.

Prince read the room correctly and mangaged to get a modest (compared to PR) commercial success with SOTT off the strength of the singles (except Girlfriend) all of which came after the June tracklist (SOTT, Housequake, ICNTTPOYM, U got the Look (and Adore on radio))

.

Looking particularly at the June tracklist, there are no hit singles there. The album would have liked by most critics with its "pop" pseudo-pychadelia but there is no "Kiss" here no "Raspberry Beret" and by 87 no one wantted to hear that anyway.

.

What do you think could have been the lead single off of DF? Last Heart? Strange Relationship?

.

[Edited 10/6/20 8:11am]

I will want to know what the B sides would have been
This album is too eclectic, adult and more focused to flop
.
In 1986? yes

Dream Factory
Dorothy Parker
Strange Relationship
Teacher Teacher
Sexual Suicide

Last Heart
Power Fantastic
In a Large Room with No Light
Witness 4 the Prosecution

emesem said:

Prince read the room correctly and mangaged to get a modest (compared to PR) commercial success with SOTT off the strength of the singles (except Girlfriend) all of which came after the June tracklist (SOTT, Housequake, ICNTTPOYM, U got the Look (and Adore on radio))

.

Looking particularly at the June tracklist, there are no hit singles there. The album would have liked by most critics with its "pop" pseudo-pychadelia but there is no "Kiss" here no "Raspberry Beret" and by 87 no one wantted to hear that anyway.

.

What do you think could have been the lead single off of DF? Last Heart? Strange Relationship?

[Edited 10/6/20 6:25am]

I think this is a good point. There are amazing songs in that sequence that the critics would have loved, but there really are no obvious radio-hits.

From its track list, I think Strange Relationship is the most radio-friendly and could have seen it getting some air time, but I don't think it would have been a big hit. It probably would have only made it halfway up the Top 40.

On a slightly related subject, it surprises me today that when casual fans or DJ's specializing in '80s play Prince songs, they rarely include U Got the Look. It seems like the masses have collectively forgotten it. Sure, it wasn't as big a hit as any of the singles from 1999 or Purple Rain, and not as big as Raspberry Beret or Kiss, but I still recall it being pretty popular with the masses in '87.

[Edited 10/6/20 7:23am]

nextedition said:

With this deluxe release i come to see how strong the original sign of the times album is. I dont know about hitsucces, but eventually the strongest tracks ended on the original album.

.

Idk. Like Starfish and Coffee and Ballad of DP, songs like Power Fantastic, Movie Star, All My Dreams, In a Large Room, Last Heart SHOULD have been on a real Prince album somewhere. They are brilliant and masterpieces but just not "hits".

.

The W&L purge claimed its victims in the loss of those songs but I dont think it would been possible to him to craft a "Sign of the Times by Prince and the Revolution". While he wrote some of these (namely SOTT itself) while there still was a Revolution, I think in his mind he had moved on and was seeking a new, (more funk, more drums, more "modern" and less "pop", Joni and Beatles/Beach Boys) sound.

[Edited 10/6/20 7:24am]

nextedition said:

With this deluxe release i come to see how strong the original sign of the times album is. I dont know about hitsucces, but eventually the strongest tracks ended on the original album.

I think so too.

I'm enjoying the vault discs a lot but on almost all of them, I can see why they were cut. Except I enjoy a LOT of them more than Slow Love but I guess he wanted a ballad on there.

I never liked it honestly. Surprised it did so well and the video was wierd as AF but late 80s was a wierd time.

lurker316 said:

emesem said:

Prince read the room correctly and mangaged to get a modest (compared to PR) commercial success with SOTT off the strength of the singles (except Girlfriend) all of which came after the June tracklist (SOTT, Housequake, ICNTTPOYM, U got the Look (and Adore on radio))

.

Looking particularly at the June tracklist, there are no hit singles there. The album would have liked by most critics with its "pop" pseudo-pychadelia but there is no "Kiss" here no "Raspberry Beret" and by 87 no one wantted to hear that anyway.

.

What do you think could have been the lead single off of DF? Last Heart? Strange Relationship?

[Edited 10/6/20 6:25am]

I think this is a good point. There are amazing songs in that sequence that the critics would have loved, but there really are no obvious radio-hits.

