It is odd to read "he would never have done this!" Well maybe. But then again he left it knowing what would happen... he knew it would come out. When and what and how and by whom... he did not seem to be too worried.

So what he would have done is not even up for debate. Either get it or do not. The better it sales the more we will get. It would be a shame if they sold so poorly that they ended up being auctioned off in lots and with no respect or restrictions.

npgee said:

stillwaiting said:

If Jughead or Purple And Gold did not damage the "Magic" of Prince, than nothing else in The Vault could possibly hurt his reputation. Then again, if there is a Wedding After Feast, than maybe, but even that awful rap song "The P" is not as bad as the above mentioned songs. Jughead has better music, but the presence of Tony M is enough to make it beyond horrible.

Good points.

I tried so hard to like Purple and Gold.

I never played that for anyone, except my wife.

I really hoped his football fight song would be cool, it is not.

Prince was best at doing things without knowing he was doing it. He had no clue When Doves Cry would be the smash it was. He wrote a perfect fight song for the Oklahoma City Thunder with no clue it would sorta become that. He probably had no clue he would get clowned on for the pretend hip hop he was producing. I hope you're still married after playing that song for your wife. My girlfriend has yet to hear it, and Jughead gets skipped on the rare occasion I play the album.

WhisperingDandelions said:

The outtakes, sure, you can argue this or that "intentions" yes and/or no with go-to sources in either direction for days,

But in the case of Originals. Ehhhh, I mean. Forget posthumous, forget his hypothetical perspective from beyond, in life the guy went out of his way to explicitly not release these as "Prince" songs. In the case of these specific songs, I mean, there's no mystery or arguments to make: He didn't want these put out as "Prince" songs, or he would have done so... in fact he did put them out, but (intentionally) as Time songs, Martika songs, Sheila, etc.

Other works, other sets, maybe, but this set and any other "Original Versions" releases like it we should always be aware are 100% against his intentions, whatever that may mean to you and your own ethics of posthumous art.

Prince went out of his way to NOT erase the songs in the Vault

Prince went out of his way to NOT leave instructions on what to do with the Vault

Prince went out of his way to at least twice publicly mention that "somebody will release them after I'm gone."

Prince went out of his way to NOT really give a damn....

I'd love to win a 400 million powerball, and make sure proper care is made in releasing the Vault

material but I wouldn't pay 400 million for it. Maybe 40 million as a gift to the estate and maybe 10 million to legally prevent Londell McMuffin from having any involvment...

But anyone saying everything should stay unreleased wasn't paying attention to what Prince's intentions were...which in regard to the vault was...HE DIDN"T REALLY CARE.

[Edited 6/7/19 12:57pm]

Starlit said:

MattyJam said:

bonatoc said: One of his last TV interviews with Arsenio, he said that most of the material in the Vault would be assembled by someone else not in his lifetime. He knew what was going to happen.

On The View in 2012, when asked if he was ever going to release the songs kept in the Vault, he replied : "One day someone will release them. I don't know that I'll get to release them."

That's the link I posted

prince was a smart man, he knew how things worked, when a star dies, if there is a market for them, stuff will be milked as long as it exists. If he felt so strongly about it never being heard he would have had it all burned by an order in a will. Stevie, so i've heard, wants his stuff destroyed, why? I don't know, it would probably have to do with knowing anything he's recorded that won't add or equal what's already been released would cheat the fans. I mean, MJ had totally fake tracks released, not good ones and they sold. If the quality is there then I want it as a fan, simple as that. John Lennon/Bob Marley both had some great songs that came out after they died, but we can't pretend that these motherfuckers in the business will find a way to throw out any scrap they can for a buck, that's just the way capitalism works.

Starlit said:

MattyJam said:

bonatoc said: One of his last TV interviews with Arsenio, he said that most of the material in the Vault would be assembled by someone else not in his lifetime. He knew what was going to happen.

On The View in 2012, when asked if he was ever going to release the songs kept in the Vault, he replied : "One day someone will release them. I don't know that I'll get to release them."

At the time, he couldn't release them (at least the older stuff)--he hadn't come to any agreement with Warner Bros. about material recorded during his time with them, and when and if he would be able to release things was up in the air. As to the more recent--it wasn't vault stuff in the same way. It was still kind of on the burner, so to speak. He might drop back and pull something out--but that stuff from the eighties he didn't have access to (legally), unless he was going to re-record stuff. At least, that was one way things might work out, so he didn't try it (after the Crystal Ball release).

