Neversin said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Sounds lilke you already have more than enough to enjoy in your vast collection ...so...shut up already!

Don't worry, you won't hear me ever again about these releases, outtakes or whatever...
You lot are just not worth it and deserve the garbage you get and praise....
Obviously people here just don't care about his legacy, the history and accurate representation of his recordings... So be it...

Neversin.

Sorry you feel that way, and I don't agree that we don't care about his legacy or the history. Speaking for myself only, I don't understand how you or others can be 100% sure that the recordings released aren't legitimate - that's all. Perhaps I'm being thick, and I'll admit to not knowing the particulars of the history or perhaps of recording processes as you would.

Neversin said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Sounds lilke you already have more than enough to enjoy in your vast collection ...so...shut up already!

Don't worry, you won't hear me ever again about these releases, outtakes or whatever...
You lot are just not worth it and deserve the garbage you get and praise....
Obviously people here just don't care about his legacy, the history and accurate representation of his recordings... So be it...

Neversin.

Actually, a lot of us here appreciate your insight, Neversin. Don't let the noisy fanatics get in the way of telling the truth.

Unfortunately, this kind of shit happens with artist's estates. Michael Jackson and 2Pac are perfect examples of that.

Prince refusing to sleep with anyone unless they are of Michelangelo's persuasion has got to be his queerest moment, on a compilation that is packed with them.

Maybe I'm just easy to please but here is my Facebook post about "Originals"


Listening to Prince's vocals on songs I know so well from other artists is surreal and overwhelming to me. This is, by far, my favorite posthumous release yet. Even some of the songs I had on bootlegs for decades are different. It's actually his vocals on "Manic Monday"!! Definitely happy with this release!!

Moonbeam said:

databank said:

OK, I finally found the explanations I gave about this. It was actually earlier in this very thread

.

"Of course, I am always the first one to ask for evidence and sources so here's what I know:

.

- Two people who have connections with WB/the Estate have told me the same story, and they don't know each other. The first told it to me on a tacit confidential basis, the second one didn't care and that's when I began speaking about it openly. I of course have no absolute proof that these people have the connections they claim to have or that they're telling the truth, but I have every reason, from our private conversations to their public posts to what other people in the community have told me about them, to believe they're genuine. The first person told me that it was a mix from both P's and the Family's versions, while the second, who apparently has a closer source, later told me that P's version was from cassette and The Family's version from multitracks.

.

- Interestingly, Kares who is a sound engineer (again, I have no definitive proof of that but no reason to doubt it from our numerous conversations) claims he can definitely recognize a cassette "sound" on the 2018 version. I say "interestingly" because I had not told him that my second source had told me that before he came up with this theory here on the org.

.

- The Nilsen/Tudahl research have revealed that the recording sessions happened in that order Prince/Eric -> Paul/Susannah -> Clare Fischer. The Family background background vocals were recorded at the same time as Paul's lead vocals, and by the time Clare Fischer's strings were added, Prince's lead vocals were long gone. While not impossible, it seems very unlikely that super busy Prince would have bothered having an engineer retroactively adding the Family vocals and strings to his own version in 1985, talking about a song that had zero historical significance back then (before Sinead) and that he apparently never even considered releasing in this version after it became an international hit (when Miles Davis asked for a version of it, Prince told Eric to rerecord one from scratch instead of offering the original multi-tracks to Davis, and when Prince finally released it, it was a live cut).

.

- The mix is very, extremely different from both the original Family demo (streamed by Paul on his website in 2002 and widely bootlegged ever since) and every Prince song featuring strings from 85-86. In those early Clare Fischer collabs, Prince would mix the strings waaaaay much louder. On NC2U 2018, you can barely hear them by comparison. Overall and strings aside, the mix is quite different from Paul's 2002 version while the only musical difference between both tracks is the lead vocals. And of course the bootleg we have lacks both orchestra and Family vocals.

.

- And IIRC it was Alan Leeds who claimed a decade ago or so that P's original vocals had been erased from the multitracks, leading to the belief that no copy had survived until a cassette-sourced bootleg appeared 2 years ago or so. This story seems to corroborate everything we have above.

.

