skywalker said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

no of that is Yep lol

Certainly it is. This conversation about the album is full of the (overt) subtext of race, people's preconceived notions about hiphop/rap, gender roles, class, and the neat little boxes we try to stuff Prince's music into.

-

Meaning: People of a certain age and background don't think Prince should have ever incorporated rap into his music. They think the artform is beneath him, they think he isn't black enough, they think he isn't street enough. That's like saying he wasn't british enough to incorporate new wave or white enough to play hard rock. It's bullshit. It's racist and classist.

-

If Prince could dabble in jazz* and classical, surely he is welcome to dabble in hip hop. "Gett Off" is proof of that. It's a stone cold classic banger/monster jam for the ages...and it's dripping with hip hop and Tony M.

-

*Would a jazz lover say that the Madhouse albums were "real" or "pure" jazz? Nope. Eric Leeds says as much. Yet, jazz doesn't have the stigma of hip hop so fans give Prince a free pass for being "artsy." The truth is Goldnigga is a fun, silly, side project like Vanity 6 or Madhouse. I've said it before, a lot of Prince fans aren't as openminded as they like to pretend they are...

[Edited 5/17/19 12:53pm]

Yet many times have I read here that Prince's jazz sucked and so on...

.

I'm not gonna pursue on the topic of who speaks because like OF4S says, after all, we don't know who types on the org and where they come from, I acknowledge that. But I agree that many Prince fans, maybe just many fans of any musician in general, wants to put their favorite artist in little boxes and won't forgive them for attempting anything else. IDK, from my perspective it was just a natural thing for Prince to do, to incorporate hip-hop. It would have been weird if he had not when hip-hop because such a central aspect of pop music in general and R&B in particular.

.

But this therad, as many before it, show something somewhat odd: many people resented Prince for not putting out records such as 1999 or SOTT his whole career. What they expected has always been beyond me. Had Prince stuck to his 80's sound his whole career, he would have become outdated and irrelevant, repeating himself to death for 40 years. When he tried to do other things such as Gold Nigga, Kamasutra, The War, ONA or NEWS, the fans' reaction was lukewarm to say the least. At best, by doing "untypical" guitar oriented albums such as The Truth, The Undertaker or Lotusflow3r, Prince managed to get some more praise (which again shows how folk/rock-oriented his audience was). While I can acknowledge that many fans were not satisfied with P's later output, I have no idea what Prince could have done to satisfy those fans. Not a clue. I don't think there's anything he could have done because no matter what he'd have done it would never have been 1984 again, and he would never have been the most influential artist of his generation again either.

Germanegro said:

stillwaiting said:

I was a big rap fan. Had around 100 rap cds, most from 1982-1997. When rap became 85% guns, weed, and more weed and more guns, I stopped as it seemed too shallow, and with Prince, it was like if U2 suddenly started making Big Band records...it just did not fit, and Tony was the perfect example of cheesy. And not cheesy good like Hair Pop Metal like Poison, cheesy like William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy doing rap. It just wreaked. But I understand some will like anything. But not a single one of Prince's rap songs come up when someone is discussing his legacy. Given the proper promotion and censorship, P Control and Days Of Wild were among his two best chances. Although you can argue Housequake is rap, and you can argue against it being rap, it was perhaps his best chance at being a hit among rap songs if you consider it rap. Again, like P Control, proper promotion and censorship are huge issues. And by this time, Prince and Warners teamed up to destroy Prince's career with absurd singles choices like Glam Slam and even one of his best songs, If I Was Your Girlfriend, which is just not a single. They may as well have released Dorothy Parker, as great as it was, would not likely have garnered much airplay.

Interesting. I woud not agree that anyone would ever at all truly beleive that Prince did Rap (or Hip-Hop), including Prince, himself.

>

While Prince would incorporate the element into his songs for a spell he was never a Hip-Hop artist with the rap at the core of his presentation. Never. Ever. Hip-Hop fans will broadly agree with this, am I right? I believe that this is so. Therefore, I don't understand the talk about "Prince's Hip-Hip or Rap albums" except as a set-up for (1) the fans who don't care for rap and like to point out how much they detest the expressions of Tony M. (or T.C. Ellis'--remember Graffiti Bridge), (2) fans who do not care for a male voice beyond Prince (aka Tony M.) being featured prominently in a "Prince" song, or (3) the Hip-Hop fans who wish to point out examples of a weak flow (Tony M.) Prince was following a trend, to be sure, being a cool brother showing some love for the people who were all about the rap.

>

I don't think that Tony M was terrible. He was what he was--maybe cartoonish or frivolous sometimes as far as the content and hollering in concerts, but I dig it still today. He said cool stuff about negotiating the music industry and standing for self. T.M. said his piece in a few albums, reciting a script that Prince approved. Maybe was "Chuck D. light" in as far as his tone, which to me as an appreciative listener isn't awful in and of itself, although people can have a point on how jarring a Chuck-D-voice can be while placed next to Prince's voice. Perhaps that is why Prince gave Tony an exactly 2 album spread of exposure on definitive "Prince" tracks, then gave him a full run on Goldnigga--the NPG project--to let him shine on his own before finally dropping him out to resume lead vox with the NPG band for their last NPG project NewPowerSoul.

>

It was a progression that Prince went through. Prince blended styles and moved between them whether or not you liked one--that was his thing. He had so many styles, and the desire to get them all out to the public for whatever reasons he had. His hitting upon the "Minneapolis Sound" was cool. Some people don't like when he got into his jazzy sounds. Not everybody has to like that 90s stuff, or any of it, I guess! Not everybody has to like Vanilla Ice, Young MC, or whatever.

>

Reading about the hate makes me chuckle. Man, hopefully Tony can, too!

'n' B

WE can disagree on that one, which is fine. Jughead played in full every night for an entire tour.

Original version of Old Friends 4 Sale-never. Moonbeam Levels-never played in full...go figure.

