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Forums > Prince: Music and More > ‘Originals’ Album: His Versions of Songs He Gave to Other Artists (EXCLUSIVE) - Part 2
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Reply #90 posted 06/08/19 6:33am

Neversin

avatar

Moonbeam said:

Neversin said:


Prince's "original" version has him singing the proper background vocals...

Neversin.

Are there any songs on Originals that you believe are not tampered with.


Yes... If you asked me before these assholes came and annoyed me for providing info I would have posted details in here...
Check you orgnotes in a couple of minutes and don't repost...

Neversin.

O(+>NIИ<+)O

“Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?”

- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
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Reply #91 posted 06/08/19 6:36am

love2thenines2
003

olb99 said:

love2thenines2003 said:

PS> Help to the old Prince.org members.....if u can find these satanics details about WDC shared by Neversin 15 years ago or so !!

HUGE Thanx u !

[Edited 6/8/19 6:12am]

.

There's this thread from 2002: https://prince.org/msg/7/18448

[Edited 6/8/19 6:27am]

And what about this more complex & more produced initial version with other instruments that M.HOWE has discovered in the Vault and Peggy MCcreary has talked about....this is not only the version with bass only ???

PS> Thanx a LOT 2 old99 (is there any other posts about it in the Archives ?)

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Reply #92 posted 06/08/19 6:38am

olb99

avatar

So, I've just read an interview of Michael Howe (in French):

.

http://www.funku.fr/2019/...chael-howe

.

He's saying what he's also been saying in other interviews:

.

"La plupart étaient disponibles sur des bandes analogiques 1/2 pouces et il s’agissait la plupart du temps de rough mixes. D’autres figuraient sur des cassettes, mais certaines d’entre elles n’étaient pas d’assez bonne qualité d’un point de vue sonore. Nous avons donc réalisé un nouveau mix sur des bandes multipistes en nous basant sur les spécifications de la cassette. Au final, l’auditeur peut donc entendre ce qui figurait sur ces cassettes avec un son optimal."

.

So they had rough mixes (stereo) on 1/2-inch tapes and others on audio cassette tapes. Some of the recordings were not good enough (I guess the ones on cassettes), so they took the multitrack tapes and made new stereo mixes, using the existing stereo mixdowns as references ("en nous basant sur les spécifications de la cassette"). What we hear on "Originals" is supposed to be what they heard on the cassettes ("l’auditeur peut donc entendre ce qui figurait sur ces cassettes avec un son optimal.").

.

If we take his word for it, that would mean they found a cassette with Prince's version of "Baby You're a Trip" with Jill Jones doing the background vocals, right? But it doesn't make much sense. Does it?

.

It looks like Michael Howe is lying and/or imprecise. Is he unable to tell what they did exactly because of the Estate? Very frustrating.

[Edited 6/8/19 7:26am]

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Reply #93 posted 06/08/19 6:44am

Neversin

avatar

olb99 said:

love2thenines2003 said:

PS> Help to the old Prince.org members.....if u can find these satanics details about WDC shared by Neversin 15 years ago or so !!

HUGE Thanx u !

[Edited 6/8/19 6:12am]

.

There's this thread from 2002: https://prince.org/msg/7/18448

[Edited 6/8/19 6:27am]


Find the follow up topic on that one with warts and all trolls spamming the fuck out of it and throwing insults at yours truly (and people are surprised why I treat humans the way I do; act like a shithead then I'll treat you like a shithead...)
I wouldn't be surprised if that topic was locked and stashed away forever... If so then too bad...

Neversin.

O(+>NIИ<+)O

“Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?”

- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
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Reply #94 posted 06/08/19 6:45am

Neversin

avatar

olb99 said:

So, I've just read an interview of Michael Howe (in French):

.

http://www.funku.fr/2019/...chael-howe

.

He's saying what he's also been saying in other interviews:

.

