databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I would probably say with a vision of the streets or ear for the streets lol I don't think Prince was every actually street

No, but Get It Up alongside More Bounce To The Ounce was all you'd hear blastin' in dem hoods' cars back in '81. He wasn't it but he knew da vibe to some extent. How many brothers do you read dissin' Gold Nigga? Most orgers are middle-upper middle class whites with Dylan/McCartney/Bowie/Sprinsteen/U2 expectations

lol that's just knowing and feeling the music. Yes he knew the vibe. As he came to say in his later years. I Am Music. My parents rocked those songs too, but definately weren't street lol lots of house parties..

.

How many? I don't read of many talking of the album. I guess we can ask those who said they weren't into it in this thread. rdhull...

.

As a mod, I can actually tell you that most orgers are not 'middle-upper class whites with...' the org is much more diverse than that. That's like the people who say the Mods are majority white American men lol that is so far from the truth.

...but that's all a different topic lol

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

True, Gold Nigga thru Tony and Exodus thru Sonny were P's 90's version of The Time, street level macho gangsta funk music We like to fancy P as this androgynous half-white half-black cosmopolitan hippie dude, and he was indeed that + middle class not South Bronx or West Campton, but he was still a brotha with roots in da street

I would probably say with a vision of the streets or ear for the streets lol I don't think Prince was every actually street

Prince was 100% musician, so he always belonged to that specific club, even while living away from his parents at a tender age, rich or poor. He's always had strong pride and identification with his Minneapolis Black community roots and appreciation/affinity for the broader Minnie community; tight-knit with both middle-class and scrappy elements a, like a lot of other Black communities scattered all around the USA.

>

That's kinda' where Goldnigga is coming from IMO.

Germanegro said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I would probably say with a vision of the streets or ear for the streets lol I don't think Prince was every actually street

Prince was 100% musician, so he always belonged to that specific club, even while living away from his parents at a tender age, rich or poor. He's always had strong pride and identification with his Minneapolis Black community roots and appreciation/affinity for the broader Minnie community; tight-knit with both middle-class and scrappy elements a, like a lot of other Black communities scattered all around the USA.

>

That's kinda' where Goldnigga is coming from IMO.

I know, but that is different from being 'street'. I know what you and databank are saying though.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Germanegro said:

Prince was 100% musician, so he always belonged to that specific club, even while living away from his parents at a tender age, rich or poor. He's always had strong pride and identification with his Minneapolis Black community roots and appreciation/affinity for the broader Minnie community; tight-knit with both middle-class and scrappy elements a, like a lot of other Black communities scattered all around the USA.

>

That's kinda' where Goldnigga is coming from IMO.

I know, but that is different from being 'street'. I know what you and databank are saying though.

OK--"street" to me means literally hanging around outside on the corner all day, so I agree with that! He'd be either practicing his craft, b'balling and hanging with his peeps a little, while playing as much music that he knew to everybody/anybody in the community before he made his break into industry. That's what I gather about his early habits.

Germanegro said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I know, but that is different from being 'street'. I know what you and databank are saying though.

OK--"street" to me means literally hanging around outside on the corner all day, so I agree with that! He'd be either practicing his craft, b'balling and hanging with his peeps a little, while playing as much music that he knew to everybody/anybody in the community before he made his break into industry. That's what I gather about his early habits.

yeah, dude was very studious too. And very neat according to Andre's mom lol

I mean people like Prince are models of what to do(and not) to get to your successful place

That's the stuff that should be taught in school early along with the ABC and 1 2 3s. That passion and drive.

OldFriends4Sale said:

Germanegro said:

OK--"street" to me means literally hanging around outside on the corner all day, so I agree with that! He'd be either practicing his craft, b'balling and hanging with his peeps a little, while playing as much music that he knew to everybody/anybody in the community before he made his break into industry. That's what I gather about his early habits.

yeah, dude was very studious too. And very neat according to Andre's mom lol

I mean people like Prince are models of what to do(and not) to get to your successful place

That's the stuff that should be taught in school early along with the ABC and 1 2 3s. That passion and drive.

That is where the envelope of community comes in to imbue the individual with the particular traits and characteristics that provide success. Love and support gets that done.

Germanegro said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

yeah, dude was very studious too. And very neat according to Andre's mom lol

I mean people like Prince are models of what to do(and not) to get to your successful place

That's the stuff that should be taught in school early along with the ABC and 1 2 3s. That passion and drive.

That is where the envelope of community comes in to imbue the individual with the particular traits and characteristics that provide success. Love and support gets that done.

I always think, what would have been different for him, if he wasn't 'passed around' as he was with his family...

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

No, but Get It Up alongside More Bounce To The Ounce was all you'd hear blastin' in dem hoods' cars back in '81. He wasn't it but he knew da vibe to some extent. How many brothers do you read dissin' Gold Nigga? Most orgers are middle-upper middle class whites with Dylan/McCartney/Bowie/Sprinsteen/U2 expectations

lol that's just knowing and feeling the music. Yes he knew the vibe. As he came to say in his later years. I Am Music. My parents rocked those songs too, but definately weren't street lol lots of house parties..

.

How many? I don't read of many talking of the album. I guess we can ask those who said they weren't into it in this thread. rdhull...

.

As a mod, I can actually tell you that most orgers are not 'middle-upper class whites with...' the org is much more diverse than that. That's like the people who say the Mods are majority white American men lol that is so far from the truth.

...but that's all a different topic lol

I feel ya, and P in 1981 wasn't P in 1993 in terms of innovation, i.e. leading instead of following, and also we can't compare Time albums heavily promoted by WB vs. a record sold to a few hundreds of people at live shows.

As for who's on the org IDK, I just know what I read;

Outside of 2gether which I love the rest of the albums an incohesive s-show. I like that he tried the gangsta vibe out but it didnt really suit him & it showed.

