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Reply #120 posted 05/10/19 4:53pm

herb4

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He did have an odd tendency to bury some of his better tracks. I think he did it on purpose and, to some extent, it sometimes worked in his favor and IMO prolonged his longevity and ability to surprise a little bit because a listener can sort of keep digging and be blown away by non singles on the album.

Agree though that he often took this tendency too far.

Mountains is a fine song though I think and an OK single. Parade in general is a tricky one singles wise, at least after Kiss, but I think there was some push/pull going on with even releasing that one.

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Reply #121 posted 05/10/19 5:23pm

ChocolateBox31
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I feel Prince(r.i.p.) knew that the radio was going to play what they wanted from each album no matter what the single was. ATWIAD originally wasn't suppose to have any singles. 'Parade' the radio stations here played 'Girls&Boys' . SOTT the album cut 'Adore' is still played on the radio this day and really is the most popular urban song from that album, that gets the most regular airplay, like a single release. Most of all his albums was like that including '1999'.

So Prince, whom fought 4 his first record deal & got it, fought 4 a movie deal & got it, fought 4 freedom from his WB contract & got it, fought 4 his masters & got them.Gets a curable illness & says 2 himself ok, I'm done. "Life is a Box Of Chocolates"
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Reply #122 posted 05/10/19 7:15pm

SoulAlive

with Parade,the most obvious choice for a second single is “Girls and Boys”.It’s a fun,catchy song with a lot of mass appeal.”Mountains” is a good song but I think “Girls and Boys” would have followed “Kiss” into the Top 10 and kept the album’s momentum going.
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Reply #123 posted 05/10/19 9:19pm

itsjustaroundt
hecorner

SoulAlive said:

with Parade,the most obvious choice for a second single is “Girls and Boys”.It’s a fun,catchy song with a lot of mass appeal.”Mountains” is a good song but I think “Girls and Boys” would have followed “Kiss” into the Top 10 and kept the album’s momentum going.

absolutely.

same with SOTT... UGTL should have been single #2 .. he would have had back to back top 5 singles.... AARGH!

I love IIWYGF is one of my all time faves.. but remember a 12 year old me rolling my eyes when I learned it would be the follow up !

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Reply #124 posted 05/11/19 7:47am

stillwaiting

itsjustaroundthecorner said:

SoulAlive said:

with Parade,the most obvious choice for a second single is “Girls and Boys”.It’s a fun,catchy song with a lot of mass appeal.”Mountains” is a good song but I think “Girls and Boys” would have followed “Kiss” into the Top 10 and kept the album’s momentum going.

absolutely.

same with SOTT... UGTL should have been single #2 .. he would have had back to back top 5 singles.... AARGH!

I love IIWYGF is one of my all time faves.. but remember a 12 year old me rolling my eyes when I learned it would be the follow up !

Look at the distance between albums for Janet Jackson, U2, Michael Jackson, and most of the Mega stars. Prince was flooding the market. Had SOTT been the follow up to Purple Rain, imagine the run of Top 10 singles:

Kiss, U Got The Look, Raspberry Beret, Housequake, SOTT, I Could Never, and then perhaps even Forever In My Life, and Paisley Park as well. But oh well, it is what it is.

"If U ever lose some1 dear 2 U, Never say the words they're gone....They'll come back."
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Reply #125 posted 05/11/19 11:31am

herb4

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True.

Overall it's really hard for me to nitpick or second guess the choices he made since he accomplished so much and remained relevant for so long, even in the face of the jokes and the mis-steps. A lot of shit he pulled off didn't make sense and sometimes frustrated me but I always totally dug and admired the way he insisted on being his own person and just basically being Prince with a capital "P" at all times, preactically from the very get go. It took a ton of balls, talent, sheer determination and gruelling hard work.

I don't see a long line of cats behind him living the singular,visionary, uniquely artistic life that he did either, no matter how rich or famous they are, nor anyone stepping up to the plate to fill that tremendous void now that he's gone. I'll never live long enough to see anything quite like it again.

The music, the producing, the films, the side projects and aliases, the castle in Minnesota, the live shows (and aftershows), the stores, the clubs, the perfumes...the clothes...his proteges and his marriages. Dealing with the loss of his son. Changing his name. Who DOES all that? And leaves that indelible mark? Leaving people wanting even MORE...?

