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Reply #30 posted 09/29/19 7:40pm

Strive

violetcrush said:

Although, I find it doubtful that Mayte ever tried to be "bold"with Prince, or attempted to direct his lifestyle. She seemed to me to always follow him. I think he called the shots there. He certainly would not have needed a religious affiliation to keep her in line. Also, I believe by the time he was delving deeper into the JW faith he had Mayte living in Spain while he was spending much of his time in MN. Then he moved on to Manuela. I think, if anything, it was Mayte refusing to adapt to the JW faith which led to the end of that relationship. She would not convert, so she was out - aka banished confused

She kind of covered it in her book.



He viewed the lost of his son as punishment from God for his past behavior (despite James 1:13), (probably) blamed her behavior for the subsequent miscarriages and her general unwillingness to go in any direction he wanted her to go in ended up driving them apart.



"He went off on a long, alarming rant that lasted late into the night. Hour after hour, as I cried and argued and tried to reason with him, he quoted scripture and dragged me through the minutia of the Biblical teachings he’d been wallowing in. He wanted us to declare our marriage annulled and then renew our vows on our anniversary, February 14. He wanted us to be baptized the same day. He wanted me to sign a paper that said I agreed to all this, that our vows were annulled, and we were free from the chains of that contract. [...] And so on and so on, hour after hour. The words coming out of his mouth seemed coached and contrived. I don’t know if he believed it any more than I did, but he bullied me until four o’clock in the morning. I was desperate to lie down and even more desperate to make him shut up and lie down with me. Eyes burning, ears ringing, I let him put the pen in my hand. Defeated, numb with weariness, I scribbled my name on the paper."


Even after that incident, it seemed like he was trying to drag her to the other side of the equation by taking her to Le Crazy Horse in Paris or trying getting her to wear the belly dancer outfit to the MTV Video Music Awards. She didn't go with that direction either.


"It crossed my mind to tell him what I thought of his corny little braids with blue ribbons, but I wanted to make peace and please him. As a compromise, I wore the belly dancing getup to the after parties, but I was horribly uncomfortable, and when we got back to the hotel, we started fighting about whether he would come to Spain with me and what was going on with Manuela and how angry I was to be locked out of my own life. He was feeling guilty and defensive and kept coming back with all this claptrap about me not being an obedient wife, refusing to wear the belly dancing getup on the red carpet, refusing to drink the study group Kool-Aid. Finally, I pressed my hands against my face and screamed. “What is it going to take to get through to you?” I picked up a wine bottle and hurled it against the wall. It smashed and dribbled, and it did surprise him, but the feeling wasn’t nearly as satisfying as I had hoped."




[Edited 9/29/19 19:43pm]

no yesterday or tomorrow, no better remedy for sorrow
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Reply #31 posted 09/29/19 7:58pm

PeggyO

Strive said:

violetcrush said:

Although, I find it doubtful that Mayte ever tried to be "bold"with Prince, or attempted to direct his lifestyle. She seemed to me to always follow him. I think he called the shots there. He certainly would not have needed a religious affiliation to keep her in line. Also, I believe by the time he was delving deeper into the JW faith he had Mayte living in Spain while he was spending much of his time in MN. Then he moved on to Manuela. I think, if anything, it was Mayte refusing to adapt to the JW faith which led to the end of that relationship. She would not convert, so she was out - aka banished confused

She kind of covered it in her book.



He viewed the lost of his son as punishment from God for his past behavior (despite James 1:13), (probably) blamed her behavior for the subsequent miscarriages and her general unwillingness to go in any direction he wanted her to go in ended up driving them apart.



"He went off on a long, alarming rant that lasted late into the night. Hour after hour, as I cried and argued and tried to reason with him, he quoted scripture and dragged me through the minutia of the Biblical teachings he’d been wallowing in. He wanted us to declare our marriage annulled and then renew our vows on our anniversary, February 14. He wanted us to be baptized the same day. He wanted me to sign a paper that said I agreed to all this, that our vows were annulled, and we were free from the chains of that contract. [...] And so on and so on, hour after hour. The words coming out of his mouth seemed coached and contrived. I don’t know if he believed it any more than I did, but he bullied me until four o’clock in the morning. I was desperate to lie down and even more desperate to make him shut up and lie down with me. Eyes burning, ears ringing, I let him put the pen in my hand. Defeated, numb with weariness, I scribbled my name on the paper."


Even after that incident, it seemed like he was trying to drag her to the other side of the equation by taking her to Le Crazy Horse in Paris or trying getting her to wear the belly dancer outfit to the MTV Video Music Awards. She didn't go with that direction either.


"It crossed my mind to tell him what I thought of his corny little braids with blue ribbons, but I wanted to make peace and please him. As a compromise, I wore the belly dancing getup to the after parties, but I was horribly uncomfortable, and when we got back to the hotel, we started fighting about whether he would come to Spain with me and what was going on with Manuela and how angry I was to be locked out of my own life. He was feeling guilty and defensive and kept coming back with all this claptrap about me not being an obedient wife, refusing to wear the belly dancing getup on the red carpet, refusing to drink the study group Kool-Aid. Finally, I pressed my hands against my face and screamed. “What is it going to take to get through to you?” I picked up a wine bottle and hurled it against the wall. It smashed and dribbled, and it did surprise him, but the feeling wasn’t nearly as satisfying as I had hoped."




[Edited 9/29/19 19:43pm]

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Reply #32 posted 09/29/19 8:10pm

PeggyO

Strive said:

violetcrush said:

Although, I find it doubtful that Mayte ever tried to be "bold"with Prince, or attempted to direct his lifestyle. She seemed to me to always follow him. I think he called the shots there. He certainly would not have needed a religious affiliation to keep her in line. Also, I believe by the time he was delving deeper into the JW faith he had Mayte living in Spain while he was spending much of his time in MN. Then he moved on to Manuela. I think, if anything, it was Mayte refusing to adapt to the JW faith which led to the end of that relationship. She would not convert, so she was out - aka banished confused

She kind of covered it in her book.



He viewed the lost of his son as punishment from God for his past behavior (despite James 1:13), (probably) blamed her behavior for the subsequent miscarriages and her general unwillingness to go in any direction he wanted her to go in ended up driving them apart.