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I would probably say with a vision of the streets or ear for the streets lol I don't think Prince was every actually street

No, but Get It Up alongside More Bounce To The Ounce was all you'd hear blastin' in dem hoods' cars back in '81. He wasn't it but he knew da vibe to some extent. How many brothers do you read dissin' Gold Nigga? Most orgers are middle-upper middle class whites with Dylan/McCartney/Bowie/Sprinsteen/U2 expectations

While race doesn't mean a thing to me, in my experiences, I have not had a single serious hip hop fan listen to Gold era Prince rap without having a good laugh at how weak they felt it was. And the ones who had the most scorn for it were black, with one saying "Prince need to stick to that Guitar." And of the people who seem to love Prince's raps....again, only in my experience....are the "Pretty Fly For A White Guy" people who Offspring were making fun of. Simply White Guys who think they were street, while being a self parody of themselves...Still, some of the music of the era was awesome, but with Tony's awful shouting and horrible delivery were comical...and Tony M in a Star Trek Next Generation Uniform was always cause for a huge laugh.

And as someone else said, I could imagine it being a Time album to a point. At least half of it, but it would have to be totally getting the makeover to work. And the rapping would all have to go. In fact, as bad as Prince's Eminem clone, DVS was, he was still better than Tony. But that is not really much of a compliment. The Fonky Baldheads were not really all that horrible, but a legend of Prince's stature wasting time with them was almost as comical as hiring Tony in the first place.

databank said:

To add my 2 cents...

First, I like it a lot, there, I said it.

Now beyond this, I thought back then and still think to this day that it made sense for Prince to add his contribution to the acid jazz and jazz/rap fusion movements, that were really hip at the time.

What I found interesting in his apprach is that most, not all but most of those jazz/rap attemps used the same formula: use hip-hop beats as a fundation, add jazz/funk elements on top of it and rap vocals as your lead. Prince somewhat followed that formula on Carmen Electra but on Gold Nigga he chose to use jazz/funk beats as his fundation. Basically the album is a jazz/funk fusion record and the vocals, with the additional scratches and samples, were the only true hip hop elements.

Musically it's a very solid record, with a NPG on top of their game. As for Prince playing the "gangsta" game of course that seemed a bit odd because Prince and the Mpls scene mostly came from middle class families, not the hood like most NY and LA rappers, so P's streed cred was debatable, but IDK, I didn't take it too seriously. Just fun, nothing ethereal.

[Edited 5/14/19 20:14pm]

Love this take, I have the same interpretation.

.

This thread is another exhibit in how vocals completely dictate a segment of Prince's fans interpretations of his music. This is why, say, "101" was hardly ever mentioned before Prince's rough guide vocal take was found when the song itself had already been out for 30 years. This is why any thread or ranking of all Prince albums will have people either intentionally omitting those early 2001 instrumental projects like they don't even exist or automatically ranking them dead last in a big cluster. Or why songs in general from the girl group projects are dismissed almost by the mere thought.

.

Because, like you, I mean, uh... This thread would have anyone who had never heard Goldnigga thinking it was Prince's first full-fledged rap album. Prince gone Thug Life, holla if you hear him. I don't know what record everyone else is listening to, but I gotta think Tony M. is just such a pariah around here that even if he's speaking in almost beat-poetry-like tones over the crispist of jazzy funk grooves people just freak out and don't hear anyone else on the track.

.

Maybe it's pavlovian conditioning because his other appearances, sure, I'll accept that Tony's other appearances are normally a part of the "Prince chasing fads" argument, even if he kinda always did chase fads, it was just fads his fanbase already liked or were already into more (like new wave or rock). But I'd be curious given how much "rap" Prince is bashed how many people here would say they enjoy rap or hip-hop in other artists, but that's another thread....

.

Anyway, yeah, this album? Goldnigga, sure, definitely has rapping, but musically I feel like it's pretty damn far from any of the rap or hip-hop albums I have in my collection. Very smooth, very crisp, very tight... I feel like it's album full of that "Money Don't Matter Tonight" style/production/musical vibe. Honestly maybe my favorite Prince production in terms of "sound" he ever did (not songs, just sound), there I said it...

.

Maybe.

stillwaiting said:

databank said:

No, but Get It Up alongside More Bounce To The Ounce was all you'd hear blastin' in dem hoods' cars back in '81. He wasn't it but he knew da vibe to some extent. How many brothers do you read dissin' Gold Nigga? Most orgers are middle-upper middle class whites with Dylan/McCartney/Bowie/Sprinsteen/U2 expectations

While race doesn't mean a thing to me, in my experiences, I have not had a single serious hip hop fan listen to Gold era Prince rap without having a good laugh at how weak they felt it was. And the ones who had the most scorn for it were black, with one saying "Prince need to stick to that Guitar." And of the people who seem to love Prince's raps....again, only in my experience....are the "Pretty Fly For A White Guy" people who Offspring were making fun of. Simply White Guys who think they were street, while being a self parody of themselves...Still, some of the music of the era was awesome, but with Tony's awful shouting and horrible delivery were comical...and Tony M in a Star Trek Next Generation Uniform was always cause for a huge laugh.

And as someone else said, I could imagine it being a Time album to a point. At least half of it, but it would have to be totally getting the makeover to work. And the rapping would all have to go. In fact, as bad as Prince's Eminem clone, DVS was, he was still better than Tony. But that is not really much of a compliment. The Fonky Baldheads were not really all that horrible, but a legend of Prince's stature wasting time with them was almost as comical as hiring Tony in the first place.

I mean, his rap influence the way he integrated it was for the most part pretty cheesy, but I still gotta figure the people who absolutely can't stand it on any level 0 tolerance policy already don't care much for rap... Could be wrong, sure.

.

I kinda thought that was why it's always "chasing fads" or "following trends" only with regards to rap, because that segment of the audience still regards rap as a "fad" or "trend" 40+ years down the pike and counting when rock kinda ended up being the genre that went away and existing more "of a time" best remembered through older legacy artists and past songs.

[Edited 5/16/19 22:25pm]

WhisperingDandelions said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

stillwaiting said:

While race doesn't mean a thing to me, in my experiences, I have not had a single serious hip hop fan listen to Gold era Prince rap without having a good laugh at how weak they felt it was. And the ones who had the most scorn for it were black, with one saying "Prince need to stick to that Guitar." And of the people who seem to love Prince's raps....again, only in my experience....are the "Pretty Fly For A White Guy" people who Offspring were making fun of. Simply White Guys who think they were street, while being a self parody of themselves...Still, some of the music of the era was awesome, but with Tony's awful shouting and horrible delivery were comical...and Tony M in a Star Trek Next Generation Uniform was always cause for a huge laugh.