That singular symbol that stood for so much?

You do that much and you'll make some "Purple Mistakes" too. I'm sort of inclined to go easy on him and just say "thanks" for the most part.

Except for "Purple and Gold". Because that was awful

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Reply #126 posted 05/11/19 5:25pm

ChocolateBox31
21

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herb4 said:

True.

Overall it's really hard for me to nitpick or second guess the choices he made since he accomplished so much and remained relevant for so long, even in the face of the jokes and the mis-steps. A lot of shit he pulled off didn't make sense and sometimes frustrated me but I always totally dug and admired the way he insisted on being his own person and just basically being Prince with a capital "P" at all times, preactically from the very get go. It took a ton of balls, talent, sheer determination and gruelling hard work.

I don't see a long line of cats behind him living the singular,visionary, uniquely artistic life that he did either, no matter how rich or famous they are, nor anyone stepping up to the plate to fill that tremendous void now that he's gone. I'll never live long enough to see anything quite like it again.

The music, the producing, the films, the side projects and aliases, the castle in Minnesota, the live shows (and aftershows), the stores, the clubs, the perfumes...the clothes...his proteges and his marriages. Dealing with the loss of his son. Changing his name. Who DOES all that? And leaves that indelible mark? Leaving people wanting even MORE...?

That singular symbol that stood for so much?

You do that much and you'll make some "Purple Mistakes" too. I'm sort of inclined to go easy on him and just say "thanks" for the most part.


fp4apg.jpg

So Prince, whom fought 4 his first record deal & got it, fought 4 a movie deal & got it, fought 4 freedom from his WB contract & got it, fought 4 his masters & got them.Gets a curable illness & says 2 himself ok, I'm done. "Life is a Box Of Chocolates"
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Reply #127 posted 05/12/19 8:50am

barnswallow

Someone a few pages back remarked that not being willing to make mistakes is the end of creativity (or something like that). I agreed with that. I don't disagree with any of his artistic moves/experimentation.

One thing I was surprised about: the Shockadelica story and Jesse Johnson. That just struck me as mean. And, as someone else remarked above, I could write a book about all my mistakes, so I say this completely aware that most of us engage in brick regrettable meanness at times. It's just an incident where P, from his more powerful position, perhaps unwitting of the impact, used his creativity in a mean way.

But, I'm a basic newbie, so please excuse if I don't completely understand the story.

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Reply #128 posted 05/12/19 5:25pm

SoulAlive

itsjustaroundthecorner said:

SoulAlive said:

with Parade,the most obvious choice for a second single is “Girls and Boys”.It’s a fun,catchy song with a lot of mass appeal.”Mountains” is a good song but I think “Girls and Boys” would have followed “Kiss” into the Top 10 and kept the album’s momentum going.

absolutely.

same with SOTT... UGTL should have been single #2 .. he would have had back to back top 5 singles.... AARGH!

I love IIWYGF is one of my all time faves.. but remember a 12 year old me rolling my eyes when I learned it would be the follow up !

biggrin I remember being quite shocked when I learned that "IIWYG" would be the second single.I had a bad feeling that the masses wouldn't understand that song and that's exactly what happened.

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Reply #129 posted 05/13/19 9:19am

iamafan

It is hard to look at one of the most successful artists ever and find 'mistakes'. Here are things I personally wish he did differently. No idea if it would have led to commercial success or him still being here, but these are the things I would change in an alternate universe to see how things would've worked out.

1. Never met Larry Graham

2. Never became so publicly anti-drug as I think that may have stopped/delayed him from getting help.

3. Took better care of his bands (I read what people were paid in Mayte's book, and if all that is true, it is very sad how little he compensated everyone.)

4. Had a will (assuming that would lead to better distribution of vault music if someone competant was in charge).

5. Not done the whole Symbol thing.

I still feel sorrow over his suffering. He had a screwed up childhood and did an amazing job just getting out of his awful situation. Poor guy probably never had any decent/mature coping skills nor anyone he could trust.

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Reply #130 posted 05/13/19 2:07pm

herb4

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iamafan said:

2. Never became so publicly anti-drug as I think that may have stopped/delayed him from getting help.


I never thought of that.

