PennyPurple said:

The Dr was going to fax the reports to PP but Kirk told him they had no fax, the Dr. just said he would run them by then. The tests showed that P had mild anemia. The urine showed P had Hydrocodone and Hydromorphone in his urine. The tox screen was not back yet, turns out the coroners office took the blood and ran tests on them. No fentanyl was found in his blood from 4/20.

I thought it was odd the Doc didnt want to email the results due to privacy issues but thought it was ok to fax.

dupe

[Edited 12/27/18 10:05am]

rednblue said:

Doctors, medical researchers, those who suffer from a particular condition, etc...to state the obvious, these groups are not monoliths. Whether it's the group of people who work in a particular area of medicine, or the group of people who suffer from a particular condition, the group is not one that simply consists of perfect people and/or evil people. The group is made up of human beings. Hence, the value of hearing the reality: the varied, individual stories. It's important that people understand realities. The fact that some people who suffer from addiction are people who work extremely hard, and may function at a very high level, is just one example, and a contrary stereotype may have greatly harmed P. Every understanding that is clouded out by stereotype presents risk.

Of course, the above is simple and obvious, but as folks who are kind enough to read my rantings know, I think the real villains are likely to be found in things like large profit motive in medicine, attempts to shoehorn medical conditions into war/criminal paradigms, and stigma. Many medical conditions, including some that challenge the U.S. most (e.g. increased heart disease concerns as we age, type II diabetes), don't offer the least bit of an even playing field, as risk varies greatly with genetics and environment. Yet reactions to highly stigmatized conditions stand out like a sore thumb, as people claim they would never go down the path of the sufferer. As if. As if they could know what they'd be capable of, were they themselves dealt a different set of risk genes, and a different environment. Some of these judgmental folks have tried a cigarette or gone through a keg party phase, etc., etc. With regard to the latter, the "biggest keg partiers" or those who take other big risks, may not become addicted, while others who take fewer risks often do. This is because, again, the risk playing field is not even.

That is what those doctors/family members/friends who are of some integrity are up against. There are people who do want to get well, and sometimes getting to that point is extremely difficult. Having gotten there, these attitudes challenge this motivation by promoting shame and hiding. Extremely destructive, IMO.

I have the sense that the beginning of a more sophisticated, less stigmatized, understanding of conditions is sometimes signalled by growing appearance of things like "walks for cures," with associated web sites where individual stories are told and met with respect. In some cases, absolute "cure," in the sense of worldwide eradication of a condition, may not be realistic. But to me, the larger point is that those suffering from these conditions deserve the community's compassion and support as well as any genuinely (to the best of our knowledge) appropriate help medicine has to offer. With many conditions, there is a need for research into and/or improved access to better treatments.

Udo, I hear you about "pill culture," but IMO the truth, once again, is to be found in complexity. For one thing, there's wellness and prevention (of illness or worsening of existing illness), and at least here in the U.S., there seems to be a consensus that we don't step up enough in this area. Some things are good for almost all, e.g. appropriate exercise, and others (to include some form of pill medication among many other possibilities) depend on individual circumstance.

Also, when it comes to medicine, there are plentiful examples of overtreatment AND undertreatment. Sometimes within the same individual.

Then there's the fact that some who find themselves in a difficult place with substances are attempting to self-treat other serious medical conditions that are themselves stigmatized. It's a mess.

Often, it's primary care doctors who face initial response to addiction and other complex conditions. The system promotes these doctors spending very little time with patients. This is the opposite of what good care for complex conditions typically requires.


Edited to add: Relevant opinion article with some relevant responses in the comments to be found here: https://www.statnews.com/...treatment/

[Edited 12/27/18 10:23am]

leec1 said:

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

I thought it was odd the Doc didnt want to email the results due to privacy issues but thought it was ok to fax.

.

Internet email can be read anywhere along the route; the fax could be at his desk.

Some backgrounds about the American opioid epidemic.

sonshine said:

The doctors were duped by the drug companies. I have worked in primary and specialty care clinics for the past many years. I watched this crisis unfold. Drug companies lied and falsified records to assure doctors these meds were safe. There was a huge push to make pain the 5th vital sign. There was no reason for any patient to have to suffer or he uncomfortable with these drugs available. Before the ugly truth came out there was already a nation full of addicts. Now the doctors had to change their prescribing habits as well as begin the process of sorting out legitimate patients with true painful conditions, and lying, manipulative drug-seekers. We still manage pain medications for a large number of patients. It's a complex process. The doctors are doing the best they can. All the doctors I personally have worked with are of high integrity. It's not easy practicing medicine today in the midst of this crisis. I also do not know of any doctor who has ever received kick-backs for prescribing certain meds. That is a myth.

Yes, yes, yes. They were touted as miracle drugs....until the truth came to light.

sonshine said:

The doctors were duped by the drug companies. I have worked in primary and specialty care clinics for the past many years. I watched this crisis unfold. Drug companies lied and falsified records to assure doctors these meds were safe. There was a huge push to make pain the 5th vital sign. There was no reason for any patient to have to suffer or he uncomfortable with these drugs available. Before the ugly truth came out there was already a nation full of addicts. Now the doctors had to change their prescribing habits as well as begin the process of sorting out legitimate patients with true painful conditions, and lying, manipulative drug-seekers. We still manage pain medications for a large number of patients. It's a complex process. The doctors are doing the best they can. All the doctors I personally have worked with are of high integrity. It's not easy practicing medicine today in the midst of this crisis. I also do not know of any doctor who has ever received kick-backs for prescribing certain meds. That is a myth

I agree. The large percentage of doctors are good people. It has been difficult for them to work in busy ER's/ofc's with the drug-seeking population and it was sometimes easier to just give in to their demands for drugs to get them out of their hair.

macaylasdad said:

macaylasdad said:

When Prince went to the doctor's office on April 20th and the doctor went to PP on April 21st to give him the result from the day before, I was always curious what the results were going to say? Was there ever any word on tha

I think it has already been mentioned; Hydromorphone (Dilaudid), Hydrocodone (Vicodin), no Fentanyl.

peggyon said:

macaylasdad said:

I think it has already been mentioned; Hydromorphone (Dilaudid), Hydrocodone (Vicodin), no Fentanyl.