"He went off on a long, alarming rant that lasted late into the night. Hour after hour, as I cried and argued and tried to reason with him, he quoted scripture and dragged me through the minutia of the Biblical teachings he’d been wallowing in. He wanted us to declare our marriage annulled and then renew our vows on our anniversary, February 14. He wanted us to be baptized the same day. He wanted me to sign a paper that said I agreed to all this, that our vows were annulled, and we were free from the chains of that contract. [...] And so on and so on, hour after hour. The words coming out of his mouth seemed coached and contrived. I don’t know if he believed it any more than I did, but he bullied me until four o’clock in the morning. I was desperate to lie down and even more desperate to make him shut up and lie down with me. Eyes burning, ears ringing, I let him put the pen in my hand. Defeated, numb with weariness, I scribbled my name on the paper."


Even after that incident, it seemed like he was trying to drag her to the other side of the equation by taking her to Le Crazy Horse in Paris or trying getting her to wear the belly dancer outfit to the MTV Video Music Awards. She didn't go with that direction either.


"It crossed my mind to tell him what I thought of his corny little braids with blue ribbons, but I wanted to make peace and please him. As a compromise, I wore the belly dancing getup to the after parties, but I was horribly uncomfortable, and when we got back to the hotel, we started fighting about whether he would come to Spain with me and what was going on with Manuela and how angry I was to be locked out of my own life. He was feeling guilty and defensive and kept coming back with all this claptrap about me not being an obedient wife, refusing to wear the belly dancing getup on the red carpet, refusing to drink the study group Kool-Aid. Finally, I pressed my hands against my face and screamed. “What is it going to take to get through to you?” I picked up a wine bottle and hurled it against the wall. It smashed and dribbled, and it did surprise him, but the feeling wasn’t nearly as satisfying as I had hoped."




[Edited 9/29/19 19:43pm]

Though I read Mayte's book 3 or so years ago, I don't remember any of the above statements by Mayte?? I am on vacation and can't check but I don't remember Mayte stating that Prince went on an "hour-after-hour rant quoting scripture" or talking about Baptism etc. etc." Are these statements from her book, The Most Beautiful? I remember her talking more gently.

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Reply #33 posted 09/29/19 8:13pm

violetcrush

PeggyO said:



Strive said:




violetcrush said:



Although, I find it doubtful that Mayte ever tried to be "bold"with Prince, or attempted to direct his lifestyle. She seemed to me to always follow him. I think he called the shots there. He certainly would not have needed a religious affiliation to keep her in line. Also, I believe by the time he was delving deeper into the JW faith he had Mayte living in Spain while he was spending much of his time in MN. Then he moved on to Manuela. I think, if anything, it was Mayte refusing to adapt to the JW faith which led to the end of that relationship. She would not convert, so she was out - aka banished confused



She kind of covered it in her book.





He viewed the lost of his son as punishment from God for his past behavior (despite James 1:13), (probably) blamed her behavior for the subsequent miscarriages and her general unwillingness to go in any direction he wanted her to go in ended up driving them apart.





"He went off on a long, alarming rant that lasted late into the night. Hour after hour, as I cried and argued and tried to reason with him, he quoted scripture and dragged me through the minutia of the Biblical teachings he’d been wallowing in. He wanted us to declare our marriage annulled and then renew our vows on our anniversary, February 14. He wanted us to be baptized the same day. He wanted me to sign a paper that said I agreed to all this, that our vows were annulled, and we were free from the chains of that contract. [...] And so on and so on, hour after hour. The words coming out of his mouth seemed coached and contrived. I don’t know if he believed it any more than I did, but he bullied me until four o’clock in the morning. I was desperate to lie down and even more desperate to make him shut up and lie down with me. Eyes burning, ears ringing, I let him put the pen in my hand. Defeated, numb with weariness, I scribbled my name on the paper."




Even after that incident, it seemed like he was trying to drag her to the other side of the equation by taking her to Le Crazy Horse in Paris or trying getting her to wear the belly dancer outfit to the MTV Video Music Awards. She didn't go with that direction either.



"It crossed my mind to tell him what I thought of his corny little braids with blue ribbons, but I wanted to make peace and please him. As a compromise, I wore the belly dancing getup to the after parties, but I was horribly uncomfortable, and when we got back to the hotel, we started fighting about whether he would come to Spain with me and what was going on with Manuela and how angry I was to be locked out of my own life. He was feeling guilty and defensive and kept coming back with all this claptrap about me not being an obedient wife, refusing to wear the belly dancing getup on the red carpet, refusing to drink the study group Kool-Aid. Finally, I pressed my hands against my face and screamed. “What is it going to take to get through to you?” I picked up a wine bottle and hurled it against the wall. It smashed and dribbled, and it did surprise him, but the feeling wasn’t nearly as satisfying as I had hoped."






[Edited 9/29/19 19:43pm]




Seems he had his mind made up with regard to the JW faith by the time he finished touring in ‘97/‘98. I think Manuela was working at PP by ‘98, so by ‘99 (when he was wearing the braids) he had probably started something with her.
*
I just don’t think he ever stopped going after other women - married or not. I think Manuela experienced the same thing. She and Mayte became friends later. I would imagine they had similar experiences with regard to life with Prince.
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Reply #34 posted 09/29/19 9:27pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

PeggyO said:

Very thought-provoking article. Prince certainly lived his religious beliefs out-loud.

I watched Lovesexy (I believe) and he was a straight-up powerful preacher.


Thanks for reading it!

The Lovesexy Tour was still a more quasi-belief system. He rambled on a bit, but it never felt dogmatic. It was just Prince being cooky and weird as usual. 2000 onward was a noticeable difference in the "preaching", as it were.


This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #35 posted 09/29/19 9:56pm

Strive

PeggyO said:

Though I read Mayte's book 3 or so years ago, I don't remember any of the above statements by Mayte?? I am on vacation and can't check but I don't remember Mayte stating that Prince went on an "hour-after-hour rant quoting scripture" or talking about Baptism etc. etc." Are these statements from her book, The Most Beautiful? I remember her talking more gently.

