independent and unofficial
Prince fan community site
Tue 25th Jun 2019 12:36pm
Welcome! Sign up or enter username and password to remember me
Forum jump
Forums > Prince: Music and More > ‘Originals’ Album: His Versions of Songs He Gave to Other Artists (EXCLUSIVE) - Part 2
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Page 8 of 28 « First<456789101112>Last »
Reply   New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
Reply #210 posted 06/10/19 8:06am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

Kares said:

databank said:

Thanks for your expertise, the info you bring is also really useful hug

BTW I always meant to ask you: how do you know the pitch on P&AM83 is wrong? I mean I beleive you, I just wonder how you can tell without another version to ompare it with?

.

(Thanks for all you're brining to the table too!)
.
Just to be precise, it's both the pitch and tempo we're talking about as they are naturally linked (and can only be independently manipulated in the digital domain). In short: I can hear it. In the case of P&AM83 the difference is about 16-18 cents (if I remember correctly, I can't check it now) and that is quite noticeable, especially if you're listening to it right after some other piece of music that's in the correct key, or if you try to play along on a (well tuned or digital) piano. You don't have to have the same music in the right key as a reference to compare it to, practically all modern (Western) music uses the same 12 notes and most musicians and studios tune to the same A=440Hz reference. Prince did too, as almost everything he released proves.
.
I know some musicians who prefer to tune to 442 or 443 or 436 or 432 and other references, but those are exceptions and can be a pain to work with, especially when two pianists work in the same studio and one day the piano has to be tuned to 442 and the next day it has to be retuned for the other guy to 443 and the next day back to 440 for someone else etc.... These are real examples.
.
There's no information that I'm aware of that would claim that Prince had his piano tuned to 445 on the day he recorded P&AM so I think we can safely rule that out.
.


Could the speed/pitch problem just be down to the tape player which this session was recorded to?

RIP sad
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #211 posted 06/10/19 8:09am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

Neversin said:

So people will stop orgnoting and mailing:


I did, and am still doing, a comparison of my (fully logged and researched) versions and "Originals" and this is what I concluded for now, enjoy:

This list is not definite and take it FWIW... I'll probably update it when other versions are found so this is by no means a static end-all-be-all conclusion...

But to me this proves that Howe and all the others at Paisley Park are ignorant about his recordings and their bullshit claim of not ever releasing his unfinished material, which they just did... So they could easily just release "Black Is The New Black" as is, warts and all...



1. Sex Shooter - is faded out unnecessarily since the full on "Prince" guide version (which this version is) is just a couple of minutes longer and could have fit easily on the CD; vinyl on the other hand...
Probably why they faded it out, because of some shitty medium for dumb Millennial hipsters who don't even know anything about mastering and parrot the retarded "vinyl sounds warmer" mantra... MASTERING - MEDIUM...

2. Jungle Love - is, for now, the same that has been going around among archivers for decades, so this is seems to be a proper example of Prince's final version of a song for use by other artists...

3. Manic Monday - "Frankenstein" hybrid of added background vocals recorded for the Apollonia 6 version, so this is an already "work-in-progress" unfinished version... They should have released the final full version with Prince's background vocals before he embarked on working on it for Apollonia 6...

4. Noon Rendezvous - The version on "Originals" seems to just be his piano and vocals take, so another "half" release of the song... His full version is the version of Sheila E. with this vocal and piano take and some bass lines removed from the Sheila E. version...

5. Make Up - is exactly the same that has been going around among archivers for decades, so this too seems to be a proper example of Prince's final version of a song for use by other artists...

6. 100 MPH - An edited mess, no clue why they (or maybe even Prince himself?) cut up this song other than that the tape was damaged... The full on version of this exact version is slightly longer with the full intro and would have fit easily on the CD...

7. You're My Love - This is an unnecessarily faded out version of the exact version that was sent to Clare Fisher; he recorded his orchestra and cheesed it up (IMO) and that version was sent to Kenny Rogers... So this is a faded out version of Prince's final version...

8. Holly Rock - This is a mess, too much to list...

9. Baby, You're A Trip - Jill Jones' backing vocal were recorded after Prince's final version (the version that is on bootlegs without Jill) which he considered for one of his own albums... So another "work-in-progress" unfinished version...

10. The Glamorous Life - Heavily edited from the full version and faded out unnecessarily...

11. Gigolo's Get Lonely Too - Faded out unnecessarily, which could have been an epic release if they let it go for the full 10+ minutes...

12. Love.. Thy Will B Done - is exactly the same that has been going around among archivers for decades, so this too is a proper example of Prince's final version of a song for use by other artists...
I think the guitar track was added after Martika did her takes...

13. Dear Michaelangelo - Another "work-in-progress" version... Prince's final full version has a synth playing Eddie M.'s sax lines...

