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Thread started 03/17/19 2:07pm

thebanishedone

Vocal lessons between Controversy and 1999 album?

Was Prince having vocal lessons after 1981 album Controversy?

His vocals improved very much.if you listen to how he sings Do Me Baby studio version

and Do Me Baby on 1999 tour there is a big difference.

We know he had lessons from Seth Riggs but was it during this period.

to me Prince vocals were the best on 1999 tour and album.

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Reply #1 posted 03/18/19 2:04am

PeteSilas

thebanishedone said:

Was Prince having vocal lessons after 1981 album Controversy?

His vocals improved very much.if you listen to how he sings Do Me Baby studio version

and Do Me Baby on 1999 tour there is a big difference.

We know he had lessons from Seth Riggs but was it during this period.

to me Prince vocals were the best on 1999 tour and album.

he may have but I doubt if they made that much of a difference. The biggest factor was the same for every other facet of his art, his unrelenting work ethic. His falsetto was ok, so i never thought that really changed that much over the years although he put on his greatest performances/falsetto later on, it was how quickly he developed and sang in his lower register. He really couldn't sing in that register for the first few albums and for him to do most of his albums in that register by 1999-purple rain, is as impressive as how quickly he became a good dancer.

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Reply #2 posted 03/18/19 2:26am

thebanishedone

PeteSilas said:

thebanishedone said:

Was Prince having vocal lessons after 1981 album Controversy?

His vocals improved very much.if you listen to how he sings Do Me Baby studio version

and Do Me Baby on 1999 tour there is a big difference.

We know he had lessons from Seth Riggs but was it during this period.

to me Prince vocals were the best on 1999 tour and album.

he may have but I doubt if they made that much of a difference. The biggest factor was the same for every other facet of his art, his unrelenting work ethic. His falsetto was ok, so i never thought that really changed that much over the years although he put on his greatest performances/falsetto later on, it was how quickly he developed and sang in his lower register. He really couldn't sing in that register for the first few albums and for him to do most of his albums in that register by 1999-purple rain, is as impressive as how quickly he became a good dancer.

His falsetto did change in matter of year.check Controversy album version of Do Me Baby and check any live 1999 era version.

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Reply #3 posted 03/18/19 1:08pm

PeteSilas

thebanishedone said:

PeteSilas said:

he may have but I doubt if they made that much of a difference. The biggest factor was the same for every other facet of his art, his unrelenting work ethic. His falsetto was ok, so i never thought that really changed that much over the years although he put on his greatest performances/falsetto later on, it was how quickly he developed and sang in his lower register. He really couldn't sing in that register for the first few albums and for him to do most of his albums in that register by 1999-purple rain, is as impressive as how quickly he became a good dancer.

His falsetto did change in matter of year.check Controversy album version of Do Me Baby and check any live 1999 era version.

his falsetto, like many guys falsettos, just depended on the side of the bed he woke up on. Sometimes it was in great form, sometimes not, he would keep performing whatever the condition. And.., let's not forget that not everyone liked his falsetto, it was one that you either loved or hated. For my money, the best performance, falsetto or otherwise was the ONA Gotta Broken Heart Again, that put him up there with the greats in my mind. I never thought of him as a great singer before that.

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Reply #4 posted 03/18/19 4:00pm

thebanishedone

PeteSilas said:

thebanishedone said:

His falsetto did change in matter of year.check Controversy album version of Do Me Baby and check any live 1999 era version.

his falsetto, like many guys falsettos, just depended on the side of the bed he woke up on. Sometimes it was in great form, sometimes not, he would keep performing whatever the condition. And.., let's not forget that not everyone liked his falsetto, it was one that you either loved or hated. For my money, the best performance, falsetto or otherwise was the ONA Gotta Broken Heart Again, that put him up there with the greats in my mind. I never thought of him as a great singer before that.

really?

so falsetto on The Most Beautiful Girl didnt work for you? or the 1 on The Beautiful Ones?