Electrostar said:

stillwaiting said:

If Jughead or Purple And Gold did not damage the "Magic" of Prince, than nothing else in The Vault could possibly hurt his reputation. Then again, if there is a Wedding After Feast, than maybe, but even that awful rap song "The P" is not as bad as the above mentioned songs. Jughead has better music, but the presence of Tony M is enough to make it beyond horrible.

I'm sure when Prince recorded feast he wasn't thinking in his own mind, my fans will laugh at this. He was doing what he always did, doing the unexpected. Sometimes people call you genius for that. Sometimes they label you s failure. As for Jughead and Gold, I love them both. Art is do subjective! The Gold Experience is currently one of my favourite albums alongside Lovesexy. Flows so nicely with great guitar work. Some songs are made for radio, and Gold is that. All my non Prince fans sing along to it when it's on. Prince even thought GB wss quality! That's art. Let the artist decide what you see and what you don't.

The original reference was to "Purple and Gold"--the thing he gave to the Minnesota Vikings.

BartVanHemelen said:

MattyJam said:

We all knew that Prince didn't care to look back creatively and until his dying day he was always forging forward, focused on his next creative project.

.

His concerts consisted for 80% and more of 1980s tracks, while utterly ignoring the album he was supposed to promote.

That was to meet audience expectations though, surely? He didn't play a single known song during my first Prince gig (Gold Experience Tour, London), covers aside. It was the subject of a fair amount of criticism in the press at the time.

As for the morality issue, Prince was fully aware of the cultural interest in the Vault - he'd be a fool to believe that it wouldn't see the light of day eventually (which he wasn't). Indeed, I must say that I feared for the more explicit contents of the vault in later years - a lot of door-knocking necessary to make up for some of that s@!t.

W.r.t. the ethics:
Let them do what they want to do with the vault tapes, but let them be open about it:

have them describe every edit, every track added/omitted from the mix, every reconstruction, etc, in the booklet, in the liner notes.

NouveauDance said:

The fact is the owners of his work now get to choose what to do with them. Prince created them, but he's no longer here to make those decisions. Prince is an important artist in the canon of 20th century popular music and just like finding a scene from a lost Shakespeare play, or an alternative version of chapter 12 of a Charles Dicken's book - everything is interesting to those who enjoy their work and it forms part of their legacy in popular culture in general. So even if Prince never intended for a certain song or demo to be heard, it's not his choice any more and squirreling those things away does not benefit his legacy.

.

His canon of work is finished, but there is much still to be heard and filling in the gaps makes his 'official' work all the more interesting and colourful. Seeing what Prince distilled down to the work he did put out is fascinating, wondering why one thing was released but another not. Hearing him work out ideas, grooves and songs that would form part of albums not released for years later or completely abandoned altogether as his attention was grabbed by a newer whim. Alternative versions, work-in-progress projects, it's all of interest and all important to his vision.

Prince held back music specifically because he felt audiences weren't ready, or to be released after he died. He talked about it.

These aren't just lesser unfinished songs that were never supposed to see the light of day. The downside is Prince didn't know how to self edit and separate the material that was just a sketch, or outright bad and shouldn't be heard by audiences...he even put some of it on albums.

BartVanHemelen said:

MattyJam said:

We all knew that Prince didn't care to look back creatively and until his dying day he was always forging forward, focused on his next creative project.

.

His concerts consisted for 80% and more of 1980s tracks, while utterly ignoring the album he was supposed to promote.

Yes, because more than half of the fans came specifially for those songs. The exception was the rainbow children tour, where he played much smaller arenas.

Genesia said:

NouveauDance said:

The fact is the owners of his work now get to choose what to do with them. Prince created them, but he's no longer here to make those decisions. Prince is an important artist in the canon of 20th century popular music and just like finding a scene from a lost Shakespeare play, or an alternative version of chapter 12 of a Charles Dicken's book - everything is interesting to those who enjoy their work and it forms part of their legacy in popular culture in general. So even if Prince never intended for a certain song or demo to be heard, it's not his choice any more and squirreling those things away does not benefit his legacy.

.