"La plupart étaient disponibles sur des bandes analogiques 1/2 pouces et il s’agissait la plupart du temps de rough mixes. D’autres figuraient sur des cassettes, mais certaines d’entre elles n’étaient pas d’assez bonne qualité d’un point de vue sonore. Nous avons donc réalisé un nouveau mix sur des bandes multipistes en nous basant sur les spécifications de la cassette. Au final, l’auditeur peut donc entendre ce qui figurait sur ces cassettes avec un son optimal."

.

So they had rough mixes (stereo) on 1/2-inch tapes and others on audio cassette tapes. Some of the recordings were not good enough (I guess the ones on cassettes), so they took the multitrack tapes and made new stereo mixes, using the existing stereo downmixes as references ("en nous basant sur les spécifications de la cassette"). What we hear on "Originals" is supposed to be what they heard on the cassettes ("l’auditeur peut donc entendre ce qui figurait sur ces cassettes avec un son optimal.").

.

If we take his word for it, that would mean they found a cassette with Prince's version of "Baby You're a Trip" with Jill Jones doing the background vocals, right? But it doesn't make much sense. Does it?

.

It looks like Michael Howe is lying and/or imprecise. Is he unable to tell what they did exactly because of the Estate? Very frustrating.


"Work-in-progress" version...

Neversin.

O(+>NIИ<+)O

“Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?”

- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
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Reply #95 posted 06/08/19 6:47am

Neversin

avatar

love2thenines2003 said:

olb99 said:

.

There's this thread from 2002: https://prince.org/msg/7/18448

[Edited 6/8/19 6:27am]

And what about this more complex & more produced initial version with other instruments that M.HOWE has discovered in the Vault and Peggy MCcreary has talked about....this is not only the version with bass only ???

PS> Thanx a LOT 2 old99 (is there any other posts about it in the Archives ?)


That's "1. Full on version #1 with bass..." and it's horrid, IMO...

Neversin.

O(+>NIИ<+)O

“Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?”

- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
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Reply #96 posted 06/08/19 6:54am

love2thenines2
003

Neversin said:

love2thenines2003 said:

And what about this more complex & more produced initial version with other instruments that M.HOWE has discovered in the Vault and Peggy MCcreary has talked about....this is not only the version with bass only ???

PS> Thanx a LOT 2 old99 (is there any other posts about it in the Archives ?)


That's "1. Full on version #1 with bass..." and it's horrid, IMO...

Neversin.

I thank u....one more....and as databank .....i think that the boys&girls who insulted back in the days are assholes themselves..that's it......ur knowledge of Prince's Music is a must in a good way 4 a lot of us ...but there will be always somewhere assholes ...Right ?....does this mean we are all assholes here ?...don't think so !

have a nice day

[Edited 6/8/19 6:55am]

[Edited 6/8/19 6:55am]

[Edited 6/8/19 7:03am]

[Edited 6/8/19 7:03am]

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Reply #97 posted 06/08/19 7:11am

TrevorAyer

i am enjoying everything on this release except maybe 'you're my love" .. its a good song and most of his delivery is ok but there are a few clunker notes singing and it sounds more like one of his meandering idea sessions than a finished fleshed out demo .. in otherwords .. its a good song but doesn't really fit with this collection .. 'love thy will be done' does not fit either because it comes from such a different era, but it's a great song that I have wanted in great quality for a long time .. maybe it is meant as a teaser for his later years

my feaR is that some of this may be frankensteined via mixing a cassette with prince vocal on it with the backing tracks from the multitrax .. like some say they did with NC2u

according to the french article they tried to recreate the cassette mix from the multitrax .. they don't mention if prince vocal was still on the multitrax or if they had to mix the cassette version in to get prince vocals on there .. there is some muddiness that would suggest this is possible on some tracks

it sounds like neversin has copies of the actual cassette mixes .. not the recreations from the multi trax

it sounds like there may have been some additional embelishments from the multitrax that were not on the cassette mixdowns .. that would explain additional backing vocalists and guitar noodles