And as someone else said, I could imagine it being a Time album to a point. At least half of it, but it would have to be totally getting the makeover to work. And the rapping would all have to go. In fact, as bad as Prince's Eminem clone, DVS was, he was still better than Tony. But that is not really much of a compliment. The Fonky Baldheads were not really all that horrible, but a legend of Prince's stature wasting time with them was almost as comical as hiring Tony in the first place.

I mean, his rap influence the way he integrated it was for the most part pretty cheesy, but I still gotta figure the people who absolutely can't stand it on any level 0 tolerance policy already don't care much for rap... Could be wrong, sure.

.

I kinda thought that was why it's always "chasing fads" or "following trends" only with regards to rap, because that segment of the audience still regards rap as a "fad" or "trend" 40+ years down the pike and counting when rock kinda ended up being the genre that went away and existing more "of a time" best remembered through older legacy artists and past songs.

[Edited 5/16/19 22:25pm]

I was a big rap fan. Had around 100 rap cds, most from 1982-1997. When rap became 85% guns, weed, and more weed and more guns, I stopped as it seemed too shallow, and with Prince, it was like if U2 suddenly started making Big Band records...it just did not fit, and Tony was the perfect example of cheesy. And not cheesy good like Hair Pop Metal like Poison, cheesy like William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy doing rap. It just wreaked. But I understand some will like anything. But not a single one of Prince's rap songs come up when someone is discussing his legacy. Given the proper promotion and censorship, P Control and Days Of Wild were among his two best chances. Although you can argue Housequake is rap, and you can argue against it being rap, it was perhaps his best chance at being a hit among rap songs if you consider it rap. Again, like P Control, proper promotion and censorship are huge issues. And by this time, Prince and Warners teamed up to destroy Prince's career with absurd singles choices like Glam Slam and even one of his best songs, If I Was Your Girlfriend, which is just not a single. They may as well have released Dorothy Parker, as great as it was, would not likely have garnered much airplay.

Just to clarify what I meant because I don't want to offend or people to misunderstand my post above. What I meant when I said "I know what I read" I meant in terms of people's musical tastes/background, not mods. Maybe the most active orgers are not representative though.
I just realized most people here don't know what I look like or who I am, thanks to Org anonymity. I'm a heterosexual male white/caucasian European with christian and upper middle class roots. To some people, I am evil by birth and I have been accused of all sorts of things just for being born the way I was, which I consider a form a counter-racism/sexism as bad as racism and racism even if it's not "systemic", as those people say to justify it. I do not approve overvictimization of minorities as an excuse to give shit to hetero white males.

.
I also do not consider "race" (a term that science keeps proving absurd) determining in terms of musical tastes, obviously being born white or black or asian will not make you fancy a musical style over another. However it has been my experience that to some extent (and I insist on "to some extent" because of course mainstream media and public school tend to minimize those differences), things such as community, social class, cultural background and socio-economic environment (if not geographic, such as living in a big city center or the hood or the suburbs or a village deep in the countryside) have an influence in people's musical tastes. So I was maybe hasty in saying "Most orgers are middle-upper middle class whites" because who they are is not necessarily connected to their musical tastes and I apologize for this silly conclusion. However, at least when it comes to the most vocal orgers, the Dylan/McCartney/Bowie/Sprinsteen/U2 expectations is a statement I stand to. Not that it's wrong or bad, it's just not the best musical cultural standpoint IMHO to fairly evaluate Prince's works, even if it testifies of his success in crossovering as he wanted to from the beginning. Clearly, I know my capacity to fairly evaluate musical works that belong to genres I'm not too familiar with is limited. I love some rock and roll myself (I certainly am a Bowie fan for example), but I do not know my King Crimson from my Led Zeppelin.

.
Peace And sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my goal.

.

[Edited 5/17/19 10:26am]

stillwaiting said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

I mean, his rap influence the way he integrated it was for the most part pretty cheesy, but I still gotta figure the people who absolutely can't stand it on any level 0 tolerance policy already don't care much for rap... Could be wrong, sure.

.

I kinda thought that was why it's always "chasing fads" or "following trends" only with regards to rap, because that segment of the audience still regards rap as a "fad" or "trend" 40+ years down the pike and counting when rock kinda ended up being the genre that went away and existing more "of a time" best remembered through older legacy artists and past songs.

[Edited 5/16/19 22:25pm]

I was a big rap fan. Had around 100 rap cds, most from 1982-1997. When rap became 85% guns, weed, and more weed and more guns, I stopped as it seemed too shallow, and with Prince, it was like if U2 suddenly started making Big Band records...it just did not fit, and Tony was the perfect example of cheesy. And not cheesy good like Hair Pop Metal like Poison, cheesy like William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy doing rap. It just wreaked. But I understand some will like anything. But not a single one of Prince's rap songs come up when someone is discussing his legacy. Given the proper promotion and censorship, P Control and Days Of Wild were among his two best chances. Although you can argue Housequake is rap, and you can argue against it being rap, it was perhaps his best chance at being a hit among rap songs if you consider it rap. Again, like P Control, proper promotion and censorship are huge issues. And by this time, Prince and Warners teamed up to destroy Prince's career with absurd singles choices like Glam Slam and even one of his best songs, If I Was Your Girlfriend, which is just not a single. They may as well have released Dorothy Parker, as great as it was, would not likely have garnered much airplay.

Interesting. I woud not agree that anyone would ever at all truly beleive that Prince did Rap (or Hip-Hop), including Prince, himself.

>

While Prince would incorporate the element into his songs for a spell he was never a Hip-Hop artist with the rap at the core of his presentation. Never. Ever. Hip-Hop fans will broadly agree with this, am I right? I believe that this is so. Therefore, I don't understand the talk about "Prince's Hip-Hip or Rap albums" except as a set-up for (1) the fans who don't care for rap and like to point out how much they detest the expressions of Tony M. (or T.C. Ellis'--remember Graffiti Bridge), (2) fans who do not care for a male voice beyond Prince (aka Tony M.) being featured prominently in a "Prince" song, or (3) the Hip-Hop fans who wish to point out examples of a weak flow (Tony M.) Prince was following a trend, to be sure, being a cool brother showing some love for the people who were all about the rap.

