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Thread started 06/06/19 8:28am

BartVanHemelen

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"The ethics of posthumous releases"

https://www.thenational.a...s-1.871130

.

When an artist dies, what should happen to the art they leave behind? Should the unfinished ideas, rejected scraps and half-­realised works-in-progress be left unfinished? It’s an unresolved debate that veers back into focus this weekend, as two of the world’s most famous musicians unveil fresh albums from beyond the grave.

.

Thursday marked the release of Tim, the first posthumous collection from Avicii (real name Tim Bergling), the EDM superstar who died in Oman last year. On Friday, there will be a major drop from Prince as his unreleased archives golive as a record entitled Originals. Both works will be pored over by critics and lapped up by fans, shedding fresh light on the creative process and spawning theories about the artists’ intent and state of mind.

.

Click the link for the full article (which actually doesn't offer that much insight and is mostly a long list of posthumous projects of all kinds).

.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #1 posted 06/06/19 9:08am

MattyJam

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I think Prince is kind of an exception to the rule on this, seeing as the quantity of his outtakes by far outweigh his released material and that he specifically intended for a lot of this stuff to see the light of day posthumously.
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Reply #2 posted 06/06/19 10:46am

Se7en

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I don't mind Originals coming out. I think it will be fun for the outside world to hear most of these (we've heard most of them in decent quality already).

I don't mind that Moonbeam Levels was sourced from either a bootleg or a cassette. I don't mind that NC2U was a hybrid mix.

The only thing I can really say didn't pass the test is releasing We Can Fuck on Purple Rain Deluxe. Prince would not have released anything with profanities. Ethically, that's the one that stands out to me as a "no".


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Reply #3 posted 06/06/19 11:06am

bonatoc

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MattyJam said:

I think Prince is kind of an exception to the rule on this, seeing as the quantity of his outtakes by far outweigh his released material and that he specifically intended for a lot of this stuff to see the light of day posthumously.


Just your imagination.
If not, please point to the source/quote.


The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #4 posted 06/06/19 11:11am

MattyJam

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bonatoc said:



MattyJam said:


I think Prince is kind of an exception to the rule on this, seeing as the quantity of his outtakes by far outweigh his released material and that he specifically intended for a lot of this stuff to see the light of day posthumously.


Just your imagination.
If not, please point to the source/quote.





One of his last TV interviews with Arsenio, he said that most of the material in the Vault would be assembled by someone else not in his lifetime. He knew what was going to happen.
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Reply #5 posted 06/06/19 11:19am

bonatoc

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It's really borderline with Prince, as he intended to put out Roadhouse Garden, Camille and Crystal Ball, TBA, the Dawn and possibly a few others sequenced, mastered and ready to press albums.

Only WB prevented him to do so.

So the statement "unfinished ideas, rejected scraps and half-­realised works-in-progress" doesn't apply to Prince, as much of the vault material is mixed and ready to go to mastering (if not "mastered" already in PP). Which is precisely what makes the Vault stand out.

The Beatles Anthology didn't propose anything new, just alternate takes and false starts. Michael Jackson Thriller's outtakes are unlistenable early eighties crap for the finished ones, and demos which sound very much like so.

Prince's work does stand out as being made mostly of full-fledged productions. In the case of The Originals, a song may not have the best lead vocal but just a guide, but everything underneath very often landed as is on the final release.


The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #6 posted 06/06/19 11:25am

Dangelus

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I have no problem with recorded material seeing the light of day.

When Prince was alive he had control of his work, what came out, how and where. Nobody could despute his absolute right to do this.

Prince is no longer with us, he had indicated that his work would likely get released after his death.

I'm not saying he wanted this to happen but it's likely he just didn't care. If he had stroing feelings on the matter it is likely he would have taken steps to prevent it.

I don't feel anybody is dishonouring him by releasing this stuff.

I would draw the line and publishing personal stuff like letters etc. Stuff that was private in that sense should remain so.

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Reply #7 posted 06/06/19 11:26am

bonatoc

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MattyJam said:

bonatoc said:


Just your imagination.
If not, please point to the source/quote.


One of his last TV interviews with Arsenio, he said that most of the material in the Vault would be assembled by someone else not in his lifetime. He knew what was going to happen.


I'm aware of the quote, and a few others related,
and there was some "I dunno" and "maybe" IIRC.
You can't call that a "specific intent".
It's quite the opposite.