You may say this is all circumstantial evidence and testimonies by witnesses who may not be who they claim they are, and at the end of the day I'd have to agree with you. But I believe we have a solid case here, particularly if you add it to the apparent lack of care that WB and the Estate have displayed with other releases (I'm not gonna get into that here but so far there isn't a single posthumous release with WB that's been handled properly).

.

So this is my case. You may not be convinced and I'll respect that in lack of definitive proof, but I believe the case to be quite solid."

.

[Edited 6/7/19 3:39am]

Thanks for sharing this! I'm glad you acknowledge it's not definitive proof. How do we know the Family backing vocals were recorded at the same time as Paul's original? It's certainly plausible, but it also seems plausible that Prince could have had them record backing vocals over his lead vocal as he clearly intended the track to go to them.

At some point I'm not sure what to reply to that because it's really no secret in the community. Per Nilsen and the Uptown staff have documented Prince's recording sessions in countless issues of Uptown magazine and several books, and Duane Tudahl has published the best possibly documented and most detailed book ever about the 1983-1984 sessions. Princevault is mostly, faithfully based on the above research. Their research and the way they did it is transparent, they've always been very clear about how they obtained the data they obtained and the possible flaws or gaps in the research, so it's by no means perfect and it's happened before that new research or evidence contradicts past information, but it's super-solid academic research and in lack of contradiction, the Uptown/Nilsen/Tudahl can be considered as reliable and accurate as can be. Read Duane's book, it's a fascinating book and it speaks for itself about the "how do we know what we know" part... http://www.duanetudahl.com/welcome

.

Now I pleaded my case and if you or anyone, in view of all the elements I provided, are not convinced, I will accept and respect that, but I will keep bringing it up until contradicted by new evidence, because I'm convinced it's a very solid case.

[Edited 6/7/19 4:12am]

Neversin said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Sounds lilke you already have more than enough to enjoy in your vast collection ...so...shut up already!

Don't worry, you won't hear me ever again about these releases, outtakes or whatever...
You lot are just not worth it and deserve the garbage you get and praise....
Obviously people here just don't care about his legacy, the history and accurate representation of his recordings... So be it...

Neversin.

A couple of people are being rude, but others are asking legitimate questions from a point of interest about the subject.

Kares said:

databank said:

Honestly I can't believe that, nor understand why fans are arguing about this. We should all stand together against the Estate messing with Prince tapes as a matter of principle, even if the result may be pleasant to hear. I'm baffled by the fact that some fans here don't care, or approve. And even if one isn't personally annoyed by it, they could at least understand why other fans are, it's no rocket science.

.

What Neversin said is that some of those mixes are fake. We know it is the case at least with NC2U so I don't see why it wouldn't with several other tracks. True, there's no harm in releasing Prince's last mix before the song was overdubbed and finished for release instread of an earlier, barebone mix, but the keyword here is Prince's last mix. Not Michael Howe's 2019 remix that uses Prince's last vocal mix and arbitrarily adds later overdubs from the released mix to "finish" or "polish" it. And they're not even doing a good job at it: the way the vocals and strings are mixed in NC2U 2018 do not even attempt to imitate the way they were mixed in the Family version. But regardless, good job or bad job, there shouldn't be any job at all. There is no need for it.

.

So seriously, everyone, we're together in this, why argue? We all love Prince's music, we all want it out, and when Prince passed the consensus among us (there were threads about it) was that Prince's unreleased material was to be released as such, not remixed by Justin Timberlake or Michael Howe for that matter. Let us not allow the Estate divide and conquer the community by arguing among ouselves while the Estate is trashing the vault, let's argue with the Estate and complain as consumers who feel cheated by a company not even saying what they do (because if at least they'd admit it, you'd know what you purchase, but I don't recall a single official statement admitting that NC2U was fake), not for the purpose of trashing them but in order to eventually get them to give us the product we want, i.e. Prince's music as he left it, and to have them be open and honest about any modification to the original tapes.

.

Peace

.
I am not arguing. I'm simply enjoying the music for now and yes, I am very happy to have these tracks.
.
Being happy and being able to enjoy it (to the point of 2 of them literally tearing me up) does NOT mean that I don't see the problems. There are many things I would've done differently and I agree with most issues raised by Neversin and you. It is obvious that at least some tracks (Manic Monday, Holly Rock definitely, but probably others too) are new or altered mixes and edits bother me a lot too, even if it's just something like the missing drum intro of Make-Up.
.

