LoveGalore said:

steakfinger said:

Money and clout? Fool. She's making more money teaching than she gets from doing interviews. Typically, one does not get paid to do interviews. Clout? What clout? No one knows who she is aside from a tiny handfull of hardcore fans. She speaks the truth which rubs your fantasies about Prince the wrong way. He wasn't magic. Get over it.

Nah he was pretty magic. As we see from both SDEs, he didn't need anyone else in there. But it was very kind of him to share his world with folks. Sad to say that it pretty much always boiled down, in his mind, to them being opportunistic. Susan should probably curb the armchair psychology. His first and last love was the music - not her friend Susannah. Sorry babes!

That may be true LoveGalore, BUT....I think Susannah was a close second, and at the very least, topped all the other gals Only have to listen to songs like FIML and Wally to understand that

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

VaultCurator said:

Here's my two cents.

Anyone who thinks 'Camille' is a female persona isn't paying attention. If Camille was supposed to be female then the song 'If I Was Your Girlfriend' no longer makes any sense.

"Will you remember, and tell me all the things you forgot WHEN I WAS YOUR MAN!"

Its sung from the pov of a trans woman remembering when she was a man

WTF???!!!! You're joking here, right?? I hope??!!!

SchlomoThaHomo said:

I think it’s strange that Susan references “It” as being one of his deeper songs. Am I missing something here?

Well....if you listen to Prince singing FIML live on the SOTT film, you hear/see him mixing the song It wth FIML and Adore, so....He also mixes It with Thieves In The Temple during his 1992 tour. So, it seems to have a deeper meaning to him. I think Susan's referring to the intensity of both the lyric and vibe of the song, and him wanting to be with her ALL THE TIME. "I think about it baby all the time, cuz when we do it girl it's so divine..." This "divine" theme also plays out in Adore - "when we be making love, I only hear the sounds of angels crying up above, tears of joy pouring down on us. They know we need each other, they know you are my fix..."

*

When you look at it that way, Susan has a point

v10letblues said:

ForceofNature said:

Unless there were indeed legal issues with the full version due to its inclusion on CB '98? None of the tracks that were on that release are on this release with the exception of a shortened edit, and a different version of Crucial from that release

Yes apparently there may have been rights issues, but still, if you're going to do this right you iron them out and not go on to a half ass release.

.

Ultimately I need to walk away from this discussion becasue the more I think of it the more disappointed I get. There is a lot to be happy about this release so i need to exit this discussion and not spoil other's enjoyment of it.

I get what you are saying, I would have enjoyed their includsion as well. However I think that all in all it isn't a super big deal since we all have those tracks on the '98 set anyways and are not privy to the discussions they had - for me personally for example I am not gonna ride the Estate too hard about not including them only because I don't know the legalities and what was possible and reasonable for both parties to expect

ForceofNature said:

v10letblues said:

Yes apparently there may have been rights issues, but still, if you're going to do this right you iron them out and not go on to a half ass release.

.

Ultimately I need to walk away from this discussion becasue the more I think of it the more disappointed I get. There is a lot to be happy about this release so i need to exit this discussion and not spoil other's enjoyment of it.

I get what you are saying, I would have enjoyed their includsion as well. However I think that all in all it isn't a super big deal since we all have those tracks on the '98 set anyways and are not privy to the discussions they had - for me personally for example I am not gonna ride the Estate too hard about not including them only because I don't know the legalities and what was possible and reasonable for both parties to expect

I do miss the first version of Crystal Ball - that's always been my favorite, even more so than the version released on the '98 record. But, there's SO many other great tracks on this SDE to enjoy.