Hm...

One of the things about "drugs" is, though, that when people procure them through a doctor or use a drug that's legal (like alcohol) it's viewed far differently and carries less stigma. Think about things like diet pills, steroids, anti anxiety meds, tobacco products and, yes, pain meds then somehow users are seen as...well...not really "users". Look at pot , for instance and how that stigma is finally starting to shift as society finally catches up to reality.

Prince would have been much better off using weed to treat his pain than Oxy's and Vicodins.

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Reply #131 posted 05/14/19 4:32am

james

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I've said it before on similar threads... But I wish he'd never done Batman.

.

Maybe Rave would have been a better, more experimental, album... maybe the following albums would have been less cheesy and commercial... maybe we'd have been spared Graffiti Bridge (Long shot!).

[Edited 5/14/19 4:33am]

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Reply #132 posted 05/14/19 2:24pm

SoulAlive

james said:

I've said it before on similar threads... But I wish he'd never done Batman.

.

Maybe Rave would have been a better, more experimental, album... maybe the following albums would have been less cheesy and commercial... maybe we'd have been spared Graffiti Bridge (Long shot!).

but after Lovesexy (a brilliant album that was ignored by the masses),Prince needed a big hit album.I think the Batman album was a wise move for him,at that point.

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Reply #133 posted 05/14/19 2:49pm

jfenster

james said:

I've said it before on similar threads... But I wish he'd never done Batman.

.

Maybe Rave would have been a better, more experimental, album... maybe the following albums would have been less cheesy and commercial... maybe we'd have been spared Graffiti Bridge (Long shot!).

[Edited 5/14/19 4:33am]

but then he wouldve had to do something else to make a ton of money...couldve been a worse situation

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Reply #134 posted 05/15/19 9:35am

stillwaiting

jfenster said:

james said:

I've said it before on similar threads... But I wish he'd never done Batman.

.

Maybe Rave would have been a better, more experimental, album... maybe the following albums would have been less cheesy and commercial... maybe we'd have been spared Graffiti Bridge (Long shot!).

[Edited 5/14/19 4:33am]

but then he wouldve had to do something else to make a ton of money...couldve been a worse situation

Worse? Oh, of course, he could have added a rapper who rapped about Manure, and other amazing topics. And even worse, he could have the rapper and a bunch of goofy dancers dress up in Star Trek The Next Generation uniforms...oh...he did do that. Sorry. Got carried away.

"If U ever lose some1 dear 2 U, Never say the words they're gone....They'll come back."
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Reply #135 posted 05/15/19 9:43am

rdhull

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LenguaDePlata said:

Firing Jam and Lewis. It was never going to work, but imagine if hey had stayed around and been out in charge of Paisley Park Records...

Oh hell no. Im glad it happened. We ended up with a plethora of great music from Flyte Tyme production. Their talents would have been wasted if they were on Paisley.

lol it aint the estates fault you all devoured bootlegs and heard everything
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Reply #136 posted 05/15/19 12:11pm

ChocolateBox31
21

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LenguaDePlata said:

Firing Jam and Lewis. It was never going to work, but imagine if hey had stayed around and been out in charge of Paisley Park Records...



Divine intervention works when it suppose to. That way it made it possible that Jimmy Jam(whom I met a few months ago)& Terry Lewis brought out Janet(whom I worked with) inner musical talent and turned her into a MEGA STAR that rivaled her brother.
So Prince, whom fought 4 his first record deal & got it, fought 4 a movie deal & got it, fought 4 freedom from his WB contract & got it, fought 4 his masters & got them.Gets a curable illness & says 2 himself ok, I'm done. "Life is a Box Of Chocolates"
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Reply #137 posted 05/15/19 12:43pm

SoulAlive

^^If Prince had formed a partnership with Jam and Lewis,Paisley Park Records could have been the Motown of the 80s.Even Jill Jones would have had some major hit singles.

