For me, the low points came when the last of the old regime left. First, when Dr. Fink was NOT extended a contract into the Diamonds and Pearls era. Dr. Fink was the last of The Revolution. Next was Miko and eventually, Levi left the camp. Those two were the last of the 80's Prince camp and the true funk was gone.

Granted, Prince still made some funky jams, but the vibe wasn't the same anymore. Prince's sound was plastic and cookie cutter. I honestly was never a big fan of the 1995 to 1998 NPG era.

Prince regained his form in my opinion with 3121, though I grew tired of Renato Neto's long winded synth solos.

From 1978 to 1994 For You to Coime was great. 1995 to 1998 NPG was boring. 1999 Rave was chasing trends, 2000/01 Rainbow Children was ok, just wierd. 2004 to present Musicology and on was Prince regaining his form (Planet Earth being the slight exception).

herb4 said:

Important to remember that a lot of it too is just how much music, and especially its marketing, is aimed at and primarily for the young. By the time Prince was promoting Rave, changing his name, showing up on MTV's TRL, releasing Emancipation, going on Oprah or pitching a 1999 New Years Eve concert, he was several years removed from Purple Rain.

Santana's success notwithstanding (and that was an outlier), younger audiences had moved on to things like The Spice Girls, hip hop, rap, Mariah Carey, grunge, and 100 bands you can't even remember or name right now etc. They weren't into U2, Stevie Wonder, Madonna or The Police either. NO KID who hits puberty (or almost no kid) wants to lock into what their parents think is cool. Sometimes they do if they have good taste but not usually. They want their OWN THING. They were into Limp Biscuit, Rage Agains the Machine and all that. Bascially anything their parents don't get.

For example: my parents had pretty decent taste in music and had a rather bitching record collection - Stones, Pink Floyd, Led Zep, Elton John, Sly Stone, Alice Cooper - But by the time I was seeking to develop my own tastes, I sought out KISS, Journey, Van Halen and later on, new wave and underground/college shit and, yes, Prince. Anything that was NOT in my parent's collection. I honestly think PART of what struck me about Prince in 83 was that my parents DID NOT GET IT...AT ALL...and that made it cooler.

I think that's just the way it is. Youthful rebellion. And music is a BIG part of it. Also important to remember that Santana needed the crossover with the Matchbox 20 guy and the lightening he struck was a total fluke. If he'd released that song as a single without ROb Thomas...nothing.

Music and rock and roll is sexual in nature and NO CHILD wants their sexual identity tied in any way to their parents, and seeking out their own style is part of them establishing their own identity. I didn't revisit and really learn to appreciate the stuff my folks listened to until I was older beyond Elton John, who I loved as a kid.

More than likely, your typical YOUNG music buyer during these "low points" only knew Prince from PR, the assless pants thing on MTV and maybe one of his movies, which wouldn't have helped at all with his "cool" factor for them.

I mean, shit, my son is 9 and about to develop tastes of his sooner than later and I doubt it's gonna involve anything I've ever heard of. I couldn't name one band or musician in the top 20 right now I don't think beond the obvious ones. And maybe even then.

This strikes me as pretty offbase analysis - Madonna and Michael Jackson (his actual peers) were still scoring hits and #1s in 1999 and for several years after that. Why? Because they evolved their sound to make it sound more modern. For example - Madonna brought in French DJ Mirwais and bagged a #1 with "Music" in 2000 which blended her 80s sound with the European House/electronic dance sound. Michael Jackson brought in Darkchild and melded his Disco/R&B sound with more hip-hop oriented sounds on "You Rock My World" in 2001.

Prince? Prince was producing himself as he always had done and was laying down tired funk grooves with some uber-clean contemporary R&B production that sounded hopelessly generic. The failure of Rave didn't have anything to do with kids not buying his music - as the record sales showed, their parents weren't even buying his music! If you're going to try and make commercial music, at least get the pros involved - don't halfass it.

Thankfully he would come back with The Rainbow Children, which wasn't commercial, and was true to who he was at the time. It's a deep record with real meaning and I'm sure he wasn't aiming for it to go 5x platinum or anything of the sort, which made it all the better.

[Edited 4/2/20 19:33pm]

'Greatest Hits' shows with little or no 'new' album material.

Yes, this point lasted a few years...

sro100 said:

MattyJam said:

sro100 said: Did he really say that?

Yes. ( I might have paraphrased a word or 2?)

He was ADAMANT that Christ did not die on the cross.

That it was the stauros.

And that this distinction is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

That's when he kind-of lost me for a bit...

For someone non-religious, that detail seemed monumentally insignificant.

leecaldon said:

When he stopped the Black Album. Once he censored himself, it was a slow decline to his ultra religious JW bullshit.

Low Point? I am going to take a little different angle on this topic. Nothing he ever did as far as an artist could I say ever dissapointed me. Everyone has highs and lows in their lives, and musicians are no different. I have no musical ability, so as far as I am concerned, who am I to judge?