14. Wouldn't You Love To Love Me? - The (unecessarily) faded out 1981/1982 original (not counting his 1976 home studio recorded version...) now the CD would become filled over the rim, so an understandable fade out since it's the most uninteresting... I fully expected the 1987 Michael Jackson/Taja Seville version to be on this disk, not the 1981/1982 version...

15. Nothing Compares 2 U - Discussed ad nauseum, ask Databank for the details I provided him when the 7" dropped last year...

Neversin.

[Edited 6/10/19 3:27am]


Thanks for not quitting this thread, this is all really intersting. I'd love to see if M Howe, or anyone else involved would respond to this. Is it ignorance, errors, not fully curating everything yet, or that this stuff just doesn't exist in the vault as Prince left it?

RIP sad
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #212 posted 06/10/19 8:12am

Bishop31

avatar

I find it sad and troubling that fans in our community are far more knowledgeble about Prince's recordings than the people releasing his music. I'm curious if this is common with other artists. But, for an artist as important as Prince, everything about his current team feels amateur.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #213 posted 06/10/19 8:13am

Kares

avatar

TheEnglishGent said:

Kares said:

.

(Thanks for all you're brining to the table too!)
.
Just to be precise, it's both the pitch and tempo we're talking about as they are naturally linked (and can only be independently manipulated in the digital domain). In short: I can hear it. In the case of P&AM83 the difference is about 16-18 cents (if I remember correctly, I can't check it now) and that is quite noticeable, especially if you're listening to it right after some other piece of music that's in the correct key, or if you try to play along on a (well tuned or digital) piano. You don't have to have the same music in the right key as a reference to compare it to, practically all modern (Western) music uses the same 12 notes and most musicians and studios tune to the same A=440Hz reference. Prince did too, as almost everything he released proves.
.
I know some musicians who prefer to tune to 442 or 443 or 436 or 432 and other references, but those are exceptions and can be a pain to work with, especially when two pianists work in the same studio and one day the piano has to be tuned to 442 and the next day it has to be retuned for the other guy to 443 and the next day back to 440 for someone else etc.... These are real examples.
.
There's no information that I'm aware of that would claim that Prince had his piano tuned to 445 on the day he recorded P&AM so I think we can safely rule that out.
.


Could the speed/pitch problem just be down to the tape player which this session was recorded to?

.
It is due to that indeed. He taped it on a machine (probably some cheap, consumer tape recorder) that wasn't properly calibrated. Now as long as you play back the tape on the same machine, the recording is fine of course. The problem starts when you put it into a different machine, which is what happened here, obviously. Mr Howe & Co. obviously transferred this tape to computer using a properly calibrated professional cassette recorder. Which resulted in playing it back slightly faster (and higher in pitch) than Prince's old recorder would've played it. It is something they should've noticed and corrected, as this would NOT have been manipulation, it would've been a simple case of eliminating a technical glitch.
.

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #214 posted 06/10/19 8:20am

billymeade

avatar

databank said:

billymeade said:

Listening to Originals had me thinking... where's Sheila? Every article has interviews with Jill, Appolonia, Susannah... but Sheila, whose songs make up a big chunk of the album, seems to be completely missing from the press around this.

IDK about that but someone complained earlier that Sheila got author's credit on some of her songs on Tidal. Noon Rendezvous is copyrighted as a Prince/Sheila E composition (and probably is). Holly Rock and everything on Romance 1600 are copyrighted as pure Sheila compositions (save Love Bizarre which is Prince/Sheila), while research revealed that she, in fact, didn't write any of the material. Sheila herself inadvertedly explained why Prince was so generous in her Redbull Academy interview, where she says that she didn't pay attention to her exenses during the PR Tour and was suddenly presented a bill of 100 thousand dollars or so, and panicked. No wonder, then, than Prince gave her his royalties: she was in dire need of money in 1985.

.

Seems only Jill, Appolonia, and Susannah keep getting quoted. Then again, they were probably the ones at the press events; Sheila's touring.

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #215 posted 06/10/19 8:24am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

Kares said:

TheEnglishGent said:


Could the speed/pitch problem just be down to the tape player which this session was recorded to?

.
It is due to that indeed. He taped it on a machine (probably some cheap, consumer tape recorder) that wasn't properly calibrated. Now as long as you play back the tape on the same machine, the recording is fine of course. The problem starts when you put it into a different machine, which is what happened here, obviously. Mr Howe & Co. obviously transferred this tape to computer using a properly calibrated professional cassette recorder. Which resulted in playing it back slightly faster (and higher in pitch) than Prince's old recorder would've played it. It is something they should've noticed and corrected, as this would NOT have been manipulation, it would've been a simple case of eliminating a technical glitch.
.

Thanks, that makes perfect sense.