>

I don't think that Tony M was terrible. He was what he was--maybe cartoonish or frivolous sometimes as far as the content and hollering in concerts, but I dig it still today. He said cool stuff about negotiating the music industry and standing for self. T.M. said his piece in a few albums, reciting a script that Prince approved. Maybe was "Chuck D. light" in as far as his tone, which to me as an appreciative listener isn't awful in and of itself, although people can have a point on how jarring a Chuck-D-voice can be while placed next to Prince's voice. Perhaps that is why Prince gave Tony an exactly 2 album spread of exposure on definitive "Prince" tracks, then gave him a full run on Goldnigga--the NPG project--to let him shine on his own before finally dropping him out to resume lead vox with the NPG band for their last NPG project NewPowerSoul.

>

It was a progression that Prince went through. Prince blended styles and moved between them whether or not you liked one--that was his thing. He had so many styles, and the desire to get them all out to the public for whatever reasons he had. His hitting upon the "Minneapolis Sound" was cool. Some people don't like when he got into his jazzy sounds. Not everybody has to like that 90s stuff, or any of it, I guess! Not everybody has to like Vanilla Ice, Young MC, or whatever.

>

Reading about the hate makes me chuckle. Man, hopefully Tony can, too!

'n' B

stillwaiting said:

databank said:

No, but Get It Up alongside More Bounce To The Ounce was all you'd hear blastin' in dem hoods' cars back in '81. He wasn't it but he knew da vibe to some extent. How many brothers do you read dissin' Gold Nigga? Most orgers are middle-upper middle class whites with Dylan/McCartney/Bowie/Sprinsteen/U2 expectations

While race doesn't mean a thing to me, in my experiences, I have not had a single serious hip hop fan listen to Gold era Prince rap without having a good laugh at how weak they felt it was. And the ones who had the most scorn for it were black, with one saying "Prince need to stick to that Guitar." And of the people who seem to love Prince's raps....again, only in my experience....are the "Pretty Fly For A White Guy" people who Offspring were making fun of. Simply White Guys who think they were street, while being a self parody of themselves...Still, some of the music of the era was awesome, but with Tony's awful shouting and horrible delivery were comical...and Tony M in a Star Trek Next Generation Uniform was always cause for a huge laugh.

And as someone else said, I could imagine it being a Time album to a point. At least half of it, but it would have to be totally getting the makeover to work. And the rapping would all have to go. In fact, as bad as Prince's Eminem clone, DVS was, he was still better than Tony. But that is not really much of a compliment. The Fonky Baldheads were not really all that horrible, but a legend of Prince's stature wasting time with them was almost as comical as hiring Tony in the first place.

I am not American so of course I cannot say what street level African-American hip-hop fans thought of Diamonds And Pearls, let alone Gold Nigga if they ever heard it, because I don't know any. It always seemed to me (from what I read) that P was respected in the hip-hop community, though, certainly not perceived as someone who "sold out". What I know is that here in Europe, I found that my generation's Black music fans were very receptive to P's 90's work, including the hip-hop material, and at the time maybe more receptive to it than to his 80's works (but let us not forget that my generation, in the 90's, was strongly rejecting anything 80's, to a ridiculous point - I was regularly mocked for fancying 80's music back then, and I didn't care because I knew it'd come back with a bang in the 2000's and it did).

.

One should also remember that nearly every African-American musicians integrated hip-hop to their music to some extent in the early 90's, that goes from Bobby Brown, Prince or MJ to Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock. Hip-hop was everywhere and it was an interesting new form of music and Black culture expression and I think this interest most musicians had for it often went beyond some cynical, trend-chasing, commercial interest.

.

While Prince certainly was chasing trends to some extent, and certainly was after charts and big bucks in the early 90's, artists often wish to stay relevant not only for that reason but also because you need to challenge yourself and stay up to date. Gold Nigga, for example, don't seem to me so much of an attempt to hit the charts (even when Prince hoped WB to release it on PP, it was not a very commercial record), but more of an attempt to address contemporary, street level, Black culture and musical trends (the hip ones more than the commercial ones), same way he had done it with The Time a decade earlier, and he'd do it again with Exodus 2 years later. Carmen Electra, on the other hand, was a disatrous attempt to create a commercially viable record, and I think you can definitely feel the difference between those two "rap" records. People also forget that while everyone was going all Teddy Riley, Prince chose to hit the world with 2 very organic records in 91-92: D&P and are mostly all live drums/live band, not so much programming. All Prince fans seem to remember is Tony M, who in fact played a relatively minimal part on those 2 records (and wasn't even properly featured on any of the D&P singles! So much for charts chasing with rap!), while I mostly see 2 records that are mostly live in the studio band efforts and as such going everything that new jack swing and hip-hop were doing in those days.

.

One thing I find quite fascinating when it comes to Prince and Black culture is the fact that up until circa 1992, you will hardly find a single Prince song that addresses racism or being Black in America. Then all of a sudden we get The Sacrifice Of Victor, Uncle Sam, Super Hero, Paris 1798430, Race, Color, We March, etc. I don't think Prince thought "I'm gonna address this to get better in the R&B charts", I think he was redifining himself in relation to his cultural heritage after years of making a point of being "above" it. Certainly, the Prince of the first decade was more universal at least in the Western world, in the sense that he addressed the hippie/post punk generation (late X/early Y) values, and such values strongly adhered to a single universal youth culture that went beyond race, gender, sexuality, etc.

.

Now I think we all agree that neither Tony M nor any other rapper Prince worked with in the 90's were Chuck D, Ice Cube or Eminem. I don't think it's a problem. I would not expect Prince to make historically significant hip-hop records any more than I would have expected Xpectation to be ranked alongside classic Miles, Coltrane or Ellington jazz classics. Prince made history once with the Minneapolis Sound and that's already more than most musicians can expect. I wouldn't have expected James Brown or Stevie Wonder to make historically significant electrofunk records in the 80's either, and while I personally think George and the P-Funk Allstars came-up with some ridiculously nasty shit in the 80's, I know their 80's work is notoriously unpopular among 70's P-Funk fans. Except for maybe Miles Davis, I can't really think of any musician who made historically significant, game changing records over the course of 2 eras in their career. This is why I cannot accept any argument such as "Gold Nigga" was not "Fear Of A Black Planet" or "The Chronic". Nor do I require every record I listen to to be a historically significant masterpiece in order for me to be able to enjoy it.