Direct quotes from chapter 11 of The Most Beautiful.

violetcrush, I'll try to put together the time line of everything tomorrow. Mayte said that Manuela swore to her that nothing (sexual) happened until much later after her apperance. I think he was flirting with the idea of JW and Manuela but didn't pull the trigger until late 2000, early 2001.

TrivialPursuit, I know it seemed like I dismissed your article but it takes guts to put a theory out there like you did and I appreciate the conversation it's generated.

no yesterday or tomorrow, no better remedy for sorrow
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Reply #36 posted 09/30/19 2:39am

Vannormal

avatar

-

I'm only interested in 13.000 words of bashing Prince's religious era.

-

Should i say, lol ?

-

"...no matter what, all will be fine, always."
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Reply #37 posted 09/30/19 6:21am

violetcrush

Strive said:



PeggyO said:


Though I read Mayte's book 3 or so years ago, I don't remember any of the above statements by Mayte?? I am on vacation and can't check but I don't remember Mayte stating that Prince went on an "hour-after-hour rant quoting scripture" or talking about Baptism etc. etc." Are these statements from her book, The Most Beautiful? I remember her talking more gently.




Direct quotes from chapter 11 of The Most Beautiful.



violetcrush, I'll try to put together the time line of everything tomorrow. Mayte said that Manuela swore to her that nothing (sexual) happened until much later after her apperance. I think he was flirting with the idea of JW and Manuela but didn't pull the trigger until late 2000, early 2001.



TrivialPursuit, I know it seemed like I dismissed your article but it takes guts to put a theory out there like you did and I appreciate the conversation it's generated.


I think it’s possible that he was not intimate with Manuela until ‘99-2000, but it does seem that he was pretty deep into JW by ‘98 if you watch some of the interviews and his appearances. He had been “studying” with Larry for quite some time. He performed The Cross and changed the lyrics to The Christ and spoke about Stauros before he sang the song. It seems Larry had him reeled in by that point.
*
My thoughts about Prince starting an affair with Manuela prior to 2000 stem from his song Madrid to Chicago which he recorded in ‘98-‘99. It’s quite an explicit tale of him on the plane and not being able to wait until he can get back to perform oral sex on a woman. Of course, he could be referencing any woman, but it would also fit with his pursuing Manuela. She also appeared in his video for Come On which was filmed in London in 1998. My thought is that they may have been fooling around but not having sex.
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Reply #38 posted 09/30/19 8:27am

OldFriends4Sal
e

avatar

moderator

Thank you I really appreciate this. This has helped me as well in piecing together my thoughts on his JW conversion.

#IDEFINEME #ALBUMSSTILLMATTER

A Liar Shall Not Tarry In My Presence
I will make you cyber shit in your pants!
What's the matter with your life
Is poverty bringing U down?
Is the mailman jerking U 'round?
Did he put your million dollar check
In
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Reply #39 posted 09/30/19 8:29am

mk456

avatar

Its nice that the OP wrote the article as it shines a light on this interesting song - the article is in part an interpretation of the lyrics of the song - yet I would say (as someone else has already mentioned) that Princes 'One song' lyrics speak for themselves - we all have the free will to consider whether some of the lyrics resonate with us or not.

<p>

Prince obviously had a strong belief in God from the start of his career - example giving thanks to God in the liner notes of his albums and various songs with spiritual references. It is also obvious his more distinctly spiritual songs divided his fanbase - there were/are many who do not believe in God and do not identify with this aspect of his music and also there are those who do believe in God that can appreciate or identify (wholly or to some extent) with his belief in God - without necessarily agreeing with dogmatic organisations or without adhering to or being part of the specific JW approach.

<p>

I am not a Jehovah Witness but I did identify with some of the lyrics in 'One song'. Many people worldwide in various spiritual traditions and religions believe that God exists and have different names for God - and many believe God exists yet are not part of what they may view as a dogmatic religious institution. Most spiritual traditions and religions have in common the teaching that God exists and we are each a soul in a body - it is evident from his songs that Prince had this belief also. From that perspective as I also believe God exists I can appreciate many of the lyrics in Prince's 'One song' and his words on aspects of society although they are Prince's perspective and not my own specific perspective - I am not a JW.

<p>

I commend the OP for writing the article as it seems to be an honest attempt to understand/analyse Prince's spiritual views - unavoidably perhaps the article becomes partly a reflection of the OP's own interpretations (thats fine we each ahve our own perspective) and perhaps his frustration that 'spiritual Prince' is not the old Prince he wants him to be - "was it good for you was I what you wanted me to be" said Prince in concert - Prince's 'actual' beliefs are in the song lyrics itself. The OP article laments that Prince no longer used the f word - thats fine we each have our preferences - I think Prince simply grew out of using the f word as part of maturing as a person and with his more specific spiritual aspects. I think the OP makes some valid observations - example I agree that Prince wanted to do something about the troubled world in which we live and that he saw God as the missing element. I also disagree with some of the OP observations and interpretations - it also seems that the article bashes Prince beliefs in places and respects/tolerates those beliefs in other places.

<p>

The article says Prince "wasn’t provoking us to think about something new" i disagree imho he was provoking us to think about God and think 'more' about the society we live in. I agree that dogma is often not a good thing - each person has their own valid path, however I believe Prince provoking people to think about God and this society is/was a good thing.

<p>

I think Prince was correct in calling out the mass corporate owned media as being part of the problem with society. The OP states Prince also "recognized the illusion of unity through voting and choice and likely noted the insanity of thinking this side of the aisle was any different than that side. They are both in the same building, part of the same problem and part of the same illusion." OP I think you are correct in this observation and that Prince was correct - both sides of the political spectrum (socalled left and socalled right) are ultimately controlled and funded(or debt forgiven) by the same small group of connected people - they are quite happy to have the larger public (300 million in the US) divided into socalled left and socalled right, verbally attacking each other or to be constantly distracted by socalled news 'programmes' (which spin the narrative and 'programme' peoples' thinking) - all the while those socalled elites some of which own the worlds immensely profitable privately owned banking system (everyone pays interest on money they create from nothing - they dont want you or the media talking about that) and also own 96% of the corporate mass media in the US - they get richer no matter 'who' is in political office. Prince's song colonised mind also referred to this "illusion of choice".