No, this was my lowest point, where I felt absolutely the worst, and it happened in 2017. It was August, my birthday trip from my husband. We were in a beautiful atrium, and believe it or not, at that time, the tour guides told you to "look up" at the small miniature of Paisley Park, his ashes are inside...

Now whether they were, or were not, or have ever been there before the Estate took them off display, you should not do that! It hit me like a ton of bricks. I needed to sit down, but there really was no place to do so. At least at Graceland, you know you are going to a gravesite, so there can be reverance.

For me - thinking in "real-time" rather than hindsight - it was "The Rainbow Children." Such a bewildering spectacle of an album. I hear the argument that the musicianship trumps the concept, the narration, the impenetrable lyrics... but it doesn't. Maybe without lyrics it could possibly be the most listenable instrumental album in his catalog (but that's not saying much, let's be blatantly honest). Prince's identity as an artist is only rarely glimpsed throughout this dud.

.

In hindsight it was the split from Warner Bros. - disastrous. Any argument against that assessment is, in fact, denial. Warner Bros. allowed Prince the room to become Prince. Arguably no major label has allowed an artist to develop and flourish so fully - especially a flashpoint for controversy as he often was. It's nothing short of unthinkable what Prince might've become had he not been under the stewardship of this label.

.

On his own - "emancipated" - he was rudderless for the remainder of his career.

Which was the whole point that people never understood in the first place

inovio said:

P never had to explain himself and never will, the reason he wrote slave on his face is because the term slave and master is used in the music industry to describe how music is made and who owns the music, the master is the original copy, the slave is well the copy. Prince is American he knows American history.

udo said:

'Greatest Hits' shows with little or no 'new' album material.

Yes, this point lasted a few years...

I totally get that. But my first show was a Hit N Run in 2000 - and seeing him play so many hits/classic, was a joy.

Fifty shows later, all I wanted was rare and previously unheard stuff. But friends coming for the first time wanted Purple Rain etc. Glad to have all those aftershows!

Live - for me the low point was 1997-1999, never dug that band or the 97-98 tours

album wise - probably similar 1997-2000

FunkyStrange said:

Live - for me the low point was 1997-1999, never dug that band or the 97-98 tours

album wise - probably similar 1997-2000

And interestingly, in line with other comments, this was also PEAK JW time...

Rave era 99 - 2000.

jaawwnn said:

sro100 said:

Yes. ( I might have paraphrased a word or 2?)

He was ADAMANT that Christ did not die on the cross.

That it was the stauros.

And that this distinction is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

That's when he kind-of lost me for a bit...

The whole 23 scriptures was kind of tongue-in-cheek though, no? I seem to remember he said it with a bit of a smile, kind of laughing at himself.

The Cross turning into The Christ irks me a million times more though, not sure why, seemed more humourless.

I quite enjoyed sexuality being turned into spirituality though, have to say.



Anyway, my personal prince low-point was probably everything to do with the whole Andy Allo saga, sorry. I just found the whole watching him publicly chase her around embarassing for him.

[Edited 4/1/20 2:41am]

jaawwnn said:

sro100 said:

Yes. ( I might have paraphrased a word or 2?)

He was ADAMANT that Christ did not die on the cross.

That it was the stauros.

And that this distinction is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

That's when he kind-of lost me for a bit...

The whole 23 scriptures was kind of tongue-in-cheek though, no? I seem to remember he said it with a bit of a smile, kind of laughing at himself.

The Cross turning into The Christ irks me a million times more though, not sure why, seemed more humourless.

I quite enjoyed sexuality being turned into spirituality though, have to say.



Anyway, my personal prince low-point was probably everything to do with the whole Andy Allo saga, sorry. I just found the whole watching him publicly chase her around embarassing for him.

[Edited 4/1/20 2:41am]

Friend zoned .I think

jaawwnn said:

Anyway, my personal prince low-point was probably everything to do with the whole Andy Allo saga, sorry. I just found the whole watching him publicly chase her around embarassing for him.

[Edited 4/1/20 2:41am]

In what way was he publicly chasing her around?

FunkyStrange said:

FunkyStrange said:

Live - for me the low point was 1997-1999, never dug that band or the 97-98 tours

album wise - probably similar 1997-2000

And interestingly, in line with other comments, this was also PEAK JW time...

Surely peak JW time was 2001-2002? Which coincides with one of his most lauded tours - ONA.

Seeing the pictures of where he lived. It confirmed everything I ever thought and I got no joy from that. It reminded me of an ex-friend I have, to the public they seem to have everything, but the truth is quite the opposite.

[Edited 4/13/20 0:47am]

sro100 said:

My Prince low point was when I finally listened to his first four albums (For You -> Controversy) in the early-mid 90s (at some point between the release of Come and Gold Experience). Those embryonic first four were initially a series of crushing disappointments for me.

TrivialPursuit said:

The Rainbow Children. Cultic dogma, arrogance, soapbox. Not interested, in the least.

It changed Prince forever, and his career was spotty after that. He stopped cussing, he changed his lyrics to a point that it was downright embarassing. "work that body like ya want some more" "it's mainly a spiritual thing" UGGG. I'd rather him not sing those songs at all than butchering them the way he did. "Days of Wild" sounded like garbage after he changed all those lyrics. Give me the CB version any day rather than the NPGMC era version.