From its track list, I think Strange Relationship is the most radio-friendly and could have seen it getting some air time, but I don't think it would have been a big hit. It probably would have only made it halfway up the Top 40.

On a slightly related subject, it surprises me today that when casual fans or DJ's specializing in '80s play Prince songs, they really include U Got the Look. It seems like the masses have collectively forgotten it. Sure, it wasn't as big a hit as any of the singles from 1999 or Purple Rain, and not as big as Raspberry Beret or Kiss, but I still recall it being pretty popular with the masses in '87.

i completely agree

The question though is was Prince pushing for hits anyway?
.
I mean Housequake was not a single, but IIWYG was, SOTT did not include a video that most recognized as a video and by July 1987 the SOTT era was basically over and he was working on pushing other songs out by non Prince camp artists.

.

The Black Album if released, it would not be a 'hit driven' release, and Lovesexy was an album with hits or radio friendly songs either. I still don't care if it had radio friendly songs or hits. I still would be enamoured with it. I listen to it more than Lovesexy. Alphabet St just made it out of the gate. But is still wonderful Prince music.

.

Was Madhouse 8 Madhouse 16 flops? sorta. But were they masterpieces of Purple Music? yes

.

I doubt Dream Factory would have been a flop. It was Prince. Dream Factory would still have been heralded as an example of Prince artistry.

OldFriends4Sale said:

LoveGalore said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

The question though is was Prince pushing for hits anyway?
.
I mean Housequake was not a single, but IIWYG was, SOTT did not include a video that most recognized as a video and by July 1987 the SOTT era was basically over and he was working on pushing other songs out by non Prince camp artists.

.

The Black Album if released, it would not be a 'hit driven' release, and Lovesexy was an album with hits or radio friendly songs either. I still don't care if it had radio friendly songs or hits. I still would be enamoured with it. I listen to it more than Lovesexy. Alphabet St just made it out of the gate. But is still wonderful Prince music.

.

Was Madhouse 8 Madhouse 16 flops? sorta. But were they masterpieces of Purple Music? yes

.

I doubt Dream Factory would have been a flop. It it was Prince. Dream Factory would still have been heralded as an example of artistry.

Well you could say prince didn't have a legitimate flop album until Come, or Gold, or Chaos.

True

emesem said:

nextedition said:

With this deluxe release i come to see how strong the original sign of the times album is. I dont know about hitsucces, but eventually the strongest tracks ended on the original album.

.

Idk. Like Starfish and Coffee and Ballad of DP, songs like Power Fantastic, Movie Star, All My Dreams, In a Large Room, Last Heart SHOULD have been on a real Prince album somewhere. They are brilliant and masterpieces but just not "hits".

.

The W&L purge claimed its victims in the loss of those songs but I dont think it would been possible to him to craft a "Sign of the Times by Prince and the Revolution". While he wrote some of these (namely SOTT itself) while there still was a Revolution, I think in his mind he had moved on and was seeking a new, (more funk, more drums, more "modern" and less "pop", Joni and Beatles/Beach Boys) sound.

Well said.

tab32792 said:

The album is a mess. I’ve tried the last 2 configurations and it doesn’t flow. Unlike sign o the times which is a mess as well but a beautiful one lol. Prince was looking for hits whether he wanted to admit it or not. Especially in 86/87 after the 2 post PR albums didn’t do that well. Way too much of that pop ethereal sound and no real hit songs or singles.

I think most messes out of the PR camp back then were beautiful lol like people who know how to put thrift store vintage clothes together.

.

Yes, I agree Prince did want hits, but hits on his standing. He wanted everyone to to receive what he put out. Not the expected 'hits'.
.
And even though there is almost nothing that I don't like from the 1978-1989 period. The non hits/single were always the ones I tend to listen to over and over. The ones that make me trip.

.

Dream Factory has a LOT of that.