However, after all the crap for the past 3 years, my expectations weren't exactly running wild. I think it was a safe bet we were in for disappointments. But right now I'm just happy that at least for the first time in 3 years, we got 14 tracks straight from the vault.

.
We can go on and on about how a small team of us could do a far better job at curating the vault and producing releases and yes, I do believe we would and I also do believe Prince's legacy would deserve a far more respectful and knowledgable approach than what we're witnessing. But right now I'm listening to the music and for that, I'm happy.

.

We're cool and I don't think there is any disagreement between us. I was talking about people getting mad at each other around this release, but you've never been the kind to give people shit here and I love you for that

There was a link to a French publications interview with Michael Howe posted earlier in this thread. In that he says, (courtesy of Google translate):

There have been cases where the only tape available with the final version we had was on tape. And the tape is not the ideal source for the mastering process. So we had to rework with the original tracks to mix them so as to reproduce the song identical to what was on this tape. It allows to have the same version of this song which was on this support but with an optimal sound quality.

Sometimes there has been a tape available with a final version. They've then mixed from masters to reproduce what's heard in this final version. This seems fine to me.

Is it possible that this is what happened with NC2U? They had a tape which was used in the process and the released version was based off of that final tape version as a guide. So while the final version we got didn't exist as it's own master any more, all they did was reconstruct a version which Prince had previously done using the best possible sources to get the result?

Neversin said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Sounds lilke you already have more than enough to enjoy in your vast collection ...so...shut up already!

Don't worry, you won't hear me ever again about these releases, outtakes or whatever...
You lot are just not worth it and deserve the garbage you get and praise....
Obviously people here just don't care about his legacy, the history and accurate representation of his recordings... So be it...

Neversin.

Don't let a couple of vocal people here chase you away, we apreciate your posts here and information you provide. Without people like you here we wouldn't even know what is out there among elite collectors or what is different on these tracks. Again we do apreciate you posts.
Please keep posting info.

databank said:

TheEnglishGent said:

There was a link to a French publications interview with Michael Howe posted earlier in this thread. In that he says, (courtesy of Google translate):

There have been cases where the only tape available with the final version we had was on tape. And the tape is not the ideal source for the mastering process. So we had to rework with the original tracks to mix them so as to reproduce the song identical to what was on this tape. It allows to have the same version of this song which was on this support but with an optimal sound quality.

Sometimes there has been a tape available with a final version. They've then mixed from masters to reproduce what's heard in this final version. This seems fine to me.

Is it possible that this is what happened with NC2U? They had a tape which was used in the process and the released version was based off of that final tape version as a guide. So while the final version we got didn't exist as it's own master any more, all they did was reconstruct a version which Prince had previously done using the best possible sources to get the result?

Yes I've read that. To be honest I'd like them in such cases to release both the casstte mixdown and the reconstructed pristine mix for comparison, but of course I realize that it's complicated from a commercial perspective as it may confuse mainstream listeners. Maybe on future releases aimed at hardcore fans?

In the end I have to acknowledge that such a reconstruction process may be necessary when it comes only to the mix, because of course the stuff needs to be mixed. In the case of NC2U it appears the cassette was all they had at all, and that's OK but still does not explain the strings and background vocals, which obviously did not belong there. Nor does it add-up with the way that 2018 mix has nothing to do with the original Family mix (if the goal was to be faithful to the Family mix, it's a very, very poor reconstruction, so I don't believe it was the case because obviously they work with competent engineers).

TheEnglishGent said:

Neversin said:

Don't worry, you won't hear me ever again about these releases, outtakes or whatever...
You lot are just not worth it and deserve the garbage you get and praise....
Obviously people here just don't care about his legacy, the history and accurate representation of his recordings... So be it...

Neversin.

A couple of people are being rude, but others are asking legitimate questions from a point of interest about the subject.

I think he has a full knowledge or access to the recording data (like Per Nilssen and Duane Tudahl have/had) to know when something was recorded for the original demo or for the eventual release by another artist.
So I think in the case of Nothing Compares 2 U he knows when Prince finished his demo (the bootleg version) and picked it up later again and started to work on it for The Family by recording Paul's vocals, Clare Fisher's strings etc.

