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Thread started 12/02/19 6:11pm

controversy99

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Existing releases with Reverb on Vocals

There are complaints about reverb on the vocals of the two most recent vault releases. Some say Prince hardly ever used reverb on his vocals or didn't use it during the particular era. But are these claims about his existing studio releases accurate? I'm not great with the technical terminology or effect, so I'm genuinely curious. There are fair number of Prince tracks that had some kind of reverb, delay, and/or echo on the vocals. Thinking about 1999 era, I hear some reverb or something that gives the vocals a fuller or more spacey feel on:

Something in the Water (Does Not Compute), Little Red Corvette, Home Come You Don't Call Me Anymore, DMSR, etc

I've even seen older discussions on the Org that very complementary of Prince's use of reverb on his vocals. For example:

https://prince.org/msg/7/358559
Subject: "The Echo of Purple Rain"
Folks on this thread generally liked Prince's reverb on vocals and even said that a lack of reverb on more recent releases might be a problem for some people.


"Love & honesty, peace & harmony"
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Reply #1 posted 12/03/19 2:10am

LoveGalore

I think the granular issue is that there are SOME songs where the estate allowed a heavy amount of reverb unnecessarily - great examples are Jungle Love and Sex Shooter.

.

Once the person doing the mixing confirmed the reverb was a modern production choice and not necessarily reflected in the demo reels, people had a reason to be upset. Now there's a name and face attached to their bugbear which may or may not be related to them still getting over Prince's death. There's gotta be something or someone to take out the anger/frustration on.

.

I do think the reverb on the above mentioned tracks is a LITTLE distracting because it isn't anywhere to be found on any of the demos or released versions of those songs. Jungle Love does not sound like it was recorded in a church hall and Sex Shooter doesn't even need the crazy echo.

.

Of course, Prince also did this shit to his songs and ruined them accordingly sometimes. Check out Crucial for a wonderful example of Prince drenching his vocals in reverb and destroying a classic.

.

Then you have tracks like The Ladder, Sometimes It Snows In April, and Little Red Corvette that are tastefully produced and have an amount of reverb (chosen by Prince i imagine) that emboldens the song rather than pulverizes it.

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Reply #2 posted 12/03/19 2:48am

lavendardrumma
chine

It's not just reverb, it's the type of reverb. You can even hear a difference between what was used on ATWIAD, Grafiti Bridge, Camille/Black album, and SOTT compared to previous records. Then it's a difference between using it as a pedal effect vs. a post effect, and linking it to the compression. It's lazy and my guess is it wasn't just done to sound more current, it was done to hide imperfections they didn't spend time on, or mask tape hiss. What bothers me is the backup vocals will sound to up front in the mix, and overly clear, then you realize how muddy and reverb heavy they made his vocal track.

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Reply #3 posted 12/03/19 7:35am

lurker316

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controversy99 said:

There are complaints about reverb on the vocals of the two most recent vault releases. Some say Prince hardly ever used reverb on his vocals or didn't use it during the particular era. But are these claims about his existing studio releases accurate? I'm not great with the technical terminology or effect, so I'm genuinely curious. There are fair number of Prince tracks that had some kind of reverb, delay, and/or echo on the vocals. Thinking about 1999 era, I hear some reverb or something that gives the vocals a fuller or more spacey feel on:

Something in the Water (Does Not Compute), Little Red Corvette, Home Come You Don't Call Me Anymore, DMSR, etc

I've even seen older discussions on the Org that very complementary of Prince's use of reverb on his vocals. For example:

https://prince.org/msg/7/358559
Subject: "The Echo of Purple Rain"
Folks on this thread generally liked Prince's reverb on vocals and even said that a lack of reverb on more recent releases might be a problem for some people.


That's an excellent question. I was going to make a similar post but you beat me to it.