RIP sad
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #216 posted 06/10/19 8:55am

Revolution81

avatar

billymeade said:

databank said:

IDK about that but someone complained earlier that Sheila got author's credit on some of her songs on Tidal. Noon Rendezvous is copyrighted as a Prince/Sheila E composition (and probably is). Holly Rock and everything on Romance 1600 are copyrighted as pure Sheila compositions (save Love Bizarre which is Prince/Sheila), while research revealed that she, in fact, didn't write any of the material. Sheila herself inadvertedly explained why Prince was so generous in her Redbull Academy interview, where she says that she didn't pay attention to her exenses during the PR Tour and was suddenly presented a bill of 100 thousand dollars or so, and panicked. No wonder, then, than Prince gave her his royalties: she was in dire need of money in 1985.

.

Seems only Jill, Appolonia, and Susannah keep getting quoted. Then again, they were probably the ones at the press events; Sheila's touring.

Jill, Susannah and Appolonia all have backing vocals on various tracks on Originals, how many of the demos for Sheilas songs have her vocals? hmm

My fathers got a shotgun...I hope he doesn't use it
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #217 posted 06/10/19 9:05am

Kares

avatar

databank said:

billymeade said:

Listening to Originals had me thinking... where's Sheila? Every article has interviews with Jill, Appolonia, Susannah... but Sheila, whose songs make up a big chunk of the album, seems to be completely missing from the press around this.

IDK about that but someone complained earlier that Sheila got author's credit on some of her songs on Tidal. Noon Rendezvous is copyrighted as a Prince/Sheila E composition (and probably is). Holly Rock and everything on Romance 1600 are copyrighted as pure Sheila compositions (save Love Bizarre which is Prince/Sheila), while research revealed that she, in fact, didn't write any of the material. Sheila herself inadvertedly explained why Prince was so generous in her Redbull Academy interview, where she says that she didn't pay attention to her exenses during the PR Tour and was suddenly presented a bill of 100 thousand dollars or so, and panicked. No wonder, then, than Prince gave her his royalties: she was in dire need of money in 1985.

.
Thanks for mentioning this, I never really thought of that this way (that Sheila getting so many writing credits were in large part, compensation for her losses on the PR tour), but makes sense – and it paints a very different picture of Prince than just the first part of the story (of Prince ripping Sheila off by charging her for everything on the PR Tour). In retrospect, it seems like a pretty generous compensation, especially when you consider that perhaps Sheila (having been a professional musician longer than Prince) could've been far less naive about who's going to pay for her tour-related expenses.

.

[Edited 6/10/19 9:07am]

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #218 posted 06/10/19 9:12am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

Speaking of the credits on Tidal.. there are several errors on some of the tracks... example on P&M 83 it says Prince wrote "A Case of You" (But it is correct on the One Night Alone...)

Being a die-hard civil rights champion,
Being a die-hard libertarian,
Sometimes I have to defend
that which I find distasteful.
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #219 posted 06/10/19 9:14am

Kares

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Speaking of the credits on Tidal.. there are several errors on some of the tracks... example on P&M 83 it says Prince wrote "A Case of You" (But it is correct on the One Night Alone...)

.
Yep. For 'Love... Thy Will Be Done' they say it was written by Morris Day and Jesse Johnson...

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #220 posted 06/10/19 9:34am

love2thenines2
003

With all these negative points about some trax on Originals.....what can we expect about he future release of 1999 Deluxe ( 1st in term of unreleased material available?) strongly rumoured later this year ?

[Edited 6/10/19 10:25am]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #221 posted 06/10/19 10:00am

TrevorAyer

one obstacle to recreating the effects may be that they don't exist anymore .. prince couldn't get camille right or his linn drum in later years .. he used to add a lot of analog and experimental sounds to his music .. running through guitar pedals and things not meant for what he was doing .. one of the reasons he was such an innovator .. but at whatever point even prince couldn't get "that sound" anymore .. modern equipment just wont cut it

its no wonder that prince fans have more knowledge than prince family or record companies etc .. nobody there has been obsessing over prince like some of the people here .. they are more focussed on viable product .. not so much preserving some old crusty demo with hiss and a wierd mix ..

the mastering on this disk is prettty bad tho as usual .. its got that overblown screwdriver on hit n run feel to it .. this whole louder louder louder mastering thing is really gonna keep ruining a lot of music that does not derserve such stupidity ... another choice motivated by ability to sell in the current market

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #222 posted 06/10/19 10:02am

databank

avatar

Kares said:

databank said:

Fair enough. What I meant is that is there exists a reference mixdown on cassette from that Prince version (and it probably exists), and it does not have the effects, then I don't believe it makes sense to have them. On that particular day, he had not.

.
But we know he had raw mixes made all the time, I can imagine that often the tapes he gave to band members were raw mixes too as generally it is easier to hear the different instrument parts on a dry mix than it is after the effects have been applied. So in my view the existence of a raw mixdown is in no way proof for him preferring that dry mix even just on that particular day, it's simply just how he worked, he worked incredibly fast and often wanted to have a copy immediately after finishing tracking, therefore he didn't want to wait around until a proper mix (with effects) is finished.

.

