First one I remember---"Jughead"

Yep....he seemed to turning away from this towards the end (or just doing a better job of hiding it) but this was a huge letdown.

TrivialPursuit said:

The Rainbow Children. Cultic dogma, arrogance, soapbox. Not interested, in the least.

It changed Prince forever, and his career was spotty after that. He stopped cussing, he changed his lyrics to a point that it was downright embarassing. "work that body like ya want some more" "it's mainly a spiritual thing" UGGG. I'd rather him not sing those songs at all than butchering them the way he did. "Days of Wild" sounded like garbage after he changed all those lyrics. Give me the CB version any day rather than the NPGMC era version.

Folks gonna get upset about that, but it is what it is.

[Edited 3/30/20 8:54am]

The New Power Generation I'd say, starting around Diamonds & Pearls. There's a lot of interesting material don't get me wrong, but it was all downhill from there.

I respect the opinion of those who criticize TRC period and beyond, but I struggle with how any fan can apprciate his evolution without embracing that period of spiritual growth for him. For those who had a problem with his views on religion and society for the last 16 or so years of his life are really missing out on who is is and what truly made him great. If you took 1978-1988 away, would you still be a fan? I feel bad for those who would say no to that question. It seems to me that the fans that embrace the last 16 years either are younger fans or were fans before 1982. There is something to be said about that.

Man, lots of peoples Prince low points are many of my high points! I guess it's presumptive of me to think everyone will also list Musicology as their low point

funkaholic1972 said:

Well, I would say Emancipation was a real low to me. After a few bumpy years with albums (Come, TGE and Chaos & Disorder) that didn't really convince me like his earlier stuff he was already losing me as a faithful customer. But he kept saying Emancipation was the record he was born to make, that he saved his best material for this album and now that he was finally free from his WB contract he would finally unleash all this great material.

It got me all hyped up, until I went to the record store to buy it. I always bought new Prince albums on the first day of release without listening first, but that day I got a hunch to first listen to it because it was an expensive 3 cd album. My oh my, was I disappointed after I had reached the end of cd 3! It sounded like lifeless sugary plastic drivel to me. I left the shop upset and in disbelief and didn't buy the set until I could purchase it really cheap, just for completeness sake. It seemed my Prince had completely lost it artistically and musically. Also I hated the way he looked and styled himself during the 90's, it looked so out of touch with that era. It diminished my interest in Prince for at least 5 years, until TRC was released.

Oh yeah, I second that. The material that ended up on Come and TGE first came to me throgh boots of live renditions that were spectacular so the studioversions in the end were a bit dissapointing. But then came this big pooha about Emanciptaion, THREE CDs of material in one go, nobody to hold him back, he had total free reign... ad the you get this really slick plastic pop production with absolutely no edge. I was really dissapointed and it ddidn't make sense. Also the launch peformance in he PP stage was so overly slick. I wanted to like it but no...

TRC is a difficult one for me. Musically I like it's quirkyness, the mix of a jazzy feel and James Brown. But I'm an atheist/agnostic so contentwise I felt it was largely silly religious nonsense.

HitnRun Phase 1 was a real stinker to me as well. For the first time he allows someone else to co-produce stuff and it lowered the material that wasn't good to begin with, to a feeble attempt to get the young folk interested. It felt more like a break for Joshua than something he was actually interested in.

I think this was also the beginning of where I started to have my doubts whether he was still interested in creating new music. My impression was that he now modeled himself more as a coach, an Obi Wan Kenobi to help and support their talents and just have fun on stage.

donnyenglish said:

I respect the opinion of those who criticize TRC period and beyond, but I struggle with how any fan can apprciate his evolution without embracing that period of spiritual growth for him. For those who had a problem with his views on religion and society for the last 16 or so years of his life are really missing out on who is is and what truly made him great. If you took 1978-1988 away, would you still be a fan? I feel bad for those who would say no to that question. It seems to me that the fans that embrace the last 16 years either are younger fans or were fans before 1982. There is something to be said about that.

Prince was always spritual, and I don't think the fact that sex took a backseat in his music was the issue. We all (hopefully) grow spiritually with age, our views change because of life experiences but the hard turn towards a religious sect with the preaching that tainted interviews and music... that was not spiritual growth at all. Most fans, if they ever fell into that trap were not going to go there.