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Reply #4 posted 12/03/19 7:38am

controversy99

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LoveGalore said:

I think the granular issue is that there are SOME songs where the estate allowed a heavy amount of reverb unnecessarily - great examples are Jungle Love and Sex Shooter.

.

Once the person doing the mixing confirmed the reverb was a modern production choice and not necessarily reflected in the demo reels, people had a reason to be upset. Now there's a name and face attached to their bugbear which may or may not be related to them still getting over Prince's death. There's gotta be something or someone to take out the anger/frustration on.

.

I do think the reverb on the above mentioned tracks is a LITTLE distracting because it isn't anywhere to be found on any of the demos or released versions of those songs. Jungle Love does not sound like it was recorded in a church hall and Sex Shooter doesn't even need the crazy echo.

.

Of course, Prince also did this shit to his songs and ruined them accordingly sometimes. Check out Crucial for a wonderful example of Prince drenching his vocals in reverb and destroying a classic.

.

Then you have tracks like The Ladder, Sometimes It Snows In April, and Little Red Corvette that are tastefully produced and have an amount of reverb (chosen by Prince i imagine) that emboldens the song rather than pulverizes it.

I think the comparison to the demos is the tricky part. Since the songs were never released, we don't know if Prince and/or his engineers, etc. would have added reverb prior to release. I personnally would rather have the demos/songs as is from Prince, but I can see an argument for adding reverb if it appears similarly in that era and/or if the engineers working with Prince at the time think it would have been added.

That's a good point about it possibly being needing to put anger on something/someone.

So far we have reverb on Little Red Corvette, The Ladder, Another Lonely Christmas, and I believe Purple Rain, I Would Die for You, and We Can Fuck for songs recorded in the 1981 to 1984 period. Plus I'm sure there's a lot more.

[Edited 12/3/19 7:49am]

"Love & honesty, peace & harmony"
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Reply #5 posted 12/03/19 7:38am

Genesia

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There's a lot of reverb on Another Lonely Christmas. I love it - sounds like he's screaming his grief to a star-filled sky. Or like it's echoing through the empty hallways of his broken heart.

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #6 posted 12/03/19 8:27am

LoveGalore

controversy99 said:

LoveGalore said:

I think the granular issue is that there are SOME songs where the estate allowed a heavy amount of reverb unnecessarily - great examples are Jungle Love and Sex Shooter.

.

Once the person doing the mixing confirmed the reverb was a modern production choice and not necessarily reflected in the demo reels, people had a reason to be upset. Now there's a name and face attached to their bugbear which may or may not be related to them still getting over Prince's death. There's gotta be something or someone to take out the anger/frustration on.

.

I do think the reverb on the above mentioned tracks is a LITTLE distracting because it isn't anywhere to be found on any of the demos or released versions of those songs. Jungle Love does not sound like it was recorded in a church hall and Sex Shooter doesn't even need the crazy echo.

.

Of course, Prince also did this shit to his songs and ruined them accordingly sometimes. Check out Crucial for a wonderful example of Prince drenching his vocals in reverb and destroying a classic.

.

Then you have tracks like The Ladder, Sometimes It Snows In April, and Little Red Corvette that are tastefully produced and have an amount of reverb (chosen by Prince i imagine) that emboldens the song rather than pulverizes it.

I think the comparison to the demos is the tricky part. Since the songs were never released, we don't know if Prince and/or his engineers, etc. would have added reverb prior to release. I personnally would rather have the demos/songs as is from Prince, but I can see an argument for adding reverb if it appears similarly in that era and/or if the engineers working with Prince at the time think it would have been added.

That's a good point about it possibly being needing to put anger on something/someone.

So far we have reverb on Little Red Corvette, The Ladder, Another Lonely Christmas, and I believe Purple Rain, I Would Die for You, and We Can Fuck for songs recorded in the 1981 to 1984 period. Plus I'm sure there's a lot more.

[Edited 12/3/19 7:49am]

Let's Go Crazy, The Beautiful Ones, Paisley Park, Girl, Christopher Tracy's Parade, the list goes on. I'd say it's at least 50/50.