.
Leaving 4 New York, Anne Christian, Sexuality, Let's Pretend We're Married, All the Critics Love U in NY, Automatic, Horny Toad, No Call U, Purple Music, I Don't Want 2 Leave U, Make Up, Computer Blue(in all it's manifestations) IWD4U, Purple Rain, God the Dance Electric & Love Theme, Dear Michelangelo, 4TheTearsofAMadClownInSummer,

Prince said the Time:Ice Cream Castles has some really psychodelic stuff that wasn't released(I WANT TO HEAR) I hope there is an instrumental version of Chili Sauce/Proposition 17, Cold Coffee & Cocaine, Our Destiny, Shortberry Strawcake, Condition of the Heart, Tamborine, Hello, ATWIAD, Killing at the Soda Shop, Go, Adonis & Bathsheba, Christopher Tracy's Parade, I Wonder U, Alexa de Paris, Venus de Milo, Junk Music, Up From Below, Heaven, In A Large Room With No Lights, Power Fantastic, Crystal Ball, Ballad of Dorothy Parker, Starfish & Coffee, IIWYG, The Sex of It, Madhouse 6(End of the World) 8 (All of the Black Album), 10, 14, Dance On, Positivity, the Line(the busy version) the Line(the quiet version) the Future, Dance with the Devil,

OldFriends4Sale said:

The question though is was Prince pushing for hits anyway?
.

Probably not as his main motivation, no, although I'm sure having a hit crossed his mind.

Trouble was, for WB, that was the ONLY thing on thier minds most of the time.

emesem said:

I think it's very easy to dismiss Dream Factory when it can't be viewed in the context of a released 'era'.

Had it been released, it would have had a theme, colour scheme, look and videos. Based on history, there may well have had a 'hit' slapped on it at the last second, just PR, Parade and SOTT did.

No doubt it would have been more 'whimsical' is style and promotion, but there are songs on there that are just as or more marketable at Mountains, If I was Your Girlfriend, Glam Slam etc. Strange Relationship is the hit that never was and Wonderful Day, In A Large Room and even Crystal Ball (based on Prince entertaining the idea of a 7" edit), could all be spoken about in the same breath looking back.

Yeah, absolutely.

Someone in another thread thought it held up to Prince's best albums, and I just don't see how. I don't doubt he would have created some masterpieces for the B sides, but it would have been about as satisfying as the W&L album was at the time. That record at least had an obvious single. It's enjoyable because it's still them, but there's still a letdown.

Prince thought of these tracks as esoteric, and really there's just no teeth to a lot of them. They're showtunes that needed to be paired right. SOTT had some of that, but he wrapped it around soul, and blues and he grouped them right. Dream Factory's songs are worse off when collected together.

I always felt that somehow if Dream Factory was released a Camille album would have been released too. Both would have played off each other

.

It's interesting that a lot of things people are saying to say this 'wouldn't have been popular etc' are some of the same things people say to why a lot of his more obscure 2000s albums were good

herb4 said:

nextedition said:

With this deluxe release i come to see how strong the original sign of the times album is. I dont know about hitsucces, but eventually the strongest tracks ended on the original album.

I think so too.

I'm enjoying the vault discs a lot but on almost all of them, I can see why they were cut. Except I enjoy a LOT of them more than Slow Love but I guess he wanted a ballad on there.

I agree, too - although, and I appreciate this on the face of it sounds like the silliest thing to say, none of those songs sound like songs from SOTT. They sound like songs from different projects - and I know that we know they were songs from different projects/songs he's knocking ideas about on, etc - but none of the songs on the vault discs sound like they are from the same projects as the ones that made the cut (even the alternate versions don't sound meant for the album that was ultimately released). I guess, what I'm trying to say is, there are many fantastic songs on these discs, some that should absolutely have seen an official release and, in my opinion, are stronger than some of the songs on SOTT...but none of them would have sounded right on the album that was released.

*

This is the most cyclic post I've typed...it's a garbled nonsense, but I think I know what I mean.

nextedition said:

With this deluxe release i come to see how strong the original sign of the times album is. I dont know about hit succes, but eventually the strongest tracks ended on the original album.

I think that,after UTCM flopped and 'Parade' wasn't a massive seller,Prince knew that he had to come back strong in 1987.Which he certainly did,with SOTT.

OldFriends4Sale said:

The question though is was Prince pushing for hits anyway?

Hard to say. I like SOTT better cause I prefer the darker 'solo'-material.

But to me DF would have been a better album than f/e Parade. Although it's hard to see what the KISS-type smash hit would've been...