OldFriends4Sale said:

stillwaiting said:

Germanegro said:

Interesting. I woud not agree that anyone would ever at all truly beleive that Prince did Rap (or Hip-Hop), including Prince, himself.

>

While Prince would incorporate the element into his songs for a spell he was never a Hip-Hop artist with the rap at the core of his presentation. Never. Ever. Hip-Hop fans will broadly agree with this, am I right? I believe that this is so. Therefore, I don't understand the talk about "Prince's Hip-Hip or Rap albums" except as a set-up for (1) the fans who don't care for rap and like to point out how much they detest the expressions of Tony M. (or T.C. Ellis'--remember Graffiti Bridge), (2) fans who do not care for a male voice beyond Prince (aka Tony M.) being featured prominently in a "Prince" song, or (3) the Hip-Hop fans who wish to point out examples of a weak flow (Tony M.) Prince was following a trend, to be sure, being a cool brother showing some love for the people who were all about the rap.

>

I don't think that Tony M was terrible. He was what he was--maybe cartoonish or frivolous sometimes as far as the content and hollering in concerts, but I dig it still today. He said cool stuff about negotiating the music industry and standing for self. T.M. said his piece in a few albums, reciting a script that Prince approved. Maybe was "Chuck D. light" in as far as his tone, which to me as an appreciative listener isn't awful in and of itself, although people can have a point on how jarring a Chuck-D-voice can be while placed next to Prince's voice. Perhaps that is why Prince gave Tony an exactly 2 album spread of exposure on definitive "Prince" tracks, then gave him a full run on Goldnigga--the NPG project--to let him shine on his own before finally dropping him out to resume lead vox with the NPG band for their last NPG project NewPowerSoul.

>

It was a progression that Prince went through. Prince blended styles and moved between them whether or not you liked one--that was his thing. He had so many styles, and the desire to get them all out to the public for whatever reasons he had. His hitting upon the "Minneapolis Sound" was cool. Some people don't like when he got into his jazzy sounds. Not everybody has to like that 90s stuff, or any of it, I guess! Not everybody has to like Vanilla Ice, Young MC, or whatever.

>

Reading about the hate makes me chuckle. Man, hopefully Tony can, too!

'n' B

WE can disagree on that one, which is fine. Jughead played in full every night for an entire tour.

Original version of Old Friends 4 Sale-never. Moonbeam Levels-never played in full...go figure.

The main issue with Tony was that he was shouting on stage, his live performances were indeed very questionable.

In the studio he wasn't shouting and he was sharp.

Another approach to this whole reassessing would be: what if Gold Nigga had been the first album of a new band that had nothing to do with Prince, and it had been properly released by a label.

It would probably stand alongside Buckshot LeFonque and Brooklyn Funk Essentials' 90's albums as a really cool jazz/rap fusion experiment by a fresh new band.

.

But it was Prince, the dude who'd made 1999 and SOTT, so people had to bitch. The same could be said about Miles' Doo Bop, which was as fresh as a record could be in 1992, but bitched at by people just because it was Miles while new act Ronny Jordan received nothing but praise for doing pretty much the same thing at the same time.

.

[Edited 5/17/19 14:31pm]

databank said:

Another approach to this whole reassessing would be: what if Gold Nigga had been the first album of a new band that had nothing to do with Prince, and it had been properly released by a label.

It would probably stand alongside Buckshot LeFonque and Brooklyn Funk Essentials' 90's albums as a really cool jazz/rap fusion experiment by a fresh new band.

.

But it was Prince, the dude who'd made 1999 and SOTT, so people had to bitch. The same could be said about Miles' Doo Bop, which was as fresh as a record could be in 1992, but bitched at by people just because it was Miles while new act Ronny Jordan received nothing but praise for doing pretty much the same thing at the same time.

.

[Edited 5/17/19 14:31pm]

when you set your bar high...

we also went from Vanity 6/Sheila E to Carmen Electra

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

Another approach to this whole reassessing would be: what if Gold Nigga had been the first album of a new band that had nothing to do with Prince, and it had been properly released by a label.

It would probably stand alongside Buckshot LeFonque and Brooklyn Funk Essentials' 90's albums as a really cool jazz/rap fusion experiment by a fresh new band.

.

But it was Prince, the dude who'd made 1999 and SOTT, so people had to bitch. The same could be said about Miles' Doo Bop, which was as fresh as a record could be in 1992, but bitched at by people just because it was Miles while new act Ronny Jordan received nothing but praise for doing pretty much the same thing at the same time.

.

[Edited 5/17/19 14:31pm]

when you set your bar high...

we also went from Vanity 6/Sheila E to Carmen Electra

Yeah, but Carmen Electra... what to say...

Carmen Electra made no sense in 1993. It wouldn't sit next to any nice 1993 record the way I believe Gold Nigga does, at least no nice 1993 record that I know of.

Not that it's all bad though, it's full of little cool stuff here and there but as a whole it makes no sense, and Carmen herself was a much worse casting error than Tony. CE may be Prince's most disappointing album ever. Gold Nigga is a much more cohesive and solid statement IMHO.

Everyone can claim their own rating of Prince's works and place them into whatever boxes they choose to lump 'em in, to boot. People are constantly doing that and have their favorite era of "when he was best."

Jughead and When Doves Cry are both pop songs, with lyrics that rhyme. They both tell stories that are kind of equally vital, IMO--"I have parental-generated angst" vs "let's silly-dance this mutha' out and recite your rights to the money-minders while you jam." Which is the more "important" song of the two? Will a critc be the best evaluator? Neither of them are very tricky playing (save the guitar intro of WDC according to some musicians)--I'm no musician but I'll just say that. Prince erased the bass track on one of those 2 songs; it was a trick, an effect, a display of his arrangement skill that would serve him well through the whole span of his career, so why not shine some light on more of his gems, too. Critics will cherry-pick their top-standards. As a fan I say eh. Tasteless, I guess.

>

When you have an outstanding killer band like the members of Fshbone talking about "that crazy Prince," don't you think it might be worthwhile to reevaluate some ideas of what he did that is good that your ears might have somehow missed?