.

Now am I being subjective? Certainly. I like those records and I will defend them. But I also think that all things considered, some Prince fans are being harsher than required when you put things in perspective.

databank said:

stillwaiting said:

While race doesn't mean a thing to me, in my experiences, I have not had a single serious hip hop fan listen to Gold era Prince rap without having a good laugh at how weak they felt it was. And the ones who had the most scorn for it were black, with one saying "Prince need to stick to that Guitar." And of the people who seem to love Prince's raps....again, only in my experience....are the "Pretty Fly For A White Guy" people who Offspring were making fun of. Simply White Guys who think they were street, while being a self parody of themselves...Still, some of the music of the era was awesome, but with Tony's awful shouting and horrible delivery were comical...and Tony M in a Star Trek Next Generation Uniform was always cause for a huge laugh.

And as someone else said, I could imagine it being a Time album to a point. At least half of it, but it would have to be totally getting the makeover to work. And the rapping would all have to go. In fact, as bad as Prince's Eminem clone, DVS was, he was still better than Tony. But that is not really much of a compliment. The Fonky Baldheads were not really all that horrible, but a legend of Prince's stature wasting time with them was almost as comical as hiring Tony in the first place.

I am not American so of course I cannot say what street level African-American hip-hop fans thought of Diamonds And Pearls, let alone Gold Nigga if they ever heard it, because I don't know any. It always seemed to me (from what I read) that P was respected in the hip-hop community, though, certainly not perceived as someone who "sold out". What I know is that here in Europe, I found that my generation's Black music fans were very receptive to P's 90's work, including the hip-hop material, and at the time maybe more receptive to it than to his 80's works (but let us not forget that my generation, in the 90's, was strongly rejecting anything 80's, to a ridiculous point - I was regularly mocked for fancying 80's music back then, and I didn't care because I knew it'd come back with a bang in the 2000's and it did).

.

One should also remember that nearly every African-American musicians integrated hip-hop to their music to some extent in the early 90's, that goes from Bobby Brown, Prince or MJ to Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock. Hip-hop was everywhere and it was an interesting new form of music and Black culture expression and I think this interest most musicians had for it often went beyond some cynical, trend-chasing, commercial interest.

.

While Prince certainly was chasing trends to some extent, and certainly was after charts and big bucks in the early 90's, artists often wish to stay relevant not only for that reason but also because you need to challenge yourself and stay up to date. Gold Nigga, for example, don't seem to me so much of an attempt to hit the charts (even when Prince hoped WB to release it on PP, it was not a very commercial record), but more of an attempt to address contemporary, street level, Black culture and musical trends (the hip ones more than the commercial ones), same way he had done it with The Time a decade earlier, and he'd do it again with Exodus 2 years later. Carmen Electra, on the other hand, was a disatrous attempt to create a commercially viable record, and I think you can definitely feel the difference between those two "rap" records. People also forget that while everyone was going all Teddy Riley, Prince chose to hit the world with 2 very organic records in 91-92: D&P and are mostly all live drums/live band, not so much programming. All Prince fans seem to remember is Tony M, who in fact played a relatively minimal part on those 2 records (and wasn't even properly featured on any of the D&P singles! So much for charts chasing with rap!), while I mostly see 2 records that are mostly live in the studio band efforts and as such going everything that new jack swing and hip-hop were doing in those days.

.

One thing I find quite fascinating when it comes to Prince and Black culture is the fact that up until circa 1992, you will hardly find a single Prince song that addresses racism or being Black in America. Then all of a sudden we get The Sacrifice Of Victor, Uncle Sam, Super Hero, Paris 1798430, Race, Color, We March, etc. I don't think Prince thought "I'm gonna address this to get better in the R&B charts", I think he was redifining himself in relation to his cultural heritage after years of making a point of being "above" it. Certainly, the Prince of the first decade was more universal at least in the Western world, in the sense that he addressed the hippie/post punk generation (late X/early Y) values, and such values strongly adhered to a single universal youth culture that went beyond race, gender, sexuality, etc.

.

Now I think we all agree that neither Tony M nor any other rapper Prince worked with in the 90's were Chuck D, Ice Cube or Eminem. I don't think it's a problem. I would not expect Prince to make historically significant hip-hop records any more than I would have expected Xpectation to be ranked alongside classic Miles, Coltrane or Ellington jazz classics. Prince made history once with the Minneapolis Sound and that's already more than most musicians can expect. I wouldn't have expected James Brown or Stevie Wonder to make historically significant electrofunk records in the 80's either, and while I personally think George and the P-Funk Allstars came-up with some ridiculously nasty shit in the 80's, I know their 80's work is notoriously unpopular among 70's P-Funk fans. Except for maybe Miles Davis, I can't really think of any musician who made historically significant, game changing records over the course of 2 eras in their career. This is why I cannot accept any argument such as "Gold Nigga" was not "Fear Of A Black Planet" or "The Chronic". Nor do I require every record I listen to to be a historically significant masterpiece in order for me to be able to enjoy it.

.

Now am I being subjective? Certainly. I like those records and I will defend them. But I also think that all things considered, some Prince fans are being harsher than required when you put things in perspective.

Actually he did make race references post 1992, but even after a spiritual reference was alway more dominate, even more than sexual.

Tony M told people in the band behind Prince's back that Prince wasn't 'Black enough' whatever that means. And that he was going to 'shove black down that ni&&as throat'

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

I am not American so of course I cannot say what street level African-American hip-hop fans thought of Diamonds And Pearls, let alone Gold Nigga if they ever heard it, because I don't know any. It always seemed to me (from what I read) that P was respected in the hip-hop community, though, certainly not perceived as someone who "sold out". What I know is that here in Europe, I found that my generation's Black music fans were very receptive to P's 90's work, including the hip-hop material, and at the time maybe more receptive to it than to his 80's works (but let us not forget that my generation, in the 90's, was strongly rejecting anything 80's, to a ridiculous point - I was regularly mocked for fancying 80's music back then, and I didn't care because I knew it'd come back with a bang in the 2000's and it did).

