.

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

so (this is a spin off of the slave thread) the common criticism of prince is that he released too much, the label couldnt work it enough and exploit each release enough

and the public reached saturation point, they couldnt tell the difference between one big release and the next

but if he did release less albums, would that have created better, stronger, more inarguably excellent albums?

eg, an album in 92, from D&P and the symbol album sessions

an album in 94, from the come and gold sessions (come in gold, lets say)

would this have been a better strategy in the 90s?

But who said there was more in the 90s? or was there less? If we're talking full albums, then let's do some math. (numbers may be off by one or two numbers, don't shoot the messenger

From 1978-1989, there were 11 studio albums of original material, including two double sets.

There was 13 protege/related albums. That's 24 in total.

From 1990-1999, there were 13 studio albums of original material (which counts Kamasutra and Welcome 2 The Dawn as their own albums; and one triple sets), 4 protege/related (3 NPG & Mayte), and a greatest hits package (The Hits with only a half dozen new tracks, which is an EP at best and is counted as 1 project herein), the Peach double EP supplemental to The Hits, and a protege compilation (1800NewFunk). That's about 20 in total. Roughly.

I suppose one could sit down and literally count the tracks released. The 80s had b-sides including those for protege acts, but the 90s had EPs like Cream, Gett Off, and New Power Generation; and bigger maxi singles(The Beautiful Experience, My Name is Prince, Hate U, etc) which balances the field a bit.

All that NPGMC stuff didn't start until 2001, just before The Rainbow Children.

I think the music scene changed. Napster, Kazaa, etc., changed it. People were willing to be saturated with music because it was now at their fingertips, to partake at-will. Prince saw that technology and found a way to embrace it, thru NPGMC, New Funk, etc. Prince changed with the times and harnesses the technology for what he wanted to do: put music out for folks.

This premise makes ZERO sense.

Part of me thinks the problem is just how he released it. Love Symbol, D&P and Come make sense are albums but there's some songs that seem like they went on the wrong one. Then '95 on, it's like a grab bag approach, and it's almost like he doesn't value the material enoug to sequence real albums around it, but them overvalues a lot of mediocrity. I don't doubt when he made Animal Kingdom he thought he was making something profound but some of those other 90's tracks, I just can't picture him in the studio not knowing it was a throwaway.

lavendardrummachine said:

Did the public reach saturation point? He was still putting out a record a year just like the 80s, there really wasn't much difference. I think it's just times and styles moved on, he wasn't young(er) any more and the press and industry machine are fickle. And really nor the industry, press or audience have much time for petulant whinging millionaires - even if they do have a point.

its possible the public didnt reach saturation point, but that the label felt they didnt have enough time to work the record. if you get a new one year on year, youre barely finishing with the old one before you get a new one to work on. then again, it could be that the sales would have stayed the same anyway. i think its just that to expect every album to storm the charts, especially if youre releasing a new one ever year, is a bit ambitious. after a certain point in a career, you cant expect that level of interest anymore. so it might be better to slow down a bit. even springsteen who has been steady in releasing albums since the early 70s, has had periods where he just took a break of five years (twice). either way, i dont think it would have made much difference. from reading alex hahns rise of prince book, it seems like those tensions with warners were always there, they just exploded in the early 90s.

TrivialPursuit said:

From 1978-1989, there were 11 studio albums of original material, including two double sets.

There was 13 protege/related albums. That's 24 in total.

From 1990-1999, there were 13 studio albums of original material (which counts Kamasutra and Welcome 2 The Dawn as their own albums; and one triple sets), 4 protege/related (3 NPG & Mayte), and a greatest hits package (The Hits with only a half dozen new tracks, which is an EP at best and is counted as 1 project herein), the Peach double EP supplemental to The Hits, and a protege compilation (1800NewFunk). That's about 20 in total. Roughly.

90s Prince had 7 protege/related (3 NPG & Mayte + Carmen Electra + GCS 2000 + Come 2 My House).

It definitely wudve been more commercially successful. This is the reason why the Pop Machine makes $$$. But it wudnt b Prince. I think he psychologically needed to revolt and go independent. Can u imagine P modeling his career after every other assembly line Pop Product? And think of ALL the great music real fans wudve missed out on.

I think the individual albums may have come off better overall but I really liked having so much more to choose from. I never thought there was such a thing as "too much Prince music" even if I didn't like all of it.

WhisperingDandelions said:

90s Prince had 7 protege/related (3 NPG & Mayte + Carmen Electra + GCS 2000 + Come 2 My House).

Damn, you're right! I felt like I was maybe missing something with the Carmen album. Totally missed the NewPowerPak stuff (and I enjoy Chaka's album). They seem so 2000+ for some reason. But yeah, that ups the total a bit.

herb4 said:

I think the individual albums may have come off better overall but I really liked having so much more to choose from. I never thought there was such a thing as "too much Prince music" even if I didn't like all of it.

