BartVanHemelen said:

Except for the soundtrack albums they'll lose everything else to Sony/Legacy in 2021. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if they've gotten another deal in return, e.g. WRT first refusal rights for upcoming Vault releases).

In America.

From what I can piece together, they have Purple Rain/Parade/Batman/Graffiti Bridge in perpetuity, a finger in the pie of every future vault release made up of studio material that was recorded during his original WB contract and a number of albums in different regions in perpetuity. (Arguably where he is more popular and more likely to generate revenue in the future)

God bless Prince but he was a terrible businessman. If it wasn't for him touring like a fiend during his lifetime, he would've been stripped naked by the corporate world and bankrupted a million times over.

[Edited 9/8/19 15:44pm]

Strive said:

touring like a fiend

.

Oh please. Most of his tours lasted mere weeks. Other artists tour for months, even years. Ed Sheeran just finished a 2+ years tour of 260 gigs: https://en.wikipedia.org/...C3%B7_Tour . Prince's longest was IIRC the Purple Rain Tour, which lasted six months and comprised about 100 concerts.

BartVanHemelen said:

Strive said:

touring like a fiend

.

Oh please. Most of his tours lasted mere weeks. Other artists tour for months, even years. Ed Sheeran just finished a 2+ years tour of 260 gigs: https://en.wikipedia.org/...C3%B7_Tour . Prince's longest was IIRC the Purple Rain Tour, which lasted six months and comprised about 100 concerts.

You make a great point. For someone who loved to play live, his album tours were surprisingly short, when compared to other major recording acts.

BartVanHemelen said:

BartVanHemelen said:

Strive said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Oh please. Most of his tours lasted mere weeks. Other artists tour for months, even years. Ed Sheeran just finished a 2+ years tour of 260 gigs: https://en.wikipedia.org/...C3%B7_Tour . Prince's longest was IIRC the Purple Rain Tour, which lasted six months and comprised about 100 concerts.

Most artists don't live and breath touring the way Prince did. Discounting the rehearsal done before he hit the road, most of the modern routine was long soundcheck, show, watching/critiquing the show, aftershow. (At least until he went to two shows a night) The Musicology tour may not have been 2+ years, 260 gigs but it was a grueling grind of a tour where he was piling on additional dates. But, even if you don't agree with the idea that he was touring like a fiend throughout his life, touring is what paid the bills. That was my point. He could counter his numerous bad business decisions by performing. [Edited 9/9/19 6:50am]

But Musicology wasn't under WB.

But that time, artists had to tour to make the money they used to make with the albums.
.
I've looked it over, from Prince(1979)-Lovesexy(1989) the tours usually never went a full years time.
Even Purple Rain only went 6 months. The Parade tour

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not counting off concert shows like opening for the Stones

Dirty Mind released October 1980 tour started December 1980 - June 4 1981

Controvery released (October 1981 (the Time released July 1981) tour started November 1981 - March 1982

1999 released October 1982 What Time Is It? released August 1982 Vanity 6 released August 1982
1999 tour started November 1982-December 1982 / February 1983 - April 1982

.

Purple Rain 1983-1985 for obvious reason was a longer era
Purple Rain released June 1984 Ice Cream Castles released July 1984 Glamorous Life released June 1984 Apollonia 6 released October 1984
Purple Rain the movie released July 1984

Purple Rain tour starts November 1984 - April 7th 1985

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Around the World in a Day released April 22, 1985 with no supporting tour

Romance 1600 released August 1985

the Family released September 1985

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Parade released March 1986

Mazarati released March 1986

Parade Hit n Run tour starts May 1986 - September 1986
Under the Cherry Moon movie released July 1986

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Madhouse 8 released January 1987
Sheila E released February 1987

SOTT released April 1987

Jill Jones released May 1987
SOTT tour starts May 1987 - June 1987 Prince superstition got the best of him during a lighting storm and turns to putting SOTT on film released October 1987

Madhouse 16 released November 1987

Black album pulled Decemeber 1987

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Lovesexy released May 1988

Lovesexy tour starts July 1988 - November 1988 / February 1-13, 1989

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Batman released June 20, 1989 Nude tour starts June 1990 - September 1990