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Reply #138 posted 05/15/19 12:48pm

rdhull

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SoulAlive said:

^^If Prince had formed a partnership with Jam and Lewis,Paisley Park Records could have been the Motown of the 80s.Even Jill Jones would have had some major hit singles.

i USED to think this. But the reason Jam and Lewis were so successful was they had their own sound. The Pailsey label wasnt well rounded in music output as the tastes of the public was going away fom Prince influenced music. And Prince was putting his stamp on evryone in his stead. But I see you stated "partnership" and Prince doesnt play well with others in that manner so J&L and their mini Motown of Flyte Time was right on the money.

[Edited 5/15/19 13:38pm]

lol it aint the estates fault you all devoured bootlegs and heard everything
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Reply #139 posted 05/15/19 1:29pm

stillwaiting

rdhull said:

SoulAlive said:

^^If Prince had formed a partnership with Jam and Lewis,Paisley Park Records could have been the Motown of the 80s.Even Jill Jones would have had some major hit singles.

i USED to think this. But the reason Jam and Lewis were so successful was they had their own sound. The Pailsey label wasnt well rounded in muic putput as the tastes of the publiv was going away fom Prince influences music. And Prince was putting his stamp n evryone in his stead. But I see you stated "partnership" and Prince doesnt play well with others in that manner so J&L and their mini Motown of Flyte Time was right on the money.

Well, they had their own sound, but they also had tons of Prince influences in their sound. And if Prince was not such a control freak, it would have been a Dynasty. Prince could have been a billionaire, but it is what it is.

"If U ever lose some1 dear 2 U, Never say the words they're gone....They'll come back."
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Reply #140 posted 05/15/19 1:41pm

rdhull

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stillwaiting said:

rdhull said:

i USED to think this. But the reason Jam and Lewis were so successful was they had their own sound. The Pailsey label wasnt well rounded in muic putput as the tastes of the publiv was going away fom Prince influences music. And Prince was putting his stamp n evryone in his stead. But I see you stated "partnership" and Prince doesnt play well with others in that manner so J&L and their mini Motown of Flyte Time was right on the money.

Well, they had their own sound, but they also had tons of Prince influences in their sound. And if Prince was not such a control freak, it would have been a Dynasty. Prince could have been a billionaire, but it is what it is.

Not enough that it detractd other to think they were Price imitators etc. AKA, they had their own sound (the 808 etc).

lol it aint the estates fault you all devoured bootlegs and heard everything
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Reply #141 posted 05/19/19 10:49am

SoulAlive

rdhull said:

SoulAlive said:

^^If Prince had formed a partnership with Jam and Lewis,Paisley Park Records could have been the Motown of the 80s.Even Jill Jones would have had some major hit singles.

i USED to think this. But the reason Jam and Lewis were so successful was they had their own sound. The Pailsey label wasnt well rounded in music output as the tastes of the public was going away fom Prince influenced music. And Prince was putting his stamp on evryone in his stead. But I see you stated "partnership" and Prince doesnt play well with others in that manner so J&L and their mini Motown of Flyte Time was right on the money.

Very good point.It would have never worked out.

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Reply #142 posted 05/21/19 10:15am

RJOrion

1. firing Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis
2. deciding "Under The Cherry Moon" should be a black & white film
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Reply #143 posted 05/21/19 10:46am

stillwaiting

ChocolateBox3121 said:

I feel Prince(r.i.p.) knew that the radio was going to play what they wanted from each album no matter what the single was. ATWIAD originally wasn't suppose to have any singles. 'Parade' the radio stations here played 'Girls&Boys' . SOTT the album cut 'Adore' is still played on the radio this day and really is the most popular urban song from that album, that gets the most regular airplay, like a single release. Most of all his albums was like that including '1999'.

To an extent, radio did play album tracks, but in some cities, it is not the case. Some cities had no stations that played album tracks. In the summer of 1990, Thieves In The Temple was all over New York radio, treated like a Top Ten hit, after I went back home to Tallahassee, it was treated like a Top 30 hit, hardly ever played. Same thing with Sexy MF and Gett Off were almost 100 percent ignored on the Tallahassee FM stations. The Soul AM station played it, but it sounded so awful to listen to music on AM. From Parade to the end of his career, Batman and Diamonds And Pearls were the only albums with any true star level sales figures. SOTT was only platinum due to double albums counting as two sales. From 1987 to 2015 it still had not moved a million actual units. It possibly has now in the years since his death, but would not be shocked if it hadn't. I used to study the Billboard Airplay charts, and don't remember seeing girls&boys on ANY of them. Sure, Prince album tracks got the odd play at 2:00 AM, but the successful revenue generating stations just played the hits. Prince album sales reflect an over-saturated market, and Prince and Warners doing everything possible to sabotage his career. Just look at the sales Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, U2, and even Madonna and Bon Jovi would go at least two years without an album.