OK, I see your point and maybe I'm a bit of a purist. It's really not about what Prince preferred in my case, more because I want the thing as it was, but I guess your point is that even if we don't find a rough mixdown in the vault, which probably will happen sooner or later for some tracks, the engineers would then have to make the best of the multitrack to make a mix that tries to represent the kind of mixes liked at the time, effects included, but that it represents more of a technical intervention than a real artistic interference, and that it's therefore OK to do it with any track as long as you don't mess up with content?

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #223 posted 06/10/19 10:38am

Kares

avatar

databank said:

Kares said:

.
But we know he had raw mixes made all the time, I can imagine that often the tapes he gave to band members were raw mixes too as generally it is easier to hear the different instrument parts on a dry mix than it is after the effects have been applied. So in my view the existence of a raw mixdown is in no way proof for him preferring that dry mix even just on that particular day, it's simply just how he worked, he worked incredibly fast and often wanted to have a copy immediately after finishing tracking, therefore he didn't want to wait around until a proper mix (with effects) is finished.

.

OK, I see your point and maybe I'm a bit of a purist. It's really not about what Prince preferred in my case, more because I want the thing as it was, but I guess your point is that even if we don't find a rough mixdown in the vault, which probably will happen sooner or later for some tracks, the engineers would then have to make the best of the multitrack to make a mix that tries to represent the kind of mixes liked at the time, effects included, but that it represents more of a technical intervention than a real artistic interference, and that it's therefore OK to do it with any track as long as you don't mess up with content?

.

Let me put it this way: the process of mixing pop music is, in my opinion, comparable to cooking a meal. What you have on the multitrack tape are the raw ingredients, and when you simply push up all the faders on the desk to do a quick, raw mix, you are just throwing all the ingredients into the cooking pan. Everything's there, it might even taste good already, but seasoning it with effects and cooking it will bring out flavours that the raw ingredients can't provide and it will make the whole mix work as a cohesive unit that can be more than the sum of its parts.
.
So while it is an "artistic interference" as it's clearly not just a technical but a creative process, it is, in most cases, necessary, as that's how records are made.
Of course I would hate to have people brought in to remix and reimagine Prince's music UNLESS it is a totally separate, additional and creative project such as Bill Laswell's remix albums made using Bob Marley and Miles Davis multitracks. Those are excellent but they were marketed as Bill Laswell's creative work.
But I certainly would welcome the engineers who actually worked with Prince to be brought in to mix material in a way that Prince would've liked and approved. We will never be able to be 100% sure about such things, but if it's a track recorded by (let's say) Susan Rogers, I think asking her to mix it now would result in something that is far closer to what Prince would've done than the raw, dry mixes would be. Ideally though, I would release both smile But sadly, that won't happen.
.

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #224 posted 06/10/19 10:51am

databank

avatar

Kares said:

databank said:

OK, I see your point and maybe I'm a bit of a purist. It's really not about what Prince preferred in my case, more because I want the thing as it was, but I guess your point is that even if we don't find a rough mixdown in the vault, which probably will happen sooner or later for some tracks, the engineers would then have to make the best of the multitrack to make a mix that tries to represent the kind of mixes liked at the time, effects included, but that it represents more of a technical intervention than a real artistic interference, and that it's therefore OK to do it with any track as long as you don't mess up with content?

.

Let me put it this way: the process of mixing pop music is, in my opinion, comparable to cooking a meal. What you have on the multitrack tape are the raw ingredients, and when you simply push up all the faders on the desk to do a quick, raw mix, you are just throwing all the ingredients into the cooking pan. Everything's there, it might even taste good already, but seasoning it with effects and cooking it will bring out flavours that the raw ingredients can't provide and it will make the whole mix work as a cohesive unit that can be more than the sum of its parts.
.
So while it is an "artistic interference" as it's clearly not just a technical but a creative process, it is, in most cases, necessary, as that's how records are made. Fair enough. I read ya.
Of course I would hate to have people brought in to remix and reimagine Prince's music UNLESS it is a totally separate, additional and creative project such as Bill Laswell's remix albums made using Bob Marley and Miles Davis multitracks. Those are excellent but they were marketed as Bill Laswell's creative work. Yes, in that case it was clear and interesting. He did a Santana one, too, but I guess you know that already.
But I certainly would welcome the engineers who actually worked with Prince to be brought in to mix material in a way that Prince would've liked and approved. That would be a must, and would need to be done while everyone's alive. We will never be able to be 100% sure about such things, but if it's a track recorded by (let's say) Susan Rogers, I think asking her to mix it now would result in something that is far closer to what Prince would've done than the raw, dry mixes would be. Ideally though, I would release both smile Yeah, me too. But sadly, that won't happen. It could on a NPGMC type of site, but not on iTunes, yeah.
.