Graffiti Bridge released August 1990

Graffiti Bridge released November 1990

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Ingrid Chavez released September 1991

Diamonds & Pearls released October 1991 tour starts April 1992 - July 1992

Symbol album released October 1992

Carmen Electra released February 1993

Act I tour - March - April 1993 Act II July 1993 - September 1993

THE HITS released Sept 1993

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1-800-NEWFUNK released August 1994

Come released August 1994

Black album released November 1994

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Gold Experience tour started March 1995 / August - September 1995

Gold Experience released September 1995

There is a interview with George Clinton where he talks about his thoughts on Prince/WB

Strive said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

Oh please. Most of his tours lasted mere weeks. Other artists tour for months, even years. Ed Sheeran just finished a 2+ years tour of 260 gigs: https://en.wikipedia.org/...C3%B7_Tour . Prince's longest was IIRC the Purple Rain Tour, which lasted six months and comprised about 100 concerts.

Most artists don't live and breath touring the way Prince did. Discounting the rehearsal done before he hit the road, most of the modern routine was long soundcheck, show, watching/critiquing the show, aftershow. (At least until he went to two shows a night) The Musicology tour may not have been 2+ years, 260 gigs but it was a grueling grind of a tour where he was piling on additional dates. But, even if you don't agree with the idea that he was touring like a fiend throughout his life, touring is what paid the bills. That was my point. He could counter his numerous bad business decisions by performing. [Edited 9/9/19 6:50am]

Looking at Ed Sheeran and Prince: through age 28... Ed Sheeran toured on 3 albums '+', ''x", and '/'; Prince toured on 8 different tours: Prince, Rick James, Dirty Mind, Controversy, 1999, Purple Rain, and Parade. He also acted in two movies and directed one. Just for some perspective, since I know you know that. In the 9 years leading up to today, Ed Sheeran performed in 546 shows; Prince: 354 shows, about 65% of Ed Sheeran's number. Plus, Prince was composing for and organizing how many other acts/groups' tours? I guess that doesn't constitute only 'living and breathing' tours, since he was doing all those other things... but they were all under the auspices of Warner Bros, right? How much money did Warner Brothers make from arranging for Sinead O'Connor to get 'Nothing Compares 2U'? Or, how did that work? Probably could find the answer on some other thread!!!

[Edited 9/9/19 13:25pm]

[Edited 9/9/19 13:37pm]

feeluupp said:

Morgaine said:

PeggyO said: Yes, he needed to meet a quota for sales for each album issued under the contract. He was also upset he couldn't use what was in the vault/past recordings. Most of all, he was upset that WB would not give him the masters to past, present, or future recordings. Those, along with wanting to release more music every year was the crux of the dispute.

Like I stated many times, after the commercial success of D&P which to date sold over 7 million, and at the time of the new contract D&P sold over 5 million... D&P commercial success was largely due to the calculated promotion by the new WB PR department and the suggestion that they hire MJ's former manager, Frank Dileo.

It worked very well because it became his second biggest selling album behind Purple Rain. As WB saw the sales figures for D&P selling strong in a year and generation shift where the most popular music was the rise of gangster rap, new jack swing and grundge, Prince still was relevant for that time, especially with sales over 5 million.

The problem is WB was expecting that to be a constant with Prince, the calculated marketing, promotion etc... Low and behold, when he promoted the Love Symbol album in 1992 he went back to his old ways, firing Frank Dileo when Frank and Prince had a disagreement on how the first single should be 7 but he wanted My Name Is Prince instead, Prince started promoting the Love Symbol album "HIS WAY" once again, many Paisley Park specials, and besides the Arsenio Hall performances which was mainstream at the time, his promotion did little to nothing for that album, it didn't surpass the 5 million that WB had required, it sold 2 million world wide, and with that sealed the deal that the contract was no longer practical or logisictal for Prince to maintain those sales of 5 million per album.

and this is why the 1992 contract was a mistake.There should have been a more realistic deal in place.....a more modest deal.Prince wanted to compete with the megadeals that Michael and Madonna signed,but that wasn't the way to go.