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Reply #5 posted 03/18/19 5:21pm

PeteSilas

thebanishedone said:

PeteSilas said:

his falsetto, like many guys falsettos, just depended on the side of the bed he woke up on. Sometimes it was in great form, sometimes not, he would keep performing whatever the condition. And.., let's not forget that not everyone liked his falsetto, it was one that you either loved or hated. For my money, the best performance, falsetto or otherwise was the ONA Gotta Broken Heart Again, that put him up there with the greats in my mind. I never thought of him as a great singer before that.

really?

so falsetto on The Most Beautiful Girl didnt work for you? or the 1 on The Beautiful Ones?

I'm talking great, when i say great, I'm thinking not just for a pop singer, I'm thinking of the immortals like Marvin or Sam or Jackie, I would have never quite put Prince in that category as a singer, I think he made the cut with that performance. I tend not to rate studio performances too highly either, anyone can sound good in the studio, even with the technology that was around in that era. Live, I thought the PR syracuse performance was far from a great vocal performance. Live/studio are two different things and as good as his falsetto was, like i said, not everyone likes that register, i do, but not everyone does, it grates some people. and as far as the rest of his vocal range it was a passable baritone with his fantastic screams in his higher range where he couldn't really sing, he was one of the great screamers too. Just my opinion, and doesn't take away from the whole package of artistry.

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Reply #6 posted 03/19/19 4:17am

databank

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PeteSilas said:

thebanishedone said:

really?

so falsetto on The Most Beautiful Girl didnt work for you? or the 1 on The Beautiful Ones?

I'm talking great, when i say great, I'm thinking not just for a pop singer, I'm thinking of the immortals like Marvin or Sam or Jackie, I would have never quite put Prince in that category as a singer, I think he made the cut with that performance. I tend not to rate studio performances too highly either, anyone can sound good in the studio, even with the technology that was around in that era. Live, I thought the PR syracuse performance was far from a great vocal performance. Live/studio are two different things and as good as his falsetto was, like i said, not everyone likes that register, i do, but not everyone does, it grates some people. and as far as the rest of his vocal range it was a passable baritone with his fantastic screams in his higher range where he couldn't really sing, he was one of the great screamers too. Just my opinion, and doesn't take away from the whole package of artistry.

Yeah but apparently most vocals were first take and not much tinkered with, it's not like Jam & Lewis spending a week recording dozens of takes of a singer and building a song out of it.

There's version of TMBGITW, eitehr Mustang or staxowax, the one with the crazy background vox, my singing teacherr who was a jazz killer wouldn't believe it was Prince alone, she could swear she heard a woman.

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Reply #7 posted 03/19/19 7:35am

RodeoSchro

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I'm not sure if it was in the timeframe you'r referring, but I do remember a story about Prince and a vocal coach he'd been working with. I think it was mid-to-late 80's, though?

At any rate, my belief is that he had a vocal coach or coaches most of his career. He was just way too great of a singer to have gotten there by himself, IMHO.

.

[Edited 3/19/19 7:35am]

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Reply #8 posted 03/19/19 1:17pm

PeteSilas

databank said:

PeteSilas said:

I'm talking great, when i say great, I'm thinking not just for a pop singer, I'm thinking of the immortals like Marvin or Sam or Jackie, I would have never quite put Prince in that category as a singer, I think he made the cut with that performance. I tend not to rate studio performances too highly either, anyone can sound good in the studio, even with the technology that was around in that era. Live, I thought the PR syracuse performance was far from a great vocal performance. Live/studio are two different things and as good as his falsetto was, like i said, not everyone likes that register, i do, but not everyone does, it grates some people. and as far as the rest of his vocal range it was a passable baritone with his fantastic screams in his higher range where he couldn't really sing, he was one of the great screamers too. Just my opinion, and doesn't take away from the whole package of artistry.

Yeah but apparently most vocals were first take and not much tinkered with, it's not like Jam & Lewis spending a week recording dozens of takes of a singer and building a song out of it.

There's version of TMBGITW, eitehr Mustang or staxowax, the one with the crazy background vox, my singing teacherr who was a jazz killer wouldn't believe it was Prince alone, she could swear she heard a woman.

so you think a performance like tmbgitw was done in one take? how about purple rain?