The latter years he left the preaching and turned more into being a good person without waving that fake bible around, though, no doubt, still being a religous person.

Larry Graham and the JW took advantage of his search for answers and support when his son died. That I still find utterly disgusting.

Musically the post-Emancipation pre-TRC era, especially Rave and the NPGMC material. Other than that, all the nasty, spiteful things he said in interviews in the 00s - put a stain on him that will never wash away.

NouveauDance said:

Musically the post-Emancipation pre-TRC era, especially Rave and the NPGMC material. Other than that, all the nasty, spiteful things he said in interviews in the 00s - put a stain on him that will never wash away.

Yeah...this era was one for me too. I remember hearing Digitial Garden on one of the NPGMC audio shows and it was a breath of fresh air! I had no idea what the hell he was singing about but the music defnitely got me excited for the first time in awhile.

SimonCharles said:

TrivialPursuit said:

The Rainbow Children. Cultic dogma, arrogance, soapbox. Not interested, in the least.

It changed Prince forever, and his career was spotty after that. He stopped cussing, he changed his lyrics to a point that it was downright embarassing. "work that body like ya want some more" "it's mainly a spiritual thing" UGGG. I'd rather him not sing those songs at all than butchering them the way he did. "Days of Wild" sounded like garbage after he changed all those lyrics. Give me the CB version any day rather than the NPGMC era version.

Folks gonna get upset about that, but it is what it is.

This is an interesting post - see, I really liked The Rainbow Children. I thought/think the musicianship and composition is some of Prince's (and the band's) best. It was certainly one of the best live touring shows he did, again in my opinion. I didn't mind the religiosity of the album because it came across to me as authentic, on his part. I don't agree with it, I don't share the belief, but I can appreciate somesthing sincerely felt in others - if you know what I mean?

*

On the other hand, I am completely with you on the changing lyrics point. Don't sing the song. Even more so, don't tease your audience that you're going to sing a song and then don't - whilst looking coy and shocked...that's where the authenticity mask started to slip, for me. And, yes, it was embarrassing, and I felt, as an audience member, like I was being condescended to.

I feel you, even if I don't agree with their beliefs or mindsets, I can appreciate and like the music and lyrics when I feel it comes from an authentic pleace. Nothing to add for your second statement, wholeheartedly agree, better keep those songs out of the setlist, but don't fuck with them changin the essence.

eyewishuheaven said:

Poplife88 said:

Symbol album sucked...then he changed his name...He totally lost me for about 2 years after that. I had no idea Come was even released. A friend of mine gave me a tape of Gold Experience songs and a bunch of unreleased stuff I hadn’t never heard before...all was forgiven after that. I’m still not a fan of Symbol beyond 7 and God Crated Woman.

I find this really interesting... you were totally on board with Diamonds and Pearls, but put off by ?

Everybody seems to like something different. There's never been a consensus past PR, 1999 and SoTT. If I were to make/compile a posthumous HITS/BSIDES album, I highly doubt my compilation would match anyone else's. He was SO versatile and appealed to so many different people in so many different ways to the point that I've often felt he defied categorization.

So much of it comes down to a cross between personal musical tastes and the so many genres that Prince was good at. SOOO many fans adore the ballads but they leave me wanting and mostly all sound the same. Others like the hard funk (like me) and the more rock oriented stuff (also like me).

Others like the spiritual jazzy stuff. Or the experimental pop tunes. I like a lot of his studio weirdness where he went all Dr. Frankenstein on my ass.

Beyond the commercial hits, there IS no definitive "best of" to be found and, speaking as a hardcore fan, 10 or 20 of Prince's best songs essentially completely unknown the world at large. Which is kind of odd because this doesn't really happen with bands like, say, the Stones, Led Zep or what have you. He's not The Eagles, where you can release a safe, middle of the road, fairly unchallenging record like The Eagle's Greatest Hits and make it the biggest selling record of all time. He had too much range.

That's what made him so great IMO.

He was, at heart, an underground artist. He COULD write top 40 shit but I think it bored him.

NouveauDance said:

Musically the post-Emancipation pre-TRC era, especially Rave and the NPGMC material. Other than that, all the nasty, spiteful things he said in interviews in the 00s - put a stain on him that will never wash away.

interesting

I honestly think that Prince knew that about himself and was a big reason he largley avoided interviews and played the games he did with journalists. I enjoyed the whole ride. Aside from Planet Earth and NEWS, he was never boring.