As for "he knew what was going to happen", you're either implying he knew he had very few time to live, which is conjecture, or considering final a statement from someone who changed his mind as often as he changed shoes.

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #8 posted 06/06/19 11:35am

bonatoc

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Dangelus said:

I have no problem with recorded material seeing the light of day.

When Prince was alive he had control of his work, what came out, how and where. Nobody could despute his absolute right to do this.

Prince is no longer with us, he had indicated that his work would likely get released after his death.

I'm not saying he wanted this to happen but it's likely he just didn't care. If he had stroing feelings on the matter it is likely he would have taken steps to prevent it.

I don't feel anybody is dishonouring him by releasing this stuff.

I would draw the line and publishing personal stuff like letters etc. Stuff that was private in that sense should remain so.


I stick to the theory that he started it. Some can scream "Blue Monday" all they want, but "Superfunkycalifragisexy" and "Bob George" played live as early of '88 is proof that he understood the mystique the bootlegs would bring to his career.
Don't buy the Black Album my ass, he's promoting it!

Then later on he changed his mind (as always) because he realized how much money was escaping his pockets, hence the Sheriff.

And then he changes his mind again (the Ahdio shows).

"Empty Room" in the latter years is a good example of this dichotomy. In the Montreux adiences, the crowd reacts to it, and he hears it, and everyone in the room know what it's all about: a unreleased track from the Vault.

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #9 posted 06/06/19 11:39am

MattyJam

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bonatoc said:



MattyJam said:


bonatoc said:



Just your imagination.
If not, please point to the source/quote.




One of his last TV interviews with Arsenio, he said that most of the material in the Vault would be assembled by someone else not in his lifetime. He knew what was going to happen.


I'm aware of the quote, and a few others related,
and there was some "I dunno" and "maybe" IIRC.
You can't call that a "specific intent".
It's quite the opposite.

As for "he knew what was going to happen", you're either implying he knew he had very few time to live, which is conjecture, or considering final a statement from someone who changed his mind as often as he changed shoes.




We all knew that Prince didn't care to look back creatively and until his dying day he was always forging forward, focused on his next creative project. Prince wasn't stupid, why would he stockpile all of those songs in a big-ass vault if he didn't intend for it to be used for something? He made a comment referring to other people being the ones to sort through that stuff in one of his final interviews, and, I have never seen or read any contradictory quotes which would imply he was against this.

You seem to just get off on being a contrarian.
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Reply #10 posted 06/06/19 11:53am

BartVanHemelen

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MattyJam said:


We all knew that Prince didn't care to look back creatively and until his dying day he was always forging forward, focused on his next creative project.

.

His concerts consisted for 80% and more of 1980s tracks, while utterly ignoring the album he was supposed to promote.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #11 posted 06/06/19 11:59am

SimonCharles

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BartVanHemelen said:

MattyJam said:


We all knew that Prince didn't care to look back creatively and until his dying day he was always forging forward, focused on his next creative project.

.

His concerts consisted for 80% and more of 1980s tracks, while utterly ignoring the album he was supposed to promote.

Yep.

Words are like shoes...
Try my shoes on...
https://simoncwilliamsblo...press.com/
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Reply #12 posted 06/06/19 12:23pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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I see no moral issues. The estate or whoever ends up owning something should be able to profit from it.

I do not see Prince as an exception... I see this as the rule.

Prince was aware this would happen and spoke positively of it numerous times.


Being a die-hard civil rights champion,
Being a die-hard libertarian,
Sometimes I have to defend
that which I find distasteful.
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Reply #13 posted 06/06/19 12:53pm

MattyJam

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BartVanHemelen said:



MattyJam said:




We all knew that Prince didn't care to look back creatively and until his dying day he was always forging forward, focused on his next creative project.

.


His concerts consisted for 80% and more of 1980s tracks, while utterly ignoring the album he was supposed to promote.



I wasn’t referring to his live shows. I was talking about his reticence to revisit past works in the form of GH, reissues, vault releases. He seemed far more interested in recording new material than thinking of ways to monetise the vault material during his lifetime. One can only assume he didn’t particularly care to focus much of his time/energy during his lifetime on the extensive work he had already amassed and stored away in the vault.
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Reply #14 posted 06/06/19 2:21pm

stillwaiting

bonatoc said:

MattyJam said:

bonatoc said: One of his last TV interviews with Arsenio, he said that most of the material in the Vault would be assembled by someone else not in his lifetime. He knew what was going to happen.