His canon of work is finished, but there is much still to be heard and filling in the gaps makes his 'official' work all the more interesting and colourful. Seeing what Prince distilled down to the work he did put out is fascinating, wondering why one thing was released but another not. Hearing him work out ideas, grooves and songs that would form part of albums not released for years later or completely abandoned altogether as his attention was grabbed by a newer whim. Alternative versions, work-in-progress projects, it's all of interest and all important to his vision.

Beautifully put - which means the mix and edit tinkering being reported about the Originals project is a little concerning. Hearing an unsullied version of a song helping to fill a gap in the story is one thing, hearing augmented versions is another.

It should all be released. Every single track. Every single recorded concer, every single video. How is it ethical for anyone to think they have the authority to supress recorded music from a legendary musician like Prince?

lavendardrummachine said:

Prince held back music specifically because he felt audiences weren't ready, or to be released after he died. He talked about it.

These aren't just lesser unfinished songs that were never supposed to see the light of day. The downside is Prince didn't know how to self edit and separate the material that was just a sketch, or outright bad and shouldn't be heard by audiences...he even put some of it on albums.

I dont believe that for a second. I know he said it, but dont get it twisted, he released and promoted what he thought had the best chance to get him back on top.

Meh, who cares at the end of the day?

It's all good so long as we don't get Prince songs being used to sell Captain Crunch, Corvettes, Trojans, Soy Milk and shit like that. Prince certainly isn't going to complain but I'd draw the line at lending his stuff to Madison Avenue and cheesing the entire thing up if it were left up to me.

Except it's not.

I personally have always maintained that Prince half way shit the bed on releasing stuff and could have cultivated a lot of fruit from his incredibly dedicated hardcore fanbase by making outtakes and live shows available for sale directly through him (and us) like other bands managed to do and in a way that he could have monetized while also cutting the legs out from under bootleggers, but he obviously didn't see it that way.

Speaking of other bands, the Beastie Boys' Adam Yauch had it in his WILL that NONE of the Beastie Boys' material could ever be used in a commercial or to push commercial bullshit so good on him. But Prince apparently didn't leave a will and, knowing how he rolled, likely just "left it all up to God" in the event of his passing and probably never thought too much about it beyond feeling like he was going to a better place and that where we are now is all just a dream of some such thing.

Also, sadly, he never had a child to leave any of it to directly. If he was that concerened about it, I tend to think that he would have made arrangements ahead of time. Then again, I highly doubt he thought that 57 was where it would end either so...

It is what it is.

He lived in the moment and we should probably do the same.

...

None of us can do anything about it so I'll take whatever I can wrap my ears (or eyes) around knowing that nothing truly new is coming and that I'll never get to see him play again but that there's a ton of stuff I'd love to see and hear, no matter it fins its way to me. His worst day was better than most people's best, near as I can ascertian. If they start bullshitting around with selling potato chips and shit designed to fly off Wal Mart shelves, I'll boycott the brand(s) but for now bring it on and let me hear it.

I don't particularly care who makes money off of it and now it's up to someone else to determine the moral boundaries of what constitutes good taste, for good or for ill. If that turns out to be his immediate family or a bunch of blood sucking lawyers and record executives, what am I gonna do about it?

He's gone.

But he left a lot behind.

SimonCharles said:

Genesia said:

SimonCharles said:

Beautifully put - which means the mix and edit tinkering being reported about the Originals project is a little concerning. Hearing an unsullied version of a song helping to fill a gap in the story is one thing, hearing augmented versions is another.

I can honestly say I don’t care about any of that. If I weren’t on this site, I wouldn’t even KNOW what had been done to the tracks - just like I didn’t know how Prince put them together when he was alive. I am not an engineer or an audiophile, so that level of scrutiny is beyond me. What matters to me now is what always mattered - how the music makes me feel. And listening to Originals, I had a deep emotional reaction - joy, awe, sadness, yearning - all the things Prince’s music has always made me feel. That makes it more than worth the price of admission.

A beautifully put argument. I shall see how I feel in a couple of weeks time.

SimonCharles said:

Genesia said:

SimonCharles said: I can honestly say I don’t care about any of that. If I weren’t on this site, I wouldn’t even KNOW what had been done to the tracks - just like I didn’t know how Prince put them together when he was alive. I am not an engineer or an audiophile, so that level of scrutiny is beyond me. What matters to me now is what always mattered - how the music makes me feel. And listening to Originals, I had a deep emotional reaction - joy, awe, sadness, yearning - all the things Prince’s music has always made me feel. That makes it more than worth the price of admission.