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #225 posted 06/10/19 11:03am

donnyenglish

I think that this release proves that Prince's fans are very savvy. I think that we are overall pleased with this release. I also think that there is some legitimate constructive criticism and debate about postumhous production and whether the right versions were included in the release. When they release crap, we speak our minds because they must do better to honor his legacy. When they come correct with a release like this, we show our appreciation and also provide insightful feedback for the future. His vault is too important and too vast for them to release half assed stuff. The discussion about this release is really great.

[Edited 6/10/19 11:04am]

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #226 posted 06/10/19 11:07am

olb99

avatar

databank said:

Kares said:

.
But we know he had raw mixes made all the time, I can imagine that often the tapes he gave to band members were raw mixes too as generally it is easier to hear the different instrument parts on a dry mix than it is after the effects have been applied. So in my view the existence of a raw mixdown is in no way proof for him preferring that dry mix even just on that particular day, it's simply just how he worked, he worked incredibly fast and often wanted to have a copy immediately after finishing tracking, therefore he didn't want to wait around until a proper mix (with effects) is finished.

.

OK, I see your point and maybe I'm a bit of a purist. It's really not about what Prince preferred in my case, more because I want the thing as it was, but I guess your point is that even if we don't find a rough mixdown in the vault, which probably will happen sooner or later for some tracks, the engineers would then have to make the best of the multitrack to make a mix that tries to represent the kind of mixes liked at the time, effects included, but that it represents more of a technical intervention than a real artistic interference, and that it's therefore OK to do it with any track as long as you don't mess up with content?

.

You both have good points. As a fan, I'd like to have both versions. The dry mix for historical/archival reasons. And the mix with effects on the individual tracks, because that's probably what I would listen to the most.

.

Do we have any example of releases for other artists that include multiple mixes of a given track, one dry and the other one with effects?

.

My overall impression is that major record companies just don't care. I have many examples of mixes/remixes full of mistakes in mind (just for Miles Davis, "Bitches Brew", "Agharta", and the 5.1 mix of "Tutu" immediately come to mind). I mean, they can't please everyone and doing extensive archival releases is probably expensive, but it looks like they're not even trying. sad

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #227 posted 06/10/19 11:18am

Kares

avatar

olb99 said:

databank said:

OK, I see your point and maybe I'm a bit of a purist. It's really not about what Prince preferred in my case, more because I want the thing as it was, but I guess your point is that even if we don't find a rough mixdown in the vault, which probably will happen sooner or later for some tracks, the engineers would then have to make the best of the multitrack to make a mix that tries to represent the kind of mixes liked at the time, effects included, but that it represents more of a technical intervention than a real artistic interference, and that it's therefore OK to do it with any track as long as you don't mess up with content?

.

You both have good points. As a fan, I'd like to have both versions. The dry mix for historical/archival reasons. And the mix with effects on the individual tracks, because that's probably what I would listen to the most.

.

Do we have any example of releases for other artists that include multiple mixes of a given track, one dry and the other one with effects?

.

My overall impression is that major record companies just don't care. I have many examples of mixes/remixes full of mistakes in mind (just for Miles Davis, "Bitches Brew", "Agharta", and the 5.1 mix of "Tutu" immediately come to mind). I mean, they can't please everyone and doing extensive archival releases is probably expensive, but it looks like they're not even trying. sad

.

I can't remember any releases with totally dry mixes as well as completed ones, but I'm sure there are some. Just as there are plenty of deluxe editions with different mixes of the same material.

.
Speaking of Miles: you are absolutely right, there are many mistakes on rereleases, but to be honest, Bitches Brew was such a puzzle (I guess Teo Macero must've used almost half as much splicing tape as audio tape on that one! smile ) it's no surprise 1 or 2 elements were left out of the reconstruction... But sadly mistakes, oversights happen all the time and often labels don't even care. I mean how many decades and how many dozen rereleases it took Columbia to correct the speed of Kind of Blue?... smile
.

[Edited 6/10/19 11:26am]

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #228 posted 06/10/19 11:30am

databank

avatar

Kares said:

olb99 said:

.

You both have good points. As a fan, I'd like to have both versions. The dry mix for historical/archival reasons. And the mix with effects on the individual tracks, because that's probably what I would listen to the most.

.

Do we have any example of releases for other artists that include multiple mixes of a given track, one dry and the other one with effects?

.

My overall impression is that major record companies just don't care. I have many examples of mixes/remixes full of mistakes in mind (just for Miles Davis, "Bitches Brew", "Agharta", and the 5.1 mix of "Tutu" immediately come to mind). I mean, they can't please everyone and doing extensive archival releases is probably expensive, but it looks like they're not even trying. sad

.

I can't remember any releases with totally dry mixes as well as completed ones, but I'm sure there are some. Just as there are plenty of deluxe editions with different mixes of the same material.

.
Speaking of Miles: you are absolutely right, there are many mistakes on rereleases, but to be honest, Bitches Brew was such a puzzle (I guess Teo Macero must've used almost half as much splicing tape as audio tape on that one! smile ) it's no surprise 1 or 2 elements were left out of the reconstruction... But sadly mistakes, oversights happen all the time and often labels don't even care. I mean how many decades and how many dozen rereleases it took Columbia to correct the speed of Kind of Blue?... smile
.