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Reply #9 posted 03/19/19 1:21pm

Genesia

avatar

PeteSilas said:

databank said:

Yeah but apparently most vocals were first take and not much tinkered with, it's not like Jam & Lewis spending a week recording dozens of takes of a singer and building a song out of it.

There's version of TMBGITW, eitehr Mustang or staxowax, the one with the crazy background vox, my singing teacherr who was a jazz killer wouldn't believe it was Prince alone, she could swear she heard a woman.

so you think a performance like tmbgitw was done in one take? how about purple rain?


We know Purple Rain was done in one take - it's the live 8/3/83 performance from First Avenue.

I do not consider edits and overdubs to be "takes."

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Reply #10 posted 03/19/19 1:43pm

PeteSilas

Genesia said:

PeteSilas said:

so you think a performance like tmbgitw was done in one take? how about purple rain?


We know Purple Rain was done in one take - it's the live 8/3/83 performance from First Avenue.

I do not consider edits and overdubs to be "takes."

well, it's not like it's made in one take and released. the proof for me is that he never sang like that live, in fact, it's hard to find tmbgitw live period.

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Reply #11 posted 03/19/19 1:54pm

Genesia

avatar

PeteSilas said:

Genesia said:


We know Purple Rain was done in one take - it's the live 8/3/83 performance from First Avenue.

I do not consider edits and overdubs to be "takes."

well, it's not like it's made in one take and released. the proof for me is that he never sang like that live, in fact, it's hard to find tmbgitw live period.


Uhhhh...Purple Rain was recorded live.

You've never worked in radio or any other sort of broadcasting, have you? Because you clearly do not know what "one take" means. (I do. When I was working in TV, my actual nickname was "One Take.")

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #12 posted 03/19/19 2:00pm

PeteSilas

Genesia said:

PeteSilas said:

well, it's not like it's made in one take and released. the proof for me is that he never sang like that live, in fact, it's hard to find tmbgitw live period.


Uhhhh...Purple Rain was recorded live.

You've never worked in radio or any other sort of broadcasting, have you? Because you clearly do not know what "one take" means. (I do. When I was working in TV, my actual nickname was "One Take.")

well miss know it all, you've never sang or played an instrument have you? I play both of these songs and I know just how difficult they are to play/sing, they are a tall order, both vocally, both, and purple rain is a monster musically, there have been many purple rain tributes and no one does it like it was recorded, from the intro to the outro with all the strings, that's damn near ten minutes of complexity in several areas, so you call it what you will, i call it what I will, the point was "live" meaning, could he do either one like he did on record? vocally? no, he never did, those are insanely hard performances to duplicate. So, i don't beat myself up too much when I can't hit every note because he couldn't either. that's almost like expecting led zeppelin to play their epics perfectly in concert, not gonna happen.

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Reply #13 posted 03/19/19 2:10pm

Genesia

avatar

PeteSilas said:

Genesia said:


Uhhhh...Purple Rain was recorded live.

You've never worked in radio or any other sort of broadcasting, have you? Because you clearly do not know what "one take" means. (I do. When I was working in TV, my actual nickname was "One Take.")

well miss know it all, you've never sang or played an instrument have you? I play both of these songs and I know just how difficult they are to play/sing, they are a tall order, both vocally, both, and purple rain is a monster musically, there have been many purple rain tributes and no one does it like it was recorded, from the intro to the outro with all the strings, that's damn near ten minutes of complexity in several areas, so you call it what you will, i call it what I will, the point was "live" meaning, could he do either one like he did on record? vocally? no, he never did, those are insanely hard performances to duplicate. So, i don't beat myself up too much when I can't hit every note because he couldn't either. that's almost like expecting led zeppelin to play their epics perfectly in concert, not gonna happen.


Yes, I have played an instrument. In fact, I played FOUR instruments, starting when I was 7, including 8 years of classical piano training. And I sang several years in school - and have done musical theatre as an adult. So there.

Are you suggesting that because YOU can't do it in one take, Prince can't do it in one take? lol lol lol lol You don't think much of yourself, do you? (That's sarcasm, BTW.)