..

[Edited 9/9/19 14:05pm]

jdcxc said:

lurker316 said:

I understand Prince's objections to Warner Bros. owning the masters to his music. And I appreciate there were likely other behind the scenes issues that Prince had legitimate complaints about.

But isn't it reasonable to argue that Warner Bros. treated Prince extremely well? In fact, couldn't you argue that they treated him better than they'd treated just about any other artist?

1.) When he was a completely unknown 18-year old novice, they gave him a 3-album contract with complete artistic control. He had a co-producer on this first album, but otherwise the artistic freedom was legit. It was incredibly rare in the '70s for any artists, even established artists, to have true artistic control? Even the Beatles had a producer.

2.) Out of his first three albums he had only one mildly successful Top 40 hit (I Wanna Be Your Lover). Furthermore, he embarrassed the label by getting stage-fright on American Bandstand, and he was booed off the stage when opening for the Rolling Stones. Many labels wouldn't have given him a second contract, but Warner Bros. did. They believed him (partly because of the critical acclaim of Dirty Mind).

3.) Back when vinyl was king, record labels typically allowed only big name artists with built-in fan bases to release double LPs. That's because the cost of production (more material, more packaging, more shipping) was difficult to recoup. Usually labels only took chances on double LPs for artists with a minimum floor for sales. Yet Warner Bros. agreed to let Prince, who at that point still hadn't found commercial success, release the double LP 1999.

4.) Next Prince asks Warner Bros. to help him make a movie. Granted, at that point Prince was a star based on success of 1999, but rock movies rarely did well at the box office. Even the Beatles movies underperformed. So making a rock movie, even one with a hot up-and-comer, was still taking a chance. To make it an even bigger risk, the movie Prince wanted to make wasn't a feel-good movie with an heroic protagonist. Nope. Instead the star of the movie would be a selfish, control-freak, domestic abusing jerk. To make the movie even darker, his dad would commit suicide. The fact that Warner Bros. agreed to this (with the exception of saying that dad needs to live) shows that they were willing to bend over backwards for Prince.

5.) The record industry model was to release new albums from an artist every two or three years, to milk as much money as possible out of their latest release and not over-saturate the market. This was especially true for major hit records -- you didn't want to cut their sales short by releasing a new record and making them seem like old news. Yet despite the Purple Rain album still selling in droves, a mere year later Warner Bros. agreed to Prince's demand to release a new album (Around the World in the Day). An album, mind you, that was likely to alienate much of the casual audience because it went in a new musical direction.

You act as if Prince was a charity case...Pleeze. WB made tons of $ off his music and crazy productivity/work ethic. And his self contained production style was so innovative as a business model that it helped move the industry from big bands to producer driven acts (more profitable). WB shud’ve treated one of their historic premiere talents well. They will continue to reap profits from his catalog FOREVER.

Huh? What the heck are you talking about? What did I right that suggests I'm acting "as if Prince was a charity case..." With all due respect, I think you must have misread or misunderstood what I wrote. Maybe you're reading between the lines something that isn't there. Saying WB treated Prince well is not the same thing as saying they treated him as a charity case. Those two concepts are not the same.

SoulAlive said:

Warners treated Prince very well.Gave him everything that he wanted.They even paid for and allowed him to make the Graffiti Bridge movie compared to many other artists,Prince was spoiled by Warners.He was never a “slave” to the label.

The movie was produced by Arnold Stiefel and Randy Phillips.

https://www.pollstar.com/News/from-prince-to-michael-jackson-to-why-dont-we-randy-phillips-extraordinary-career-134448

"Unfortunately Arnold and I got the honor, or dishonor, of executive producing “Graffiti Bridge.”

Bishop31 said:

barnswallow said:

How much money did Warner Brothers make from arranging for Sinead O'Connor to get 'Nothing Compares 2U'?

.

The nonsensical conspiracy BS you lot come up with is amazing.

Strive said:

But, even if you don't agree with the idea that he was touring like a fiend throughout his life

.

No, THE FACTS don't agree. How much touring did he do in 2014? In 2012? 2010? 2009? 2008? 2005? 2003? 1999?