[Edited 6/10/19 11:26am]

And that I wonder, given that even though it was an error the whole world felt in love with KOB the way it was and that's all they had for 30 or 40 years, shouldn't that original still be available, too? I always thought it's funny, I'll never hear it the way they heard it in '59 lol

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #229 posted 06/10/19 11:35am

olb99

avatar

Kares said:

olb99 said:

.

Which parts? You can't leave us hanging like that. biggrin

.

Those thick, swirling synth parts (bass, pads and some choir- or strings-type of sounds too) throughout the song. Those are the foundations for the extended parts of Scandalous..

.

And as I'm just listening to the Scandalous Sex Suite again, I'm thinking about how much of Prince's output we took for granted while he was here and how deeply it must've saddened him when a lot of his releases were dismissed – or even ridiculed – by fans and critics alike for being self-indulgent, while he poured his heart into these absolutely stunning works of art. The Scandalous Sex Suite is an incredible masterpiece.

.

[Edited 6/9/19 1:20am]

.

I just listened to the Scandalous Sex Suite again. It's incredible, indeed.

.

About that guitar solo on "The Rapture": it's not the same recording as the guitar track on "Dear Michaelangelo", is it? Maybe I'm tired/deaf. He's definitely playing something similar, hitting the same notes, but it doesn't sound like the same solo (i.e. "Dear Michaelangelo" was an inspiration, but he didn't sample the track).

 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #230 posted 06/10/19 11:38am

Kares

avatar

databank said:

Kares said:

.

I can't remember any releases with totally dry mixes as well as completed ones, but I'm sure there are some. Just as there are plenty of deluxe editions with different mixes of the same material.

.
Speaking of Miles: you are absolutely right, there are many mistakes on rereleases, but to be honest, Bitches Brew was such a puzzle (I guess Teo Macero must've used almost half as much splicing tape as audio tape on that one! smile ) it's no surprise 1 or 2 elements were left out of the reconstruction... But sadly mistakes, oversights happen all the time and often labels don't even care. I mean how many decades and how many dozen rereleases it took Columbia to correct the speed of Kind of Blue?... smile
.

[Edited 6/10/19 11:26am]

And that I wonder, given that even though it was an error the whole world felt in love with KOB the way it was and that's all they had for 30 or 40 years, shouldn't that original still be available, too? I always thought it's funny, I'll never hear it the way they heard it in '59 lol

.
Just get one of those ancient, horrible Dansette or similar record players from the '50s and play your LP on it. The speed will be hit and miss, but that's how people heard it in '59. smile

[Edited 6/10/19 11:54am]

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #231 posted 06/10/19 11:42am

Kares

avatar

olb99 said:

Kares said:

.

Those thick, swirling synth parts (bass, pads and some choir- or strings-type of sounds too) throughout the song. Those are the foundations for the extended parts of Scandalous..

.

And as I'm just listening to the Scandalous Sex Suite again, I'm thinking about how much of Prince's output we took for granted while he was here and how deeply it must've saddened him when a lot of his releases were dismissed – or even ridiculed – by fans and critics alike for being self-indulgent, while he poured his heart into these absolutely stunning works of art. The Scandalous Sex Suite is an incredible masterpiece.

.

[Edited 6/9/19 1:20am]

.

I just listened to the Scandalous Sex Suite again. It's incredible, indeed.

.

About that guitar solo on "The Rapture": it's not the same recording as the guitar track on "Dear Michaelangelo", is it? Maybe I'm tired/deaf. He's definitely playing something similar, hitting the same notes, but it doesn't sound like the same solo (i.e. "Dear Michaelangelo" was an inspiration, but he didn't sample the track).

.

We don't have the full tape of 'Dear Michaelangelo', I'm afraid. At least I don't. And he's added all sorts of effects to the sound (Octaver, Whammy etc). And perhaps he added new parts to it too.

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #232 posted 06/10/19 11:44am

databank

avatar

Kares said:

databank said:

And that I wonder, given that even though it was an error the whole world felt in love with KOB the way it was and that's all they had for 30 or 40 years, shouldn't that original still be available, too? I always thought it's funny, I'll never hear it the way they heard it in '59 lol

.
Just get one of those ancient, horrible Dansette or similar record players from the '50s and play your LP on it. The speed will bit a hit and miss, but that's how people heard it in '59. smile

lol lol lol

Fair enough. Though didn't some audiophiles at least have proper hi-fi at all in '59? My parents bought a killer hi-fi for classical music in 1968 IIRC. I still had the speakers when I moved abroad a decade ago and I hope they survived the attic they've been in since, because they sound so great that I'd love to have them again someday nod