As I said in my original post (which it's clear you didn't read), overdubs are not considered extra takes. In the case of Purple Rain, he did the original song live, in one take, at First Avenue. That is a FACT. And no amount of bending words that have a set meaning to suit your own purposes is going to change that.



[Edited 3/19/19 14:11pm]

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Reply #14 posted 03/19/19 2:28pm

PeteSilas

no, i'm just saying it's a tall order, even marvin gaye couldn't do his performances live as well as he did on tape. so, if you sang/played that much you should know and not be arguing just for arguements sake what i'm saying. as great as jackie wilson was, damn near peerless, as great as he was, his live performances weren't as perfect as his studio performances. we could play this all day but i got other things to do

Genesia said:

PeteSilas said:

well miss know it all, you've never sang or played an instrument have you? I play both of these songs and I know just how difficult they are to play/sing, they are a tall order, both vocally, both, and purple rain is a monster musically, there have been many purple rain tributes and no one does it like it was recorded, from the intro to the outro with all the strings, that's damn near ten minutes of complexity in several areas, so you call it what you will, i call it what I will, the point was "live" meaning, could he do either one like he did on record? vocally? no, he never did, those are insanely hard performances to duplicate. So, i don't beat myself up too much when I can't hit every note because he couldn't either. that's almost like expecting led zeppelin to play their epics perfectly in concert, not gonna happen.


Yes, I have played an instrument. In fact, I played FOUR instruments, starting when I was 7, including 8 years of classical piano training. And I sang several years in school - and have done musical theatre as an adult. So there.

Are you suggesting that because YOU can't do it in one take, Prince can't do it in one take? lol lol lol lol You don't think much of yourself, do you? (That's sarcasm, BTW.)

As I said in my original post (which it's clear you didn't read), overdubs are not considered extra takes. In the case of Purple Rain, he did the original song live, in one take, at First Avenue. That is a FACT. And no amount of bending words that have a set meaning to suit your own purposes is going to change that.



[Edited 3/19/19 14:11pm]

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Reply #15 posted 03/19/19 2:46pm

Genesia

avatar

PeteSilas said:

no, i'm just saying it's a tall order, even marvin gaye couldn't do his performances live as well as he did on tape. so, if you sang/played that much you should know and not be arguing just for arguements sake what i'm saying. as great as jackie wilson was, damn near peerless, as great as he was, his live performances weren't as perfect as his studio performances. we could play this all day but i got other things to do

Genesia said:


Yes, I have played an instrument. In fact, I played FOUR instruments, starting when I was 7, including 8 years of classical piano training. And I sang several years in school - and have done musical theatre as an adult. So there.

Are you suggesting that because YOU can't do it in one take, Prince can't do it in one take? lol lol lol lol You don't think much of yourself, do you? (That's sarcasm, BTW.)

As I said in my original post (which it's clear you didn't read), overdubs are not considered extra takes. In the case of Purple Rain, he did the original song live, in one take, at First Avenue. That is a FACT. And no amount of bending words that have a set meaning to suit your own purposes is going to change that.




I am not just arguing for the sake of it. YOU SAID of Purple Rain, "it's not like it's made in one take and released." I am telling you the original track that the album version was based on (the 8/3/83 concert at First Avenue) WAS recorded in one take. I have explained that overdubs are not considered takes. (You can have multiple takes of an overdub track, but overdub tracks are not considered additional "takes" on the original recording.)

Now, you have completely tacked away from that (because you know you're wrong) to say that recorded tracks are perfect and no one can recreate them - which has nothing to do with anything that has been discussed thus far.

And what Jackie Wilson has to do with the price of pork I will never know.

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #16 posted 03/19/19 5:56pm

laytonian

Genesia said:



PeteSilas said:


no, i'm just saying it's a tall order, even marvin gaye couldn't do his performances live as well as he did on tape. so, if you sang/played that much you should know and not be arguing just for arguements sake what i'm saying. as great as jackie wilson was, damn near peerless, as great as he was, his live performances weren't as perfect as his studio performances. we could play this all day but i got other things to do



Genesia said:




Yes, I have played an instrument. In fact, I played FOUR instruments, starting when I was 7, including 8 years of classical piano training. And I sang several years in school - and have done musical theatre as an adult. So there.