.

One should also remember that nearly every African-American musicians integrated hip-hop to their music to some extent in the early 90's, that goes from Bobby Brown, Prince or MJ to Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock. Hip-hop was everywhere and it was an interesting new form of music and Black culture expression and I think this interest most musicians had for it often went beyond some cynical, trend-chasing, commercial interest.

.

While Prince certainly was chasing trends to some extent, and certainly was after charts and big bucks in the early 90's, artists often wish to stay relevant not only for that reason but also because you need to challenge yourself and stay up to date. Gold Nigga, for example, don't seem to me so much of an attempt to hit the charts (even when Prince hoped WB to release it on PP, it was not a very commercial record), but more of an attempt to address contemporary, street level, Black culture and musical trends (the hip ones more than the commercial ones), same way he had done it with The Time a decade earlier, and he'd do it again with Exodus 2 years later. Carmen Electra, on the other hand, was a disatrous attempt to create a commercially viable record, and I think you can definitely feel the difference between those two "rap" records. People also forget that while everyone was going all Teddy Riley, Prince chose to hit the world with 2 very organic records in 91-92: D&P and are mostly all live drums/live band, not so much programming. All Prince fans seem to remember is Tony M, who in fact played a relatively minimal part on those 2 records (and wasn't even properly featured on any of the D&P singles! So much for charts chasing with rap!), while I mostly see 2 records that are mostly live in the studio band efforts and as such going everything that new jack swing and hip-hop were doing in those days.

.

One thing I find quite fascinating when it comes to Prince and Black culture is the fact that up until circa 1992, you will hardly find a single Prince song that addresses racism or being Black in America. Then all of a sudden we get The Sacrifice Of Victor, Uncle Sam, Super Hero, Paris 1798430, Race, Color, We March, etc. I don't think Prince thought "I'm gonna address this to get better in the R&B charts", I think he was redifining himself in relation to his cultural heritage after years of making a point of being "above" it. Certainly, the Prince of the first decade was more universal at least in the Western world, in the sense that he addressed the hippie/post punk generation (late X/early Y) values, and such values strongly adhered to a single universal youth culture that went beyond race, gender, sexuality, etc.

.

Now I think we all agree that neither Tony M nor any other rapper Prince worked with in the 90's were Chuck D, Ice Cube or Eminem. I don't think it's a problem. I would not expect Prince to make historically significant hip-hop records any more than I would have expected Xpectation to be ranked alongside classic Miles, Coltrane or Ellington jazz classics. Prince made history once with the Minneapolis Sound and that's already more than most musicians can expect. I wouldn't have expected James Brown or Stevie Wonder to make historically significant electrofunk records in the 80's either, and while I personally think George and the P-Funk Allstars came-up with some ridiculously nasty shit in the 80's, I know their 80's work is notoriously unpopular among 70's P-Funk fans. Except for maybe Miles Davis, I can't really think of any musician who made historically significant, game changing records over the course of 2 eras in their career. This is why I cannot accept any argument such as "Gold Nigga" was not "Fear Of A Black Planet" or "The Chronic". Nor do I require every record I listen to to be a historically significant masterpiece in order for me to be able to enjoy it.

.

Now am I being subjective? Certainly. I like those records and I will defend them. But I also think that all things considered, some Prince fans are being harsher than required when you put things in perspective.

Actually he did make race references post 1992, but even after a spiritual reference was alway more dominate, even more than sexual.

Tony M told people in the band behind Prince's back that Prince wasn't 'Black enough' whatever that means. And that he was going to 'shove black down that ni&&as throat'

Yeah I remember that quote, I believe in the Possessed book. I don't have a clue what Tony was about but in the end Prince did what he wanted like he always did.

stillwaiting said:

WhisperingDandelions said:

I mean, his rap influence the way he integrated it was for the most part pretty cheesy, but I still gotta figure the people who absolutely can't stand it on any level 0 tolerance policy already don't care much for rap... Could be wrong, sure.

.

I kinda thought that was why it's always "chasing fads" or "following trends" only with regards to rap, because that segment of the audience still regards rap as a "fad" or "trend" 40+ years down the pike and counting when rock kinda ended up being the genre that went away and existing more "of a time" best remembered through older legacy artists and past songs.

[Edited 5/16/19 22:25pm]

I was a big rap fan. Had around 100 rap cds, most from 1982-1997. When rap became 85% guns, weed, and more weed and more guns, I stopped as it seemed too shallow, and with Prince, it was like if U2 suddenly started making Big Band records...it just did not fit, and Tony was the perfect example of cheesy. And not cheesy good like Hair Pop Metal like Poison, cheesy like William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy doing rap. It just wreaked. But I understand some will like anything. But not a single one of Prince's rap songs come up when someone is discussing his legacy. Given the proper promotion and censorship, P Control and Days Of Wild were among his two best chances. Although you can argue Housequake is rap, and you can argue against it being rap, it was perhaps his best chance at being a hit among rap songs if you consider it rap. Again, like P Control, proper promotion and censorship are huge issues. And by this time, Prince and Warners teamed up to destroy Prince's career with absurd singles choices like Glam Slam and even one of his best songs, If I Was Your Girlfriend, which is just not a single. They may as well have released Dorothy Parker, as great as it was, would not likely have garnered much airplay.

Nor should it and not should we expect it. Prince's significant historical impact was definitely circa 80-88. See what i wrote about all this above.

To databank's comment: Yeah, that!

>

To OF4S's comment: Prince had a lot of awakenings--his Warner Brothers Records shakeup probably had something to do with that, to help him quickly figure out what was real to him in terms of what was truly connecting to his life--his ownership of work and his representation of self and if/how to portray that in his craft. He did his utopic, gennre blending hippie, new wave 'n' punk-funk stylings, then had some other insights to drive his creativity after all of that, chasing popularity nonwithstanding. I think that Prince had something to say about having made a mistake with going in the direction that he did with Parade, the Under the Cherry Moon soundtrack. After having concluded that work then conducting his farewell-fling and bucking of The Revolution with his S.O.T., and going through his spiritual galvanization with Lovesexy and Graffitti Bridge, he transitioned from there to more social elements of the life that led him back to community and hence landed him into the NPG and Tony M. After concluding the heights of one acheivement, you have to land somewhere.