And I NEVER got fans having weird hang ups about his look as a jumping off point for getting turned off.

Fucking guy started with gay disco skater and went to bikini briefs and a trench coat all the way through gerry curls, sequins and all the weird shifts thru Parade and SoTT. To say nothing of the gaudy Lovesexy outfits and the assless pants of D&P on national TV. People here were tripping about a CORSET on the Planet Earth cover. For a while he dressed like a Jehova's Witness. Always struck me as a weird thing for fans to get hung up on.

I LOVED it all, some more than others, but he never looked the same twice and was punk/funk as fuck about it til the end. Who else dressed that wild and lasted that long? Wish I could dress however the fuck I wanted to every day and give two shits what anyone thought.

My man was Bold as Love.

herb4 said:

Poplife88 said:

GB London 1995

SimonCharles said:

Vannormal said:

-

Saying very nasty things about Wendy & Lisa,

or to put it succinctly; to be guided and dragged through the poison called religion,

a way of thinking that robs your freedom of thinking.

+

the untouchability that stardom brings with it, and all creative decisions

being made after that

(led to little quality and an aspiring recognition...)

-

...I feel very philosophical today, sorry for that - covid-19 driven

:-/

-

I thihnk it was the Diamonds & Pearls Tour that had "Wendy & Lisa, please phone home" appear as part of the video loop, prior to the show. I remember feeling so very hopeful, at that point. To then hear the manner of his words about them subsequently was really disappointing, yes.

*

Your point about the untouchability, though - whilst I agree to a point, could you start to see a full circle occurring? That last album actually sounded like a Prince album, and actually sounded like he was coming to terms with the rarified air he breathed. It may be just me (and I know we are not supposed to mention the death here) but I do feel that we were properly robbed of a creative rennaisance in Prince's career. Could just be wishful thinking, obviously, but Phase II really has some first class material on it hinting at as a mature and fulfilling period of his career as the early to mid-80s.

[Edited 3/28/20 0:51am]

-

I remember the video loop with that message to W&L too.

I believe I understood that it was about pointing out to them that he could do it without them, being a big star, showing off with new friends, etc.. (I might be wrong though).

Like, look how big I made it without you guys. For me it felt not hopeful at all, rather tongue in cheek-ish.

-

I have to take a listen to his last album again, actually completely forgot about it to be honest.

Well it's a good day to listen to it again.

-

But I have to agree that we were 'properly robbed of a creative rennaisance' as you discribe it so well.

My point of view is that he started to open up in his stories during the Piano and a Microphone shows, and of course his to be completed biography. Only 'if'. With Prince we actually never knew, right ?

So all guessing aside, here's another guess...

The fact that he never wanted to look back and move on (kind of fleeing in the future), is never a good way of motivation to move on (imho).

From time to time one needs to reflect upon what's behind us. Just to clear all the excess burden and unresolved cases. Not so much to resolve it, but to kind of understand it. To see where one got this far, and to be able to move on with or without solutions.

I got the feeling that Prince felt he needed to clear up some past. Hence the biography, which is in fact a reflection on all things. He seemed ready to be behave more matured while ageing, and accept the situation.

From that perspective I believe/hoped it would give him new oxygen.

But we will never know for sure of course.

-

sro100 said:

MattyJam said:

sro100 said: Did he really say that?

Yes. ( I might have paraphrased a word or 2?)

He was ADAMANT that Christ did not die on the cross.

That it was the stauros.

And that this distinction is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

That's when he kind-of lost me for a bit...

The whole 23 scriptures was kind of tongue-in-cheek though, no? I seem to remember he said it with a bit of a smile, kind of laughing at himself.

The Cross turning into The Christ irks me a million times more though, not sure why, seemed more humourless.

I quite enjoyed sexuality being turned into spirituality though, have to say.



Anyway, my personal prince low-point was probably everything to do with the whole Andy Allo saga, sorry. I just found the whole watching him publicly chase her around embarassing for him.