.

While we can't necessarily compare or judge whether reverb coulda/woulda/shoulda been on most demos, we know the intention wasn't to add reverb to the lead vocals on Jungle Love or Sex Shooter. At least, in the case of Jungle Love, not nearly as wet as it is on Originals.

.

I like reverb, so I don't really care. In some songs, it sounds so damn good. In others, it's just like... Why? It is really all in how you do it and what the settings are.

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Reply #7 posted 12/03/19 8:39am

leadline

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LoveGalore said:

controversy99 said:

I think the comparison to the demos is the tricky part. Since the songs were never released, we don't know if Prince and/or his engineers, etc. would have added reverb prior to release. I personnally would rather have the demos/songs as is from Prince, but I can see an argument for adding reverb if it appears similarly in that era and/or if the engineers working with Prince at the time think it would have been added.

That's a good point about it possibly being needing to put anger on something/someone.

So far we have reverb on Little Red Corvette, The Ladder, Another Lonely Christmas, and I believe Purple Rain, I Would Die for You, and We Can Fuck for songs recorded in the 1981 to 1984 period. Plus I'm sure there's a lot more.

[Edited 12/3/19 7:49am]

Let's Go Crazy, The Beautiful Ones, Paisley Park, Girl, Christopher Tracy's Parade, the list goes on. I'd say it's at least 50/50.

.

While we can't necessarily compare or judge whether reverb coulda/woulda/shoulda been on most demos, we know the intention wasn't to add reverb to the lead vocals on Jungle Love or Sex Shooter. At least, in the case of Jungle Love, not nearly as wet as it is on Originals.

.

I like reverb, so I don't really care. In some songs, it sounds so damn good. In others, it's just like... Why? It is really all in how you do it and what the settings are.


Two historical examples we do have of whether these demos with no reverb would have had reverb on them when released and/or completed is the Crystal Ball and The Vault : Old Friends 4 Sale releases. I can't think of anything on either of these where the vocals were altered from the demos we had prior, so I think at least from that perspective, it would be safe argument to say these songs on Originals and 1999 SD would 'not' have had this reverb added.

[Edited 12/3/19 8:45am]

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #8 posted 12/03/19 8:44am

leadline

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LoveGalore said:

I think the granular issue is that there are SOME songs where the estate allowed a heavy amount of reverb unnecessarily - great examples are Jungle Love and Sex Shooter.

.

Once the person doing the mixing confirmed the reverb was a modern production choice and not necessarily reflected in the demo reels, people had a reason to be upset. Now there's a name and face attached to their bugbear which may or may not be related to them still getting over Prince's death. There's gotta be something or someone to take out the anger/frustration on.

.

I do think the reverb on the above mentioned tracks is a LITTLE distracting because it isn't anywhere to be found on any of the demos or released versions of those songs. Jungle Love does not sound like it was recorded in a church hall and Sex Shooter doesn't even need the crazy echo.

.

Of course, Prince also did this shit to his songs and ruined them accordingly sometimes. Check out Crucial for a wonderful example of Prince drenching his vocals in reverb and destroying a classic.

.

Then you have tracks like The Ladder, Sometimes It Snows In April, and Little Red Corvette that are tastefully produced and have an amount of reverb (chosen by Prince i imagine) that emboldens the song rather than pulverizes it.



Very well said LoveGalore, this represents fairly all of my frustrations in regards to this topic.

Jungle Love and Sex Shooter are indeed prime examples of this, and it was very unnecessary and distracting. Jungle Love vocals sounding like they are in a church makes it sound like someone is doing karaoke over an instrumental version, it just dissassociates his vocals from the track itself.