i don't mind any mix that comes only from the multitrax .. i would rather the estate did not mix the cassette mix with the multitrax .. i would rather have the cassette mix as is if no other source exists with prince on vocals

i find that a somewhat cronological order works better for me to enjoy these songs .. my guess is they did not want to lead with "you're my love" or "wouldn't u love 2 love me" due to compromised sound quality and peformance .. so we got the mishmash track order

try this .. i call it THE ORIGINAL ORIGINALs MIX

wouldn't u love 2 love me

baby ur a trip

sex shooter

make up

100mph

gigiloos get lonely

jungle love

noon rendezvous

the glamourous life

dear michealangelo

holly rock

manic monday

nothing compares 2u

love thy will be done

i think holly rock sounds like the early version of housequake .. not that the songs are the same just the style he was going for




[Edited 6/8/19 7:17am]

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Reply #98 posted 06/08/19 7:20am

olb99

avatar

Neversin said:

olb99 said:

So, I've just read an interview of Michael Howe (in French):

.

http://www.funku.fr/2019/...chael-howe

.

He's saying what he's also been saying in other interviews:

.

"La plupart étaient disponibles sur des bandes analogiques 1/2 pouces et il s’agissait la plupart du temps de rough mixes. D’autres figuraient sur des cassettes, mais certaines d’entre elles n’étaient pas d’assez bonne qualité d’un point de vue sonore. Nous avons donc réalisé un nouveau mix sur des bandes multipistes en nous basant sur les spécifications de la cassette. Au final, l’auditeur peut donc entendre ce qui figurait sur ces cassettes avec un son optimal."

.

So they had rough mixes (stereo) on 1/2-inch tapes and others on audio cassette tapes. Some of the recordings were not good enough (I guess the ones on cassettes), so they took the multitrack tapes and made new stereo mixes, using the existing stereo mixdowns as references ("en nous basant sur les spécifications de la cassette"). What we hear on "Originals" is supposed to be what they heard on the cassettes ("l’auditeur peut donc entendre ce qui figurait sur ces cassettes avec un son optimal.").

.

If we take his word for it, that would mean they found a cassette with Prince's version of "Baby You're a Trip" with Jill Jones doing the background vocals, right? But it doesn't make much sense. Does it?

.

It looks like Michael Howe is lying and/or imprecise. Is he unable to tell what they did exactly because of the Estate? Very frustrating.


"Work-in-progress" version...

Neversin.

.

Ok, so a "work-in-progress" mixdown with Prince on vocals and Jill Jones on background vocals might have been made during the Jill Jones sessions?

.

But it's less likely for other songs on the album, right (e.g. "Manic Monday")?

[Edited 6/8/19 7:26am]

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Reply #99 posted 06/08/19 7:20am

Dangelus

avatar

TrevorAyer said:

i am enjoying everything on this release except maybe 'you're my love" .. its a good song and most of his delivery is ok but there are a few clunker notes singing and it sounds more like one of his meandering idea sessions than a finished fleshed out demo .. in otherwords .. its a good song but doesn't really fit with this collection .. 'love thy will be done' does not fit either because it comes from such a different era, but it's a great song that I have wanted in great quality for a long time .. maybe it is meant as a teaser for his later years

my feaR is that some of this may be frankensteined via mixing a cassette with prince vocal on it with the backing tracks from the multitrax .. like some say they did with NC2u

according to the french article they tried to recreate the cassette mix from the multitrax .. they don't mention if prince vocal was still on the multitrax or if they had to mix the cassette version in to get prince vocals on there .. there is some muddiness that would suggest this is possible on some tracks

it sounds like neversin has copies of the actual cassette mixes .. not the recreations from the multi trax

it sounds like there may have been some additional embelishments from the multitrax that were not on the cassette mixdowns .. that would explain additional backing vocalists and guitar noodles