I think that's always been the attitude, which is why the Vault was so obsessed over but in reality fans were getting lost whether or not there was heavy promotion.

For a large portion of the fan base, they're liking the heavy rotation songs, but not in a way where they're jamming to it in their cars with the windows down, they were satisfied just hearing it on the radio.

TrivialPursuit said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

90s Prince had 7 protege/related (3 NPG & Mayte + Carmen Electra + GCS 2000 + Come 2 My House).

Damn, you're right! I felt like I was maybe missing something with the Carmen album. Totally missed the NewPowerPak stuff (and I enjoy Chaka's album). They seem so 2000+ for some reason. But yeah, that ups the total a bit.

You see Chaka as a protege?

I wish actually did have a more definative '90's protege scene' to look over and compare to the 80s

(almost Robin Power & the Uptown Dames) (does Tevin Campell count then?) Carmen Electra, Mayte(being in his band at the same time probably made it hard to see her that way for me)

OldFriends4Sale said:

rotege?

I wish actually did have a more definative '90's protege scene' to look over and compare to the 80s

(almost Robin Power & the Uptown Dames) (does Tevin Campell count then?) Carmen Electra, Mayte(being in his band at the same time probably made it hard to see her that way for me)

No, but it's a fully realized Prince album. His music, his production mostly, his playing on it.

I don't count Tevin because his album wasn't fully produced by Prince (similar to Taja, or Martika). But, if given my rule about fully produced, then where does Mavis' two albums fall? The first one was half Prince, half those other guys. I forget about the second. They're not protege's but they're more than someone with a random Prince song on a record or someone on PP/NPG records (a la Sheena, Patti, Bangles, Kenny Rogers, Nona, Good Question, Three O'Clock, etc.).

OldFriends4Sale said:

TrivialPursuit said:

Damn, you're right! I felt like I was maybe missing something with the Carmen album. Totally missed the NewPowerPak stuff (and I enjoy Chaka's album). They seem so 2000+ for some reason. But yeah, that ups the total a bit.

You see Chaka as a protege?

I wish actually did have a more definative '90's protege scene' to look over and compare to the 80s

(almost Robin Power & the Uptown Dames) (does Tevin Campell count then?) Carmen Electra, Mayte(being in his band at the same time probably made it hard to see her that way for me)

Chaka's no protege--ask Rufus.

TrivialPursuit said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

rotege?

I wish actually did have a more definative '90's protege scene' to look over and compare to the 80s

(almost Robin Power & the Uptown Dames) (does Tevin Campell count then?) Carmen Electra, Mayte(being in his band at the same time probably made it hard to see her that way for me)

No, but it's a fully realized Prince album. His music, his production mostly, his playing on it.

I don't count Tevin because his album wasn't fully produced by Prince (similar to Taja, or Martika). But, if given my rule about fully produced, then where does Mavis' two albums fall? The first one was half Prince, half those other guys. I forget about the second. They're not protege's but they're more than someone with a random Prince song on a record or someone on PP/NPG records (a la Sheena, Patti, Bangles, Kenny Rogers, Nona, Good Question, Three O'Clock, etc.).

The first Mavis was in fact 6 Prince songs out of 8, with some overdubs by Mavis and crew.

The second one was 8 songs out of 12, but included 2 "covers" (Melody Cool and Positivity) and Prince's involvement in the recording of the 5 Ricky Peterson produced tracks remains uncertain (though MBN once told me Prince definitely attended the recording of The Undertaker, but he wasn't sure between P and Ricky who was responsible for what).

So in the end I'd say TWFNO can definitely be counted as a Prince/MAvis collab with 2 tracks not by P. The Voice is a more confusing case, and I usually don't include it as a fully realized Prince record. My rule usually is it's a P record if he was responsible for at least 75% of the material, but this is of course completely arbitrary. Ingrid's album for example is very grey area because Prince originated the project and even if he left it along the way, he named the people to take over and the rest of the material was based on his original concept.

It wasn't so much about amount, it was about quality. In my opinion the worst period in his career. Other than a few gems here and there, The Truth, Come, it was dumbed down generic sounding music. Chasing the worst trends in music at the time.

If he did not come back in the 2000's with his amazing live shows, it would have ended a lesser artist's carreer.

[Edited 10/27/20 4:03am]

i made playlists of come, TGE and C&D that i think make better, more focused albums.

all are only about 40 mins like his best 80s albums.

"I've been thinking a lot about the kinds of artists who don't censor their own work. I can think of three conspicuous ones: Picasso is one, Miles Davis is another, Prince is another. They're all people who just put it out, and I think they have almost no critical self-censorship. They say, "Let the market decide; let the world decide."

Brian Eno (1995)

*cough* black album *cough*