A beautifully put argument. I shall see how I feel in a couple of weeks time.

My only caveat would be - include the names on the credits so we know.

SimonCharles said:

SimonCharles said:

A beautifully put argument. I shall see how I feel in a couple of weeks time.

My only caveat would be - include the names on the credits so we know.

Totally agree about proper and correct credits. I always like to know that stuff.

Genesia said:

SimonCharles said:

My only caveat would be - include the names on the credits so we know.

Totally agree about proper and correct credits. I always like to know that stuff.

The simple solution is to release two versions: a single disc and a double disc. The single disc has whatever the estate feels they need to do to the music to make it sell. The double disc has that version plus a second disc of the untouched tracks. Kinda like MJ's posthumous Xscape.

AhPook said:

Genesia said:

Totally agree about proper and correct credits. I always like to know that stuff.

The simple solution is to release two versions: a single disc and a double disc. The single disc has whatever the estate feels they need to do to the music to make it sell. The double disc has that version plus a second disc of the untouched tracks. Kinda like MJ's posthumous Xscape.

Why pander to people who will never be satisfied, anyway?

stillwaiting said:

npgee said:

Good points.

I tried so hard to like Purple and Gold.

I never played that for anyone, except my wife.

I really hoped his football fight song would be cool, it is not.

Prince was best at doing things without knowing he was doing it. He had no clue When Doves Cry would be the smash it was. He wrote a perfect fight song for the Oklahoma City Thunder with no clue it would sorta become that. He probably had no clue he would get clowned on for the pretend hip hop he was producing. I hope you're still married after playing that song for your wife. My girlfriend has yet to hear it, and Jughead gets skipped on the rare occasion I play the album.

Probably wrong given that it was pretty rare for him to spend so much time on it.
Also, Peggy McCreary and otherengineers, as stated in Duane Tudahl's PR Sessions book and in previous Susan Rogers interviews, mention that Prince "was ecstatic when he finished it. He knew that was it".

Given PR is the album Prince worked on the longer, he sure had a clue that it would at least work very well. Keep in mind the 1999 (and LRC as a single) pre-effect. He was not dumb.

Electrostar said:

stillwaiting said:

If Jughead or Purple And Gold did not damage the "Magic" of Prince, than nothing else in The Vault could possibly hurt his reputation. Then again, if there is a Wedding After Feast, than maybe, but even that awful rap song "The P" is not as bad as the above mentioned songs. Jughead has better music, but the presence of Tony M is enough to make it beyond horrible.

I'm sure when Prince recorded feast he wasn't thinking in his own mind, my fans will laugh at this. He was doing what he always did, doing the unexpected. Sometimes people call you genius for that. Sometimes they label you s failure. As for Jughead and Gold, I love them both. Art is do subjective! The Gold Experience is currently one of my favourite albums alongside Lovesexy.

Uh, I said "Purple And Gold." Not The Gold Experience. And loving Jughead is YOUR problem. Just kidding. I'm glad I can't stand Jughead, and wish it was an instrumental

stillwaiting said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

The outtakes, sure, you can argue this or that "intentions" yes and/or no with go-to sources in either direction for days,

But in the case of Originals. Ehhhh, I mean. Forget posthumous, forget his hypothetical perspective from beyond, in life the guy went out of his way to explicitly not release these as "Prince" songs. In the case of these specific songs, I mean, there's no mystery or arguments to make: He didn't want these put out as "Prince" songs, or he would have done so... in fact he did put them out, but (intentionally) as Time songs, Martika songs, Sheila, etc.

Other works, other sets, maybe, but this set and any other "Original Versions" releases like it we should always be aware are 100% against his intentions, whatever that may mean to you and your own ethics of posthumous art.

Prince went out of his way to NOT erase the songs in the Vault

Prince went out of his way to NOT leave instructions on what to do with the Vault

Prince went out of his way to at least twice publicly mention that "somebody will release them after I'm gone."

Prince went out of his way to NOT really give a damn....

I'd love to win a 400 million powerball, and make sure proper care is made in releasing the Vault

material but I wouldn't pay 400 million for it. Maybe 40 million as a gift to the estate and maybe 10 million to legally prevent Londell McMuffin from having any involvment...