i don't mind any mix that comes only from the multitrax .. i would rather the estate did not mix the cassette mix with the multitrax .. i would rather have the cassette mix as is if no other source exists with prince on vocals

i find that a somewhat cronological order works better for me to enjoy these songs .. my guess is they did not want to lead with "you're my love" or "wouldn't u love 2 love me" due to compromised sound quality and peformance .. so we got the mishmash track order

try this .. i call it THE ORIGINAL ORIGINAL MIX

wouldn't u love 2 love me

baby ur a trip

sex shooter

make up

100mph

gigiloos get lonely

jungle love

noon rendezvous

the glamourous life

dear michealangelo

holly rock

manic monday

nothing compares 2u

love thy will be done

i think holly rock sounds like the early version of housequake .. not that the songs are the same just the style he was going for




Again, if nothing else was available (no Prince vocals on the multitracks) then fair enough but be transparent about it.

Heck, I hybridised all the Family tracks with Prince vocals (including NC2U which sounds scarily like the Estate's released version lol) for my personal use because I wanted to hear it but I wouldn't expect a Prince "Family" album release to do this if his demos were available to use.

From the sound of most of the Prince vocals, if they were on cassette only then the quality surely was good enough to give us the original Prince mixdown. My fear is they've messed with it to make it "sound better" or sound more like the released tracks. If so, unessessary meddling.

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Reply #100 posted 06/08/19 7:25am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

olb99 said:

So, I've just read an interview of Michael Howe (in French):

.

http://www.funku.fr/2019/...chael-howe

.

He's saying what he's also been saying in other interviews:

.

"La plupart étaient disponibles sur des bandes analogiques 1/2 pouces et il s’agissait la plupart du temps de rough mixes. D’autres figuraient sur des cassettes, mais certaines d’entre elles n’étaient pas d’assez bonne qualité d’un point de vue sonore. Nous avons donc réalisé un nouveau mix sur des bandes multipistes en nous basant sur les spécifications de la cassette. Au final, l’auditeur peut donc entendre ce qui figurait sur ces cassettes avec un son optimal."

.

So they had rough mixes (stereo) on 1/2-inch tapes and others on audio cassette tapes. Some of the recordings were not good enough (I guess the ones on cassettes), so they took the multitrack tapes and made new stereo mixes, using the existing stereo downmixes as references ("en nous basant sur les spécifications de la cassette"). What we hear on "Originals" is supposed to be what they heard on the cassettes ("l’auditeur peut donc entendre ce qui figurait sur ces cassettes avec un son optimal.").

.

If we take his word for it, that would mean they found a cassette with Prince's version of "Baby You're a Trip" with Jill Jones doing the background vocals, right? But it doesn't make much sense. Does it?

.

It looks like Michael Howe is lying and/or imprecise. Is he unable to tell what they did exactly because of the Estate? Very frustrating.

remember prince has said *recent Arsenio Hall show* that many of the songs are not finished and even many of the bootlegs are not compete. So the fact that someone may have to finish some of them is fine. If that means they have to take the multi-track masters to mix them, fine. I am 100% for this... it is the best source. And it means that thoes are also preserved.


(in the Tudal book it mentions he would often make a cassesset tape of a an early mix to listen to in the car... in other places it has been said he would ofent leave tapes laying aroung in his cars and people would just take them...)


No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #101 posted 06/08/19 8:04am

TheEnglishGent

avatar

Neversin said:

TheEnglishGent said:


I'm certainly interested in more about Manic Monday. I understand that it isn't Prince's first demo, but woulnd't be surprised if this is what exists as the most finished form in the vault. We know Prince dreamed about this song and recorded it after little sleep, which would have been his solo demo. Then if he decided to finish it off as a song for someone else who is female, it would make sense that the backing vocals were recorded with that in mind. It would also seem sensible that he would do this behind his original vocal and in my mind this completely explains the bakcing vocalists singin he/his instead of she/her.