>

I'd say that the things T.M. was saying about Prince were things that Prince was already thinking to himself, in a way, at the time--"Black enough" meaning creating music more in line with the Hip-Hop and R&B sound of the day that the greater part of the community were expressing. So while Prince moved into his "pop" money-making mode he took the opportunity to ease into the new musical culture that was coursing all around and turned off a bunch of fans--those who call him a "chaser" supposedly lowering his standard and such--in that process. Personally, I feel that he had a right to call that move. Not all do, apparently.

>

OldFriends4Sale said:

databank said:

I am not American so of course I cannot say what street level African-American hip-hop fans thought of Diamonds And Pearls, let alone Gold Nigga if they ever heard it, because I don't know any. It always seemed to me (from what I read) that P was respected in the hip-hop community, though, certainly not perceived as someone who "sold out". What I know is that here in Europe, I found that my generation's Black music fans were very receptive to P's 90's work, including the hip-hop material, and at the time maybe more receptive to it than to his 80's works (but let us not forget that my generation, in the 90's, was strongly rejecting anything 80's, to a ridiculous point - I was regularly mocked for fancying 80's music back then, and I didn't care because I knew it'd come back with a bang in the 2000's and it did).

.

One should also remember that nearly every African-American musicians integrated hip-hop to their music to some extent in the early 90's, that goes from Bobby Brown, Prince or MJ to Miles Davis and Herbie Hancock. Hip-hop was everywhere and it was an interesting new form of music and Black culture expression and I think this interest most musicians had for it often went beyond some cynical, trend-chasing, commercial interest.

.

While Prince certainly was chasing trends to some extent, and certainly was after charts and big bucks in the early 90's, artists often wish to stay relevant not only for that reason but also because you need to challenge yourself and stay up to date. Gold Nigga, for example, don't seem to me so much of an attempt to hit the charts (even when Prince hoped WB to release it on PP, it was not a very commercial record), but more of an attempt to address contemporary, street level, Black culture and musical trends (the hip ones more than the commercial ones), same way he had done it with The Time a decade earlier, and he'd do it again with Exodus 2 years later. Carmen Electra, on the other hand, was a disatrous attempt to create a commercially viable record, and I think you can definitely feel the difference between those two "rap" records. People also forget that while everyone was going all Teddy Riley, Prince chose to hit the world with 2 very organic records in 91-92: D&P and are mostly all live drums/live band, not so much programming. All Prince fans seem to remember is Tony M, who in fact played a relatively minimal part on those 2 records (and wasn't even properly featured on any of the D&P singles! So much for charts chasing with rap!), while I mostly see 2 records that are mostly live in the studio band efforts and as such going everything that new jack swing and hip-hop were doing in those days.

.

One thing I find quite fascinating when it comes to Prince and Black culture is the fact that up until circa 1992, you will hardly find a single Prince song that addresses racism or being Black in America. Then all of a sudden we get The Sacrifice Of Victor, Uncle Sam, Super Hero, Paris 1798430, Race, Color, We March, etc. I don't think Prince thought "I'm gonna address this to get better in the R&B charts", I think he was redifining himself in relation to his cultural heritage after years of making a point of being "above" it. Certainly, the Prince of the first decade was more universal at least in the Western world, in the sense that he addressed the hippie/post punk generation (late X/early Y) values, and such values strongly adhered to a single universal youth culture that went beyond race, gender, sexuality, etc.

.

Now I think we all agree that neither Tony M nor any other rapper Prince worked with in the 90's were Chuck D, Ice Cube or Eminem. I don't think it's a problem. I would not expect Prince to make historically significant hip-hop records any more than I would have expected Xpectation to be ranked alongside classic Miles, Coltrane or Ellington jazz classics. Prince made history once with the Minneapolis Sound and that's already more than most musicians can expect. I wouldn't have expected James Brown or Stevie Wonder to make historically significant electrofunk records in the 80's either, and while I personally think George and the P-Funk Allstars came-up with some ridiculously nasty shit in the 80's, I know their 80's work is notoriously unpopular among 70's P-Funk fans. Except for maybe Miles Davis, I can't really think of any musician who made historically significant, game changing records over the course of 2 eras in their career. This is why I cannot accept any argument such as "Gold Nigga" was not "Fear Of A Black Planet" or "The Chronic". Nor do I require every record I listen to to be a historically significant masterpiece in order for me to be able to enjoy it.

.

Now am I being subjective? Certainly. I like those records and I will defend them. But I also think that all things considered, some Prince fans are being harsher than required when you put things in perspective.

Actually he did make race references post 1992, but even after a spiritual reference was alway more dominate, even more than sexual.

Tony M told people in the band behind Prince's back that Prince wasn't 'Black enough' whatever that means. And that he was going to 'shove black down that ni&&as throat'

databank said:

stillwaiting said:

I was a big rap fan. Had around 100 rap cds, most from 1982-1997. When rap became 85% guns, weed, and more weed and more guns, I stopped as it seemed too shallow, and with Prince, it was like if U2 suddenly started making Big Band records...it just did not fit, and Tony was the perfect example of cheesy. And not cheesy good like Hair Pop Metal like Poison, cheesy like William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy doing rap. It just wreaked. But I understand some will like anything. But not a single one of Prince's rap songs come up when someone is discussing his legacy. Given the proper promotion and censorship, P Control and Days Of Wild were among his two best chances. Although you can argue Housequake is rap, and you can argue against it being rap, it was perhaps his best chance at being a hit among rap songs if you consider it rap. Again, like P Control, proper promotion and censorship are huge issues. And by this time, Prince and Warners teamed up to destroy Prince's career with absurd singles choices like Glam Slam and even one of his best songs, If I Was Your Girlfriend, which is just not a single. They may as well have released Dorothy Parker, as great as it was, would not likely have garnered much airplay.