Two historical examples we do have of whether these demos with no reverb would have had reverb on them when released and/or completed is the Crystal Ball and The Vault : Old Friends 4 Sale releases. I can't think of anything on either of these where the vocals were altered from the demos we had prior, so I think at least from that perspective, it would be safe argument to say these songs on Originals and 1999 SD would 'not' have had this reverb added. Can anyone here imagine Jungle Love type reverb on Last Heart vocals? I don't think anyone would even consider that a possibility or a good idea.

It is almost as if these engineers are trying to add their own signature to Prince's music.....there is a time and place for everything, and curating Prince's music is definitely not the place for this. They have example after example in the vault of how is vocals were laid out, all they need to do is follow and respect what they find there, nothing more, nothing less.



[Edited 12/3/19 8:45am]

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #9 posted 12/03/19 8:47am

LoveGalore

leadline said:

LoveGalore said:

I think the granular issue is that there are SOME songs where the estate allowed a heavy amount of reverb unnecessarily - great examples are Jungle Love and Sex Shooter.

.

Once the person doing the mixing confirmed the reverb was a modern production choice and not necessarily reflected in the demo reels, people had a reason to be upset. Now there's a name and face attached to their bugbear which may or may not be related to them still getting over Prince's death. There's gotta be something or someone to take out the anger/frustration on.

.

I do think the reverb on the above mentioned tracks is a LITTLE distracting because it isn't anywhere to be found on any of the demos or released versions of those songs. Jungle Love does not sound like it was recorded in a church hall and Sex Shooter doesn't even need the crazy echo.

.

Of course, Prince also did this shit to his songs and ruined them accordingly sometimes. Check out Crucial for a wonderful example of Prince drenching his vocals in reverb and destroying a classic.

.

Then you have tracks like The Ladder, Sometimes It Snows In April, and Little Red Corvette that are tastefully produced and have an amount of reverb (chosen by Prince i imagine) that emboldens the song rather than pulverizes it.



Very well said LoveGalore, this represents fairly all of my frustrations in regards to this topic.

Jungle Love and Sex Shooter are indeed prime examples of this, and it was very unnecessary and distracting. Jungle Love vocals sounding like they are in a church makes it sound like someone is doing karaoke over an instrumental version, it just dissassociates his vocals from the track itself.

Two historical examples we do have of whether these demos with no reverb would have had reverb on them when released and/or completed is the Crystal Ball and The Vault : Old Friends 4 Sale releases. I can't think of anything on either of these where the vocals were altered from the demos we had prior, so I think at least from that perspective, it would be safe argument to say these songs on Originals and 1999 SD would 'not' have had this reverb added. Can anyone here imagine Jungle Love type reverb on Last Heart vocals? I don't think anyone would even consider that a possibility or a good idea.

It is almost as if these engineers are trying to add their own signature to Prince's music.....there is a time and place for everything, and curating Prince's music is definitely not the place for this. They have example after example in the vault of how is vocals were laid out, all they need to do is follow and respect what they find there, nothing more, nothing less.



[Edited 12/3/19 8:45am]

The one example we do have of Prince adding very very very wet reverb to a vocal (which conflicts with what we had as bootlegs) is Crucial. There was a boatload of outrage when this song was released in its current state given, as you astutely put, it disassociates the vocal from the song. Funnily enough, Crucial sounds much like Jungle Love on Originals in that respect. Church karaoke songs!

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Reply #10 posted 12/03/19 9:01am

yzman

I am recording engineer and I work on mixes daily especally with 2" tape. It is very common that effects are printed on separate tracks along side the other tracks as well as mixdown tracks of a final mix.

It is possible that the heavy reverb was already present and they just made the decision to keep it as Prince last recorded it.

I did cringe when I heard some of over-processing but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that there was a logical reason because otherwise it's very amateurish.

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Reply #11 posted 12/03/19 9:07am

LoveGalore

yzman said:

I am recording engineer and I work on mixes daily especally with 2" tape. It is very common that effects are printed on separate tracks along side the other tracks as well as mixdown tracks of a final mix.