>

I feel that it is a worthy thing to look at the full arc of the man's career as you seem to agree and check ALL of his influences and all of the battles that he fought, won, and lost to gain the fullest appreciation. Outside of that, we can all remember Prince in the way we like best.

>

And since you mentioned George Clinton, he did do some cool rap material in the 80s, funk-style, that I'd rate well--ideas that Outkast could borrow!

>

All is my perspective, of course.

>

databank said:

Germanegro said:

It should, as a part of the complete works of the man, don't you think? It is a part of who he was. His legacy is everything that he is.

That would be like saying "I never hear David Bowie's late 90's drum and bass works being mentioned as a significant aspect of his legacy" or "I never hear Rickie Lee Jones' 1997 trip-hop album..." or "Kate Bush' ambient album from 2011", etc.

.

I love those records, I actually even think they're awesome, but clearly Bowie is not going to be remembered as a historical figure in drum and bass history alongside Goldie, neither will Jones be remembered as a major, game changing trip-hop artist in the lines of Massive Attack, Morcheeba or Tricky, neither will Kate Bush be remembered as the new Brian Eno. You also don't hear people mentioning George Clinton's rap works from the 90's as the most significant part of his heritage. And so on and so on... Each artist has a peak where they define their own style and, in some case, influence a whole generation of artists.

.

Now I'm known here for having been a strong defender of everything Prince did post-WB, and I still think that it is a pity that most artists' works, as a whole, are shadowed by their peak years. I try to apprehend an artists' works as a whole journey and I usually find great qualities in their post peak years. That's particularly true for Prince, whose works I followed year after year for three decades, and I never lost interest. But expecting Jughead to be put on the same level as When Doves Cry is silly. Prince did not become famous and did not influence a whole generation of musicians because of Jughead. Prince did not make history with Jughead, he made history with When Doves Cry. And Earthling will never be perceived the way Ziggy Stardust is being perceived either because you don't have a whole generation of rock musician citing Earthling as a major influence. There's nothing you can do about it. It doesn't mean every artist's later works are uninteresting or lame either.

Love it. Always will. Brings back memories of the D&P era.

The man was a genius. Covered all genres of music.

Germanegro said:

Everyone can claim their own rating of Prince's works and place them into whatever boxes they choose to lump 'em in, to boot. People are constantly doing that and have their favorite era of "when he was best."

Jughead and When Doves Cry are both pop songs, with lyrics that rhyme. They both tell stories that are kind of equally vital, IMO--"I have parental-generated angst" vs "let's silly-dance this mutha' out and recite your rights to the money-minders while you jam." Which is the more "important" song of the two? Will a critc be the best evaluator? Neither of them are very tricky playing (save the guitar intro of WDC according to some musicians)--I'm no musician but I'll just say that. Prince erased the bass track on one of those 2 songs; it was a trick, an effect

OK, I'm gonna have to say this. Pretty much everything we artists do is a trick, an effect. Our job is to grab you people, make you feel and think things, make you trip and leave an impression on y'all. It's happened to me quite a few times: people are like "wow you pulled some incredible shit there, I have no idea how you did this", and you politely say "thank you very much", but inside you're laughing because you know exactly what you did and how you did it, it had the exact effect you expected and to you it was no such big deal, you were just doing your thing.

.

On a sidenote, I quoted WDC but my point was that P's work in general from 1980 to 1988 was quite innovative and very influential. That's not a personal assessment or an opinion, it's quite factual. Does that mean his later material is weaker? I certainly do not think so, but we can't change the fact that his run from 1980 to 1988 is gonna leave, has already left a stronger impression than his later stuff. Believe me, I often deplore it because I find his later works full of gems that I think are underrated and that I hope will be rediscovered, but it's the way it is.

Correct--Prince reached a height of poularity in the 80s' because he designed a band that captured the attention of a diverse audience. He applied some tricks at that time and everybody caught notice. Now, since all caught notice at that one particuar period, the narrative runs that this is the height of his achievement. Some of Prince's innovations he popularized were really influential through the Minneapolis Sound. He contributed songs to other artists during this period that were enthusiastically received. His use of instruments of the era and recording in his singular compositional and arrangement style and engineering values you could say helped broaden the appeal of 80s music further among listeners that maybe wouldn't have otherwise been. Some instruments emerged anew during this era, and he and band members used those to build on his sound, the Fairlight keyboard, for example. I guess I'm saying that it would be well worthwhile to dive deeper into the reasons why he was so successful at that period--having this image-building cult of personality held by an ambiguous man, pushing different sounds with a scintillating presentation. He continued his growth throughout his career is a thing that I'd like for a greater number people to understand.

>

I simply diverge from the opinion of some fans and historians who wish to promote the narrative that the height of Prince's talent had peaked at '83-'88. While historians today look to that era as his height, as shown commercially (the IS in what it is)--the record company, fans, and musicians look to the era as most popular, the best, and bearing great influence--I just say to look at more of what he did, too, perhaps with a fresh eye. A tough sell today as the eighties material shines so brightly for him.

>

Prince engineered a good chunk of his waxing and waning popularity, and that is something additionally fascinating about the man and his sense for directing a career--Gold Nigga being one point in that discussion, that the point for him was not always about being a top-seller, or maintaining one standard. Maintaining his tensile navigation as others viewed with less enthusiasm consequently brought him mixed comercial results. Like you say, this is not to say that he was any less brilliant throughout the extra-'83-'88 portion of his career, or had lesser-quality creativity across the continuum of his activity. At the same time I'm pretty confident that he had stinkers, too-- in both his business and his writing--peppered throughout his entire run.

>

The narrative of his career seems to be pretty skew toward his commercial peak. I'd wish to push the view to pan more broadly toward Prince's work; this is a relevant concern, IMHO, to look more inclusively at the man's work if people want to have a really good look at the man and appreciate what he had done. The '83-'88 era is what it is, but man, there is so much more that is there, too. Shifts in songwriting; assembling new great bands; broadening his spectrum of style hybridization; navigating industry changes, etc.