<p>

I still remember the day about 38 years ago when I first heard Prince. The music changed my life and I grateful for the joy of it. Now we are here decades later (still) talking about it all.

Peace and respect to Prince and Prince fams.

[Edited 9/30/19 8:32am]

God Bless Prince
(I've been on prince.org on and off since 1998. This is my 3rd or 4th username as I forgot passwords. Previous usernames were mgck01, sledgemcpeak. Peace to all here)
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Reply #40 posted 09/30/19 8:57am

violetcrush

^^^ Very good insights and I agree with many of your points.
*
I do think though, that religion, in many ways also has an “agenda” to control the narrative in order to gain followers. Religious sects also have levels of power and members with deep pockets. It was/is a bit hypocritical of Prince and others to criticize the media and political factions when the religious sects have often been following the same agenda or practices.
*
Prince, during his heavy JW period was absolutely wanting to control the narrative with regard to religious beliefs, and was no longer accepting other ideas or beliefs. This was a tough pill to swallow for many fans, as they wanted to be entertained by listening to Prince and not “sermonized”. I think by 2004 he realized this, and then we got Musicology, which brought many fans back into the mix. He was playing his 80’s music again - allbeit with some new lyrics, and focusing on entertaining instead of preaching.
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Reply #41 posted 09/30/19 9:37am

purplefam99

Very good essay OP. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

i thought the statorus talk was nothing more than someone who is deeply in Star Wars

discussion the minutia. It was geek religious talk. i get it, some places and in songs the cross

is called a tree. he was nailed to a tree. wood is in essence a tree. but anyway.

some thoughts i have been having about the Lovesexy era and the music.

have you come across Pope John Pauls book "man and woman he created them"/ theology of the body? he wrote it in 1963, and i wonder if Prince ever came across this book. it is, when you break

it down, very close to what prince was saying in lovesexy. the Pope in very difficult language says

that we are to love god as a man loves his wife. our hearts a blaze with our desire for Him. and that the spousal relationship, that our minds

can relate too, is the closest thing used to describe how our deep love of God should be. Pope John

Paul also says that "the problem with pornography is not that it shows too much but that it doesn't

show enough, it doesn't show the spirituality of the person" it leaves it out. when we seperate the

spirit from the physical it is death. Pornography is death because there is no spirit. You(OP) touched

on this in you essay, when you spoke of Princes early music and he changing the lyric to " it is mainly

a spritual thing" i think he realized that earlier music he left out the spiritual which makes the ectasy

of the physical more intense when the spiritual is present.

i never liked or understood the lovesexy cover, other than he looked like a cherub without bow and arrow. but i think after examining Pope johns, theology of the body, the cover art was, i think,

princes attempt to equalize the unequal amount of nudity that women get. in the Garden both man

and woman were naked, God was pleased at the sight of both. The body and the spirit linked. There

is lots of spousal language used in the bible to describe our relationship to God. And lots of erotic

imagery used to describe it too. Theology of the body asserts the body is a sign of how we get to heaven. if you can give it a read, you will likely need the companion guide that goes along to help

break it down what Pope John is sayin theologically. the part that resounded with me profoundly

was we are Biology and Theology, body and spirt. and we can't seperate the two or we are dead.

i believe that Prince was trying to convey, at least in part, what Pope John Paul wrote in "Man and

Woman, He created them". Sorry for the ramble, i sure i will read this back later and confuse myself

but time is of the essence in my house and this is what came out as quickly as i could get to it and

get back to life. thx again.

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Reply #42 posted 09/30/19 9:40am

TrivialPursuit

avatar

Vannormal said:

-

I'm only interested in 13.000 words of bashing Prince's religious era.

-

Should i say, lol ?

-


It's not a bash at all, actually.

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #43 posted 09/30/19 9:42am

TrivialPursuit

avatar

violetcrush said:

Prince, during his heavy JW period was absolutely wanting to control the narrative with regard to religious beliefs, and was no longer accepting other ideas or beliefs. This was a tough pill to swallow for many fans, as they wanted to be entertained by listening to Prince and not “sermonized”.


Exactly.

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #44 posted 09/30/19 9:53am

TrivialPursuit

avatar

purplefam99 said:

Very good essay OP. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

i thought the statorus talk was nothing more than someone who is deeply in Star Wars

discussion the minutia. It was geek religious talk. i get it, some places and in songs the cross

is called a tree. he was nailed to a tree. wood is in essence a tree. but anyway.

.....

i never liked or understood the lovesexy cover, other than he looked like a cherub without bow and arrow. but i think after examining Pope johns, theology of the body, the cover art was, i think, princes attempt to equalize the unequal amount of nudity that women get.

Thanks for reading it.



It was geek religious talk, but it's a staple of the JW foundational beliefs. Even their bible changes major words to change whole meanings of verses. Their itemized list, including "Stauros", sets them apart from other evangelical and protestant denominations. The New International Version vs. King James vs Living Word etc are simply interpretations based on language, not ideology. JW's change things to support their ideologies, not just put the word "river" in place of "creek" or whatever. It seems like such a minor detail, cross or pole, but the truth is - like you stated - it was a tree. Yet, Prince thought he was really onto something with that, and embarrassed the fuck out of himself and his wife on Vibe during that 1998 interview. It was his honeymoon period, and it was painful at times.



I am not sure I buy the theory about the Lovesexy cover, though. Prince's whole mantra at that time was about "seeing God" and being reborn. Even Act II of the Lovesexy Tour had him and the band coming out of the floor, amongst lights and smoke, as if watching man being made from the dirt of the earth a la Adam in the garden. The first act was mostly black and white in costume and such (some variations of course), and the second act was full of color, flowers popping up around the perimeter of the stage, color outfits, more positive love-centric songs, etc. So the cover supports the forthcoming campaign. Prince always stuck to the 'look' or feel of an album through its videos and tour until he was onto a new thing. Madonna and MJ would do the same thing. They created templates for 21st-century wannabes. So the nudity wasn't an attempt to balance women being objects, it was his own quasi-spiritual rebirth.

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #45 posted 09/30/19 9:59am

purplefam99

TrivialPursuit said:

violetcrush said:

Prince, during his heavy JW period was absolutely wanting to control the narrative with regard to religious beliefs, and was no longer accepting other ideas or beliefs. This was a tough pill to swallow for many fans, as they wanted to be entertained by listening to Prince and not “sermonized”.