[Edited 4/1/20 2:41am]

rednblue said:

Poplife88 said:

I was fading with D&P but loved Gett Off and liked enough tracks on it that I didn’t totally hate it. Sexy MF was ok when it came out as a single...but My Name is Prince was and still is a disaster imo. It was the first album that I kept skipping songs waiting to hear a decent one...it finally happened with 7 but it was too little too late by that point.

Damn U, Sacrifice of Victor weren’t helping?

Not a fan of either. Sorta liked the lyrics in Sacrifice but the music did nothing for me.

Another thing I hated about Symbol? Kirstie Ally. Just no.

[Edited 4/1/20 5:33am]

Poplife88 said:

Poplife88 said:

rednblue said:

Poplife88 said:

Not a fan of either. Sorta liked the lyrics in Sacrifice but the music did nothing for me.

Another thing I hated about Symbol? Kirstie Ally. Just no.

[Edited 4/1/20 5:33am]

Previous reply re: fun hearing everyone’s tastes was serious...just in case it came off sarcastic. Here’s a couple more, then I’ll stop with the Symbol third degree. The Continental? Mistake for P to have added Eye Wanna Melt With U? Album so mediocre it doesn’t really matter one way or the other?

Ha! Eye Wanna Melt With U?? Awful.

I also really missed Rosie G on this. She was a welcome addition on D&P.

The thing is, I can usually find some redeeming quality on his albums. Even The Vault and NPS...each I have learned to at least like over the years. This is the one for some reason I just can't warm up to. Oh well.

[Edited 4/1/20 6:36am]

1999 the new master

herb4 said:

eyewishuheaven said:

I find this really interesting... you were totally on board with Diamonds and Pearls, but put off by ?

Everybody seems to like something different. There's never been a consensus past PR, 1999 and SoTT. If I were to make/compile a posthumous HITS/BSIDES album, I highly doubt my compilation would match anyone else's. He was SO versatile and appealed to so many different people in so many different ways to the point that I've often felt he defied categorization.

So much of it comes down to a cross between personal musical tastes and the so many genres that Prince was good at. SOOO many fans adore the ballads but they leave me wanting and mostly all sound the same. Others like the hard funk (like me) and the more rock oriented stuff (also like me).

Others like the spiritual jazzy stuff. Or the experimental pop tunes. I like a lot of his studio weirdness where he went all Dr. Frankenstein on my ass.

Beyond the commercial hits, there IS no definitive "best of" to be found and, speaking as a hardcore fan, 10 or 20 of Prince's best songs essentially completely unknown the world at large. Which is kind of odd because this doesn't really happen with bands like, say, the Stones, Led Zep or what have you. He's not The Eagles, where you can release a safe, middle of the road, fairly unchallenging record like The Eagle's Greatest Hits and make it the biggest selling record of all time. He had too much range.

That's what made him so great IMO.

He was, at heart, an underground artist. He COULD write top 40 shit but I think it bored him.

This. I've been thinking if there was a "most overrated song" thread, TMBGITW would be a contender. He could obviously knock out a massive hit without really trying. Heck, does anyone doubt "Black Sweat" would have been bigger if he had been 10-12 years younger and more media friendly?

mtlfan said:

herb4 said:

Everybody seems to like something different. There's never been a consensus past PR, 1999 and SoTT. If I were to make/compile a posthumous HITS/BSIDES album, I highly doubt my compilation would match anyone else's. He was SO versatile and appealed to so many different people in so many different ways to the point that I've often felt he defied categorization.

So much of it comes down to a cross between personal musical tastes and the so many genres that Prince was good at. SOOO many fans adore the ballads but they leave me wanting and mostly all sound the same. Others like the hard funk (like me) and the more rock oriented stuff (also like me).

Others like the spiritual jazzy stuff. Or the experimental pop tunes. I like a lot of his studio weirdness where he went all Dr. Frankenstein on my ass.

Beyond the commercial hits, there IS no definitive "best of" to be found and, speaking as a hardcore fan, 10 or 20 of Prince's best songs essentially completely unknown the world at large. Which is kind of odd because this doesn't really happen with bands like, say, the Stones, Led Zep or what have you. He's not The Eagles, where you can release a safe, middle of the road, fairly unchallenging record like The Eagle's Greatest Hits and make it the biggest selling record of all time. He had too much range.

That's what made him so great IMO.

He was, at heart, an underground artist. He COULD write top 40 shit but I think it bored him.