But anyone saying everything should stay unreleased wasn't paying attention to what Prince's intentions were...which in regard to the vault was...HE DIDN"T REALLY CARE.

[Edited 6/7/19 12:57pm]

Well... I mean he WAS pre-occupied though dying and all so...

funksterr said:

stillwaiting said:

Prince went out of his way to NOT erase the songs in the Vault

Prince went out of his way to NOT leave instructions on what to do with the Vault

Prince went out of his way to at least twice publicly mention that "somebody will release them after I'm gone."

Prince went out of his way to NOT really give a damn....

I'd love to win a 400 million powerball, and make sure proper care is made in releasing the Vault

material but I wouldn't pay 400 million for it. Maybe 40 million as a gift to the estate and maybe 10 million to legally prevent Londell McMuffin from having any involvment...

But anyone saying everything should stay unreleased wasn't paying attention to what Prince's intentions were...which in regard to the vault was...HE DIDN"T REALLY CARE.

[Edited 6/7/19 12:57pm]

Well... I mean he WAS pre-occupied though dying and all so...

I don't think Prince purposely intended for these songs to NOT be "Prince" songs. I wouldn't phrase it that way. He just literally had ideas for songs flowing out of him at the time. The satellite projects were his outlet. I do think that a lot of these songs were actually created for other people, though.

If you combine stuff he was doing for Vanity/Apollonia 6, The Time, and Sheila E., there's no way he could've released them as "Prince" even if he wanted to!

If WB had allowed 2-3 "Prince" albums a year (which later became one of his biggest complaints against them) then I have no doubt you would've heard many of these released by Prince himself. He wouldn't have needed as many satellite projects as outlets.

Notice that later in life (1990s and 2000s) as he probably slowed down a bit in songwriting and also gained his freedom from WB, the side projects dwindled. He didn't need those outlets.

funksterr said:

stillwaiting said:

Prince went out of his way to NOT erase the songs in the Vault

Prince went out of his way to NOT leave instructions on what to do with the Vault

Prince went out of his way to at least twice publicly mention that "somebody will release them after I'm gone."

Prince went out of his way to NOT really give a damn....

I'd love to win a 400 million powerball, and make sure proper care is made in releasing the Vault

material but I wouldn't pay 400 million for it. Maybe 40 million as a gift to the estate and maybe 10 million to legally prevent Londell McMuffin from having any involvment...

But anyone saying everything should stay unreleased wasn't paying attention to what Prince's intentions were...which in regard to the vault was...HE DIDN"T REALLY CARE.

[Edited 6/7/19 12:57pm]

Well... I mean he WAS pre-occupied though dying and all so...

We are all spending our lives dying. Prince appeared to be alive enough to mention the vault in interviews with a care free attitude. If he was worried about what was done to the recordings, he would have done something. It's just comical to me that anyone without serious mental problems think Prince was preoccupied with the fate of the vault. Some of the tapes were found rotting, he did not live in the past in his studio creations. Now live, he lived in the past, but that's another discussion. Way way way before Prince was in the clutches of addiction, he could have made all kinds of rules for the vault, but he did not care to.

herb4 said:

Then again, I highly doubt he thought that 57 was where it would end either so...

.

He almost died in 1996.

.

Bowie had a heart attack on stage and drastically revised his life from then on. In the years before his death he (obviously) set up a lot of projects which are continuing to roll on. Notice the complete lack of drama WRT his legacy. But Bowie's response to adversities wasn't denial, whereas Prince...

stillwaiting said:

funksterr said:

Well... I mean he WAS pre-occupied though dying and all so...

We are all spending our lives dying. Prince appeared to be alive enough to mention the vault in interviews with a care free attitude. If he was worried about what was done to the recordings, he would have done something. It's just comical to me that anyone without serious mental problems think Prince was preoccupied with the fate of the vault. Some of the tapes were found rotting, he did not live in the past in his studio creations. Now live, he lived in the past, but that's another discussion. Way way way before Prince was in the clutches of addiction, he could have made all kinds of rules for the vault, but he did not care to.

Nah.. he was actively making plans as late as 2012/2013/2014 with me about the future of the vault. He ended up piggybacking that plan into what became AOA and the Tidal deal. Not sure what ever happened to the vault plan, but he told me he had done something about it and not to worry.

[Edited 6/16/19 0:13am]