A COMPREHENSIVE PRINCE DISCOGRAPHY (work in progress ^^): https://sites.google.com/...iscog/home
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #233 posted 06/10/19 11:49am

Kares

avatar

databank said:

Kares said:

.
Just get one of those ancient, horrible Dansette or similar record players from the '50s and play your LP on it. The speed will bit a hit and miss, but that's how people heard it in '59. smile

lol lol lol

Fair enough. Though didn't some audiophiles at least have proper hi-fi at all in '59? My parents bought a killer hi-fi for classical music in 1968 IIRC. I still had the speakers when I moved abroad a decade ago and I hope they survived the attic they've been in since, because they sound so great that I'd love to have them again someday nod

.
I would think that it must've been very rare for anyone in '59 to have a decent sound system. Nasty (and often portable) mono turntables with built-in amps and speakers were the norm even in the '60.
.
Hope you'll be able to use your old speakers again but be aware that the cones will probably need re-foaming if they are that old, but it's a fairly simple and safe repair procedure.

.

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #234 posted 06/10/19 11:59am

Kares

avatar

olb99 said:

Kares said:

.

Those thick, swirling synth parts (bass, pads and some choir- or strings-type of sounds too) throughout the song. Those are the foundations for the extended parts of Scandalous..

.

And as I'm just listening to the Scandalous Sex Suite again, I'm thinking about how much of Prince's output we took for granted while he was here and how deeply it must've saddened him when a lot of his releases were dismissed – or even ridiculed – by fans and critics alike for being self-indulgent, while he poured his heart into these absolutely stunning works of art. The Scandalous Sex Suite is an incredible masterpiece.

.

[Edited 6/9/19 1:20am]

.

I just listened to the Scandalous Sex Suite again. It's incredible, indeed.

.

About that guitar solo on "The Rapture": it's not the same recording as the guitar track on "Dear Michaelangelo", is it? Maybe I'm tired/deaf. He's definitely playing something similar, hitting the same notes, but it doesn't sound like the same solo (i.e. "Dear Michaelangelo" was an inspiration, but he didn't sample the track).

.
I just want to say, before the org police comes and clears all my offtopic ramblings that I appreciate your avatar - Aura is such an amazing and underrated album! smile

Friends don't let friends clap on 1 and 3.

The Paisley Park Vault spreadsheet: https://goo.gl/zzWHrU
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #235 posted 06/10/19 12:21pm

AvocadosMax

Sex Shooter — nice to hear his lead voice on this song — 8/10
Jungle Love — Kickass song. 9/10
Manic Monday — classic. Sounds great 9/10
Noon Rendezvous — I don’t get why so many people think this is the greatest song ever. It’s nice to hear his vocals but whatever. 7/10
Make-Up — listening to this as a Prince song while never hearing the Vanity 6 version: WTF lol pretty cool though 7/10
100 MPH — this song kicks. I like it. 7.5/10
You’re My Love — nice to hear him show his range and versatility as a vocalist. Other than that, it’s a generic Prince love slow jam. 6.5/10
Holly Rock — is so cheesy but his voice is just funny lol i like blasting the song but yeah.. pretty corny lyrics and delivery-wise 7/10
Baby, You’re a Trip — you gotta be in the mood for this song. Nice vocals again. 7/10
The Glamorous Life — I can always just listen to the Sheila E. version but....to short! Still 10/10
Gigolos Get Lonely Too — funny song delivered as serious lol 8/10
Love... Thy Will Be Done — atmospheric, nice beat, great lyrics, nice spiritual song. Just missing something that could bring it to a godly level. Maybe a guitar solo? 9/10
Dear Michaelangelo — again WTF. (I know he’s writing it for girls to sing but it’s just funny to hear Prince sing these lines). Music itself is pretty cool. 7/10
Wouldn’t You Love To Love Me? — bad audio. Did they not record it properly or not take care of the master tapes? Hmm. Other than that this is great. Best version of this song for sure. 9.5/10
Nothing Compares 2 U — heard it enough. It’s a hell of a song, but heard this version a billion times already. Still 11/10


Overall: 8/10. As an album...7/10.
Now where’s Black Is The New Black????
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #236 posted 06/10/19 12:24pm

Wolfie87

Neversin said:

So people will stop orgnoting and mailing:


I did, and am still doing, a comparison of my (fully logged and researched) versions and "Originals" and this is what I concluded for now, enjoy:

This list is not definite and take it FWIW... I'll probably update it when other versions are found so this is by no means a static end-all-be-all conclusion...

But to me this proves that Howe and all the others at Paisley Park are ignorant about his recordings and their bullshit claim of not ever releasing his unfinished material, which they just did... So they could easily just release "Black Is The New Black" as is, warts and all...




1. Sex Shooter - is faded out unnecessarily since the full on "Prince" guide version (which this version is) is just a couple of minutes longer and could have fit easily on the CD; vinyl on the other hand...
Probably why they faded it out, because of some shitty medium for dumb Millennial hipsters who don't even know anything about mastering and parrot the retarded "vinyl sounds warmer" mantra... MASTERING - MEDIUM...