This. I've been thinking if there was a "most overrated song" thread, TMBGITW would be a contender. He could obviously knock out a massive hit without really trying. Heck, does anyone doubt "Black Sweat" would have been bigger if he had been 10-12 years younger and more media friendly?

He did have a lot riding on TMBWGITW being a success though. It was his first independent release and it was in the middle of his spat with Warner Bros. who reluctantly allowed him to release it without them. It was important for it to do well and it took a fairly sizeable amount of effort/promotion to get it to sell well enough to chart, and only then did radio play it.

Black Sweat is an interesting case because, at the time, if you bought the single on iTunes you were entered into a sweepstakes to get a personal Prince concert (audience of one!). I imagine a lot of people bought it as a way to get access to the contest, which allowed it to chart. After a week it fell off entirely though.

Mikado said:

mtlfan said:

This. I've been thinking if there was a "most overrated song" thread, TMBGITW would be a contender. He could obviously knock out a massive hit without really trying. Heck, does anyone doubt "Black Sweat" would have been bigger if he had been 10-12 years younger and more media friendly?

He did have a lot riding on TMBWGITW being a success though. It was his first independent release and it was in the middle of his spat with Warner Bros. who reluctantly allowed him to release it without them. It was important for it to do well and it took a fairly sizeable amount of effort/promotion to get it to sell well enough to chart, and only then did radio play it.

Black Sweat is an interesting case because, at the time, if you bought the single on iTunes you were entered into a sweepstakes to get a personal Prince concert (audience of one!). I imagine a lot of people bought it as a way to get access to the contest, which allowed it to chart. After a week it fell off entirely though.

Oh, totally, which is why I think he went the direct route: writing a song about how girls/women are beautiful. If James Blunt can do it...

At the last Prince show I saw (a P+M aftershow), Black Sweat brought the house down. Prince having a hit at his age with his track record in the media was unlikely (without your aforementioned sweepstakes), but I think in some parallel universe, it could have been a BIG hit.

OMG dude, just shut the fuck up. No one wants to chant "THEOCRATIC ORDAH!"

Important to remember that a lot of it too is just how much music, and especially its marketing, is aimed at and primarily for the young. By the time Prince was promoting Rave, changing his name, showing up on MTV's TRL, releasing Emancipation, going on Oprah or pitching a 1999 New Years Eve concert, he was several years removed from Purple Rain.

Santana's success notwithstanding (and that was an outlier), younger audiences had moved on to things like The Spice Girls, hip hop, rap, Mariah Carey, grunge, and 100 bands you can't even remember or name right now etc. They weren't into U2, Stevie Wonder, Madonna or The Police either. NO KID who hits puberty (or almost no kid) wants to lock into what their parents think is cool. Sometimes they do if they have good taste but not usually. They want their OWN THING. They were into Limp Biscuit, Rage Agains the Machine and all that. Bascially anything their parents don't get.

For example: my parents had pretty decent taste in music and had a rather bitching record collection - Stones, Pink Floyd, Led Zep, Elton John, Sly Stone, Alice Cooper - But by the time I was seeking to develop my own tastes, I sought out KISS, Journey, Van Halen and later on, new wave and underground/college shit and, yes, Prince. Anything that was NOT in my parent's collection. I honestly think PART of what struck me about Prince in 83 was that my parents DID NOT GET IT...AT ALL...and that made it cooler.

I think that's just the way it is. Youthful rebellion. And music is a BIG part of it. Also important to remember that Santana needed the crossover with the Matchbox 20 guy and the lightening he struck was a total fluke. If he'd released that song as a single without ROb Thomas...nothing.

Music and rock and roll is sexual in nature and NO CHILD wants their sexual identity tied in any way to their parents, and seeking out their own style is part of them establishing their own identity. I didn't revisit and really learn to appreciate the stuff my folks listened to until I was older beyond Elton John, who I loved as a kid.

More than likely, your typical YOUNG music buyer during these "low points" only knew Prince from PR, the assless pants thing on MTV and maybe one of his movies, which wouldn't have helped at all with his "cool" factor for them.