It is possible that the heavy reverb was already present and they just made the decision to keep it as Prince last recorded it.

I did cringe when I heard some of over-processing but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that there was a logical reason because otherwise it's very amateurish.

https://www.mixonline.com...niko-bolas

“I know most of the original engineers,” Niko Bolas explains. “The first thing I did was call David Leonard, Susan Rogers and Peggy McCreary. I asked all three of them, ‘What did you do? What do I do, and how can I honor this?’ They all told me what equipment they had in the control room at the time and what was going on. The greatest thing for me was when Peggy McCreary sat down and listened to one of my mixes. She said, ‘It’s a great mix, but it’s not what he would like. You have to sing the words and dance to it, and that’s all he would want.’ Once I reframed my brain around that, it was actually really easy to do, because everything’s recorded so well. It was already there.”

.

One might interpret this a lot of different ways. But how they understood that Jungle Love required that amount of reverb is beyond me. I cannot truly imagine Susan Rogers giving the thumbs up to it.

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Reply #12 posted 12/03/19 10:03am

leadline

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LoveGalore said:

yzman said:

I am recording engineer and I work on mixes daily especally with 2" tape. It is very common that effects are printed on separate tracks along side the other tracks as well as mixdown tracks of a final mix.

It is possible that the heavy reverb was already present and they just made the decision to keep it as Prince last recorded it.

I did cringe when I heard some of over-processing but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that there was a logical reason because otherwise it's very amateurish.

https://www.mixonline.com...niko-bolas

“I know most of the original engineers,” Niko Bolas explains. “The first thing I did was call David Leonard, Susan Rogers and Peggy McCreary. I asked all three of them, ‘What did you do? What do I do, and how can I honor this?’ They all told me what equipment they had in the control room at the time and what was going on. The greatest thing for me was when Peggy McCreary sat down and listened to one of my mixes. She said, ‘It’s a great mix, but it’s not what he would like. You have to sing the words and dance to it, and that’s all he would want.’ Once I reframed my brain around that, it was actually really easy to do, because everything’s recorded so well. It was already there.”

.

One might interpret this a lot of different ways. But how they understood that Jungle Love required that amount of reverb is beyond me. I cannot truly imagine Susan Rogers giving the thumbs up to it.


One thing that cannot be misinterpreted is his the violet reality interview he did where he talks about how he has a phd in reverb, and added this reverb to many of Prince's songs/vocals where there was none before. He went on further to explain why he did this, but I don't remember offhand what that reason was.

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #13 posted 12/03/19 10:08am

leadline

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LoveGalore said:

leadline said:



Very well said LoveGalore, this represents fairly all of my frustrations in regards to this topic.

Jungle Love and Sex Shooter are indeed prime examples of this, and it was very unnecessary and distracting. Jungle Love vocals sounding like they are in a church makes it sound like someone is doing karaoke over an instrumental version, it just dissassociates his vocals from the track itself.

Two historical examples we do have of whether these demos with no reverb would have had reverb on them when released and/or completed is the Crystal Ball and The Vault : Old Friends 4 Sale releases. I can't think of anything on either of these where the vocals were altered from the demos we had prior, so I think at least from that perspective, it would be safe argument to say these songs on Originals and 1999 SD would 'not' have had this reverb added. Can anyone here imagine Jungle Love type reverb on Last Heart vocals? I don't think anyone would even consider that a possibility or a good idea.

It is almost as if these engineers are trying to add their own signature to Prince's music.....there is a time and place for everything, and curating Prince's music is definitely not the place for this. They have example after example in the vault of how is vocals were laid out, all they need to do is follow and respect what they find there, nothing more, nothing less.



[Edited 12/3/19 8:45am]

The one example we do have of Prince adding very very very wet reverb to a vocal (which conflicts with what we had as bootlegs) is Crucial. There was a boatload of outrage when this song was released in its current state given, as you astutely put, it disassociates the vocal from the song. Funnily enough, Crucial sounds much like Jungle Love on Originals in that respect. Church karaoke songs!