Nor should it and not should we expect it. Prince's significant historical impact was definitely circa 80-88. See what i wrote about all this above.

It should, as a part of the complete works of the man, don't you think? It is a part of who he was. His legacy is everything that he is.

databank said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

I would probably say with a vision of the streets or ear for the streets lol I don't think Prince was every actually street

No, but Get It Up alongside More Bounce To The Ounce was all you'd hear blastin' in dem hoods' cars back in '81. He wasn't it but he knew da vibe to some extent. How many brothers do you read dissin' Gold Nigga? Most orgers are middle-upper middle class whites with Dylan/McCartney/Bowie/Sprinsteen/U2 expectations

Yep.

skywalker said:

databank said:

No, but Get It Up alongside More Bounce To The Ounce was all you'd hear blastin' in dem hoods' cars back in '81. He wasn't it but he knew da vibe to some extent. How many brothers do you read dissin' Gold Nigga? Most orgers are middle-upper middle class whites with Dylan/McCartney/Bowie/Sprinsteen/U2 expectations

Yep.

no of that is Yep lol

Germanegro said:

databank said:

Nor should it and not should we expect it. Prince's significant historical impact was definitely circa 80-88. See what i wrote about all this above.

It should, as a part of the complete works of the man, don't you think? It is a part of who he was. His legacy is everything that he is.

but it isn't a 'shining' light of his legacy.

Yes it all should be discussed.

But even Prince ignored or tried to ignore parts of his career/legacy

Germanegro said:

databank said:

Nor should it and not should we expect it. Prince's significant historical impact was definitely circa 80-88. See what i wrote about all this above.

It should, as a part of the complete works of the man, don't you think? It is a part of who he was. His legacy is everything that he is.

That would be like saying "I never hear David Bowie's late 90's drum and bass works being mentioned as a significant aspect of his legacy" or "I never hear Rickie Lee Jones' 1997 trip-hop album..." or "Kate Bush' ambient album from 2011", etc.

.

I love those records, I actually even think they're awesome, but clearly Bowie is not going to be remembered as a historical figure in drum and bass history alongside Goldie, neither will Jones be remembered as a major, game changing trip-hop artist in the lines of Massive Attack, Morcheeba or Tricky, neither will Kate Bush be remembered as the new Brian Eno. You also don't hear people mentioning George Clinton's rap works from the 90's as the most significant part of his heritage. And so on and so on... Each artist has a peak where they define their own style and, in some case, influence a whole generation of artists.

.

Now I'm known here for having been a strong defender of everything Prince did post-WB, and I still think that it is a pity that most artists' works, as a whole, are shadowed by their peak years. I try to apprehend an artists' works as a whole journey and I usually find great qualities in their post peak years. That's particularly true for Prince, whose works I followed year after year for three decades, and I never lost interest. But expecting Jughead to be put on the same level as When Doves Cry is silly. Prince did not become famous and did not influence a whole generation of musicians because of Jughead. Prince did not make history with Jughead, he made history with When Doves Cry. And Earthling will never be perceived the way Ziggy Stardust is being perceived either because you don't have a whole generation of rock musician citing Earthling as a major influence. There's nothing you can do about it. It doesn't mean every artist's later works are uninteresting or lame either.

^ To clarify my thoughts even further, Prince was never and never will be seen as a historical, infuential hip-hop artist because he was not, and why should he? Neither can we expect Blue Light to put him on the same level as Bob Marley when it comes to reggae. It makes no sense.

OldFriends4Sale said:

skywalker said:

Yep.

no of that is Yep lol

Certainly it is. This conversation about the album is full of the (overt) subtext of race, people's preconceived notions about hiphop/rap, gender roles, class, and the neat little boxes we try to stuff Prince's music into.

-

Meaning: People of a certain age and background don't think Prince should have ever incorporated rap into his music. They think the artform is beneath him, they think he isn't black enough, they think he isn't street enough. That's like saying he wasn't british enough to incorporate new wave or white enough to play hard rock. It's bullshit. It's racist and classist.

-

If Prince could dabble in jazz* and classical, surely he is welcome to dabble in hip hop. "Gett Off" is proof of that. It's a stone cold classic banger/monster jam for the ages...and it's dripping with hip hop and Tony M.

-

*Would a jazz lover say that the Madhouse albums were "real" or "pure" jazz? Nope. Eric Leeds says as much. Yet, jazz doesn't have the stigma of hip hop so fans give Prince a free pass for being "artsy." The truth is Goldnigga is a fun, silly, side project like Vanity 6 or Madhouse. I've said it before, a lot of Prince fans aren't as openminded as they like to pretend they are...

[Edited 5/17/19 12:53pm]

skywalker said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

no of that is Yep lol

Certainly it is. This coversation about the album is full of the (overt) subtext of race, people's preconceived notions about hiphop/rap, gender roles, class, and the neat little boxes we try to stuff Prince's music into.

-

Meaning: People of a certain age and background don't think Prince should have ever incorporated rap into his music. They think the artform is beneath him, they think he isn't black enough, they think he isn't street enough. That's like saying he wasn't british enough to incorporate new wave or white enough to play hard rock. It's bullshit. It's racist and classist.

-

If Prince could dabble in jazz* and classical, surely he is welcome to dabble in hip hop. "Gett Off" is proof of that. It's a stone cold classic banger/monster jam dripping with hip hop and Tony M.

-

*Would a jazz lover say that the Madhouse albums were "real" or "pure" jazz? Nope. Eric Leeds says as much. Yet, jazz doesn't have the stigma of hip hop so fans give Prince a free pass for being "artsy." The truth is Goldnigga is a fun, silly, side project like Vanity 6 or Madhouse. I've said it before, a lot of Prince fans aren't as openminded as they like to pretend they are...

How many brothers do you read dissin' Gold Nigga? Most orgers are middle-upper middle class whites with Dylan/McCartney/Bowie/Sprinsteen/U2 expectations

how many brothers are dissing Gold Ni&&a? How many brothers even know about Gold Ni&&a?

How many 'brothers' on the Org are dissing Gold Ni&&a, Rdhull doesn't like it for sure lol

Also Most orgers are not middle upper middle class white people.

Did you mean to reply Yep to the post you replied to?

why turn this into a black/white thing???