"If U ever lose some1 dear 2 U, Never say the words they're gone....They'll come back."
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Reply #144 posted 05/21/19 12:49pm

jfenster

Prince himself stated he made mistakes....was he specific??

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Reply #145 posted 05/21/19 6:05pm

ChocolateBox31
21

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stillwaiting said:

ChocolateBox3121 said:

I feel Prince(r.i.p.) knew that the radio was going to play what they wanted from each album no matter what the single was. ATWIAD originally wasn't suppose to have any singles. 'Parade' the radio stations here played 'Girls&Boys' . SOTT the album cut 'Adore' is still played on the radio this day and really is the most popular urban song from that album, that gets the most regular airplay, like a single release. Most of all his albums was like that including '1999'.

To an extent, radio did play album tracks, but in some cities, it is not the case. Some cities had no stations that played album tracks. In the summer of 1990, Thieves In The Temple was all over New York radio, treated like a Top Ten hit, after I went back home to Tallahassee, it was treated like a Top 30 hit, hardly ever played. Same thing with Sexy MF and Gett Off were almost 100 percent ignored on the Tallahassee FM stations. The Soul AM station played it, but it sounded so awful to listen to music on AM. From Parade to the end of his career, Batman and Diamonds And Pearls were the only albums with any true star level sales figures. SOTT was only platinum due to double albums counting as two sales. From 1987 to 2015 it still had not moved a million actual units. It possibly has now in the years since his death, but would not be shocked if it hadn't. I used to study the Billboard Airplay charts, and don't remember seeing girls&boys on ANY of them. Sure, Prince album tracks got the odd play at 2:00 AM, but the successful revenue generating stations just played the hits. Prince album sales reflect an over-saturated market, and Prince and Warners doing everything possible to sabotage his career. Just look at the sales Michael Jackson, Janet Jackson, U2, and even Madonna and Bon Jovi would go at least two years without an album.

It was a Billboard 100 top 10 hit. Whether Tallahassee chose to play it as much or not.

So Prince, whom fought 4 his first record deal & got it, fought 4 a movie deal & got it, fought 4 freedom from his WB contract & got it, fought 4 his masters & got them.Gets a curable illness & says 2 himself ok, I'm done. "Life is a Box Of Chocolates"
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Reply #146 posted 05/22/19 1:10am

batman89

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I think his biggest mistake was not explaing the truth of the name change. The circus that followed from the symbol change under the guise of it a spiritual choice detracted too much from the very message Prince was pushing the most...his music. I feel that had he explained that WB decided to control the work of the artist under the Prince moniker, so he was simply changing the rules in the favour of the fans by removing that title from his persona. It would have been seen as a brave yet clever business move rather than how he was portrayed dropping the name Prince. Had he allowed the music (which was of high quality during the symbol era) to be the primary focus, in place of the character...I feel his reputation by the general public would have been significantly more positive during the 90's.

[Edited 5/22/19 1:12am]

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Reply #147 posted 05/22/19 1:43am

ChocolateBox31
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batman89 said:

I think his biggest mistake was not explaing the truth of the name change. The circus that followed from the symbol change under the guise of it a spiritual choice detracted too much from the very message Prince was pushing the most...his music. I feel that had he explained that WB decided to control the work of the artist under the Prince moniker, so he was simply changing the rules in the favour of the fans by removing that title from his persona. It would have been seen as a brave yet clever business move rather than how he was portrayed dropping the name Prince. Had he allowed the music (which was of high quality during the symbol era) to be the primary focus, in place of the character...I feel his reputation by the general public would have been significantly more positive during the 90's.

[Edited 5/22/19 1:12am]

Prince(r.i.p.) did explain what he was doing in print interviews and award shows speeches. It's just that NO other artist was doing what he was doing at that time. So it confused the general public. But years later it became more clear. He stood as a innovative leader.