I mean, shit, my son is 9 and about to develop tastes of his sooner than later and I doubt it's gonna involve anything I've ever heard of. I couldn't name one band or musician in the top 20 right now I don't think beond the obvious ones. And maybe even then.

herb4 said:

Important to remember that a lot of it too is just how much music, and especially its marketing, is aimed at and primarily for the young. By the time Prince was promoting Rave, changing his name, showing up on MTV's TRL, releasing Emancipation, going on Oprah or pitching a 1999 New Years Eve concert, he was several years removed from Purple Rain.

Santana's success notwithstanding (and that was an outlier), younger audiences had moved on to things like The Spice Girls, hip hop, rap, Mariah Carey, grunge, and 100 bands you can't even remember or name right now etc. They weren't into U2, Stevie Wonder, Madonna or The Police either. NO KID who hits puberty (or almost no kid) wants to lock into what their parents think is cool. Sometimes they do if they have good taste but not usually. They want their OWN THING. They were into Limp Biscuit, Rage Agains the Machine and all that. Bascially anything their parents don't get.

For example: my parents had pretty decent taste in music and had a rather bitching record collection - Stones, Pink Floyd, Led Zep, Elton John, Sly Stone, Alice Cooper - But by the time I was seeking to develop my own tastes, I sought out KISS, Journey, Van Halen and later on, new wave and underground/college shit and, yes, Prince. Anything that was NOT in my parent's collection. I honestly think PART of what struck me about Prince in 83 was that my parents DID NOT GET IT...AT ALL...and that made it cooler.

I think that's just the way it is. Youthful rebellion. And music is a BIG part of it. Also important to remember that Santana needed the crossover with the Matchbox 20 guy and the lightening he struck was a total fluke. If he'd released that song as a single without ROb Thomas...nothing.

Music and rock and roll is sexual in nature and NO CHILD wants their sexual identity tied in any way to their parents, and seeking out their own style is part of them establishing their own identity. I didn't revisit and really learn to appreciate the stuff my folks listened to until I was older beyond Elton John, who I loved as a kid.

More than likely, your typical YOUNG music buyer during these "low points" only knew Prince from PR, the assless pants thing on MTV and maybe one of his movies, which wouldn't have helped at all with his "cool" factor for them.

I mean, shit, my son is 9 and about to develop tastes of his sooner than later and I doubt it's gonna involve anything I've ever heard of. I couldn't name one band or musician in the top 20 right now I don't think beond the obvious ones. And maybe even then.

Man I was 14 going on 15 when Emancipation dropped, so basically in the target audience of MTV (or, up here in Canada, what was once Much Music). I already liked Prince, and I remember the Emancipation commercial in heavy rotation, as well as an "Egos and Icons" special on Prince - I can still see him getting interviewed against a snowy mountain backdrop. My gen-X brothers and their friends were into Prince, but nobody my age (elder millennial) was interested. And I'm telling you: if he hadn't released "Betcha By Golly Wow," with a video full of babies no teenager is going to care about, things MIGHT have been different. You're right: at the end of '96 it was Spice Girls, Backstreet Boys, grunge having its last gasp before nu metal a few years later (with Foo Fighters carrying the torch from Nirvana and Beck and Radiohead dropping genuinely new sounds). "Honey" was big for Mariah Carey and then we had years of Puff Daddy and to a lesser extent Mace crammed down our throats.

I'd say you're wrong about U2 and Madonna, because Pop and later Ray of Light were everywhere. Which makes me think: if Prince had released "Sleep Around" with a solid video, he might have had a successful maxi-single. But what teen can afford a triple CD?

Actually, I'm now thinking "Betcha By Golly Wow" is my Prince low point. Why release a cover as your lead single when you're one of the most original hit-making artists pop music has ever seen?

For me, it was not one thing but a series of things that made it harder to feel like a dedicated fan:

1. My Name Is Prince single. By far his worst first single from an album up till then.

2. The name change somewhat, but even more when he said it was okay to call him "The Artist".

3. Releasing so much material 1995 to 1999 if you include the CB release, choosing quantity over

quality.

4. SLAVE.

5. Right after several consecutive years of alienating his fans, then selling the importance of joining

his music club.

6, Jehovah Witness conversion

5. TRC (Yes I respect it more now) and N.E.W.S.

None of these things were a deal breaker, as I respected his right to do whatever the hell he wanted to do. However together they served to increasingly alienate me from my favorite musician!