Exactly.

which is why, i think, he took to sermonizing so intensly. he saw how quickly he had caused

death, seperation of the spirit from the body in his early work, to become successful perhaps, i think he was hoping he could

undo what he had done. who wants a dead fan base who can only be moved ny the physical, he

wanted his fans to be moved by the ectasy that arises when the physical and spiritual are intwined.

the fan base should be flattered that he cared for them so much.

i think it is possible anyway.

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Reply #46 posted 09/30/19 10:13am

purplefam99

TrivialPursuit said:

purplefam99 said:

Very good essay OP. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

i thought the statorus talk was nothing more than someone who is deeply in Star Wars

discussion the minutia. It was geek religious talk. i get it, some places and in songs the cross

is called a tree. he was nailed to a tree. wood is in essence a tree. but anyway.

.....

i never liked or understood the lovesexy cover, other than he looked like a cherub without bow and arrow. but i think after examining Pope johns, theology of the body, the cover art was, i think, princes attempt to equalize the unequal amount of nudity that women get.

Thanks for reading it.



It was geek religious talk, but it's a staple of the JW foundational beliefs. Even their bible changes major words to change whole meanings of verses. Their itemized list, including "Stauros", sets them apart from other evangelical and protestant denominations. The New International Version vs. King James vs Living Word etc are simply interpretations based on language, not ideology. JW's change things to support their ideologies, not just put the word "river" in place of "creek" or whatever. It seems like such a minor detail, cross or pole, but the truth is - like you stated - it was a tree. Yet, Prince thought he was really onto something with that, and embarrassed the fuck out of himself and his wife on Vibe during that 1998 interview. It was his honeymoon period, and it was painful at times.



I am not sure I buy the theory about the Lovesexy cover, though. Prince's whole mantra at that time was about "seeing God" and being reborn. Even Act II of the Lovesexy Tour had him and the band coming out of the floor, amongst lights and smoke, as if watching man being made from the dirt of the earth a la Adam in the garden. The first act was mostly black and white in costume and such (some variations of course), and the second act was full of color, flowers popping up around the perimeter of the stage, color outfits, more positive love-centric songs, etc. So the cover supports the forthcoming campaign. Prince always stuck to the 'look' or feel of an album through its videos and tour until he was onto a new thing. Madonna and MJ would do the same thing. They created templates for 21st-century wannabes. So the nudity wasn't an attempt to balance women being objects, it was his own quasi-spiritual rebirth.

i understand that is your feeling, but you can't say that for sure ^^.

i don't think of it as a rebirth, he was always spiritual. he just turned it up. and turned some other stuff down. evening it out. but it is hard to wake the dead.

spousal embarrassment goes with the territory, sorry mayte, she is not exempt cause she married Prince.

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Reply #47 posted 09/30/19 12:18pm

mk456

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violetcrush said:

^^^ Very good insights and I agree with many of your points. * I do think though, that religion, in many ways also has an “agenda” to control the narrative in order to gain followers. Religious sects also have levels of power and members with deep pockets. It was/is a bit hypocritical of Prince and others to criticize the media and political factions when the religious sects have often been following the same agenda or practices. * Prince, during his heavy JW period was absolutely wanting to control the narrative with regard to religious beliefs, and was no longer accepting other ideas or beliefs. This was a tough pill to swallow for many fans, as they wanted to be entertained by listening to Prince and not “sermonized”. I think by 2004 he realized this, and then we got Musicology, which brought many fans back into the mix.

Hi. I agree with what you say about organised religion and 'agendas' - when those agendas exist (and they do) it can be about money, power, authority and controlling even altering the narrative. I do believe in God though in my experience any organisation religious, political, financial, media, corporate or otherwise that has power or a power structure certainly has the very real potential to attract/contain narcissistic power hungry individuals/groups or agendas.

<p>

Its a complicated discussion as there are many religions and about 3 billion people that claim a religious affiliation and many claim benefit from spiritual practice - the actions of folks in authority in such organisations or recieving large amounts of money surely should be treated with much more discernment - the original teachings of various spiritual traditions indicate the priests and monks in providing spiritual wisdom would maintain a 'minimal material existence' not personally requiring excessive money. Power hungry religious institutions certainly over the past 1000 years or so very often did not reflect that.

<p>

Furthemore, books have been written by individuals about this issue within all the major religions (large and small) being infiltrated throughout history by power hungry people/groups at the upper levels of authority. Whether it be the teachings of Jesus, Buddha or Krishna or another spiritual path - the original teachings exist for all to read and 'consider' regardless of whether one is part of a religious organisation or not.

Peace.

God Bless Prince
(I've been on prince.org on and off since 1998. This is my 3rd or 4th username as I forgot passwords. Previous usernames were mgck01, sledgemcpeak. Peace to all here)
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Reply #48 posted 09/30/19 12:19pm

barnswallow

In the New York Times' the 'Prince Investigation Files' (April 20, 2018), it speaks of the 'suitcase contents' (p. 130, #46) in the Mirror Room (somewhere in PP). One item was a book: 'Genesis Giants 6' by Stephen Quayle. I started an on-line search of the book but I didn't want to open the links since they seemed to be sites with a level of kookiness that I prefer to avoid. The only link I opened was the 'Amazon books' one, which didn't provide much insight. Was this a book he read? Maybe it was just a book that someone (an acquaintance? a fan?) passed to him, and he tossed into his suitcase. Does anyone know anything about it? Would a JW read such a book? Would that sort of topic be off-limits?

P.S. I've been enjoying Trivial Pursuit's essay. Thanks for posting! I haven't encountered 'One Song' yet... I'll look for it.

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Reply #49 posted 09/30/19 12:26pm

TrivialPursuit

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purplefam99 said:

i understand that is your feeling, but you can't say that for sure ^^.

i don't think of it as a rebirth, he was always spiritual. he just turned it up. and turned some other stuff down. evening it out. but it is hard to wake the dead.


And you certainly can't say he was trying to balance the overt use of nude women in media by posing naked on an album cover. Prince loved women, but he still objectified them in many ways.