Are you suggesting that because YOU can't do it in one take, Prince can't do it in one take? lol lol lol lol You don't think much of yourself, do you? (That's sarcasm, BTW.)

As I said in my original post (which it's clear you didn't read), overdubs are not considered extra takes. In the case of Purple Rain, he did the original song live, in one take, at First Avenue. That is a FACT. And no amount of bending words that have a set meaning to suit your own purposes is going to change that.









I am not just arguing for the sake of it. YOU SAID of Purple Rain, "it's not like it's made in one take and released." I am telling you the original track that the album version was based on (the 8/3/83 concert at First Avenue) WAS recorded in one take. I have explained that overdubs are not considered takes. (You can have multiple takes of an overdub track, but overdub tracks are not considered additional "takes" on the original recording.)

Now, you have completely tacked away from that (because you know you're wrong) to say that recorded tracks are perfect and no one can recreate them - which has nothing to do with anything that has been discussed thus far.

And what Jackie Wilson has to do with the price of pork I will never know.



I think I met that guy on Twitter two days ago.
So busy trying to prove he was right when he was wrong that he just started yelling at me
Too bad we can't block folks here.
Welcome to "the org", laytonian… come bathe with me.
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Reply #17 posted 03/19/19 7:21pm

PeteSilas

laytonian said:

Genesia said:


I am not just arguing for the sake of it. YOU SAID of Purple Rain, "it's not like it's made in one take and released." I am telling you the original track that the album version was based on (the 8/3/83 concert at First Avenue) WAS recorded in one take. I have explained that overdubs are not considered takes. (You can have multiple takes of an overdub track, but overdub tracks are not considered additional "takes" on the original recording.)

Now, you have completely tacked away from that (because you know you're wrong) to say that recorded tracks are perfect and no one can recreate them - which has nothing to do with anything that has been discussed thus far.

And what Jackie Wilson has to do with the price of pork I will never know.

I think I met that guy on Twitter two days ago. So busy trying to prove he was right when he was wrong that he just started yelling at me Too bad we can't block folks here.

no you didn't i don't post on twitter much, and gene has a history of splitting hairs, she can go do that with someone else, as a matter of fact, i'm practicing purple rain right now, just taking a break. it is a lot of work, i want to see anyone do the full version, yes, i know there are much better musicians than myself but even the ones i see cut out large portions because it's a lot of work. later.

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Reply #18 posted 03/19/19 9:55pm

masaba

Some of Prince's best vocal performances are live...
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Reply #19 posted 03/20/19 7:36am

Genesia

avatar

laytonian said:

Genesia said:


I am not just arguing for the sake of it. YOU SAID of Purple Rain, "it's not like it's made in one take and released." I am telling you the original track that the album version was based on (the 8/3/83 concert at First Avenue) WAS recorded in one take. I have explained that overdubs are not considered takes. (You can have multiple takes of an overdub track, but overdub tracks are not considered additional "takes" on the original recording.)

Now, you have completely tacked away from that (because you know you're wrong) to say that recorded tracks are perfect and no one can recreate them - which has nothing to do with anything that has been discussed thus far.

And what Jackie Wilson has to do with the price of pork I will never know.

I think I met that guy on Twitter two days ago. So busy trying to prove he was right when he was wrong that he just started yelling at me Too bad we can't block folks here.


SOP for that dude. And you're right about the blocking. I wish.

We don’t mourn artists because we knew them. We mourn them because they helped us know ourselves.
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Reply #20 posted 03/20/19 7:37am

Genesia

avatar

PeteSilas said:

laytonian said:

Genesia said: I think I met that guy on Twitter two days ago. So busy trying to prove he was right when he was wrong that he just started yelling at me Too bad we can't block folks here.

no you didn't i don't post on twitter much, and gene has a history of splitting hairs, she can go do that with someone else, as a matter of fact, i'm practicing purple rain right now, just taking a break. it is a lot of work, i want to see anyone do the full version, yes, i know there are much better musicians than myself but even the ones i see cut out large portions because it's a lot of work. later.