I wonder though if he added this, or, if it was just a different version that we were aware of. Also, I do recall a lot of reverb on the demos circulating, which would only be exacerbated and sound much heavier to the ears on a pristine version.

Honestly though, I hear just as much reverb on this original Crucial here below as I do on the Crystal Ball release.

https://www.youtube.com/w...kYkppIX_RQ

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #14 posted 12/03/19 10:18am

LoveGalore

leadline said:

LoveGalore said:

The one example we do have of Prince adding very very very wet reverb to a vocal (which conflicts with what we had as bootlegs) is Crucial. There was a boatload of outrage when this song was released in its current state given, as you astutely put, it disassociates the vocal from the song. Funnily enough, Crucial sounds much like Jungle Love on Originals in that respect. Church karaoke songs!


I wonder though if he added this, or, if it was just a different version that we were aware of. Also, I do recall a lot of reverb on the demos circulating, which would only be exacerbated and sound much heavier to the ears on a pristine version.

Honestly though, I hear just as much reverb on this original Crucial here below as I do on the Crystal Ball release.

https://www.youtube.com/w...kYkppIX_RQ

I've actually never heard that version in such clarity, so that's quite interesting. Wish it was the full version.

.

https://www.youtube.com/w...aXIwbfIyBk - Here's Crystal Ball's version to compare.

.

You may be right - better audio fidelity could've revealed that what ears once perceived as tape hiss/distortion/mud was actually... reverb, lol.

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Reply #15 posted 12/03/19 12:24pm

lavendardrumma
chine

yzman said:

It is possible that the heavy reverb was already present and they just made the decision to keep it as Prince last recorded it.

Possible. But it sounds like plug-in reverb not 80's era reverb, doesn't it? Also, listening to a lot of other recent remasters on Tidal, the reverb seems to be a signature they're all adding for various reasons. Like they intentionally need it to sound a little different so they hit people over the head with different mix (or in this case, maybe added filtering).

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Reply #16 posted 12/05/19 7:05am

Holmes

I'm a producer and have been studying Prince's music for many years. I think there's been too much reverb applied on the new mixes in general and that it's not in keeping with Prince's production aesthetic. It's far too high in the mix, bass-heavy (could have had some low-end rolled-off) and has an overly long decay-time.

Of course Prince used reverb in his music but usually had it relatively low in the mix, and on funk or up-tempo tracks he tended to keep things quite dry, with some elements completely dry. I feel that much of 'Originals' is rendered unlistenable due to wildly inappropriate reverb. On the new previously un-released 1999 tracks they seem to have toned things down, but there are still instances of loud reverb and Prince's voice having a chorus-like effect on it. An engineer friend commented that he didn't think it sounded like Prince's voice on a few tracks because of the processing that was applied.

Otherwise, the balance levels are quite good, and the instrument tracks sound good and clear.

[Edited 12/8/19 8:39am]

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Reply #17 posted 12/05/19 7:41am

leadline

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Holmes said:

I'm a producer and have been studying Prince's music for many years. I think there's been too much reverb applied on the new mixes in general and that it's not in keeping with Prince's production aesthetic. It's far too high in the mix, bass-heavy (could have had some low-end rolled-off) and has an overly long decay-time.

Of course Prince used reverb in his music but usually had it relatively low in the mix, and on funk or dance tracks he tended to keep things quite dry, with some elements completely dry. I feel that much of 'Originals' is rendered unlistenable due to wildly inappropriate reverb. On the new previously un-released 1999 tracks they seem to have toned things down, but there are still instances of loud reverb and Prince's voice having a chorus-like effect on it. An engineer friend commented that he didn't think it sounded like Prince's voice on a few tracks because of the processing that was applied.

Otherwise, the balance levels are quite good, and the instrument tracks sound good and clear.