So Prince, whom fought 4 his first record deal & got it, fought 4 a movie deal & got it, fought 4 freedom from his WB contract & got it, fought 4 his masters & got them.Gets a curable illness & says 2 himself ok, I'm done. "Life is a Box Of Chocolates"
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Reply #148 posted 05/22/19 4:11am

BartVanHemelen

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herb4 said:

iamafan said:

2. Never became so publicly anti-drug as I think that may have stopped/delayed him from getting help.


I never thought of that.

Hm...

One of the things about "drugs" is, though, that when people procure them through a doctor or use a drug that's legal (like alcohol) it's viewed far differently and carries less stigma. Think about things like diet pills, steroids, anti anxiety meds, tobacco products and, yes, pain meds then somehow users are seen as...well...not really "users". Look at pot , for instance and how that stigma is finally starting to shift as society finally catches up to reality.

Prince would have been much better off using weed to treat his pain than Oxy's and Vicodins.

.

It's not so much about him being anti-drugs, it's about him being in denial about flaws etc. Hence him barely acknowledging life-changing events like the death of his son or the death of his parents or his failed marriages. (Whereas his 1980s music was more personal in that way.)

.

Look at Arcade Fire's Funeral, or Eels' Electro-Shock Blues, Neil Young's Tonight's The Night, or Sufjan Stevens' Carrie & Lowell, or Wendy & Lisa's Girl Bros.: where's Prince's equivalent album?

.

I mean, did you watch that clip Mick Jagger posted on Twitter a month after having heart chirurgy that delayed his tour? That's the kind of thing a rich celeb can do: have access to the best medical care. Yet Prince was buying black market drugs because he couldn't publicly admit to having a physical defect and thus hid all that, including the resulting drug addiction.

.

I really don't get why he was so secretive about this. Keith Richards fell out of a tree and got a concussion and he still is the coolest fucker that walks the earth.

© Bart Van Hemelen
This posting is provided AS IS with no warranties, and confers no rights.
It is not authorized by Prince or the NPG Music Club. You assume all risk for
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Reply #149 posted 05/22/19 9:28am

Germanegro

Prince was just a certain kind of entertainer who seems not to have veered far into personal emotional exploration through his works--maybe one song or another--I'll see "Comeback" as one such. He just might have been communicatively stunted in personal life to a degree. I fear that that kind of issue may have ultimately complicated his first marriage to lead to that divorce, IMO. So I guess this could be seen as a flaw that led to mistakes.

>

He had his quirky beliefs about health too, maybe driven by his faith--who knows--and again, trust issues that blocked his ability to let go to treatments by medical professionals. Perhaps another flaw that led to mistakes.

>

I do hate to say "poor Prince" because there were some very charming parts of his life, but he had his hard times too, like a lot of us do, R.I.P.

>

BartVanHemelen said:

herb4 said:


I never thought of that.

Hm...

One of the things about "drugs" is, though, that when people procure them through a doctor or use a drug that's legal (like alcohol) it's viewed far differently and carries less stigma. Think about things like diet pills, steroids, anti anxiety meds, tobacco products and, yes, pain meds then somehow users are seen as...well...not really "users". Look at pot , for instance and how that stigma is finally starting to shift as society finally catches up to reality.

Prince would have been much better off using weed to treat his pain than Oxy's and Vicodins.

.

It's not so much about him being anti-drugs, it's about him being in denial about flaws etc. Hence him barely acknowledging life-changing events like the death of his son or the death of his parents or his failed marriages. (Whereas his 1980s music was more personal in that way.)

.

Look at Arcade Fire's Funeral, or Eels' Electro-Shock Blues, Neil Young's Tonight's The Night, or Sufjan Stevens' Carrie & Lowell, or Wendy & Lisa's Girl Bros.: where's Prince's equivalent album?

.

I mean, did you watch that clip Mick Jagger posted on Twitter a month after having heart chirurgy that delayed his tour? That's the kind of thing a rich celeb can do: have access to the best medical care. Yet Prince was buying black market drugs because he couldn't publicly admit to having a physical defect and thus hid all that, including the resulting drug addiction.

.

I really don't get why he was so secretive about this. Keith Richards fell out of a tree and got a concussion and he still is the coolest fucker that walks the earth.

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