I'm aware of the quote, and a few others related,
and there was some "I dunno" and "maybe" IIRC.
You can't call that a "specific intent".
It's quite the opposite.

As for "he knew what was going to happen", you're either implying he knew he had very few time to live, which is conjecture, or considering final a statement from someone who changed his mind as often as he changed shoes.

Since Prince changing his mind ALL THE TIME is a fact, he's probably in heaven saying "I'm fine with all the material coming out." And then the angel Gabriel said "Even the Tony M Outtakes?" "Uh, on the other hand, no more outtakes should be released ever."

Then the angel Gabriel advised Prince "You can get some heaven currency credits," if they sell at least 5,000 copies. Then Prince said "Release them all." And then he constantly changed his mind again for eternity.

Seriously, what he said on that show The View, or whatever that show was with Sheri Sheppard, or whoever she was showed he could care less about the Vault, or did not care enough to leave any official documents about it. Somebody told him Contract somehow meant CON...now the Prefix to Manager is MAN, what does that mean? Huh? Right, so anyone saying Prince would not have wanted anything to be released has to have the intelligence to understand that Prince DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO PREVENT VAULT RELEASES...that is NOTHING with a Capital N. We are lucky we don't get the JAY Z Remix of Moonbeam Levels, but Jay Z seems to at least somewhat care.

[Edited 6/6/19 14:58pm]

"If U ever lose some1 dear 2 U, Never say the words they're gone....They'll come back."
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Reply #15 posted 06/06/19 2:40pm

Electrostar

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Prince carefully crafted an image and sound. If there are songs / albums in the vault which were intended for release, then publish them! BUT please don't pick though the unfinished ideas / unreleased songs. Desperately trying to find something new which will keep you amused for 5 minutes, until you need something else. He recorded "rough" copies of songs with the intention of possibly re-recording them in the future for his own projects, or for giving as a template to other artists. Please don't promote these rough cuts as "Prince Art". That's sick. He's not giving 100% on them. Unless released material is high quality its going to damage the "magic" of Prince.
Get up, come on let's do something.
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Reply #16 posted 06/06/19 3:00pm

stillwaiting

Electrostar said:

Prince carefully crafted an image and sound. If there are songs / albums in the vault which were intended for release, then publish them! BUT please don't pick though the unfinished ideas / unreleased songs. Desperately trying to find something new which will keep you amused for 5 minutes, until you need something else. He recorded "rough" copies of songs with the intention of possibly re-recording them in the future for his own projects, or for giving as a template to other artists. Please don't promote these rough cuts as "Prince Art". That's sick. He's not giving 100% on them. Unless released material is high quality its going to damage the "magic" of Prince.

If Jughead or Purple And Gold did not damage the "Magic" of Prince, than nothing else in The Vault could possibly hurt his reputation. Then again, if there is a Wedding After Feast, than maybe, but even that awful rap song "The P" is not as bad as the above mentioned songs. Jughead has better music, but the presence of Tony M is enough to make it beyond horrible.

"If U ever lose some1 dear 2 U, Never say the words they're gone....They'll come back."
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Reply #17 posted 06/06/19 4:31pm

bonatoc

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MattyJam said:

BartVanHemelen said:

.

His concerts consisted for 80% and more of 1980s tracks, while utterly ignoring the album he was supposed to promote.

I wasn’t referring to his live shows. I was talking about his reticence to revisit past works in the form of GH, reissues, vault releases. He seemed far more interested in recording new material than thinking of ways to monetise the vault material during his lifetime. One can only assume he didn’t particularly care to focus much of his time/energy during his lifetime on the extensive work he had already amassed and stored away in the vault.


Raspberry Beret.
Strange Relationship.
ICNTTPOYM.
The whole Camille album spread out on B-sides.
Graffiti Bridge.
Crystal Ball.
Extraloveable.

Probably more.

I'm not a contrarian, my friend.
I'm for accuracy.