JorisE73 said:

TheEnglishGent said:

To the subject of the 'real' demo versions. Are you saying that you have these, or that you know these to exist within collectors circles? Or is it assumption based on speaking to others? Or you just know for sure that they exist somewhere in the vault?

He'll probably bite my head of again but I don't care. [Snip - luv4u]

**
- Sex Shooter on Originals seems to be Prince's version of the Apollonia 6 version but Neversin's sample is Prince's vocal version of the Vanity 6 version.

- Jungle Love on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Manic Monday on Originals is a different mix as Neversin's sample but essentially the same version but I'm not sure about the backing vocals.

- Noon Rendezvous on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Make-Up on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- 100 MPH on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- You're My Love on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Holly Rock on Originals sounds like a different mix than Neversin's sample.

- Baby You're a Trip on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- The Glamorous Life on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Gigolos Get Lonely Too on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Love... Thy Will Be Done on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Dear Michaelangelo on Originals is the same as Neversin's sample.

- Wouldn't You Love To Love Me on Originals is a different version from Neversin's sample.

- Nothing Compares 2 U on Originals is a different mix from Neversin's sample.

Sound quality is slightly better on Originals (not much) and volume boosted, but I don't know if Neversin watered his samples down.
All in all only Sex Shooter, Manic Monday, Holly Rock, Wouldn't You Love to Love Me and Nothing Compares 2 U seem different from his samples.
It boggles my mind that Neversin has these tracks.
**

[Edited 6/7/19 2:41am]

Kares, Neversin, and others: do we know what happened with the new mixes? Did they take the multitracks and made stereo mixes without trying to recreate the existing mixes that Prince and the engineers made at the time? Or is it worse than that? It certainly is with "Nothing Compares 2 U", where they took a stereo cassette tape and added elements from the multitracks. What happened with Jill Jones background vocals on "Baby You're A Trip", for example? Did they just decide not to mute Jill Jones' tracks on the multitrack? Or did they use several sources?

i like it

favorites: noon rendezvous, make-up, dear michaelangelo.

it doesn't feel like an album, it feels like a compilation, which is what it is anyway.
the real excitement i think, for me, will come once we get actual albums he made
and filed away, so a completed project with unknown songs from start to end.

but for what it is, i like this release, it's nice and there's a bunch of great tracks
on this. and like always, with every prince release, i will probably come to really
enjoy even the ones i don't like now, in future.

and tho the soundquality might not be the best, i'm really enjoying "WYLTLM"

Neversin said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

Sounds lilke you already have more than enough to enjoy in your vast collection ...so...shut up already!

Don't worry, you won't hear me ever again about these releases, outtakes or whatever...
You lot are just not worth it and deserve the garbage you get and praise....
Obviously people here just don't care about his legacy, the history and accurate representation of his recordings... So be it...

Neversin.

I agree with Joris. Please don't stop posting your insight and commentary.

IstenSzek said:

i like it

favorites: noon rendezvous, make-up, dear michaelangelo.

it doesn't feel like an album, it feels like a compilation, which is what it is anyway.
the real excitement i think, for me, will come once we get actual albums he made
and filed away, so a completed project with unknown songs from start to end.

but for what it is, i like this release, it's nice and there's a bunch of great tracks
on this. and like always, with every prince release, i will probably come to really
enjoy even the ones i don't like now, in future.

I.m really not feeling Make Up. It's odd and doesn't even really do anything interesting.

controversy99 said:

This album is awesome, much better than I expected. Agree that the different vocal styles is one of the best parts. I’m shocked by how much I’m enjoying Sex Shooter because I really didn’t like this song before. The overall diversity of musical styles, range of singing, and general creativity is so cool. A couple of the songs suffer from feeling very much like demos (which some are), so he hits these points where he sounds like he’s not quite giving the vocals his full care and effort. But that’s a small complaint because even then it’s kind of amazing, like the little nuances in Jungle Love and the occasional little gaps that would be filled in later or changed slightly by the artist who received and released the song. Manic Monday is also way better than I expected, somehow the lyrics are a bit more impactful in this version. It’s still a light song but has a bit of a more melancholy feel to me.