>

databank said:

Germanegro said:

Everyone can claim their own rating of Prince's works and place them into whatever boxes they choose to lump 'em in, to boot. People are constantly doing that and have their favorite era of "when he was best."

Jughead and When Doves Cry are both pop songs, with lyrics that rhyme. They both tell stories that are kind of equally vital, IMO--"I have parental-generated angst" vs "let's silly-dance this mutha' out and recite your rights to the money-minders while you jam." Which is the more "important" song of the two? Will a critc be the best evaluator? Neither of them are very tricky playing (save the guitar intro of WDC according to some musicians)--I'm no musician but I'll just say that. Prince erased the bass track on one of those 2 songs; it was a trick, an effect

OK, I'm gonna have to say this. Pretty much everything we artists do is a trick, an effect. Our job is to grab you people, make you feel and think things, make you trip and leave an impression on y'all. It's happened to me quite a few times: people are like "wow you pulled some incredible shit there, I have no idea how you did this", and you politely say "thank you very much", but inside you're laughing because you know exactly what you did and how you did it, it had the exact effect you expected and to you it was no such big deal, you were just doing your thing.

.

On a sidenote, I quoted WDC but my point was that P's work in general from 1980 to 1988 was quite innovative and very influential. That's not a personal assessment or an opinion, it's quite factual. Does that mean his later material is weaker? I certainly do not think so, but we can't change the fact that his run from 1980 to 1988 is gonna leave, has already left a stronger impression than his later stuff. Believe me, I often deplore it because I find his later works full of gems that I think are underrated and that I hope will be rediscovered, but it's the way it is.

I am a little surprised how this thread turned so much into a discussion of racial politics and whether Prince was street enough or not.

My intention was to encourage others to go back and listen to the album with fresh ears. It was so easy at the time of release to see everything in the context of what else was happening in the music world. Listening again, distanced from that time, gave me (IMHO) a new listen and a new perspective.

I agree with those here that say the production and the music on the album is excellent. I can also share in the pro and con discussion on Tony M.

I share with the previous post the view that Prince managed his popularity and enjoyed moving away from a mass audience. I also feel that many of the side products allowed him to experiment in other styles and with new ideas in a playful way.

I would like to reclaim the thread and ask for more discussion of the music in addition to the ethnographic discussion.

stillwaiting said:

Vannormal said:

-

-

To name a few:

- the whole Controversy and Batman Album.

- Romance 1600

- Appolonia 6

- Ice Cream Castles

- the track Come Home by Mavis Staples, Push It Up (with Chaka)

and so many others, etc...

-

(don't kill me for my choices)

-

Don't know how any Prince fan who would actually come on here would not be well versed in Controversy and Batman. Or Ice Cream Castles. They are pretty much Prince 101. Sure, I probably skip Trust and The Arms of Orion a bit on Batman, and hardly ever listen to Chili Sauce. Now I like most of Sheila's 1600, but have not listened to Apolonia save for Sex Shooter in over 20 years or more.

-

'Chili Sauce' is fucking awesome.

'Arms Of Orion' is not that bad either. (I for one never liked Prince's vocal on this track, but the song is ok.

-

Track listing

Goldnigga pt. 1 – 3:11

Guess Who's Knockin'? – 3:25 *

Oilcan – 0:42

segue – 0:16

Deuce & a Quarter – 3:19

segue – 0:21

Black M.F. In the House – 5:09

Goldnigga pt. 2 – 2:52

Goldie's Parade – 2:22

segue – 0:36

2gether – 5:32

segue – 0:45

Call the Law – 4:16

Johnny – 10:20

segue – 1:13

Goldnigga pt. 3 – 2:38

*Only on first pressing

Singles

2gether

12-inch Mix

Interview

Enlightenment

Jeep Mix

Instrumental

The track "Guess Who's Knockin'" referenced Paul McCartney's "Let 'Em In" without credit. Probably to avoid any legal difficulties, the track was removed from second and subsequent pressings, making initial copies of the album even more highly sought after.

databank said:

Germanegro said:

It should, as a part of the complete works of the man, don't you think? It is a part of who he was. His legacy is everything that he is.

That would be like saying "I never hear David Bowie's late 90's drum and bass works being mentioned as a significant aspect of his legacy" or "I never hear Rickie Lee Jones' 1997 trip-hop album..." or "Kate Bush' ambient album from 2011", etc.

.

I love those records, I actually even think they're awesome, but clearly Bowie is not going to be remembered as a historical figure in drum and bass history alongside Goldie, neither will Jones be remembered as a major, game changing trip-hop artist in the lines of Massive Attack, Morcheeba or Tricky, neither will Kate Bush be remembered as the new Brian Eno. You also don't hear people mentioning George Clinton's rap works from the 90's as the most significant part of his heritage. And so on and so on... Each artist has a peak where they define their own style and, in some case, influence a whole generation of artists.

.

Now I'm known here for having been a strong defender of everything Prince did post-WB, and I still think that it is a pity that most artists' works, as a whole, are shadowed by their peak years. I try to apprehend an artists' works as a whole journey and I usually find great qualities in their post peak years. That's particularly true for Prince, whose works I followed year after year for three decades, and I never lost interest. But expecting Jughead to be put on the same level as When Doves Cry is silly. Prince did not become famous and did not influence a whole generation of musicians because of Jughead. Prince did not make history with Jughead, he made history with When Doves Cry. And Earthling will never be perceived the way Ziggy Stardust is being perceived either because you don't have a whole generation of rock musician citing Earthling as a major influence. There's nothing you can do about it. It doesn't mean every artist's later works are uninteresting or lame either.

Well said Databank, i agree 100% with all your comments in this thread.