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #18 posted 06/06/19 4:37pm

bonatoc

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Electrostar said:

Prince carefully crafted an image and sound. If there are songs / albums in the vault which were intended for release, then publish them! BUT please don't pick though the unfinished ideas / unreleased songs. Desperately trying to find something new which will keep you amused for 5 minutes, until you need something else. He recorded "rough" copies of songs with the intention of possibly re-recording them in the future for his own projects, or for giving as a template to other artists. Please don't promote these rough cuts as "Prince Art". That's sick.

He's not giving 100% on them. Unless released material is high quality its going to damage the "magic" of Prince.


Rarely did he do that.

He was giving 100% of himself every day, in every song.
There's more to life than lead vocals.

The Colors R brighter, the Bond is much tighter
No Child's a failure
Until the Blue Sailboat sails him away from his dreams
Don't Ever Lose, Don't Ever Lose
Don't Ever Lose Your Dreams
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Reply #19 posted 06/06/19 4:40pm

OnlyNDaUsa

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we can go deeper ...what if it was just someone that played or sang on a song? Should Led Zepplin not released songs with Bonham on them after he passed away? Should they have stripped out his drumming?


Being a die-hard civil rights champion,
Being a die-hard libertarian,
Sometimes I have to defend
that which I find distasteful.
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Reply #20 posted 06/06/19 10:09pm

WhisperingDand
elions

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The outtakes, sure, you can argue this or that "intentions" yes and/or no with go-to sources in either direction for days,

But in the case of Originals. Ehhhh, I mean. Forget posthumous, forget his hypothetical perspective from beyond, in life the guy went out of his way to explicitly not release these as "Prince" songs. In the case of these specific songs, I mean, there's no mystery or arguments to make: He didn't want these put out as "Prince" songs, or he would have done so... in fact he did put them out, but (intentionally) as Time songs, Martika songs, Sheila, etc.

Other works, other sets, maybe, but this set and any other "Original Versions" releases like it we should always be aware are 100% against his intentions, whatever that may mean to you and your own ethics of posthumous art.

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Reply #21 posted 06/06/19 11:44pm

BlueShakooo

WhisperingDandelions said:

The outtakes, sure, you can argue this or that "intentions" yes and/or no with go-to sources in either direction for days,

But in the case of Originals. Ehhhh, I mean. Forget posthumous, forget his hypothetical perspective from beyond, in life the guy went out of his way to explicitly not release these as "Prince" songs. In the case of these specific songs, I mean, there's no mystery or arguments to make: He didn't want these put out as "Prince" songs, or he would have done so... in fact he did put them out, but (intentionally) as Time songs, Martika songs, Sheila, etc.

Other works, other sets, maybe, but this set and any other "Original Versions" releases like it we should always be aware are 100% against his intentions, whatever that may mean to you and your own ethics of posthumous art.

Why did he keep all these recordings?

He could have erased them.

But he kept them or us.

He was very well aware of his historic status.

And when historic figures die, everything they created and left becomes public (sooner or later).

Even the most intimate things.

That's just how it is and he definitely knew that.

So, I'm fine with everything.

"Don't get too serious, it's just a dream."
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Reply #22 posted 06/07/19 2:03am

BartVanHemelen

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WhisperingDandelions said:


But in the case of Originals. Ehhhh, I mean. Forget posthumous, forget his hypothetical perspective from beyond, in life the guy went out of his way to explicitly not release these as "Prince" songs. In the case of these specific songs, I mean, there's no mystery or arguments to make: He didn't want these put out as "Prince" songs, or he would have done so... in fact he did put them out, but (intentionally) as Time songs, Martika songs, Sheila, etc.

.

Except for the times when he "took back" songs ("Shhhh",...) or when he himself played them live.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
your use. All rights reserved.
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Reply #23 posted 06/07/19 2:42am

tump

I can't stand others deciding on and profiting on someone's unreleased work after their death. Michael Jackson, Prince and George Michael's mysterious deaths (and fake tracks, crappy tracks, fake will and 'no will') all make me sick and remind me that the murderous 'money-minders' have ultimately won.

The common-sense thing is for artists to specifically state how they want their unreleased stuff to be released after death. Assuming Wills are not interfered with...which is another whole issue.
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Reply #24 posted 06/07/19 5:50am

DarkKnight1

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Im selfish, and I will own it. I feel the same about posthumous releases as i do about boots. I recognize that it might not be "what he wanted", but I want it all nevertheless. His music means that much to me. I'm selfish.