Yeah--there's something about the ends of a few lines where it really does feel that way. A very sunny... melancholy. I don't know if it's an intentional effect and represents what he wanted the song's tone to be, or if he was just laying back vocally and just providing a guide vocal and it just accidentally provided a different emotional tone to the song, but I like it either way.

Its all about the groove

Neversin said:

One thing which slightly annoys me about Manic Monday is that Prince sings "But when she tells me in her bedroom voice" and Brenda and Jill sing "his" in the background vocals and just doesn't fit.
That seems to me that the background vocals weren't for Prince's version of teh song but maybe even were recorded when Apollonia already had recorded her vocals for the Apollonia6 version. So this could be another case of Nothing Compares 2 U.

poplife4 said:

Neversin said:

Don't worry, you won't hear me ever again about these releases, outtakes or whatever...
You lot are just not worth it and deserve the garbage you get and praise....
Obviously people here just don't care about his legacy, the history and accurate representation of his recordings... So be it...

Neversin.

You may have unique knowledge about Prince’s work and recordings but you come across as such a negative person - shitting on the product available to us and the people who are here enjoying it. You’re like a Star Wars fan who hates the last 8 Star Wars movies but still hangs out online talking about Star Wars. Chill out and let people enjoy this cool release.

To be fair it seems he only shits on the people that shit on him first.
But I get where he's coming from, he just wants untinkered with songs from the vault like any of us, the only difference is is that he knows which versions are tinkered with and we don't.
See my post above about Manic Monday, that one just sounds like they put the wrong backing vocals on his demo.

My favorites are "Sex Shooter" (I love his vocals!!) and "Makeup" (That beat is killer). For me, this album further cements just how on fire Prince was in that period. I preferred all of these original versions to the releases by other artists. His "performance" of his own material is usually unmatched.

Goddess4Real said:

So is there a version of Sex Shooter with just Prince's vocals on there?

Yes lisenting to it now! It's great...

JorisE73 said:

poplife4 said:

Neversin said: You may have unique knowledge about Prince’s work and recordings but you come across as such a negative person - shitting on the product available to us and the people who are here enjoying it. You’re like a Star Wars fan who hates the last 8 Star Wars movies but still hangs out online talking about Star Wars. Chill out and let people enjoy this cool release.

To be fair it seems he only shits on the people that shit on him first.
But I get where he's coming from, he just wants untinkered with songs from the vault like any of us, the only difference is is that he knows which versions are tinkered with and we don't.
See my post above about Manic Monday, that one just sounds like they put the wrong backing vocals on his demo.

The only problem I have is how does he know there aren't alternate takes, or what he has is the definitive version that Prince intended it to be? I respect Neversin's posts when he makes them because he is definitely knowledgable but as a wise man once said, with great knowledge comes great responsibility, or something like that. With that knowledge it would be nice if there could be more elaboration. So instead of saying X is shit, should have been Y. Say X is shit, person Z who was Prince's engineer at the time told me Y was the intended version, or whatever.

olb99 said:

Kares, Neversin, and others: do we know what happened with the new mixes? Did they take the multitracks and made stereo mixes without trying to recreate the existing mixes that Prince and the engineers made at the time? Or is it worse than that? It certainly is with "Nothing Compares 2 U", where they took a stereo cassette tape and added elements from the multitracks. What happened with Jill Jones background vocals on "Baby You're A Trip", for example? Did they just decide not to mute Jill Jones' tracks on the multitrack? Or did they use several sources?

.
I don't claim to know for sure – I can only talk about what I hear. Based on the quality and sonic characteristics of the material I am sure 14 songs came from genuine vault tapes, and this is a first since Prince passed. (NC2U is another matter but we've discussed that many times before.)
.
I'm also sure that at least some of these 14 songs (but perhaps all of them) have been newly mixed from the multitracks – this is most obvious in the case of Manic Monday, not only because of the background vocals, but because of fairly modern sound of the entire mix.

I don't think they've used different sources for these mixes, but it is likely that they've included tracks (parts) of some songs for the mix that weren't taped during the same session, simply because they are on the same tape – as it's the case with Jill Jones's vocals on BYAT, for example.
.