Lot's of factors decide what makes a hit album. The artist willing to work behind it for example: a full blown Revolution Tour vs no SOTT US tour.

I totally understand this. Someone said this on a different thread and I agree that the core Dream Factory songs are likely better on a Parade extended or even in a separate release as the "lost" Revolution album rather than the origins of SOTT which really seems to start with Camile.

SimonCharles said:

herb4 said:

I think so too.

I'm enjoying the vault discs a lot but on almost all of them, I can see why they were cut. Except I enjoy a LOT of them more than Slow Love but I guess he wanted a ballad on there.

I agree, too - although, and I appreciate this on the face of it sounds like the silliest thing to say, none of those songs sound like songs from SOTT. They sound like songs from different projects - and I know that we know they were songs from different projects/songs he's knocking ideas about on, etc - but none of the songs on the vault discs sound like they are from the same projects as the ones that made the cut (even the alternate versions don't sound meant for the album that was ultimately released). I guess, what I'm trying to say is, there are many fantastic songs on these discs, some that should absolutely have seen an official release and, in my opinion, are stronger than some of the songs on SOTT...but none of them would have sounded right on the album that was released.

*

This is the most cyclic post I've typed...it's a garbled nonsense, but I think I know what I mean.

emesem said:

I totally understand this. Someone said this on a different thread and I agree that the core Dream Factory songs are likely better on a Parade extended or even in a separate release as the "lost" Revolution album rather than the origins of SOTT which really seems to start with Camile.

SimonCharles said:

I agree, too - although, and I appreciate this on the face of it sounds like the silliest thing to say, none of those songs sound like songs from SOTT. They sound like songs from different projects - and I know that we know they were songs from different projects/songs he's knocking ideas about on, etc - but none of the songs on the vault discs sound like they are from the same projects as the ones that made the cut (even the alternate versions don't sound meant for the album that was ultimately released). I guess, what I'm trying to say is, there are many fantastic songs on these discs, some that should absolutely have seen an official release and, in my opinion, are stronger than some of the songs on SOTT...but none of them would have sounded right on the album that was released.

*

This is the most cyclic post I've typed...it's a garbled nonsense, but I think I know what I mean.

That's well said, yes. In my head, In a Large Room..., In All My Dreams, Visions, A Place in Heaven, etc all sit in Parade monochrome.

OldFriends4Sale said:

by July 1987 the SOTT era was basically over

Not at all in fact,at that point,the album was really starting to take off."U Got The Look" reached Number two on the charts in September and the next single "ICNTTPOYM" followed it into the Top 10.By this time,album tracks like "Adore" and "Hot Thing" were getting massive airplay on R&B stations.We also got the concert film in November.

emesem said:

Well, it wouldn't have "flopped" as Prince was one of the biggest acts in the world at the time. However, it clearly wouldn't have been as commercially successful as Sign o' the Times was.

I do think Warners did the right thing by delaying him and whittling it down to a double. After the Cherry Moon disaster and the modestly-received (Stateside) Parade, and Prince having put out an LP per year for three years in a row, there was a real danger of his profile taking a hit if a triple-album with no big hits came out shortly after the previous record.

As it was, Sign reached only #6 on the US charts (#4 R&B), which isn't even nearly as successful in the short-term as Around The World in a Day had been. (It has probably sold better in catalog since then, but not at the time.)

It's a pity that, in the 80s, there weren't easier options for Prince to release his more 'personal' stuff quickly and without fuss, the way many artists do today on indie-labels or online.

It doesn't matter if Prince had put out Dream Factory, Camille, Crystal Ball, or SOTT. If Warners Bros. put their full effort of the machine behind Prince like they did with Purple Rain, Batman, and Diamonds and Pearls, any one of the 86/87 albums would have been hits. It was all about the record companies putting the big push behind whatever artist they felt was hot at the time.

SOTT could have been much more heralded than it was had Prince not felt disrespected when told to trim it down and WB not feeling forced to accept anything Prince put out. Both parties were pissed at each other and put forth a half ass effort.

WB didn't trust Prince after Cherry Moon flopped and they let him know it and Prince felt like WB didn't have his back anymore. It's a wonder SOTT turned out as great as it did.