Yep, all very true, the estate really needs to take note on this, because there really is no historical example that justifies the drowning of his music in reverb. Prince did use reverb, but he used it sparingly and only when necessary. Crucial is an example of this, the reverb fit very well. It's very close to a ballad, and makes sense, Damn U is another example, but does anyone out there have any historical examples of a song like Jungle Love, Sex Shooter or The Glamorous Life containing heavy reverb/chorus? I can't think of any, but if there are, I would think they are far and few between.

I will say it again, this technique they are using on his music very much disassociates his vocals from the music itself, there is absolutely no justification for a church type chorus effect to be on fast songs or funk songs, it is counterintuitive.

I really hope the estate sees this stuff and takes note, there are many people talking about this. Prince's music, his process, his technique, are just not being respected.

The sad part is, getting right should have been easy, they have access to thousands of released and unreleased songs showing exactly how Prince did things. Prince did all the hard work for them, the fact we are even talking about this is honestly the last thing I would have ever expected to be debating when it came to his unreleased music.

I love Originals and 1999 SD, the estate did a great job on these sets when it comes to song choice and overall asthetics, but the songs themselves will likely only be getting one release, there is only one shot to get these things right, and better care and thought really needs to be taken on future releases imo. I hope they get it right.




[Edited 12/5/19 8:48am]

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
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Reply #18 posted 12/05/19 8:16am

OperatingTheta
n

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That type of reverb is not on any existing official Prince releases. The reverb on 'If It'll Make U Happy' is an exception and not a good one. All Bolas has to do is actually LISTEN to Prince's existing work and vocal production and follow accordingly. It shouldn't be necessary for him to contact ex-engineers when so much of Prince's music as produced and approved by Prince is out there. In fact, it's pretty damn pathetic.

A shame as generally, the last two releases (Originals, 1999 Super-Deluxe) have been high quality and right in so many ways, but the vocal production and mix on some of the songs is obviously so very wrong.

*
[Edited 12/5/19 8:17am]
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Reply #19 posted 12/05/19 3:12pm

jfenster

at least the 'leggers have something they can sell now...THEIR originals

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Reply #20 posted 12/05/19 3:23pm

Wolfie87

Uhhhm. In layman's terms; What is specifically "reverb"? And what examples can you give me?
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Reply #21 posted 12/05/19 3:33pm

rdhull

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Wolfie87 said:

Uhhhm. In layman's terms; What is specifically "reverb"? And what examples can you give me?

echo

c'mon baby, where's ya guts?
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Reply #22 posted 12/06/19 12:43am

lavendardrumma
chine

Wolfie87 said:

Uhhhm. In layman's terms; What is specifically "reverb"? And what examples can you give me?

Reverb stands for reverberation. If you clap your hands in the shower, there's some reverberation. If you go to a big room, it sounds different than a small room. There are ways to emulate that effect. It can be used with delays and that kind of thing. One classic example is David Bowie's "Heros", which is said to have been created by literally setting up a daisy chain of multiple microphones placed 15 feet from him. I think the song Purple Rain is a good example of one with reverb, especially at the "Honey, I know, I know" section. Certain types of reverb are associated with certain musical eras, like 80's drums for example.

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Reply #23 posted 12/07/19 3:16am

novabrkr

yzman said:

I am recording engineer and I work on mixes daily especally with 2" tape. It is very common that effects are printed on separate tracks along side the other tracks as well as mixdown tracks of a final mix.

It is possible that the heavy reverb was already present and they just made the decision to keep it as Prince last recorded it.

I did cringe when I heard some of over-processing but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that there was a logical reason because otherwise it's very amateurish.



Yeah, I've been thinking about this too.