This epidsode was fascinating. I learned a little about Prince in the studio, particulary from Cuz. But the most interesting thing was understanding, now, why Susan Rogers loved Wally and didn't like Adonis and Bathsheeba. She thought Prince should be making sad music. Wally was sad. A&B is happy. I think it's about that simple.
.
I hope we learn more about Prince in the studio and Prince's creation of Sign o the Times in the last three episodes. But I fear that it's going to be more focus on the bands. Episodes 1-4 were largely about the Revolution. Episode 5 was cool. And it's looking like Eposides 6-8 will be about the Sign o the Times band. And the thing we're going to miss is Prince at work in the studio, at home with his notebook, in the car with his thoughts, etc. and other things he did to create this amazing music. He's no longer with us, obviously, to give these insights directly. But I'd reallly like to hear folks talk about his writing process, particulalry how he put together lyrics and melody. Those have barely been discussed.

controversy99 said:

This epidsode was fascinating. I learned a little about Prince in the studio, particulary from Cuz. But the most interesting thing was understanding, now, why Susan Rogers loved Wally and didn't like Adonis and Bathsheeba. She thought Prince should be making sad music. Wally was sad. A&B is happy. I think it's about that simple.
.
I hope we learn more about Prince in the studio and Prince's creation of Sign o the Times in the last three episodes. But I fear that it's going to be more focus on the bands. Episodes 1-4 were largely about the Revolution. Episode 5 was cool. And it's looking like Eposides 6-8 will be about the Sign o the Times band. And the thing we're going to miss is Prince at work in the studio, at home with his notebook, in the car with his thoughts, etc. and other things he did to create this amazing music. He's no longer with us, obviously, to give these insights directly. But I'd reallly like to hear folks talk about his writing process, particulalry how he put together lyrics and melody. Those have barely been discussed.

I don't think Susan was connecting Adonis & Bathsheba with her statements about Prince recording "happy" songs instead of songs reflecting his pain. A & B was recorded in July '86, when Prince was still with The Revolution and still engaged to Susannah.

*

The "happy/party" music she's referring to are all of the tracks that Prince was recording AFTER he disbanded The Revolution and also after Susannah finally left MN and moved back to LA. This was the October-December '86 time period. Things changed quickly after the Parade tour. Susan was speaking about the music Prince recorded for Sheila's birthday party, which was early December. She mentioned Cindy C, Rock Hard In A Funky Place, etc. which she thought were just songs he recorded for fun, but then ended up being tracked for the Black Album.

*

Susan stated she knew he was really hurting even though he wasn't writing about it, so she was wondering when the sadness would show up in his music, and it finally happened with the Wally session at the end of December. She stated she felt his outward "happiness" was him hiding his true feelings, and just being happy without a reason to feel that way.

violetcrush said:

LoveGalore said:

violetcrush said:

I don't think Susan was connecting Adonis & Bathsheba with her statements about Prince recording "happy" songs instead of songs reflecting his pain. A & B was recorded in July '86, when Prince was still with The Revolution and still engaged to Susannah.

*

The "happy/party" music she's referring to are all of the tracks that Prince was recording AFTER he disbanded The Revolution and also after Susannah finally left MN and moved back to LA. This was the October-December '86 time period. Things changed quickly after the Parade tour. Susan was speaking about the music Prince recorded for Sheila's birthday party, which was early December. She mentioned Cindy C, Rock Hard In A Funky Place, etc. which she thought were just songs he recorded for fun, but then ended up being tracked for the Black Album.

*

Susan stated she knew he was really hurting even though he wasn't writing about it, so she was wondering when the sadness would show up in his music, and it finally happened with the Wally session at the end of December. She stated she felt his outward "happiness" was him hiding his true feelings, and just being happy without a reason to feel that way.

Look at the actual songs he recorded after Susannah left after Christmas: 101 Come Home Jaguar Not exactly party jams. We get it. He was hurt. But Susan's estimation that prince should be exhausted with sorrow is just flat out BS. Was he ever exhausted with sorrow before about a woman he truly loved? Or is the suggestion here he didn't know true love until he knew Susannah? That can't be it because even in his music he seems pretty much good ol Prince. Record Hot Thing about some 21 year old strange, then follow it up with Forever In My Life the very next day. He did this often, too - write a song about fucking some girl he just met and then write a song about how much he loves Susannah the next day. Fascinating.

Yeah, we all know by now that Prince was NOT monogamous, always clubbing, and like a "kid in a candy store" when it came to meeting random women, and "hooking up". However, you are confusing that with deeper feelings of love and affection. Both men and women, but especially men, are capable of living both of those extremes simultaneously - especially someone like Prince, who was ALWAYS looking for a variety of inspiration for his music.