Germanegro said:

Correct--Prince reached a height of poularity in the 80s' because he designed a band that captured the attention of a diverse audience. He applied some tricks at that time and everybody caught notice. Now, since all caught notice at that one particuar period, the narrative runs that this is the height of his achievement. Some of Prince's innovations he popularized were really influential through the Minneapolis Sound. He contributed songs to other artists during this period that were enthusiastically received. His use of instruments of the era and recording in his singular compositional and arrangement style and engineering values you could say helped broaden the appeal of 80s music further among listeners that maybe wouldn't have otherwise been. Some instruments emerged anew during this era, and he and band members used those to build on his sound, the Fairlight keyboard, for example. I guess I'm saying that it would be well worthwhile to dive deeper into the reasons why he was so successful at that period--having this image-building cult of personality held by an ambiguous man, pushing different sounds with a scintillating presentation. He continued his growth throughout his career is a thing that I'd like for a greater number people to understand.

>

I simply diverge from the opinion of some fans and historians who wish to promote the narrative that the height of Prince's talent had peaked at '83-'88. While historians today look to that era as his height, as shown commercially (the IS in what it is)--the record company, fans, and musicians look to the era as most popular, the best, and bearing great influence--I just say to look at more of what he did, too, perhaps with a fresh eye. A tough sell today as the eighties material shines so brightly for him.

>

Prince engineered a good chunk of his waxing and waning popularity, and that is something additionally fascinating about the man and his sense for directing a career--Gold Nigga being one point in that discussion, that the point for him was not always about being a top-seller, or maintaining one standard. Maintaining his tensile navigation as others viewed with less enthusiasm consequently brought him mixed comercial results. Like you say, this is not to say that he was any less brilliant throughout the extra-'83-'88 portion of his career, or had lesser-quality creativity across the continuum of his activity. At the same time I'm pretty confident that he had stinkers, too-- in both his business and his writing--peppered throughout his entire run.

>

The narrative of his career seems to be pretty skew toward his commercial peak. I'd wish to push the view to pan more broadly toward Prince's work; this is a relevant concern, IMHO, to look more inclusively at the man's work if people want to have a really good look at the man and appreciate what he had done. The '83-'88 era is what it is, but man, there is so much more that is there, too. Shifts in songwriting; assembling new great bands; broadening his spectrum of style hybridization; navigating industry changes, etc.

>

databank said:

OK, I'm gonna have to say this. Pretty much everything we artists do is a trick, an effect. Our job is to grab you people, make you feel and think things, make you trip and leave an impression on y'all. It's happened to me quite a few times: people are like "wow you pulled some incredible shit there, I have no idea how you did this", and you politely say "thank you very much", but inside you're laughing because you know exactly what you did and how you did it, it had the exact effect you expected and to you it was no such big deal, you were just doing your thing.

.

On a sidenote, I quoted WDC but my point was that P's work in general from 1980 to 1988 was quite innovative and very influential. That's not a personal assessment or an opinion, it's quite factual. Does that mean his later material is weaker? I certainly do not think so, but we can't change the fact that his run from 1980 to 1988 is gonna leave, has already left a stronger impression than his later stuff. Believe me, I often deplore it because I find his later works full of gems that I think are underrated and that I hope will be rediscovered, but it's the way it is.

I'm totally with you here, dude, but if I've learned one thing it's that when even Prince fans and professional critics altogether have a biased vision of his whole career, based on the impact, mythos and innovations of the 80's, what can we do to spread the word? And 18 years on the Org have shown me that the fans at least can't and won't be reasoned. Just because we believe it doesn't mean we can make everyone else believe it, and we're talking about some stubborn MF's here, and not just when it comes to P, but a general attitude towards musical artists

.

It is clear that while artists may be more innovative at any given time, that doesn't mean their only quality was innovation and that they were irrelevant after that point, and this is why I've always said that if any new act had released any post-WB Prince album, they would have been universally praised.

.

All I can say is that many people I've met who originally didn't care much for Prince's hits were quite impressed at the time they were released by records such as TGE, NPS, Rave, TRC, Musicology, 3121 or HitnRun Phase II, and I think part of it is that such works spoke to them more than the "peak" years because they were in phase with the time and maybe even more because the music wasn't dissolved in controversy and superstar neo-messianic propaganda like the 80's were. So maybe music historians, while recognizing the impact of Prince's original run, will be kinder to his later years because they'll actually listen to the music.-

highcalonic said:

databank said:

That would be like saying "I never hear David Bowie's late 90's drum and bass works being mentioned as a significant aspect of his legacy" or "I never hear Rickie Lee Jones' 1997 trip-hop album..." or "Kate Bush' ambient album from 2011", etc.

.

I love those records, I actually even think they're awesome, but clearly Bowie is not going to be remembered as a historical figure in drum and bass history alongside Goldie, neither will Jones be remembered as a major, game changing trip-hop artist in the lines of Massive Attack, Morcheeba or Tricky, neither will Kate Bush be remembered as the new Brian Eno. You also don't hear people mentioning George Clinton's rap works from the 90's as the most significant part of his heritage. And so on and so on... Each artist has a peak where they define their own style and, in some case, influence a whole generation of artists.

.

Now I'm known here for having been a strong defender of everything Prince did post-WB, and I still think that it is a pity that most artists' works, as a whole, are shadowed by their peak years. I try to apprehend an artists' works as a whole journey and I usually find great qualities in their post peak years. That's particularly true for Prince, whose works I followed year after year for three decades, and I never lost interest. But expecting Jughead to be put on the same level as When Doves Cry is silly. Prince did not become famous and did not influence a whole generation of musicians because of Jughead. Prince did not make history with Jughead, he made history with When Doves Cry. And Earthling will never be perceived the way Ziggy Stardust is being perceived either because you don't have a whole generation of rock musician citing Earthling as a major influence. There's nothing you can do about it. It doesn't mean every artist's later works are uninteresting or lame either.

Well said Databank, i agree 100% with all your comments in this thread.

Thx for the support

I always look forward to broadening conversations on Prince's music and career. This thread is doing the work to help kick this into gear. Thanks to grantevans.