If anyone knows of a Prince version which is complete with the aprropriate backing vocals, then please let us know. Otherwise this seems fine for an album called originals. If it was called demos then that's a different discussion.


Prince's "original" version has him singing the proper background vocals...

Neversin.


Thanks for that. It does raise another question for me. Does that version then even exist any more in the vault? We know Prince sometimes recorded over things. Did he record over his backing vocals with the female vocals? It might be that the original version only exists in the hands of a few lucky collectors. In which case, hounding the estate won't help at all.

RIP sad
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Reply #102 posted 06/08/19 8:09am

udo

avatar

What's the deal with whatever Prince says during the intro of The Glamorous Life?

Pills and thrills and daffodils will kill... If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
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Reply #103 posted 06/08/19 8:12am

udo

avatar

If this `Howe` person cannot discuss 'artistic' choices or any `policy` behind these, then whatever were they doing?

.

(yes, choosing a track with non-Prince backing vocals over Prince's backing voxals for a stereo downmix is such a choice)

Pills and thrills and daffodils will kill... If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
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Reply #104 posted 06/08/19 8:20am

Neversin

avatar

TheEnglishGent said:

Neversin said:


Prince's "original" version has him singing the proper background vocals...

Neversin.


Thanks for that. It does raise another question for me. Does that version then even exist any more in the vault? We know Prince sometimes recorded over things. Did he record over his backing vocals with the female vocals? It might be that the original version only exists in the hands of a few lucky collectors. In which case, hounding the estate won't help at all.


The multi-track of the song with his background vocals, I honestly don't know if he recorded over it but at least one mixdown tape exists in his vault with his finalized solo version...
And if not anymore then yet another reason for The prince Estate to reach out to the fans that researched his career instead of making shit up as they go along, fucking amateurs...

Neversin.

[Edited 6/8/19 8:21am]

O(+>NIИ<+)O

“Is man merely a mistake of God's? Or God merely a mistake of man's?”

- Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
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Reply #105 posted 06/08/19 8:20am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

udo said:

What's the deal with whatever Prince says during the intro of The Glamorous Life?

don't you get me? don't forget me? don't you (something) me?

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #106 posted 06/08/19 8:32am

udo

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

udo said:

What's the deal with whatever Prince says during the intro of The Glamorous Life?

don't you get me? don't forget me? don't you (something) me?

.

Yes, but what is the context here?

Why did he say it?

Why was it left there for this release?

Pills and thrills and daffodils will kill... If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to try to convince you, sorry.
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Reply #107 posted 06/08/19 9:24am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

udo said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

don't you get me? don't forget me? don't you (something) me?

.

Yes, but what is the context here?

Why did he say it?

Why was it left there for this release?

I do not know... it is a bit like him saying something about being nervous or worried at the beginning of Father's Song... but he also did that on one of the Cream? mixes? he said "Is everything oay back there?"

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #108 posted 06/08/19 10:29am

Revolution81

avatar

Theres something said at the beginning of NC2U as well, thats not on any of the bootleg versions or the released family version. In the left channel you can hear something like "right on" or "turn it on"

My fathers got a shotgun...I hope he doesn't use it
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Reply #109 posted 06/08/19 10:38am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

Revolution81 said:

Theres something said at the beginning of NC2U as well, thats not on any of the bootleg versions or the released family version. In the left channel you can hear something like "right on" or "turn it on"

can you give a time? I may need to pull out a better pair of head phones!?

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #110 posted 06/08/19 10:44am

Revolution81

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Revolution81 said:

Theres something said at the beginning of NC2U as well, thats not on any of the bootleg versions or the released family version. In the left channel you can hear something like "right on" or "turn it on"

can you give a time? I may need to pull out a better pair of head phones!?