By "practicing Purple Rain," you mean defending Michael Jackson, right?

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Reply #21 posted 03/20/19 8:19am

RodeoSchro

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Hardest song for me to sing off the PR album is "Baby, I'm a Star". And I can tell you for an absolute fact that the vocals you hear on the album aren't the vocals you hear on the original First Avenue performance.

Second Funkiest White Man in America

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Reply #22 posted 03/20/19 8:20am

PeteSilas

Genesia said:



PeteSilas said:




laytonian said:


Genesia said: I think I met that guy on Twitter two days ago. So busy trying to prove he was right when he was wrong that he just started yelling at me Too bad we can't block folks here.

no you didn't i don't post on twitter much, and gene has a history of splitting hairs, she can go do that with someone else, as a matter of fact, i'm practicing purple rain right now, just taking a break. it is a lot of work, i want to see anyone do the full version, yes, i know there are much better musicians than myself but even the ones i see cut out large portions because it's a lot of work. later.




By "practicing Purple Rain," you mean defending Michael Jackson, right?


You are ridiculous but yea if you want to be pretty I posted over there right now I can't sleep that doesn't mean I won't be out in few minutes. I could say other things to you but I won't. Hope you're happy with your life. Oh I might post somewhere else after I write this too if that's ok.
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Reply #23 posted 03/20/19 9:03am

peggyon

RodeoSchro said:

Hardest song for me to sing off the PR album is "Baby, I'm a Star". And I can tell you for an absolute fact that the vocals you hear on the album aren't the vocals you hear on the original First Avenue performance.

Were the vocals from First Avenue heard in the PR movie?

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Reply #24 posted 03/20/19 9:44am

RodeoSchro

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peggyon said:

RodeoSchro said:

Hardest song for me to sing off the PR album is "Baby, I'm a Star". And I can tell you for an absolute fact that the vocals you hear on the album aren't the vocals you hear on the original First Avenue performance.

Were the vocals from First Avenue heard in the PR movie?



No; at least, if they were then they were buried way, way, way in the mix. The First Avenue vocals are really weak. Talking about "Baby, I'm a Star". IIRC, the First Avenue vocals for "I Would Die 4 U" were also pretty weak and were completely re-done on the album.

TBH, the crowd noise is probably the most First-Avenue-original stuff left on the "Purple Rain" album. That doesn't diminsh the First Avenue performance at all. It's historic. But that's the nature of recording, and the nature of Prince.

Heck, there isn't much original live stuff heard on the "Sign O' the Times" movie, either.

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Reply #25 posted 03/20/19 2:23pm

PeteSilas

RodeoSchro said:

peggyon said:

Were the vocals from First Avenue heard in the PR movie?



No; at least, if they were then they were buried way, way, way in the mix. The First Avenue vocals are really weak. Talking about "Baby, I'm a Star". IIRC, the First Avenue vocals for "I Would Die 4 U" were also pretty weak and were completely re-done on the album.

TBH, the crowd noise is probably the most First-Avenue-original stuff left on the "Purple Rain" album. That doesn't diminsh the First Avenue performance at all. It's historic. But that's the nature of recording, and the nature of Prince.

Heck, there isn't much original live stuff heard on the "Sign O' the Times" movie, either.

it was all first take you know.

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Reply #26 posted 03/21/19 6:08am

RodeoSchro

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PeteSilas said:

RodeoSchro said:



No; at least, if they were then they were buried way, way, way in the mix. The First Avenue vocals are really weak. Talking about "Baby, I'm a Star". IIRC, the First Avenue vocals for "I Would Die 4 U" were also pretty weak and were completely re-done on the album.

TBH, the crowd noise is probably the most First-Avenue-original stuff left on the "Purple Rain" album. That doesn't diminsh the First Avenue performance at all. It's historic. But that's the nature of recording, and the nature of Prince.

Heck, there isn't much original live stuff heard on the "Sign O' the Times" movie, either.

it was all first take you know.



falloff

Second Funkiest White Man in America

P&R's Palladin
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Forums > Prince: Music and More > Vocal lessons between Controversy and 1999 album?