I'm totally with you here, dude, but if I've learned one thing it's that when even Prince fans and professional critics altogether have a biased vision of his whole career, based on the impact, mythos and innovations of the 80's, what can we do to spread the word? And 18 years on the Org have shown me that the fans at least can't and won't be reasoned. Just because we believe it doesn't mean we can make everyone else believe it, and we're talking about some stubborn MF's here, and not just when it comes to P, but a general attitude towards musical artists

.

It is clear that while artists may be more innovative at any given time, that doesn't mean their only quality was innovation and that they were irrelevant after that point, and this is why I've always said that if any new act had released any post-WB Prince album, they would have been universally praised.

.

All I can say is that many people I've met who originally didn't care much for Prince's hits were quite impressed at the time they were released by records such as TGE, NPS, Rave, TRC, Musicology, 3121 or HitnRun Phase II, and I think part of it is that such works spoke to them more than the "peak" years because they were in phase with the time and maybe even more because the music wasn't dissolved in controversy and superstar neo-messianic propaganda like the 80's were. So maybe music historians, while recognizing the impact of Prince's original run, will be kinder to his later years because they'll actually listen to the music.-

Hey, what up y'all?
NPG's in the house kickin' the gift
Talkin' about us livin' in an incubated society
And ain't shit changed in 20 years y'all
We just in a state of sobriety
That's right - this one is subject 2 justification
'cause we shootin' 4 heads of state
Hmph, and 2 my brothers and sisters strugglin' 2 try and learn
Don't be confused by the term...

Ahh, Goldnigga - a term that might seem offensive 2 some
But one we've adapted - that means the money's earned
By the knowledge and creative efforts of a black man
Who can feel good 'cause there's no blood on his hands
In a time when respect is gotten, not from what a leader might say
But 9 M's, Glock 7's and AK's
It's a shame, but that's the way it is
That's the reality of things - our state of mind has been twisted
Demented in the way that seems irreversible
2 much clout and status in the movers and shakers and people with pull
Instead of leading, we are being led
By generations of punk motherfu... Yo Tone, nuff said
Yeah, U right, but I must speak on this
Before me and my people die in this endless abyss
So as we go round and round in an attempt 2 get bigger

I send a shout out 2 all my fellow Goldniggaz
Stay strong!

CHORUS:
Goldnigga - we can turn this mutha out
Goldnigga - tell me what U're all about (Stay strong)
Goldnigga - we can turn this mutha out
Goldnigga - tell me what U're all about (Please, please stop!)

Get up, stand up, stand up 4 your rights
'cause Goldniggaz don't go out without a fight
Mentality's 2 strong, we bring brothers who struggle along
Nevermind preachin' about the prior things they had did wrong
'cause every new day is a fresh start
And I mean that shit from the bottom of my heart
I place this burden on the shoulders with an upraisal in effect
It's time we earn proper respect
(Please stop!) {sample repeats in BG}
Big up goldniggaz

CHORUS
(Yeah) (Come on, come on)
(Mmm, say it) (We, we, we like it)

U better stop! {sample repeats 2 fade}

Tony M. - lead vocals
Unidentified female - vocals
Michael B. - drums
Sonny T. - bass guitar
Levi Seacer, Jr. - guitar
Kirk Johnson - background vocals
Damon Dickson - background vocals
Tommy Barbarella - piano

Prince - all other instruments, except where noted (assumed)
Michael B. Nelson - horns (uncredited)
Kathy Jensen - horns (uncredited)
Dave Jensen - horns (uncredited)
Brian Gallagher - horns (uncredited)
Steve Strand - horns (uncredited)

OldFriends4Sale said:

Hey, what up y'all?
NPG's in the house kickin' the gift
Talkin' about us livin' in an incubated society
And ain't shit changed in 20 years y'all
We just in a state of sobriety
That's right - this one is subject 2 justification
'cause we shootin' 4 heads of state
Hmph, and 2 my brothers and sisters strugglin' 2 try and learn
Don't be confused by the term...

Ahh, Goldnigga - a term that might seem offensive 2 some
But one we've adapted - that means the money's earned
By the knowledge and creative efforts of a black man
Who can feel good 'cause there's no blood on his hands
In a time when respect is gotten, not from what a leader might say
But 9 M's, Glock 7's and AK's
It's a shame, but that's the way it is
That's the reality of things - our state of mind has been twisted
Demented in the way that seems irreversible
2 much clout and status in the movers and shakers and people with pull
Instead of leading, we are being led
By generations of punk motherfu... Yo Tone, nuff said
Yeah, U right, but I must speak on this
Before me and my people die in this endless abyss
So as we go round and round in an attempt 2 get bigger

I send a shout out 2 all my fellow Goldniggaz
Stay strong!

CHORUS:
Goldnigga - we can turn this mutha out
Goldnigga - tell me what U're all about (Stay strong)
Goldnigga - we can turn this mutha out
Goldnigga - tell me what U're all about (Please, please stop!)

Get up, stand up, stand up 4 your rights
'cause Goldniggaz don't go out without a fight
Mentality's 2 strong, we bring brothers who struggle along
Nevermind preachin' about the prior things they had did wrong
'cause every new day is a fresh start
And I mean that shit from the bottom of my heart
I place this burden on the shoulders with an upraisal in effect
It's time we earn proper respect
(Please stop!) {sample repeats in BG}
Big up goldniggaz

CHORUS
(Yeah) (Come on, come on)
(Mmm, say it) (We, we, we like it)

U better stop! {sample repeats 2 fade}

Tony M. - lead vocals
Unidentified female - vocals
Michael B. - drums
Sonny T. - bass guitar
Levi Seacer, Jr. - guitar
Kirk Johnson - background vocals
Damon Dickson - background vocals
Tommy Barbarella - piano

Prince - all other instruments, except where noted (assumed)
Michael B. Nelson - horns (uncredited)
Kathy Jensen - horns (uncredited)
Dave Jensen - horns (uncredited)
Brian Gallagher - horns (uncredited)
Steve Strand - horns (uncredited)

Never read the lyrics and not being a native English speaker, never got 'em in detail without a lyrics sheet. Makes me wanna stop and read' em https://genius.com/albums...Gold-nigga

databank said:

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

Hey, what up y'all?
NPG's in the house kickin' the gift
Talkin' about us livin' in an incubated society
And ain't shit changed in 20 years y'all
We just in a state of sobriety
That's right - this one is subject 2 justification
'cause we shootin' 4 heads of state
Hmph, and 2 my brothers and sisters strugglin' 2 try and learn
Don't be confused by the term...