.

http://www.princevault.co...ur_History

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Do you know what quote I got just now? "...the air's a little thick in this room 2night." I am not nearly as well-informed as the rest of you all. The details you all have command of are amazing. So, I took my chances wading in here.

Actually it was a serious question... if it leads to a conspiracy theory, it wasn't my intent. Didn't Warner Brothers make the song available to Sinead O'Connor without Prince's knowledge/approval? I don't know how that process works, that's all. I assume money would be involved. OK... yeah... I'll go look elsewhere for the answer. I'm sure it's already been written about.

As to Warner Bros. treating Prince extremely well... that seems a reasonable statement, considering the abundance of well-informed points made on this thread. The arrangment in which he had to sell 5 million albums (which Cloudbuster mentioned above) to fulfill the terms of the $100 million contract: "...each album he released had to sell 5 million. Once he realised that he wasn't going to attain that goal (which was straight away with the release of Love Symbol, the first album following the contract) he turned on WB." Did WB know he wouldn't sell that many albums when the contract was written up? That's a type of swindle: setting impossible terms. Why Prince signed it, I have no idea.

Anyway, this is an amazing thread/conversation. You all know your stuff.

BartVanHemelen said:

barnswallow said:

How much money did Warner Brothers make from arranging for Sinead O'Connor to get 'Nothing Compares 2U'?

.

The nonsensical conspiracy BS you lot come up with is amazing.

barnswallow said:

Didn't Warner Brothers make the song available to Sinead O'Connor without Prince's knowledge/approval? I don't know how that process works, that's all.

.

Yet you do have an opinion about it.

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The arrangment in which he had to sell 5 million albums (which Cloudbuster mentioned above) to fulfill the terms of the $100 million contract: "...each album he released had to sell 5 million. Once he realised that he wasn't going to attain that goal (which was straight away with the release of Love Symbol, the first album following the contract) he turned on WB." Did WB know he wouldn't sell that many albums when the contract was written up? That's a type of swindle: setting impossible terms. Why Prince signed it, I have no idea.

.

No, it wasn't a swindle. Prince was a grown-up when he signed it, and Warners didn't hide that provision anywhere. Read https://musicfans.stackex...m/a/89/129 .

[Spambot - luv4u]

ghooos said:

Brings up the quote of Prince Jill Jones posted on twitter, saying, how Prince said if you want to write a hit song, you have to think you are writing to 5 year olds, and hit songs were boring for him.

He could make a hit album or songs with ease, look at all the songs that never were singles that would've been hits and #1 songs, Erotic City, 17 Days, those would have been TOP 5 hits without a doubt.

Problem is like you said, his artistic expression always eclipsed his commercial passion. Yes there were a few instances where his sole priority was to get commercial success for example D&P, EMANCIPATION, RAVE, MUSICOLOGY, it was obvious he was aiming for a commercial target. The 80's after Purple Rain you could see he was just focused on the art and music, he didn't really care about the promotion. It wasn't till after Lovesexy he got the pressure from his label and manager reminding him of the sales for that album, which is why the Batman project was a good recoup from the stale sales of PARADE - LOVESEXY.

jaypotton said:

They say "art and business doesn't mix" I love Prince as an artist as much as anyone who still visits the ORG but he really sucked as a business man. Maybe only a few true artists can also be good at business. What Prince did do was help expose the way many artists are exploited by the industry. He wasn't the first but folks like him and George Michael made it more public and mainstream. Saying all that I think generally WB did actually treat Prince pretty well and made allowances for his excentricities and mercurial nature (Black Album being best example). WB ironically was always known as one of the most artist friendly big labels back in the 70-80s. Prince had a huge ego and he desperately wanted the biggest contract at the time in 92. He saw what Janet Jackson, Madonna and Michael Jackson were getting and said "I want the biggest". Not followed the links Bart posted yet so this is likely covered but just to add to what others have been saying... The $100m deal included a $10m advance for each of his next six albums (making up $60m of the announced $100m contract value) PROVIDING the previous album sold more than 5m copies. So I suspect Prince got his $10m advance for but after that definitely never saw that kind of advance again. What I don't know is whether Prince received ANY advance for subsequent albums (the new deals for TBA and TGE etc would suggest not). The other key thing in the majority of record contracts is that the label are paying an advance against future royalties. They normally also deduct costs (studio time, video production etc) from future royalties. SO while Prince earned $10m for (due to D&P selling over 5m) he most likely never earned another penny from it to this day. Basically an artist has to pay back their advance and costs before they receive any further royalties (eg MJ spending $2m on a video had to be paid back). Clearly if you are a mega artist your royalty rate will be higher and if your sales are high you pay back the advance quicker meaning you start to receive royalties again. Prince's biggest problem from a commercial POV was that he got bored and moved into the next project too quickly. Artists like, for example, U2 undertake promotion and tour behind an album for 2 years (although nowadays that is because they make more money from touring then album sales) to keep the sales coming. Awwww nuts just followed Bart's link - it is all there re 92 contract. Could have saved my typing! Interesting part to me is... "However, Prince would only get this $10 million advance if the previous album has sold at least 5 million copies, i.e. it is an advance on sales, basically an interest-free loan, which would have to be paid back to the record label if sales were low — actually, deducted from royalties on older albums." So WB could recoup their loss on the advance from royalties on other albums. I know Prince signed but that was harsh! Means after D&P Prince possibly earned very little from his entire WB catalog? [Edited 9/11/19 4:54am] [Edited 9/11/19 4:57am] [Edited 9/11/19 5:05am]

jaypotton said:

I think Prince was a strange paradox. Because of Purple Rain he was seen as a megastar and lumped with MJ and Madonna. IMO he was really more of a niche artist who accidentally hit the big time and, it seems, once Prince tasted mega stardom he saw himself that way BUT wanted to still act (artistically) like a niche artist.

You hit the nail on the head there, although I think Prince truly believed that Love Symbol would sell as well as D&P (if not better), I think he should have taken a break after D&P rather than going straight into LS, it's a great album but the general public were just not ready for such a convoluted concept. If he had of taken WB's advice then he would have probably continued to have big albums for the next decade.

I agree with WB being generous and especially with taking the chance on allowing a young artist at that time to have control on their debut album and so on.....

However, it came to a certain point in his life where I think he got fed up with music corporate world and was ready to fight back for what's his and be his own boss (although he was already). Leaving WB, he already had the expertise/PP/tools/resources/finance to continue making music, touring and negotiating deals on his term.

despite how he ended his relationship with WB, I think he has acknowledged that this record label was his gateway to what he became in this lifetime.

0uterageous said:

I agree with WB being generous and especially with taking the chance on allowing a young artist at that time to have control on their debut album and so on.....

However, it came to a certain point in his life where I think he got fed up with music corporate world and was ready to fight back for what's his and be his own boss (although he was already). Leaving WB, he already had the expertise/PP/tools/resources/finance to continue making music, touring and negotiating deals on his term.

despite how he ended his relationship with WB, I think he has acknowledged that this record label was his gateway to what he became in this lifetime.

I think there is a different way he could have done it. Going to an unreal war with WB didn't help.
I mean after her got the masters he went back in fellowship with them in 2013 or 2014.

.

The fact is Prince wasn't the Superstar in the 90s as he was in the 80s. The problem wasn't WB, the issue was the times and artists navigating the scene. It was hard for a lot of great entertainers and artists. RnB singers almost were forced to include a song with a rap on it. Only a few huge artists from the 80s were able to stay on top in the 80s.

feeluupp said:

Brings up the quote of Prince Jill Jones posted on twitter, saying, how Prince said if you want to write a hit song, you have to think you are writing to 5 year olds, and hit songs were boring for him.

He could make a hit album or songs with ease, look at all the songs that never were singles that would've been hits and #1 songs, Erotic City, 17 Days, those would have been TOP 5 hits without a doubt.

.

Except that he didn't have a hit post-1994. Sure, there was the odd blip on the chart, but none of it mattered much. And while his 1980s output got covered a ton, virtually nothing he released afterwards did.