And in fact, my theory holds more water, because he talked about it all the time. Every thing point to his pseudo-spiritual-rebirth in interviews, that "I saw God" story (I mentioned in my essay that he really said he saw the devil), the album itself and the concert. Just sayin', Lovesexy wasn't about balanced the sexes. It was church-lite.

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #50 posted 09/30/19 12:31pm

TrivialPursuit

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barnswallow said:

In the New York Times' the 'Prince Investigation Files' (April 20, 2018), it speaks of the 'suitcase contents' (p. 130, #46) in the Mirror Room (somewhere in PP). One item was a book: 'Genesis Giants 6' by Stephen Quayle. ...Does anyone know anything about it? Would a JW read such a book? Would that sort of topic be off-limits?

P.S. I've been enjoying Trivial Pursuit's essay. Thanks for posting! I haven't encountered 'One Song' yet... I'll look for it.


Goodreads only has this blurb: "Discover the hidden truth about Giants - the Master Builders of Ancient Civilizations. Giants not only existed, they most likely ruled with superior physical and mental superiority.." It has a 4.5 rating on there (out of 5). I don't think him being a JW has anything to do w/ him possibly reading this book. I think Prince read a lot, and this was probably just something that interested him.

Thanks for reading the essay. I'm pretty proud of it. The track is on YouTube (although I think I didn't link it anywhere in the essay, I forget). Visually it's not that interesting, but the message is certainly provocative.


This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #51 posted 09/30/19 12:34pm

violetcrush

purplefam99 said:

TrivialPursuit said:


Exactly.

which is why, i think, he took to sermonizing so intensly. he saw how quickly he had caused

death, seperation of the spirit from the body in his early work, to become successful perhaps, i think he was hoping he could

undo what he had done. who wants a dead fan base who can only be moved ny the physical, he

wanted his fans to be moved by the ectasy that arises when the physical and spiritual are intwined.

the fan base should be flattered that he cared for them so much.

i think it is possible anyway.

Did we listen to the same Prince in the 80''s and early 90's??? His music was far from "causing death" to his fans. He always sang against war (Ronnie Talk To Russia), guns (Annie Christian and The Undertaker - "put away the guns for future's sake, don't be another number for the Undertaker..."), gang violence, and bad or corrupt politics. Many of his songs were about love too. Yes, he did also sing about sex, but never in a way that expressed violence against women - they were never "bitches" and Ho's" in his songs - they were always "baby" or "darling" or "lover". Yes his songs about sex were provocative and attention-grabbing, but they were not dark or violent. Darling Nikki is practically G rated compared to what we hear today. I think all or most of his fans were exhilerated by his music, and excited to be on that ride with him. I know I was for sure.

*

Prince had SO many songs that incorporated his Christian and/or spiritual beliefs from Purple Rain forward. God, The Ladder - even his song Temptation was about his inner conflict of understanding that love is more important than lust, and he was trying to abide by that. Parade was just a beautiful and artistic expression in music. Same with SOTT, and LoveSexy was ALL about choosing God/Love over the Devil/Hate and Violence. Then you have Love Thy Will Be Done and more of his spiritual/religious message with Graffiti Bridge. In fact, even though he was delivering a "gentler" push with those songs he was still losing fans, because many felt it was crossing the line from pop music to the gospel genre.

*

He had SO many beautiful songs about love, sex, relationship conflicts, loneliness, and longing throughout the 80's and 90's. He was never contributing to the move toward violence in music. His use of profanity in his songs was also minimal compared to the music that was gaining popularity in the early 90's and forward. When asked about his more explicit 80's and 90's music in interviews even Prince would always say that his lyrics were very tame compared to the Rap movement during that time and today's lyrics. He also regularly stated that sex is a spiritual thing and should not be considered a bad thing to sing about.

*

I think, as the OP expressed in his piece and others have posted here, Prince was on a "mission" with the JW affiliation and spreading that message. The group is known to require and expect their members to "witness" to others, and to bring new people to the faith - hence the knocking on doors and tracking the hours spent talking to non-members about the religion. I believe it was either Questlove or one of his associates who stated Prince would mark his calendar to keep track of his time spent "witnessing" to those in his camp .

*

I think the strong push of his beliefs was tied to the nature of the faith and not because he ever thought his older music was so negative or hurtful to his fans. Aging and maturity changed his perspective as well, as it does with many people, and he became more focused on including younger kids at his shows which called for keeping his lyrics "cleaner". At one of his '97 JOTY shows - before he fully dropped the cursing - he started playing Face Down, and said, "if y'all brought your kids go ahead and cover their ears for this one.." - because that song has the "motherfucker" lyrics. So, it seems he was already thinking about that well before he stopped the cursing.

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Reply #52 posted 09/30/19 12:56pm

violetcrush

mk456 said:

violetcrush said:

^^^ Very good insights and I agree with many of your points. * I do think though, that religion, in many ways also has an “agenda” to control the narrative in order to gain followers. Religious sects also have levels of power and members with deep pockets. It was/is a bit hypocritical of Prince and others to criticize the media and political factions when the religious sects have often been following the same agenda or practices. * Prince, during his heavy JW period was absolutely wanting to control the narrative with regard to religious beliefs, and was no longer accepting other ideas or beliefs. This was a tough pill to swallow for many fans, as they wanted to be entertained by listening to Prince and not “sermonized”. I think by 2004 he realized this, and then we got Musicology, which brought many fans back into the mix.

Hi. I agree with what you say about organised religion and 'agendas' - when those agendas exist (and they do) it can be about money, power, authority and controlling even altering the narrative. I do believe in God though in my experience any organisation religious, political, financial, media, corporate or otherwise that has power or a power structure certainly has the very real potential to attract/contain narcissistic power hungry individuals/groups or agendas.

<p>

Its a complicated discussion as there are many religions and about 3 billion people that claim a religious affiliation and many claim benefit from spiritual practice - the actions of folks in authority in such organisations or recieving large amounts of money surely should be treated with much more discernment - the original teachings of various spiritual traditions indicate the priests and monks in providing spiritual wisdom would maintain a 'minimal material existence' not personally requiring excessive money. Power hungry religious institutions certainly over the past 1000 years or so very often did not reflect that.