If the reverb FX for the vocals has been attached to a send and has been printed on a track of its own, it'd have to be recorded at loud enough levels to avoid hiss and in order ensure the tails would sound good enough. For someone that would visit the mixes years later, it wouldn't be so obvious at all how loud the tails should be in the mix. For Prince or his engineers from the time, it would have been obvious that they'd be placed low in the mix, so not even notes for the mixes would be needed. Prince favoured the mixes for his funk (or "funk-based") tracks done pretty much the same way throughout the years.




Holmes said:

I'm a producer and have been studying Prince's music for many years. I think there's been too much reverb applied on the new mixes in general and that it's not in keeping with Prince's production aesthetic. It's far too high in the mix, bass-heavy (could have had some low-end rolled-off) and has an overly long decay-time.

Of course Prince used reverb in his music but usually had it relatively low in the mix, and on funk or dance tracks he tended to keep things quite dry, with some elements completely dry.

[...]

Otherwise, the balance levels are quite good, and the instrument tracks sound good and clear.


Excellent observations. You get extra points for noting the bass-heaviness wink



OperatingThetan said:

That type of reverb is not on any existing official Prince releases. The reverb on 'If It'll Make U Happy' is an exception and not a good one. All Bolas has to do is actually LISTEN to Prince's existing work and vocal production and follow accordingly. It shouldn't be necessary for him to contact ex-engineers when so much of Prince's music as produced and approved by Prince is out there. In fact, it's pretty damn pathetic. A shame as generally, the last two releases (Originals, 1999 Super-Deluxe) have been high quality and right in so many ways, but the vocal production and mix on some of the songs is obviously so very wrong. * [Edited 12/5/19 8:17am]


The effect on "If It'll Make U Happy" is more of a "slapback echo", or "tape delay", type of a thing, which doesn't bother me personally. It fits the pop-reggae style of the song.

Yeah, sure. If Prince didn't use such an effect on the track originally, it really shouldn't be there on the released version either. I understand that point.

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Reply #24 posted 12/07/19 11:07am

jfenster

but i thought the orignal intent was to NOT change what was existing in the vault?????

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Reply #25 posted 12/07/19 3:23pm

bonatoc

avatar

rdhull said:

Wolfie87 said:

Uhhhm. In layman's terms; What is specifically "reverb"? And what examples can you give me?

echo


Nope. That would be "Delay".

Here's Borat third degree cousin to explain:

https://www.youtube.com/w...CUUu96PYjo

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #26 posted 12/09/19 12:41am

novabrkr

bonatoc said:

rdhull said:

echo


Nope. That would be "Delay".

Here's Borat third degree cousin to explain:

https://www.youtube.com/w...CUUu96PYjo

I think "echo" puts it rather well in layman's terms.

Referring to just delay effects with the term "echo" seems to be a fairly arbitrary decision by musicians and gear manufacturers. If you clap your hands in a hallway, the echo you get sounds hardly like the clean, isolated repeats of a delay effect.

Most of the reverb units are really just fast delays coupled together anyway. =/

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Reply #27 posted 12/09/19 8:05am

LoveGalore

novabrkr said:



bonatoc said:




rdhull said:



echo




Nope. That would be "Delay".

Here's Borat third degree cousin to explain:

https://www.youtube.com/w...CUUu96PYjo




I think "echo" puts it rather well in layman's terms.



Referring to just delay effects with the term "echo" seems to be a fairly arbitrary decision by musicians and gear manufacturers. If you clap your hands in a hallway, the echo you get sounds hardly like the clean, isolated repeats of a delay effect.



Most of the reverb units are really just fast delays coupled together anyway. =/




This is all more or less true. Reverb and echo are the same concept - sound reflected off a surface. The difference is that with reverb, the echo is perceived (essentially) immediately whereas echo travels a farther distance and the reflected sound is... Delayed. :)

Ask someone to replicate the sound of an echo verbally and they'll say, "Echo, echo, echo, echo" in a decrescendo of sorts. Ask someone to replicate a reverb and, well, they probably couldn't because our vocal chords can't mimic that but it'd basically be something like, "ECHOOO." lol
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