Hope we get to hear more and more accoustic versions.....

Oh nice! thank you!

Kares said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

Ah, this is super cool!

I really like the scatting....(is this the right english word?)

LoveGalore said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

....but tunings/keys aren't subjective, you could literally run any free tuning program to tell you if something is sharp or flat. Whether it ultimately sounds "fine" or not isn't even the question or debate.... There's literally a correct or incorrect answer.

Note that all I said is that it sounds fine to my ears. That part is the definition of subjective.

But it's really not subjective if the discussion is centered around pitch and tape speed, which it was. Now you're trying to reframe your response as a purely isolated comment on the song itself, but that's just not what the previous quote-box back-and-forth denotes.

WhisperingDandelions said:

The youtube video is live.

It's being released because it's to celebrate the October 19, 1979 release of his self-titled second album.

In honor of the 40th anniversary of Prince’s second album, Prince—which was released on October 19, 1979—The Prince Estate and Warner Records are pleased to announce the surprise release of a previously unheard, solo acoustic demo recording of the Grammy-winning Prince track “I Feel for You,” available on streaming services and as a limited-run 7” vinyl single.

The new two-track 7" includes the acoustic demo of “I Feel for You” on the A-side and the original studio recording on the B-side, pressed on commemorative purple vinyl.

The special, stripped-down demo recording captures a 20-year-old Prince in a raw, intimate moment, and begins with the sound of the artist pressing the record button on a cassette tape recorder and picking up an acoustic guitar. The recording was created in the winter of 1978-1979, around the time Prince was preparing to make his solo debut at the Capri Theater in North Minneapolis, and it was recently rediscovered on one of the countless cassette tapes stored in his legendary vault.

The fully produced, studio recording of “I Feel For You” was included on Prince’s second album, Prince. It would become a hit a few years later, when it was covered by Chaka Khan and released as the title track of her solo album, I Feel for You, in 1984. Her version, which featured a cameo by the rapper Melle Mel, became a Top 10 hit on the Billboard Hot 100 and earned two Grammys—including a Grammy Award for Best R&B Song that honored Prince’s contributions as songwriter.

https://store.prince.com/product/5QLPPR048

the demo sounds a lot fresher than the original release... the disco influence make the original sound dated...

Here's the Pre-order Link for the limited edition 7 inch:


https://store.prince.com/product/5QLPPR048

jaawwnn said:

Kares said:

.
I talked to Michael Howe about this when P&AM83 came out. He didn't notice that its speed (and pitch) is off. His intention was to leave the audio untouched, without any manipulation that could've been performed to enhance the quality. That is fine, an acceptable approach – however, I pointed out that transferring the cassette using a slightly different speed machine than the one it was recorded with IS manipulation as what we end up with is NOT how Prince played/sang it.
.

For home demos, Prince obviously used cheap, consumer cassette recorders that weren't calibrated properly (most consumer decks were running a bit faster or slower than normal), so when he taped something with a machine that was running slower and today we play that cassette back on a properly calibrated machine, we are speeding it up. This kind of issue should ALWAYS be corrected, not only because it's a very easy fix without any sideeffects, but also because that's how the music sounded at the time of recording it.
.
Apparently though, they still don't agree with this thus we are getting releases with the wrong tempo and pitch...
.

I don't doubt your maths but are you sure a 19 year old Prince wasn't just tuning by ear? Going slightly sharp or flat happens all the time, i can name entire albums that were recorded at "incorrect" pitches because the band were just tuning to themselves by ear. I take your point that prince was just using a cheap cassette deck and the problems that arise from that but equally he wasnt too worried about his guitar being perfectly tuned to concert pitch for a quick demo run through. Hell, both could be true at the same time!

.

I can't rule it out with 100% certainty of course, but I think it's highly unlikely that Prince tuned his guitar wrong (especially this wrong, as 40-50 cents is almost midway between two semitones). Prince at 19-20 was already a professional musician with several years of experience, not some amateur kid. He had several different instruments, including keyboards and synths, and the keys were certainly tuned to concert pitch. He was regularly jumping from one instrument to another, regularly recording, so his guitars HAD to be tuned to match the keyboards.
.

Kares said:

jaawwnn said:

Kares said:

.

I can't rule it out with 100% certainty of course, but I think it's highly unlikely that Prince tuned his guitar wrong (especially this wrong, as 40-50 cents is almost midway between two semitones). Prince at 19-20 was already a professional musician with several years of experience, not some amateur kid. He had several different instruments, including keyboards and synths, and the keys were certainly tuned to concert pitch. He was regularly jumping from one instrument to another, regularly recording, so his guitars HAD to be tuned to match the keyboards.
.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, yours is probably more plausible, I'm just wondering if there's any way of knowing for sure. Thanks for the response. [Edited 10/18/19 0:32am]

.
If we disregard all the reasoning above, the only way to decide is to compare the two versions and trying to tell which one will give you a more natural sounding human voice (and it's harder with falsetto vocals).
.
In case of professional studio tapes: they should contain reference tone(s) (at least a 1kHz sine wave) so when they are played back on another machine, the speed can be calibrated to match the correct speed of the recording.
But knowing how fast Prince worked, I'm not sure if his engineers/technicians always had the time to follow industry standards in this regard so most probably there are a lot of master tapes without reference tones in is vault.
.