*

I don't think anyone is stating that Prince was never sad about a relationship ending prior to Susannah - as we know there were many prior to her (Kim Upsher, Susan, Vanity, etc), however, by the time Prince and Susannah were together he clearly had matured quite a bit, and it seems they had a deeper connection. While he may never have been fully monogamous (even Susannah has stated this) he was honest about his feelings in his lyrics. So, as I've stated so many times, I always go back to his music with regard to how he was thinking or feeling. Just because he was also writing fun party songs at the same time he was writing the love/heartbreak songs does not mean he was not hurting or sad. He didn't have to be hurting 24/7 for it to be valid.

violetcrush said:

LoveGalore said:

violetcrush said:

Yeah, we all know by now that Prince was NOT monogamous, always clubbing, and like a "kid in a candy store" when it came to meeting random women, and "hooking up". However, you are confusing that with deeper feelings of love and affection. Both men and women, but especially men, are capable of living both of those extremes simultaneously - especially someone like Prince, who was ALWAYS looking for a variety of inspiration for his music.

*

I don't think anyone is stating that Prince was never sad about a relationship ending prior to Susannah - as we know there were many prior to her (Kim Upsher, Susan, Vanity, etc), however, by the time Prince and Susannah were together he clearly had matured quite a bit, and it seems they had a deeper connection. While he may never have been fully monogamous (even Susannah has stated this) he was honest about his feelings in his lyrics. So, as I've stated so many times, I always go back to his music with regard to how he was thinking or feeling. Just because he was also writing fun party songs at the same time he was writing the love/heartbreak songs does not mean he was not hurting or sad. He didn't have to be hurting 24/7 for it to be valid.

You and I agree on Prince's feelings! But I don't think the sadness is missing in his music. It's there. And when we look at his music in a wider view, which we can, we see just how the depths of his emotions ended up in further songs. I think Susan is projecting here. She very much wants it to be clear what she observed Susannah and The Revolution meaning to Prince. I thank her for the insight. But I'm older than Prince was back then and can see, because now we're in the future and know what happened in his life after, that he didn't really seem to hide much - he also didn't harp on endlessly about things either - unless one considers writing Violet the Organ Grinder about Susannah a good 5 years later as harping endlessly. He stated his piece(s) and moved on. That's probably way more mature than people usually give prince credit for being tbh.

See, that is where we disagree though. It may have seemed - based on how he acted publicly - that he moved on (ie: "I don't live in the past...the past is the past", etc), but we know, based on his songs and also how he treated some of those in his life who had left, that he really did harbor long-term emotions, including sadness, loss, hurt, anger and/or resentment. Those all exposed themselves within his songs too. As many have stated, he communicated with people through his music. He would never just sit down and have an intimate conversation, as he was too guarded with his emotions to do that.

*

His 1995 song In This Bed I Scream is a great example. He wrote and recorded that about 10 years after Wendy, Lisa and Susannah had left his immediate circle. And yes, Violet The Organ Grinder is another one, and I think there are many more. I actually think he invested more emotion AFTER his relationships broke apart rather than during - almost as if the old "you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone" adage kicked in with him. He actually sang about that too with his song "When You Were Mine" ("I love you more than I did when you were mine...") So, I think there is that factor as well.

*

No doubt he was uber complicated in terms of a male in an intimate relationship with a woman. As Susannah said, it was HIS way, there was no talking about feelings (other than his songs), he was not always monogamous, and he wanted to keep her hidden and to himself. Big time control issues there, which sadly, is the reason he could not sustain a healthy long-term relationship with a woman.

I mean, he wasn't that complicated. He had to be the boss, whether it was in a band, in a relationship, or whatever. My amateur psychoanalysis is that he needed to completely control every aspect of his life and his environment in order to allow himself space to be vulnerable when making his music.

jaawwnn said:

I mean, he wasn't that complicated. He had to be the boss, whether it was in a band, in a relationship, or whatever. My amateur psychoanalysis is that he needed to completely control every aspect of his life and his environment in order to allow himself space to be vulnerable when making his music.

He definitely needed full and complete control - no doubt about that. However, that does not make for a healthy and functional intimate relationship, or really any type of relationship for that matter. It's not sustainable, as most people expect emotions, communication and feelings to be reciprocated - and not just via song lyrics. That's just not normal.