Folks gonna get upset about that, but it is what it is.

Definitely this. I literally stopped buying Prince records after Rainbow Children. I could follow him down many paths, but sexism, anti-semetism... I just couldn't. It was so sad, too. Here's the man who wrote brilliant liberatory music like Erotic City, and he went with the Lizard people. Tragic. There were even some homophobic comments he had to do a full reverse on in the media...and that story about Wendy and Lisa being told to renounce being gay to participate in the first Celebration. Awful period.

TheBoneRanger said:

My Prince low point was when I finally listened to his first four albums (For You -> Controversy) in the early-mid 90s (at some point between the release of Come and Gold Experience). Those embryonic first four were initially a series of crushing disappointments for me.

You do understand how young he was when he composed all those records, right? They're not my favorites either but it's weird to call out a young kid just starting out and getting shit started as a "low point". At least to me. He did all those records basically by himself before he was barely old enough to drink.

I look at a lot of drawings I did when I was his age and, sure, they don't really hold up now but they were better than most other people my age could do back then. I'm not a fan at all of the first two records but how can you not appreciate Dirty Mind and Controversy at least?

Just seems odd to cite a young wonderkind just learning his chops as a "low point". To me that's like saying Michael Jordan's first few years sucked because he hadn't won a championship yet.

herb4 said:

TheBoneRanger said:

My Prince low point was when I finally listened to his first four albums (For You -> Controversy) in the early-mid 90s (at some point between the release of Come and Gold Experience). Those embryonic first four were initially a series of crushing disappointments for me.

You do understand how young he was when he composed all those records, right? They're not my favorites either but it's weird to call out a young kid just starting out and getting shit started as a "low point". At least to me. He did all those records basically by himself before he was barely old enough to drink.

I look at a lot of drawings I did when I was his age and, sure, they don't really hold up now but they were better than most other people my age could do back then. I'm not a fan at all of the first two records but how can you not appreciate Dirty Mind and Controversy at least?

Just seems odd to cite a young wonderkind just learning his chops as a "low point". To me that's like saying Michael Jordan's first few years sucked because he hadn't won a championship yet.

Yes, I don't get it, because they are genuinely great albums.

herb4 said:

TheBoneRanger said:

My Prince low point was when I finally listened to his first four albums (For You -> Controversy) in the early-mid 90s (at some point between the release of Come and Gold Experience). Those embryonic first four were initially a series of crushing disappointments for me.

You do understand how young he was when he composed all those records, right? They're not my favorites either but it's weird to call out a young kid just starting out and getting shit started as a "low point". At least to me. He did all those records basically by himself before he was barely old enough to drink.

I look at a lot of drawings I did when I was his age and, sure, they don't really hold up now but they were better than most other people my age could do back then. I'm not a fan at all of the first two records but how can you not appreciate Dirty Mind and Controversy at least?

Just seems odd to cite a young wonderkind just learning his chops as a "low point". To me that's like saying Michael Jordan's first few years sucked because he hadn't won a championship yet.

Yeah, of course. And I definitely appreciate them now. But I didn't start actively consuming Prince's music until 1990, working my way backwards while also buying his new albums as they came out. It took a few years to get everything because I was also buying other music, too. So that was a few years of having my mind blown before I finally got around to those first four.

-

These days I'm really enjoying Controversy almost as much as 1999 (I'm surprised that I was so disappointed with it back then). Both "Head" and "Sexy Dancer" are in my top ten favorite Prince songs. I think "For You" is quite masterful at what it is...it's such a beautiful time capsule back to late 70s soul and disco as well as harboring some pretty fiery rock guitar on the last track (Prince is just ripping those arpeggios like nobody's business!).

-

But, yeah...when I first heard them that's the most disappointed I've ever been with Prince. And while there were other low points, such as Kamasutra and Planet Earth, I wasn't really as hyped up for them like I was for hearing his early, main albums.

There were a few along the way but the one that springs to mind right now is TMBGITW lip synched performance on he World Music Awards. It was cringe worthy imo..

My personal low point was in the late 90s when he played a local show and I didn't even know about it until I saw an announcement in the newspaper highlighting the biggest concerts of that week. It was at a general admission venue so it had long ago sold out of course. I realized then that Prince had moved so far down on my music priority list that his local shows were now passing me by without my knowledge which I would have considered unfathomable even five years earlier. I rectified that after the One Nite Alone tour (great concert at Lincoln Center) by joining the NPGMC and getting front row tickets to a few Musicology shows. From that point on if I missed a show it was because I chose not to go, not because I wasn't aware of it.

sro100 said:

Everyone pretty much digs different Prince eras differently.

For me, the low would be when he started to go on-and-on about the stauros and changing lyrics like "23 Scriptures in a One Night Stand."

That said, it was still Prince being true to himself and I did dig the lyrical "Somebody lied about the way somebody died."

Y'all?

Larry Graham converting him to a JW!