2. Jungle Love - is, for now, the same that has been going around among archivers for decades, so this is seems to be a proper example of Prince's final version of a song for use by other artists...

3. Manic Monday - "Frankenstein" hybrid of added background vocals recorded for the Apollonia 6 version, so this is an already "work-in-progress" unfinished version... They should have released the final full version with Prince's background vocals before he embarked on working on it for Apollonia 6...

4. Noon Rendezvous - The version on "Originals" seems to just be his piano and vocals take, so another "half" release of the song... His full version is the version of Sheila E. with this vocal and piano take and some bass lines removed from the Sheila E. version...

5. Make Up - is exactly the same that has been going around among archivers for decades, so this too seems to be a proper example of Prince's final version of a song for use by other artists...

6. 100 MPH - An edited mess, no clue why they (or maybe even Prince himself?) cut up this song other than that the tape was damaged... The full on version of this exact version is slightly longer with the full intro and would have fit easily on the CD...

7. You're My Love - This is an unnecessarily faded out version of the exact version that was sent to Clare Fisher; he recorded his orchestra and cheesed it up (IMO) and that version was sent to Kenny Rogers... So this is a faded out version of Prince's final version...

8. Holly Rock - This is a mess, too much to list...

9. Baby, You're A Trip - Jill Jones' backing vocal were recorded after Prince's final version (the version that is on bootlegs without Jill) which he considered for one of his own albums... So another "work-in-progress" unfinished version...

10. The Glamorous Life - Heavily edited from the full version and faded out unnecessarily...

11. Gigolo's Get Lonely Too - Faded out unnecessarily, which could have been an epic release if they let it go for the full 10+ minutes...

12. Love.. Thy Will B Done - is exactly the same that has been going around among archivers for decades, so this too is a proper example of Prince's final version of a song for use by other artists...
I think the guitar track was added after Martika did her takes...

13. Dear Michaelangelo - Another "work-in-progress" version... Prince's final full version has a synth playing Eddie M.'s sax lines...

14. Wouldn't You Love To Love Me? - The (unecessarily) faded out 1981/1982 original (not counting his 1976 home studio recorded version...) now the CD would become filled over the rim, so an understandable fade out since it's the most uninteresting... I fully expected the 1987 Michael Jackson/Taja Seville version to be on this disk, not the 1981/1982 version...

15. Nothing Compares 2 U - Discussed ad nauseum, ask Databank for the details I provided him when the 7" dropped last year...

Neversin.


[Edited 6/10/19 3:27am]



Is the 1981/1982 of WYLTLM a nice surprise on the set? Or are you, like me, disappointed over the missed opportunity with the 1987 version?
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #237 posted 06/10/19 1:08pm

stillwaiting

rnb said:

Hopefully, this is just a Tidal error and this mistake is not on the actual physical LP/CD! However, if it is then I could see this being another court entanglement case about folks not getting proper points, credits and everybody wanting to get their piece of that purple pie! [Edited 6/7/19 17:44pm]

Honesty, if anyone believes there is this big Purple Pie with cash in it, I wish I shared their optimism. Originals is a nice release, but it's not gonna move a million units, 500,000, or even 200,000. If they get 50,000, they are lucky. Should Sheila or anyone involved try to sue over anything, it would be a small percentage amount of a small amount, not worth the cost to even pay the lawyer's retainer fee.

"If U ever lose some1 dear 2 U, Never say the words they're gone....They'll come back."
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #238 posted 06/10/19 1:33pm

leadline

avatar

Almost all these tracks seem to have a chorus and reverb effect added to the main vocal track, there is no way Prince had this much echo, or any at all, on his voice for these demos when he recorded them, yet this ehco/reverb/chorus is consistent across 10 years of demos on a singular album of demos. No other unlreleased demos that we have have shared this similiarity.

Kinda ticks me off they took the liberty to do this.

[Edited 6/10/19 13:41pm]

"You always get the dream that you deserve, from what you value the most" -Prince 2013
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Reply #239 posted 06/10/19 1:48pm

FragileUnderto
w

avatar

Neversin said:

So people will stop orgnoting and mailing:


I did, and am still doing, a comparison of my (fully logged and researched) versions and "Originals" and this is what I concluded for now, enjoy:




:worship:. Thanks for the Information.👍👍👍
Cant believe my purple psychedelic pimp slap pimp2

And I descend from grace, In arms of undertow
I will take my place, In the great below
 Reply w/quote - E-mail - orgNote - Report post to moderator
Page 8 of 28 « First<456789101112>Last »
Reply   New topic   Printable     (Log in to 'subscribe' to this topic)
« Previous topic  Next topic »
Forums > Prince: Music and More > ‘Originals’ Album: His Versions of Songs He Gave to Other Artists (EXCLUSIVE) - Part 2