14 seconds in, and its only in the left channel

My fathers got a shotgun...I hope he doesn't use it
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Reply #111 posted 06/08/19 10:47am

scififilmnerd

avatar

Loving Neversin's comments on Originals, and I agree with him. "Originals" is a misnomer if the tracks are tampered with. And I would much rather hear an "unfinished" demo than a "remix" by some ghost producer. The Estate should be honest about what was done to these tracks, so I'm looking forward to the physical CD to see if there will be any information on the recording of the tracks in the CD cover. smile

Anyway, some of the songs sound genuine, like Noon Rendezvous, Make-Up, Gigolos Get Lonely Too and Love... Thy Will Be Done. Loving those. biggrin

And Duane Tudahl could do another updated edition of his Purple Rain Era Studio Sessions after this release. lol

What I'm really looking forward to and is excited about is 1999 Deluxe. I loved the bonus disc of outtakes on Purple Rain Deluxe. Those tracks had not been tampered with. So I expect the same high standard for 1999 Deluxe. smile

As for Originals... It's all very nice, but nothing truly exciting that makes my heart swell with joy like Purple Rain Deluxe did. Probably because we've heard all of the songs before... And with most of these songs being tampered with or edited, it's like... meh! shrug

[Edited 6/8/19 21:54pm]

rainbow woot! FREE THE 29 MAY 1993 COME CONFIGURATION! woot! rainbow
rainbow woot! FREE THE 1994 CHAOS AND DISORDER CONFIGURATION woot! rainbow
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Reply #112 posted 06/08/19 10:48am

OnlyNDaUsa

avatar

Revolution81 said:

OnlyNDaUsa said:

can you give a time? I may need to pull out a better pair of head phones!?

14 seconds in, and its only in the left channel

I hear something. I can not make out if it is a word or just a mouth noice or a breath or moving the mic a little...

No one is coming for your abortion: they just want common-sense abortion regulations: background checks, waiting periods, lifetime limits, take a class, and a small tax.
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Reply #113 posted 06/08/19 11:07am

Revolution81

avatar

OnlyNDaUsa said:

Revolution81 said:

14 seconds in, and its only in the left channel

I hear something. I can not make out if it is a word or just a mouth noice or a breath or moving the mic a little...

Its definitely somebody saying something. I just find it slightly weird its not on either of the leaked bootlegs or the family version, so where did it come from? Maybe its whoever worked on it for the release last year, telling an engineer to quickly switch on the family multi's "turn it on!" lol

My fathers got a shotgun...I hope he doesn't use it
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Reply #114 posted 06/08/19 11:29am

AvocadosMax

OnlyNDaUsa said:



udo said:


What's the deal with whatever Prince says during the intro of The Glamorous Life?





don't you get me? don't forget me? don't you (something) me?


I heard “don’t trip”
Lol
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Reply #115 posted 06/08/19 11:43am

cb70

scififilmnerd said:

Anyway, some of the songs sound genuine, like Noon Rendezvous, Make-Up and Love... Thy Will Be Done. Loving those. biggrin

I do miss the guitar part in "Love... Thy Will Be Done" that's in one of the boots with his vocal take. Makes you wonder how many different mixes they have of each song.

The "100 MPH" version here sounds over produced with everything but the kitchen sink thrown here. I was hoping for the stripped back boot version with his little chuckle at the beginning.

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Reply #116 posted 06/08/19 12:48pm

TrivialPursuit

avatar

I learned after reading up on stuff that the guitar solo in "Dear Michaelangelo" was reused in "The Rapture" section of The Scandalous Sex Suite.

Here's one fan's review of the album.

This experience will cover courtship, sex, commitment, fetishes, loneliness, vindication, love, and hate.
http://bit.ly/1D3FG2U
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Reply #117 posted 06/08/19 12:59pm

Kares

avatar

olb99 said:

So, I've just read an interview of Michael Howe (in French):

.

http://www.funku.fr/2019/...chael-howe

.

He's saying what he's also been saying in other interviews:

.