(Insert something clever here)
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Reply #25 posted 06/07/19 6:12am

npgee

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stillwaiting said:

Electrostar said:

Prince carefully crafted an image and sound. If there are songs / albums in the vault which were intended for release, then publish them! BUT please don't pick though the unfinished ideas / unreleased songs. Desperately trying to find something new which will keep you amused for 5 minutes, until you need something else. He recorded "rough" copies of songs with the intention of possibly re-recording them in the future for his own projects, or for giving as a template to other artists. Please don't promote these rough cuts as "Prince Art". That's sick. He's not giving 100% on them. Unless released material is high quality its going to damage the "magic" of Prince.

If Jughead or Purple And Gold did not damage the "Magic" of Prince, than nothing else in The Vault could possibly hurt his reputation. Then again, if there is a Wedding After Feast, than maybe, but even that awful rap song "The P" is not as bad as the above mentioned songs. Jughead has better music, but the presence of Tony M is enough to make it beyond horrible.

Good points.

I tried so hard to like Purple and Gold.

I never played that for anyone, except my wife.

I really hoped his football fight song would be cool, it is not.

"What's the hurry 2 die without tryin?
If u could sell ur worries would anyone buy'em?"
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Reply #26 posted 06/07/19 6:15am

NouveauDance

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The fact is the owners of his work now get to choose what to do with them. Prince created them, but he's no longer here to make those decisions. Prince is an important artist in the canon of 20th century popular music and just like finding a scene from a lost Shakespeare play, or an alternative version of chapter 12 of a Charles Dicken's book - everything is interesting to those who enjoy their work and it forms part of their legacy in popular culture in general. So even if Prince never intended for a certain song or demo to be heard, it's not his choice any more and squirreling those things away does not benefit his legacy.

.

His canon of work is finished, but there is much still to be heard and filling in the gaps makes his 'official' work all the more interesting and colourful. Seeing what Prince distilled down to the work he did put out is fascinating, wondering why one thing was released but another not. Hearing him work out ideas, grooves and songs that would form part of albums not released for years later or completely abandoned altogether as his attention was grabbed by a newer whim. Alternative versions, work-in-progress projects, it's all of interest and all important to his vision.

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Reply #27 posted 06/07/19 6:27am

TheEnglishGent

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Prince spoke about it here.

https://www.youtube.com/w...M&t=35

RIP sad
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Reply #28 posted 06/07/19 6:30am

Starlit

MattyJam said:

bonatoc said:


Just your imagination.
If not, please point to the source/quote.


One of his last TV interviews with Arsenio, he said that most of the material in the Vault would be assembled by someone else not in his lifetime. He knew what was going to happen.

On The View in 2012, when asked if he was ever going to release the songs kept in the Vault, he replied : "One day someone will release them. I don't know that I'll get to release them."

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Reply #29 posted 06/07/19 9:31am

Electrostar

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stillwaiting said:



Electrostar said:


Prince carefully crafted an image and sound. If there are songs / albums in the vault which were intended for release, then publish them! BUT please don't pick though the unfinished ideas / unreleased songs. Desperately trying to find something new which will keep you amused for 5 minutes, until you need something else. He recorded "rough" copies of songs with the intention of possibly re-recording them in the future for his own projects, or for giving as a template to other artists. Please don't promote these rough cuts as "Prince Art". That's sick. He's not giving 100% on them. Unless released material is high quality its going to damage the "magic" of Prince.



If Jughead or Purple And Gold did not damage the "Magic" of Prince, than nothing else in The Vault could possibly hurt his reputation. Then again, if there is a Wedding After Feast, than maybe, but even that awful rap song "The P" is not as bad as the above mentioned songs. Jughead has better music, but the presence of Tony M is enough to make it beyond horrible.



I'm sure when Prince recorded feast he wasn't thinking in his own mind, my fans will laugh at this. He was doing what he always did, doing the unexpected. Sometimes people call you genius for that. Sometimes they label you s failure.

As for Jughead and Gold, I love them both. Art is do subjective! The Gold Experience is currently one of my favourite albums alongside Lovesexy. Flows so nicely with great guitar work. Some songs are made for radio, and Gold is that. All my non Prince fans sing along to it when it's on.

Prince even thought GB wss quality! That's art. Let the artist decide what you see and what you don't.
Get up, come on let's do something.
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