<p>

Furthemore, books have been written by individuals about this issue within all the major religions (large and small) being infiltrated throughout history by power hungry people/groups at the upper levels of authority. Whether it be the teachings of Jesus, Buddha or Krishna or another spiritual path - the original teachings exist for all to read and 'consider' regardless of whether one is part of a religious organisation or not.

Peace.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying here. Of course, all should be free to believe, practice, and contribute to any faith they desire - or none at all. I think many of us have certain beliefs based upon what we were taught and/or exposed to as young children - of course, some change those beliefs as they age and experience other ideas or faiths. There are also many who do not practice or believe in any particular faith or higher power at all. All of this should be okay and accepted regardless of how strongly our belief is in something specific.

*

Problem is, and has been for thousands of years, that religious freedom has not been the norm. Many were/are forced into practicing a specific faith, or killed for refusing. Such is the irony that all original teachings within religious factions are based on love, good deeds, and acceptance; however, we have seen just the opposite with most of them over time with war, corruption, sexual abuse, and bigotry.

*

Prince joined a faction that expects alientation and exclusion by it's members of anyone who refuses to believe and practice its faith. I think this is why Prince pushed those beliefs so hard within his music between 1999-2003.

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Reply #53 posted 09/30/19 1:03pm

jfenster

but didnt his leap start on the purple rain album?

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Reply #54 posted 09/30/19 1:07pm

OperatingTheta
n

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An interesting and provocative article.

What I will add, as a former Jehovah's Witness, is that the majority of Prince's lyrics and statements regarding the faith were subject to his own interpretation. What he presented was in actuality his own personal hybrid, that differs from official JW doctrines, particularly in his tendency to blend JW beliefs with more Eastern spiritual concepts, many of which (the third eye, energy fields, the Akashic Records, chakra points, etc.) would be unacceptable for a regular, 'rank and file' JW to espouse.

In addition, Prince linked his faith to interpretations of politics, history and government, that are generally strongly discouraged among Jehovah's Witnesses who are politically neutral.

While Larry Graham spoke of his faith and engaged Prince in Bible Studies, as is typical of any Jehovah's Witness to any interested person (the perogative of the Jehovah's Witness is to witness), the beliefs Prince came away with were very much his own blend and were possibly 'tolerated' due to his fame and stature.

Larry witnessing to Prince was not exceptional at all. He merely did as he was trained in terms of the studies themselves and followed the tenets of a faith he clearly has a strong conviction in. Jehovah's Witness Elders and study conductors are unpaid and all donations go directly to the Watchtower Society, so Larry's only possible financial motive would be the boost to his musical and touring career, which did not require the need for Bible studies or a spiritual relationship. Chaka Khan also released an album and toured with Prince in the same year with no religious connotations whatsoever.

*
[Edited 9/30/19 13:09pm]
[Edited 9/30/19 13:10pm]
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Reply #55 posted 09/30/19 1:17pm

violetcrush

purplefam99 said:

Very good essay OP. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

i thought the statorus talk was nothing more than someone who is deeply in Star Wars

discussion the minutia. It was geek religious talk. i get it, some places and in songs the cross

is called a tree. he was nailed to a tree. wood is in essence a tree. but anyway.

some thoughts i have been having about the Lovesexy era and the music.

have you come across Pope John Pauls book "man and woman he created them"/ theology of the body? he wrote it in 1963, and i wonder if Prince ever came across this book. it is, when you break

it down, very close to what prince was saying in lovesexy. the Pope in very difficult language says

that we are to love god as a man loves his wife. our hearts a blaze with our desire for Him. and that the spousal relationship, that our minds

can relate too, is the closest thing used to describe how our deep love of God should be. Pope John

Paul also says that "the problem with pornography is not that it shows too much but that it doesn't

show enough, it doesn't show the spirituality of the person" it leaves it out. when we seperate the

spirit from the physical it is death. Pornography is death because there is no spirit. You(OP) touched

on this in you essay, when you spoke of Princes early music and he changing the lyric to " it is mainly

a spritual thing" i think he realized that earlier music he left out the spiritual which makes the ectasy

of the physical more intense when the spiritual is present.

i never liked or understood the lovesexy cover, other than he looked like a cherub without bow and arrow. but i think after examining Pope johns, theology of the body, the cover art was, i think,

princes attempt to equalize the unequal amount of nudity that women get. in the Garden both man

and woman were naked, God was pleased at the sight of both. The body and the spirit linked. There

is lots of spousal language used in the bible to describe our relationship to God. And lots of erotic

imagery used to describe it too. Theology of the body asserts the body is a sign of how we get to heaven. if you can give it a read, you will likely need the companion guide that goes along to help

break it down what Pope John is sayin theologically. the part that resounded with me profoundly

was we are Biology and Theology, body and spirt. and we can't seperate the two or we are dead.

i believe that Prince was trying to convey, at least in part, what Pope John Paul wrote in "Man and

Woman, He created them". Sorry for the ramble, i sure i will read this back later and confuse myself

but time is of the essence in my house and this is what came out as quickly as i could get to it and

get back to life. thx again.

First bolded comment - Prince (and Larry Graham too) were referring to the term "Stauros" which means "an upright stake or pole" - not a tree. They were saying that all of the Christian sects had lied about how Jesus was actually killed - that his arms were not outspread and nailed to a Cross, but rather placed straight above his head, which would have been a much more painful and torturous way to place him. Prince and Larry were stating that the belief of Jesus being crucified on the cross was/is a lie - Prince stated before he sang The Christ (formerly "The Cross") "perhaps someone lied about the way someone died..".

*

Second bolded comment - yes, Prince was definitely stating that God is love and "Spooky Electric" was the Devil during the LoveSexy period. However, I do not think his message was about the comparing the love of God to that between a husband and wife. His message was about the love between a person and God, and if/when you find and understand God's love you will be happy and all will be okay. All of this stemmed from the "dark" night that he tried the Ecstacy drug and had an "experience" with or saw a message from God. His account of this was written in the LoveSexy programme.