"La plupart étaient disponibles sur des bandes analogiques 1/2 pouces et il s’agissait la plupart du temps de rough mixes. D’autres figuraient sur des cassettes, mais certaines d’entre elles n’étaient pas d’assez bonne qualité d’un point de vue sonore. Nous avons donc réalisé un nouveau mix sur des bandes multipistes en nous basant sur les spécifications de la cassette. Au final, l’auditeur peut donc entendre ce qui figurait sur ces cassettes avec un son optimal."

.

So they had rough mixes (stereo) on 1/2-inch tapes and others on audio cassette tapes. Some of the recordings were not good enough (I guess the ones on cassettes), so they took the multitrack tapes and made new stereo mixes, using the existing stereo mixdowns as references ("en nous basant sur les spécifications de la cassette"). What we hear on "Originals" is supposed to be what they heard on the cassettes ("l’auditeur peut donc entendre ce qui figurait sur ces cassettes avec un son optimal.").

.

If we take his word for it, that would mean they found a cassette with Prince's version of "Baby You're a Trip" with Jill Jones doing the background vocals, right? But it doesn't make much sense. Does it?

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It looks like Michael Howe is lying and/or imprecise. Is he unable to tell what they did exactly because of the Estate? Very frustrating.

[Edited 6/8/19 7:26am]

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Mixdown tapes are 1/4", not 1/2".
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And it might have been their intention to recreate mixes that match the mixes they found, but unfortunately several songs on 'Originals' were mixed way too dry (lacking the effects) compared to their released version. 'Make-Up', for example, has a lot more effects on the Vanity 6 album and now we got something that is great, but definitely NOT a faithful reproduction of how Prince intended the song. It is possible that they used a raw mixdown copy as a reference that lacked the effects, but I believe it's safe to assume that Prince's intention for the sound is what we hear on the Vanity 6 release so I would've made the new mix to match that instead.
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I'd like to emphasise thought that I am very happy to have this new release. I LOVE it. Yet, I can't help noticing a LOT of issues with it and I do agree with what Neversin is saying too (just not with his language, sorry.).
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By the way, I'm also happy that at least they went back to the multitrack to remix it instead of just putting out a cassette copy again. But I'd love to know more about where and how exactly this mix was done. And who was called in to do it. Remixing such old recordings is quite a challange if your intention is to faithfully recreate the mix done back then as you'd not only need the same outboard equipment Prince had access to in the early 80s, but (preferably) the original engineer too, who knows what Prince's preferred settings were. And I'm afraid these new mixes are far from being faithful reproducions, not only because they use parts that don't belong together (like Jill's vocals on BYAT), but also because some songs are way too dry, some (Manic Monday especially) have a far too contemporary sound.
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[Edited 6/8/19 13:59pm]

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Reply #118 posted 06/08/19 1:36pm

Kares

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databank said:

So mant replies since I last came yesterday and many things I'd like to reply to but too little time today. Thanks to everyone who provided insights and debated in a civil manner. Originals is now "out there" on the internet and I gave it my first listen. Of course it was an interesting listening experience but for now I'll just stick to a few general comments.

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1/ The Frankenstein situation: I will do my best to investigate, check available info about recording logs and ask a few people I know, and also read the Jill/Susannah interview above in details. I will try to come-up with a detailed report of everything I've found about each track. However Neversin already revealed enough and despite some people's defiance, I will say this: there are some people here who, though being only human and (like myself, of course) not free from making a mistake every once in a while, have provided usueful information to the community without failing year after year. I share with those people a taste for accurate and objective information and research, and I trust their judgement, not blindly, not foolishly, but because so far and as far as I know, they have never been caught making up shit or talking nonsense. Neversin is one of those people, I appreciate his insights and I trust his judgement. I will, nevertheless, try to cross sources and informations to try and come-up with the most accurate results, and explain my reasoning when I do so, as I have with NC2U, so everyone can judge for themselves. Please people before asking again "how can you possibly know...", go back and read the detailed explaination I already posted twice in this thread, and see for yourself.