*

I don't think he had the "wall" up in order to be more vulnerable when making his music. I just think he had that wall up so that he did not have to show his vulnerability to others. I guess you could argue that he "saved" it for his music, but I think the music was really the ONLY way he could be vulnerable. Hence, the reason he did not like anyone in the control room when he was singing his lyrics - too intimate and vulnerable with someone else there.

violetcrush said:

jaawwnn said:

I mean, he wasn't that complicated. He had to be the boss, whether it was in a band, in a relationship, or whatever. My amateur psychoanalysis is that he needed to completely control every aspect of his life and his environment in order to allow himself space to be vulnerable when making his music.

He definitely needed full and complete control - no doubt about that. However, that does not make for a healthy and functional intimate relationship, or really any type of relationship for that matter. It's not sustainable, as most people expect emotions, communication and feelings to be reciprocated - and not just via song lyrics. That's just not normal.

*

I don't think he had the "wall" up in order to be more vulnerable when making his music. I just think he had that wall up so that he did not have to show his vulnerability to others. I guess you could argue that he "saved" it for his music, but I think the music was really the ONLY way he could be vulnerable. Hence, the reason he did not like anyone in the control room when he was singing his lyrics - too intimate and vulnerable with someone else there.

Well yeah, look at his life, and his death, and you see this play out imho

I'm not judging, he wasn't tethered to a shitty job he hated and he got to make beautiful music for 40 years that enriched the lives of millions, but it came at a cost.

jaawwnn said:

violetcrush said:

He definitely needed full and complete control - no doubt about that. However, that does not make for a healthy and functional intimate relationship, or really any type of relationship for that matter. It's not sustainable, as most people expect emotions, communication and feelings to be reciprocated - and not just via song lyrics. That's just not normal.

*

I don't think he had the "wall" up in order to be more vulnerable when making his music. I just think he had that wall up so that he did not have to show his vulnerability to others. I guess you could argue that he "saved" it for his music, but I think the music was really the ONLY way he could be vulnerable. Hence, the reason he did not like anyone in the control room when he was singing his lyrics - too intimate and vulnerable with someone else there.

Well yeah, look at his life, and his death, and you see this play out imho

I'm not judging, he wasn't tethered to a shitty job he hated and he got to make beautiful music for 40 years that enriched the lives of millions, but it came at a cost.

Oh I agree for sure. We all got some awesome music for 40 years, and he got to do wihat he loved the most, but it ultimately left him feeling very much alone throughout his life, and especially at the end of his life. I was thinking about the Musicology tour, and his acoustic sets. Prince in the huge arenas surrounded by thousands of fans, but looking so alone sitting with his guitar in the middle of the giant stage. It really is like a visual metaphor for his life.

*

I think the songs Sacrifice of Victor, Solo, and The Breakdown speak to his loneliness and how difficult it was for him to be vulnerable and open in relationships.

[Edited 9/28/20 10:15am]

[Edited 9/28/20 10:16am]

HamsterHuey said:

AvocadosMax said:

There’s no indication that Camille is Prince’s ‘female’ side.

Or, as Prince published, in the Lovesexy tourbook;

Time upon a once
There was a boy named Camille

And then constantly used the pronouns 'he/him/his'. There is no denying Prince was in touch with his feminine side, but it seems he viewed his Camille character as male.

No! Don't hit 'em with FACTS! How dare you??

violetcrush said:

violetcrush said:

LoveGalore said:

steakfinger said: Nah he was pretty magic. As we see from both SDEs, he didn't need anyone else in there. But it was very kind of him to share his world with folks. Sad to say that it pretty much always boiled down, in his mind, to them being opportunistic. Susan should probably curb the armchair psychology. His first and last love was the music - not her friend Susannah. Sorry babes!

That may be true LoveGalore, BUT....I think Susannah was a close second, and at the very least, topped all the other gals Only have to listen to songs like FIML and Wally to understand that

LoveGalore said:

violetcrush said:

Oh I agree for sure. We all got some awesome music for 40 years, and he got to do wihat he loved the most, but it ultimately left him feeling very much alone throughout his life, and especially at the end of his life. I was thinking about the Musicology tour, and his acoustic sets. Prince in the huge arenas surrounded by thousands of fans, but looking so alone sitting with his guitar in the middle of the giant stage. It really is like a visual metaphor for his life.