*

We have to remember though - along with the chunk of spiritual songs during that time Prince was also recording songs like Glam Slam, Anna Waiting, and The Electric Chair. So, he was always mixing the overtly sexual with the spiritual in his music. And then you have the Come album, which is another ball of wax!! biggrin

[Edited 9/30/19 13:18pm]

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Reply #56 posted 09/30/19 1:28pm

mk456

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Interesting to read the additional thought provoking perspectives (from purplefam99 and violetcrush and operatingtheta). This thread reminded of the song the Ladder (as already mentioned by violetcrush) and yes also the song - Love Thy Will Be Done is also a beautiful song that seems to describe his feeling or internal state. Whatever was exactly going on in Prince's mind I guess will we never know for sure - though maybe the lyrics indicate he went through a greater form of surrender to God that he had to some extent resisted previously.

<p>

Love, thy will be done I can no longer hide, I can no longer run

No longer can I resist Your guiding light

That gives me the power to keep up the fight

Oh Lord, love, thy will be done

Since I have found you, my life has just begun

And I see all of Your creations as one perfect complex

No one less beautiful or more special than the next

We are all blessed and so wise to accept

Thy will, love, be done Love, thy will be mine

And make me strive for the glorious and divine

I could not be more, more satisfied (Satisfied)

Even when there's no peace outside my window, there's peace inside

And that's why I no longer run (I no longer run) Love, thy will be done"

[Edited 9/30/19 13:48pm]

God Bless Prince
(I've been on prince.org on and off since 1998. This is my 3rd or 4th username as I forgot passwords. Previous usernames were mgck01, sledgemcpeak. Peace to all here)
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Reply #57 posted 09/30/19 1:38pm

violetcrush

OperatingThetan said:

An interesting and provocative article. What I will add, as a former Jehovah's Witness, is that the majority of Prince's lyrics and statements regarding the faith were subject to his own interpretation. What he presented was in actuality his own personal hybrid, that differs from official JW doctrines, particularly in his tendency to blend JW beliefs with more Eastern spiritual concepts, many of which (the third eye, energy fields, the Akashic Records, chakra points, etc.) would be unacceptable for a regular, 'rank and file' JW to espouse. In addition, Prince linked his faith to interpretations of politics, history and government, that are generally strongly discouraged among Jehovah's Witnesses who are politically neutral. While Larry Graham spoke of his faith and engaged Prince in Bible Studies, as is typical of any Jehovah's Witness to any interested person (the perogative of the Jehovah's Witness is to witness), the beliefs Prince came away with were very much his own blend and were possibly 'tolerated' due to his fame and stature. Larry witnessing to Prince was not exceptional at all. He merely did as he was trained in terms of the studies themselves and followed the tenets of a faith he clearly has a strong conviction in. Jehovah's Witness Elders and study conductors are unpaid and all donations go directly to the Watchtower Society, so Larry's only possible financial motive would be the boost to his musical and touring career, which did not require the need for Bible studies or a spiritual relationship. Chaka Khan also released an album and toured with Prince in the same year with no religious connotations whatsoever. * [Edited 9/30/19 13:09pm] [Edited 9/30/19 13:10pm]

Thank you for the information. I had mentioned Prince incorporating the Eastern spiritual aspects (Third Eye, etc) into his music in later years, which was an indication to me that he was moving away from the more strict JW following. I agree with, and have said the same on other threads, that the JW gave Prince much more "leeway" with his practices and public presentation of the JW faith.

*

I never thought that Larry was receiving any type of financial gain by witnessing to Prince and bringing him in to the JW faith, but my thought was always that he arrived during a very vulnerable time for Prince - just after he had lost his Son, and Prince may have been more easily influenced with regard to learning and joining the JW faith.

*

Wondering if you can shed more light on the belief that JW discourage friendship or close relations with those who are not members? If that is the case it may also speak to how and why Larry moved to MN and quickly became a best friend to Prince.

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Reply #58 posted 09/30/19 1:47pm

violetcrush

mk456 said:


Interesting to read the additional thought provoking perspectives (from purplefam99 and violetcrush) and nicely described - this thread reminded of the song the Ladder (as mentioned by violetcrush). Yes - Love Thy Will Be Done is also a beautiful song that seems to describe his feeling or internal state. Whatever was exactly going on in Prince's mind I guess will we never know for sure - though maybe the lyrics indicate he went through a greater form of surrender to God that he had to some extent resisted previously ?.

Love, thy will be done I can no longer hide, I can no longer run

No longer can I resist Your guiding light

That gives me the power to keep up the fight

Oh Lord, love, thy will be done

Since I have found you, my life has just begun

And I see all of Your creations as one perfect complex

No one less beautiful or more special than the next

We are all blessed and so wise to accept

Thy will, love, be done Love, thy will be mine

And make me strive for the glorious and divine

I could not be more, more satisfied (Satisfied)

Even when there's no peace outside my window, there's peace inside

And that's why I no longer run (I no longer run) Love, thy will be done"

The only thing we have to be careful of with "Love Thy Will Be Done" is that the lyrics, while added to by Prince, came from a book of poems/lyrics written by Martika. The writing credit is to both Prince and Martika. Regardless, the lyrics resonated with Prince and were important to him at the time, so he added to them and wrote the music. It is an exceptionally beautiful song.

*

I think, from the beginning of his career, but especially from the point of enormous success with Purple Rain forward, Prince was always struggling with his faith and his worldly existence/behaviors. He played it all out for us in his songs. In his Spring 1985 interview with Rolling Stone he discussed an "experience" he had relating to God, and that he was going to make a film about it - "not the next one" he said, (which ended up being UTCM), "but the one after that", which was Graffiti Bridge. So, I think he was always thinking about, and then writing songs about his struggle between the spiritual and the secular.

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Reply #59 posted 09/30/19 1:55pm

violetcrush

jfenster said:

but didnt his leap start on the purple rain album?

Maybe, but it was a gentle quieter leap mixed in with all of the many provocative and sexual songs. He was still young, foul-mouthed biggrin and doing his rock star thing. He wasn't doing the "preacher" thing in his songs or at his shows. He did during LoveSexy, but that was also part of the theatrics of the show - first half performing all of his yummy smutty songs (Head, Sister, Erotic City, Bob George...ahhh sigh) to the second half peforming the more spiritual songs (The Cross, I Wish U Heaven, Lovesexy, etc). So, the crowd got the best of both worlds AND that amazing solo piano medley too!!

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