Ahh, Goldnigga - a term that might seem offensive 2 some
But one we've adapted - that means the money's earned
By the knowledge and creative efforts of a black man
Who can feel good 'cause there's no blood on his hands
In a time when respect is gotten, not from what a leader might say
But 9 M's, Glock 7's and AK's
It's a shame, but that's the way it is
That's the reality of things - our state of mind has been twisted
Demented in the way that seems irreversible
2 much clout and status in the movers and shakers and people with pull
Instead of leading, we are being led
By generations of punk motherfu... Yo Tone, nuff said
Yeah, U right, but I must speak on this
Before me and my people die in this endless abyss
So as we go round and round in an attempt 2 get bigger

I send a shout out 2 all my fellow Goldniggaz
Stay strong!

CHORUS:
Goldnigga - we can turn this mutha out
Goldnigga - tell me what U're all about (Stay strong)
Goldnigga - we can turn this mutha out
Goldnigga - tell me what U're all about (Please, please stop!)

Get up, stand up, stand up 4 your rights
'cause Goldniggaz don't go out without a fight
Mentality's 2 strong, we bring brothers who struggle along
Nevermind preachin' about the prior things they had did wrong
'cause every new day is a fresh start
And I mean that shit from the bottom of my heart
I place this burden on the shoulders with an upraisal in effect
It's time we earn proper respect
(Please stop!) {sample repeats in BG}
Big up goldniggaz

CHORUS
(Yeah) (Come on, come on)
(Mmm, say it) (We, we, we like it)

U better stop! {sample repeats 2 fade}

Tony M. - lead vocals
Unidentified female - vocals
Michael B. - drums
Sonny T. - bass guitar
Levi Seacer, Jr. - guitar
Kirk Johnson - background vocals
Damon Dickson - background vocals
Tommy Barbarella - piano

Prince - all other instruments, except where noted (assumed)
Michael B. Nelson - horns (uncredited)
Kathy Jensen - horns (uncredited)
Dave Jensen - horns (uncredited)
Brian Gallagher - horns (uncredited)
Steve Strand - horns (uncredited)

Never read the lyrics and not being a native English speaker, never got 'em in detail without a lyrics sheet. Makes me wanna stop and read' em https://genius.com/albums...Gold-nigga

the rapping is atrocious, the lyrics are garbage

But the music is nice

Has Prince ever covered any of these songs post 1996?

RJOrion said:

databank said:

Another approach to this whole reassessing would be: what if Gold Nigga had been the first album of a new band that had nothing to do with Prince, and it had been properly released by a label.

It would probably stand alongside Buckshot LeFonque and Brooklyn Funk Essentials' 90's albums as a really cool jazz/rap fusion experiment by a fresh new band.

.

But it was Prince, the dude who'd made 1999 and SOTT, so people had to bitch. The same could be said about Miles' Doo Bop, which was as fresh as a record could be in 1992, but bitched at by people just because it was Miles while new act Ronny Jordan received nothing but praise for doing pretty much the same thing at the same time.

.

[Edited 5/17/19 14:31pm]

^ this sums up the whole topic perfectly

Right, but you are still dealing with Prince. Not some new dude on the scene. Yes Prince made 1999, are we seriously saying GoldNigga (which is not even mostly Prince) is in the same league as SOTT or 1999?

This is around the time the Roots came out with Do You Want More?!!!??! and Illadelph Halflife

Their first album KIIILLLLLLS Goldnigga. Tony is is NOT a good rapper.

Now if the album was 1. titled something different 2. instrumental it would be a good reception

Ronny Jordan wasn't Goldnigga-ing and BlackMuthaF-in on his album. To compare even those two and wonder why Ronny Jordan received nothing but praise is 1+1+1=3.
And Ronny Jordan's first album actually had some rap on it and it was Great!! Season For Change [feat. Guru] stellar. Tony M vs Guru?

I LOVE the Roots, but even with them someof the language was going to make reception difficult.

Guess Who's Knockin'

[url]https://diffuser.fm/prince-guess-whos-knockin/[url]

“Guess Who’s Knockin’” was a forgettable song from an insignificant Prince album -- until the day it disappeared, that is. Now both the song and the original pressing of that album are among the most highly sought after Prince collectables. “Guess Who’s Knockin’” originally appeared as the second track on Gold N---a, the first album credited solely to the Prince’s backing band, the New Power Generation.

After Warner Bros. passed on releasing Gold N---a, Prince self-pressed an initial run of CDs and sold them at select tour stops and NPG retail outlets. “Guess Who’s Knockin’” riffs off the lyrics to one of Paul McCartney’s most popular Wings-era songs, “Let 'Em In.” It is unknown if McCartney’s legal counsel made moves to block the song’s wider release or if Prince decided its inclusion only complicated the royalty situation for the first record he was releasing without the protections and resources of a major record label. The song was deleted from all subsequent pressings of the album.

By the early '90s, hip-hop was snowballing in popularity to become the dominant force in both music and culture that is today. Gold N---a was perceived by many to be both a blatant and desperate attempt at street cred by Prince, a mainstream pop artist who initially dismissed the rap genre.