Kares said:

toejam said:

.

Excellent post, Kares. This shouldn't be an issue - it is an easy fix. But given this is a demo, it's also possible that Prince simply tuned his guitar on the fly without a reference note, and as such did it a little sharp by accident. Who knows. I suspect you're right, though.

.
In the case of P&AM83 we can be sure that his piano wasn't tuned to A=445, as it sounds like on the release. Also, I suspect Prince had perfect pitch, and if I'm right, he didn't even need a reference for tuning. But even if he didn't have perfect pitch, I don't think he would've tuned the guitar THIS wrong. 40-50 cents difference is VERY obvious to anyone with relatively good ears – and speeding up (or slowing down) a vocal recording by this much also makes the human voice sound a little unnatural.
.
And not all the songs are pitch-correct on Originals either, so I'm afraid the subject of the matter is definitely a recurring oversight on Howe's part.
.

[Edited 10/17/19 16:13pm]

Quick note on perfect pitch: he did not. I also suspected it, but ran across an interview somewhere in which he said himself he didn't. PLUS, there are couple places I've run across him asking about a key (when sitting in, or joining a jam). He wouldn't have to do that if he had perfect pitch.

And I find it pretty shocking that they wouldn't correct for pitch. Anyone who's ever worked with reel to reel at all (also as an actual trained archivist, not an industry guy who calls himself one in articles on the digitization), you start the tape with a 1 kHz tone for calibration purposes. The fact that this guy isn't aware of how much analog machines vary concerns me that he's the one in charge of digitization.

That said, shifting pitch digitally creates artifacts. If they were audible, that would be a good reason not to do so. But it would also be a reason to state that in liner notes.

Kares - just saw your last post - wasn't implying you didn't know this about 1k. I've had a piece on the Vault and recording technologies on the back burner, so when I pull it back out, I'll have to ask some of the engineers about how meticulous they were when swapping reels. But he did stuff on his own (like the cassettes), so all bets are off, there.

[Edited 10/18/19 1:34am]

LittleProfessor said:

Kares said:

.
In the case of P&AM83 we can be sure that his piano wasn't tuned to A=445, as it sounds like on the release. Also, I suspect Prince had perfect pitch, and if I'm right, he didn't even need a reference for tuning. But even if he didn't have perfect pitch, I don't think he would've tuned the guitar THIS wrong. 40-50 cents difference is VERY obvious to anyone with relatively good ears – and speeding up (or slowing down) a vocal recording by this much also makes the human voice sound a little unnatural.
.
And not all the songs are pitch-correct on Originals either, so I'm afraid the subject of the matter is definitely a recurring oversight on Howe's part.
.

[Edited 10/17/19 16:13pm]

Quick note on perfect pitch: he did not. I also suspected it, but ran across an interview somewhere in which he said himself he didn't. PLUS, there are couple places I've run across him asking about a key (when sitting in, or joining a jam). He wouldn't have to do that if he had perfect pitch.

And I find it pretty shocking that they wouldn't correct for pitch. If you've ever worked with reel to reel at all (also as an actual trained archivist, not an industry guy who calls himself one), you start the tape with a 1 kHz tone for calibration purposes. The fact that this guy isn't aware of how much analog machines vary concerns me that he's the one in charge of these releases. That said, shifting pitch digitally creates artifacts. If they were audible, that would be a good reason not to do so. But it would also be a reason to state that in liner notes.

Again we see there's more knowledge here then with the bozo's handeling the recordings.

Wow, great little track!! Hope there are more of such treasures in the vault.
.

And please, stop whining about the "tape speed". Just enjoy this piece of art.... (who knows, maybe Prince's guitar was just not tuned exactly to 440)

.

Kares said:

jaawwnn said:

Kares said: Yeah, don't get me wrong, yours is probably more plausible, I'm just wondering if there's any way of knowing for sure. Thanks for the response. [Edited 10/18/19 0:32am]

.
If we disregard all the reasoning above, the only way to decide is to compare the two versions and trying to tell which one will give you a more natural sounding human voice (and it's harder with falsetto vocals).
.
In case of professional studio tapes: they should contain reference tone(s) (at least a 1kHz sine wave) so when they are played back on another machine, the speed can be calibrated to match the correct speed of the recording.
But knowing how fast Prince worked, I'm not sure if his engineers/technicians always had the time to follow industry standards in this regard so most probably there are a lot of master tapes without reference tones in is vault.
.

You're talking about master tapes but isn't this demo something Prince just recorded straight onto a standard consumer audio casette, C90 or similar? Feels wrong to be talking about professional studio tapes when that isn't relevant to this release.