*

I think the songs Sacrifice of Victor, Solo, and The Breakdown speak to his loneliness and how difficult it was for him to be vulnerable and open in relationships.

[Edited 9/28/20 10:15am]

[Edited 9/28/20 10:16am]

BTW, he didn't write the lyrics for Solo but obviously they resonated with him. The lyricist actually went into detail how Prince came back with the full song just based on the poem the guy wrote. [Edited 9/29/20 15:05pm]

Right, the poet's story is listed on princevault. However, Prince asked him to write a poem about loss, and the way you feel when you've lost someone you love, and you know they are never coming back to you.

dannyd5050 said:

HamsterHuey said:

Or, as Prince published, in the Lovesexy tourbook;

Time upon a once
There was a boy named Camille

And then constantly used the pronouns 'he/him/his'. There is no denying Prince was in touch with his feminine side, but it seems he viewed his Camille character as male.

No! Don't hit 'em with FACTS! How dare you??

Prince - as The Artist, during his interview with Yahoo.com October, 1997:

*

YIL: This may sound nuts, but does the Camille alter ego, which you used on Sign O’ the Times, have anything to do with the famous nineteenth-century hermaphrodite Herculine Barbin, who was nicknamed Camille? If so, my younger brother will be very, very happy, since he has spent roughly a decade trying to convince me of this.

*

TA: Your brother is very wise.

ChocolateBox3121 said:

violetcrush said:

That may be true LoveGalore, BUT....I think Susannah was a close second, and at the very least, topped all the other gals Only have to listen to songs like FIML and Wally to understand that

Choco!!!! Oh how I've missed your signature NOT!!!

violetcrush said:

dannyd5050 said:

No! Don't hit 'em with FACTS! How dare you??

Prince - as The Artist, during his interview with Yahoo.com October, 1997:

*

YIL: This may sound nuts, but does the Camille alter ego, which you used on Sign O’ the Times, have anything to do with the famous nineteenth-century hermaphrodite Herculine Barbin, who was nicknamed Camille? If so, my younger brother will be very, very happy, since he has spent roughly a decade trying to convince me of this.

*

TA: Your brother is very wise.

"Herculine Barbin (November 8, 1838 – February 1868) was a French intersex person who was assigned female at birth and raised in a convent, but was later reclassified as male by a court of law, after an affair and physical examination. She is known for her memoir, Herculine Barbin, which was studied by Michel Foucault."

steakfinger said:

RJOrion said:

"...i didnt get involved in his personal affairs or his business affairs, for that matter..." ~ Susan Rogers - Episode 5 meanwhile she spends her entire adult life (including immediately after saying that) getting clout and money talking about Prince's personal and business affairs...where do the lies end and where does the truth begin?... let Lenny Waronker talk more, and lets be done with Fred Rogers' twin sister

Money and clout? Fool. She's making more money teaching than she gets from doing interviews. Typically, one does not get paid to do interviews. Clout? What clout? No one knows who she is aside from a tiny handfull of hardcore fans. She speaks the truth which rubs your fantasies about Prince the wrong way. He wasn't magic. Get over it.

-

@ RJOrion :

Interviews are basically never paid.

I for one would never ever say or write that someone I never met is telling unclear stories or lies.

And Larry Waronker did not live, or had thàt much contact with Prince.

It is not a matter of truths or lies, it's a matter of trying to comprehend and repaint an imperfect picture, and the will to grasp the balance of it all without prejudice.

-

funkbabyandthebabysitters said:

VaultCurator said:

Here's my two cents.

Anyone who thinks 'Camille' is a female persona isn't paying attention. If Camille was supposed to be female then the song 'If I Was Your Girlfriend' no longer makes any sense.

"Will you remember, and tell me all the things you forgot WHEN I WAS YOUR MAN!"

Its sung from the pov of a trans woman remembering when she was a man

-

In some interview Susan Rogers said what Prince kind of tried to explained to her about Camille.

She refers to the first verse of Shockadelica, cause that is exatly what he tried to explain.

It was not a man nor a woman, it was more of a ghost, an idea of transformation, another way of apporaching.

(Also think of the name change to a symbol...)

-