Gold N---a also represents the ascension of rapper Tony M. (Anthony Mosley); the album is primarily a celebration of his exploits. Mosley’s roots with Prince date all the way back to the film Purple Rain, where he appeared as a dancer alongside future NPG’ers Kirk Johnson and Damon Dickson. As Matt Thorne describes in his book, Prince: The Man and His Music, “While Prince seemed threatened by rap during the first half of hip-hop’s golden age, by 1990 he started to see a way through.” Thorne details how Mosley began to rap during sound checks and rehearsals and was soon incorporated into the group. As Mosley became more and more prominently featured on the Diamonds and Pearls and Love Symbol albums, many fans bemoaned that P...

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

Never read the lyrics and not being a native English speaker, never got 'em in detail without a lyrics sheet. Makes me wanna stop and read' em https://genius.com/albums...Gold-nigga

the rapping is atrocious, the lyrics are garbage

But the music is nice

Has Prince ever covered any of these songs post 1996?

Johnny was played a few times.

.

The change of band and cutting out the swearing would have been a problem.

.

I'm guessing those who don't like this album/era/band, especially Tony, are probably older and stuck on the Rev and crew.

.

Tony was a local guy given an opportunity by P so who can blame him for giving it a go. He comes across really well in recent podcasts. Honest and funny

dodger said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

the rapping is atrocious, the lyrics are garbage

But the music is nice

Has Prince ever covered any of these songs post 1996?

Johnny was played a few times.

.

The change of band and cutting out the swearing would have been a problem.

.

I'm guessing those who don't like this album/era/band, especially Tony, are probably older and stuck on the Rev and crew.

.

Tony was a local guy given an opportunity by P so who can blame him for giving it a go. He comes across really well in recent podcasts. Honest and funny

I don't thiink that is true. It's 1 album. It's not even a 'PRINCE' album proper. It's not like Madhouse or What Time Is It? I mean Tony M is taking most of the lead. and the band is mostly playing. Why does a Prince fan have to like it? I cannot say I would like a Cat lead rap album of similar direction.

.

I think that is too 'cut n paste' to say 'older stuck on the Rev and crew' conclusion. I LOVE 1983-1986. ADORE IT. But I'm also a fan of the whole 1978-1989 period. I'm also a HUGE fan of the 1977demo yrs - 1979Prince period. I'm also a HUGE fan of the 1987-1988 period. I'm also a huge fan of the Gold Experience ERA. I'm also a HUGE 2001-2002 ONA -Rainbow Children fan.

.

I think there are a lot of reasons a person can dislike the Goldnigga album

It doesn't matter how Tony comes across in podcasts. I'm a fan of the Roots, Common and a lot of early-mid 90s underground(non West Coast) rap. It isn't a judgement of Tony Mosley, but Tony M the lead(rapper) on this 1 album/project.

OldFriends4Sale said:

dodger said:

Johnny was played a few times.

.

The change of band and cutting out the swearing would have been a problem.

.

I'm guessing those who don't like this album/era/band, especially Tony, are probably older and stuck on the Rev and crew.

.

Tony was a local guy given an opportunity by P so who can blame him for giving it a go. He comes across really well in recent podcasts. Honest and funny

I don't thiink that is true. It's 1 album. It's not even a 'PRINCE' album proper. It's not like Madhouse or What Time Is It? I mean Tony M is taking most of the lead. and the band is mostly playing. Why does a Prince fan have to like it? I cannot say I would like a Cat lead rap album of similar direction.

.

I think that is too 'cut n paste' to say 'older stuck on the Rev and crew' conclusion. I LOVE 1983-1986. ADORE IT. But I'm also a fan of the whole 1978-1989 period. I'm also a HUGE fan of the 1977demo yrs - 1979Prince period. I'm also a HUGE fan of the 1987-1988 period. I'm also a huge fan of the Gold Experience ERA. I'm also a HUGE 2001-2002 ONA -Rainbow Children fan.

.

I think there are a lot of reasons a person can dislike the Goldnigga album

It doesn't matter how Tony comes across in podcasts. I'm a fan of the Roots, Common and a lot of early-mid 90s underground(non West Coast) rap. It isn't a judgement of Tony Mosley, but Tony M the lead(rapper) on this 1 album/project.

Its a shame you have to explain this to the masses but god bless you for it for having the strength.

rdhull said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I don't thiink that is true. It's 1 album. It's not even a 'PRINCE' album proper. It's not like Madhouse or What Time Is It? I mean Tony M is taking most of the lead. and the band is mostly playing. Why does a Prince fan have to like it? I cannot say I would like a Cat lead rap album of similar direction.

.

I think that is too 'cut n paste' to say 'older stuck on the Rev and crew' conclusion. I LOVE 1983-1986. ADORE IT. But I'm also a fan of the whole 1978-1989 period. I'm also a HUGE fan of the 1977demo yrs - 1979Prince period. I'm also a HUGE fan of the 1987-1988 period. I'm also a huge fan of the Gold Experience ERA. I'm also a HUGE 2001-2002 ONA -Rainbow Children fan.

.

I think there are a lot of reasons a person can dislike the Goldnigga album

It doesn't matter how Tony comes across in podcasts. I'm a fan of the Roots, Common and a lot of early-mid 90s underground(non West Coast) rap. It isn't a judgement of Tony Mosley, but Tony M the lead(rapper) on this 1 album/project.

Its a shame you have to explain this to the masses but god bless you for it for having the strength.

Sadly that is the usual go to 'if a person doesn't like _ album' they are old Revolution fans' 45 isn't old... it's ageism I tell ya

.

I need a neighborhood bakery bought cupcake now, with real thick frosting and a snooze under an old oak tree

OldFriends4Sale said:

rdhull said:

Its a shame you have to explain this to the masses but god bless you for it for having the strength.

Sadly that is the usual go to 'if a person doesn't like _ album' they are old Revolution fans' 45 isn't old... it's ageism I tell ya

.

I need a neighborhood bakery bought cupcake now, with real thick frosting and a snooze under an old oak tree

or worse...its akin to those certain people who stated that black people only voted for Obama because he was black, negating all other reasons etc etc..which was seen here.

.

[Edited 5/22/19 8:00am]