Do we know where this was recorded? I assume without any engineers or technicians present? Maybe Prince just had a guitar handy, picked it up and started strumming his idea in his bedroom? That being the case, this was never intended for anyone to hear, let alone to be released. Isn't it just an idea on a 'notepad' for him to refer back to later in the studio. In which case, there's no reason for him to have worried about tuning his guitar if all he wanted to do was get his idea down.

When you're working with consumer grade tapes there's always margin for error. I know that there's no doubt on the technically correct speed when matching it to the released studio version, but that doesn't mean that Prince had to record his original idea in the same key.

Anyway, for me and my inexact ear this is a great release. I'm very happy to hear this and glad the estate have decided to release it. Let's hope we get more regular surprise releases of this nature.

LittleProfessor said:

Kares said:

.
In the case of P&AM83 we can be sure that his piano wasn't tuned to A=445, as it sounds like on the release. Also, I suspect Prince had perfect pitch, and if I'm right, he didn't even need a reference for tuning. But even if he didn't have perfect pitch, I don't think he would've tuned the guitar THIS wrong. 40-50 cents difference is VERY obvious to anyone with relatively good ears – and speeding up (or slowing down) a vocal recording by this much also makes the human voice sound a little unnatural.
.
And not all the songs are pitch-correct on Originals either, so I'm afraid the subject of the matter is definitely a recurring oversight on Howe's part.
.

[Edited 10/17/19 16:13pm]

Quick note on perfect pitch: he did not. I also suspected it, but ran across an interview somewhere in which he said himself he didn't. PLUS, there are couple places I've run across him asking about a key (when sitting in, or joining a jam). He wouldn't have to do that if he had perfect pitch.

And I find it pretty shocking that they wouldn't correct for pitch. Anyone who's ever worked with reel to reel at all (also as an actual trained archivist, not an industry guy who calls himself one in articles on the digitization), you start the tape with a 1 kHz tone for calibration purposes. The fact that this guy isn't aware of how much analog machines vary concerns me that he's the one in charge of digitization.

That said, shifting pitch digitally creates artifacts. If they were audible, that would be a good reason not to do so. But it would also be a reason to state that in liner notes.

Kares - just saw your last post - wasn't implying you didn't know this about 1k. I've had a piece on the Vault and recording technologies on the back burner, so when I pull it back out, I'll have to ask some of the engineers about how meticulous they were when swapping reels. But he did stuff on his own (like the cassettes), so all bets are off, there.

[Edited 10/18/19 1:34am]

.
Thanks for the clarification about him not having perfect pitch, I suspected he did but I wasn't sure. I'm sure he had relative pitch though.
.
And you're right, it's mindboggling to see people in charge of archiving who don't care about correct tape speed.
.
In regards to mastertapes having reference tones: yes, they should, but thinking about how fast Prince forced his engineers to work, I suspect that a lot of his mastertapes start with the sound of his fingers tapping impatiently, instead of the 1kHz tone...
.
BTW: the process of correcting speed (pitch+tempo together) digitally doesn't have audible side-effects, it's only when you're changing either pitch or tempo independently of the other you'll end up corrupting the sound quality.
.

[Edited 10/18/19 2:48am]

TheEnglishGent said:

Kares said:

.
If we disregard all the reasoning above, the only way to decide is to compare the two versions and trying to tell which one will give you a more natural sounding human voice (and it's harder with falsetto vocals).
.
In case of professional studio tapes: they should contain reference tone(s) (at least a 1kHz sine wave) so when they are played back on another machine, the speed can be calibrated to match the correct speed of the recording.
But knowing how fast Prince worked, I'm not sure if his engineers/technicians always had the time to follow industry standards in this regard so most probably there are a lot of master tapes without reference tones in is vault.
.

You're talking about master tapes but isn't this demo something Prince just recorded straight onto a standard consumer audio casette, C90 or similar? Feels wrong to be talking about professional studio tapes when that isn't relevant to this release.

.
I was talking about his cassette recorder all along, and yes, of course this is a cassette recording.
.
I only added 1 paragraph about studio tapes to explain that they are easier to calibrate for the proper playback speed with the aid of the reference tones they usually have.

jaawwnn said:

Kares said:

.

I can't rule it out with 100% certainty of course, but I think it's highly unlikely that Prince tuned his guitar wrong (especially this wrong, as 40-50 cents is almost midway between two semitones). Prince at 19-20 was already a professional musician with several years of experience, not some amateur kid. He had several different instruments, including keyboards and synths, and the keys were certainly tuned to concert pitch. He was regularly jumping from one instrument to another, regularly recording, so his guitars HAD to be tuned to match the keyboards.
.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, yours is probably more plausible, I'm just wondering if there's any way of knowing for sure. Thanks for the response. [Edited 10/18/19 0:32am]

fuck me!...seriously? it's a friggin demo, probably done on the spot 'in the moment'...do you play guitar?...I do...i jam...in the moment when inspiration strikes...perfect tuning comes later.

I despair!!

back on point, a fantastic & lovely surprise from the estate. Look forward to more.

It is a digital download and a single purple 7''.

https://www.prince.com/ar...el-for-you

No deluxe edition