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2/ The choice of songs/versions. Tinkering aside, I'm down with that, I want everything so in the end whether they release a version or another, as long as it's genuine, I'm happy. I would have done things differently: I would have tried to release the last known Prince version/mix/edit of the track before it was overdubbed by the vocal artist or sent to an artist outside the camp. But that's OK, I'm always happy to have anything. The sequencing certainly doesn't sound anything like a "real" Prince album but if you accept it's just a compilation and not intended as an album, it's OK too, you can always make your own playlist of posthumous songs. I think I'll still prefer the final released versions, in many case I find those "works in progress" versions less dynamic than what Prince finally put out and I think his choices were wise when he finished the tracks, but it's always great to have earlier cuts.

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3/ The sound. Again, putting aside the tinkering and with M. Howe acknowledging, at least, that they had to remix the multitracks based on the cassette mixdowns, I have a few things in mind that bother me a little but there I'd really like to hear what Kares and other people with engineering experience have to say. I think maybe this is more a matter of mastering than mixing, but I find many tracks to sound different from the released versions. I find the overall sound to have more bass and depth, in lack of better words, than the old Prince releases. Those sounded a little flatter and more high pitched, which IMHO made the songs sound more dynamic and agressive (Sex Shooter would be a perfect example: the Originals version sounds much less agressive to me despite being the same). It's particularly obvious to me with Baby, You're A Trip, and even more when it comes to the drums: compare it to the JJ version and it sounds totally different. But it could also be the fact that I have all those songs from the CDs, which are said too have been poorly transfered and sound bad by comparison to the original LP's. So I wouldn't go as far as to say this is all wrong, + I don't have the best stereo, and I'm no audiophile, so feel free to dismiss this whole paragraph, but my impression is that those new mixes/masters do not attempt much to respect Prince's original, sometimes a bit lo-fi, vision. This is not so much a surprise considering how the vocals and strings are mixed differently on NC2U by comparison to the original, unreleased Family version.

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You're right in saying that many of the new mixes sound quite different to the previously released versions. But it's mainly the result of mixing, not mastering. I'm not sure what work-in-progress or raw mixdown tapes they used as references, but the results are surely different and in some cases (especially Manic Monday) sound even a bit disrespectful of the original. (I love MM on the new release, I just don't think it is ethical to change the sound that much.)
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The main issue with the new mixes is that the effects used during the mixing process back when they were mixing the Vanity 6, Sheila E, Apollonia 6 etc tracks are missing and/or are different on these new versions. Some engineers/artists prefer "printing" the effects to tape, in those cases the multitracks end up already having most of the effects so they are very easy to mix – others, like Prince, liked to retain the flexibility for future mixes by only recording dry signals and adding effects only during the mixing process. Both approaches have pros and cons of course. But on some songs of 'Originals' it seems like we ended up with mostly just the dry signal that was found on the multitrack, hence the different sound when compared with the previous releases.

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Another issue is (again...) the tape speeds. 'Sex Shooter' is slightly below, 'Wouldn't You Love To Love Me' is slightly above normal pitch, but some others aren't 100% spot on either.

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[Edited 6/9/19 3:19am]

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Reply #119 posted 06/08/19 2:08pm

jaawwnn

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Neversin said:



OperatingThetan said:


If there is a Prince version with appropriate backing vocals, then let one of these 'elite' collectors share it with us in full (it is only one track) and rest their case. Otherwise, I'm going to continue enjoying what I consider to be a very solid release.


I reckon this is a joke post or some ironic response?
You seriously want random fans to do this for you for free when you should be paying and hounding The prince Estate for it?!
You folks are really something else...

Neversin.


Well we went to the Prince estate and they gave us Originals so yes please, for now we will accept the actual original versions of the tracks off Originals. Always enjoy your posts and thanks in advance.
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Forums > Prince: Music and More > ‘Originals’ Album: His Versions of Songs He Gave to Other Artists (EXCLUSIVE) - Part 2