Fentanyl goes through the system quickly.

ISaidLifeIsJustAGame said:

peggyon said:

I think it has already been mentioned; Hydromorphone (Dilaudid), Hydrocodone (Vicodin), no Fentanyl.

Fentanyl goes through the system quickly.

He likely knew that and abstained after Moline until after lab work on 4/20. My guess is he took Dilaudid and Vicodin to 'tide him over', though it wasn't enough as he seemed 'antsy' (in withdrawal)

on 4/20. Kirk said he seemed to be in mod. withdrawal on 4/20 on way home after Dr. S.

Whatever it was, it doesn't really matter now, does it.

oceanblue said:

Whatever it was, it doesn't really matter now, does it.

It matters enough for you to read and post on the thread.

It matters because Prince was dead 12 hours later...

At the end of the day I will relay something that was said of someone close to Elvis when he was taking a lot of different pills to sleep or whatever. "He's a 42 year old man how am I going to tell him what to do". I know its very sad and all and we think "Why wasnt Prince aware of what he was doing" , no one was going to stop PRINCE, the fact that HE checked himself out of hospital himself after basically dieing on a plane hours before shows that he did not care what YOU were going to tell him. Whether intervention was coming is beyond the point, the fact is people in the camp or circle KNEW he had a problem, but like any other situation what can you do, hes 57 an adult, yes you know something bad could happen but Im sure he said to someone dont worry im alright.

Prince needed treatment

endiadj said:

macaylasdad said:

When Prince went to the doctor's office on April 20th and the doctor went to PP on April 21st to give him the result from the day before, I was always curious what the results were going to say? Was there ever any word on that?

Does it matter?

clearly not to you...

lastdecember said:

At the end of the day I will relay something that was said of someone close to Elvis when he was taking a lot of different pills to sleep or whatever. "He's a 42 year old man how am I going to tell him what to do". I know its very sad and all and we think "Why wasnt Prince aware of what he was doing" , no one was going to stop PRINCE, the fact that HE checked himself out of hospital himself after basically dieing on a plane hours before shows that he did not care what YOU were going to tell him. Whether intervention was coming is beyond the point, the fact is people in the camp or circle KNEW he had a problem, but like any other situation what can you do, hes 57 an adult, yes you know something bad could happen but Im sure he said to someone dont worry im alright.

You are sooo right.

PennyPurple said:

oceanblue said:

Whatever it was, it doesn't really matter now, does it.

It matters enough for you to read and post on the thread.

It matters because Prince was dead 12 hours later...

No it doesn't matter, I posted on the thread because I wanted to, and free to do so. No amount of speculation about what the doctor was going to tell him matters now and never will, because it will never bring him back, nor undo what happened.

[Edited 12/31/18 13:30pm]

oceanblue said:

muchtoofast said:

oceanblue said:

No it doesn't matter, I posted on the thread because I wanted to, and free to do so. No amount of speculation about what the doctor was going to tell him matters now and never will, because it will never bring him back, nor undo what happened.

[Edited 12/31/18 13:30pm]

The 5 stages of grief and loss are: 1. Denial and isolation; 2. Anger; 3. Bargaining; 4. Depression; 5. Acceptance. People who are grieving do not necessarily go through the stages in the same order or experience all of them. Maybe some people are stuck in one stage of the grieving process, like anger for instance, especially if they have anger about something else in their lives. Acceptance is hard to reach when you are still very emotional about something.

I am supplying the link below to an article from Psychology Today about the stages of grief, which aren't five as explained in this article.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/supersurvivors/201707/why-the-five-stages-grief-are-wrong

I have also copied the ending paragraph of this article because I feel it is applicable.

"Grief isn’t a race to the finish line, and it isn’t a contest to see who fits Kubler-Ross’s stages best. It’s a natural, though emotionally difficult, part of life, and one that can’t be easily explained by five simple stages."

I think that there are many members who still have trouble with acceptance of P.'s death.

Folks will probably keep coming back to the circumstances of his death as there were so many secrets that do not make sense. Closure is difficult under those circumstances.

That he bested P's high score in Donkey Kong. He had the screenshot in one of the folders he was carrying. At least, that's what my source tells me.

PliablyPurple said:

That he bested P's high score in Donkey Kong. He had the screenshot in one of the folders he was carrying. At least, that's what my source tells me.

huh?

PliablyPurple said:

That he bested P's high score in Donkey Kong. He had the screenshot in one of the folders he was carrying. At least, that's what my source tells me.

People underestimate the importance of Donkey Kong!

lastdecember said:

At the end of the day I will relay something that was said of someone close to Elvis when he was taking a lot of different pills to sleep or whatever. "He's a 42 year old man how am I going to tell him what to do". I know its very sad and all and we think "Why wasnt Prince aware of what he was doing" , no one was going to stop PRINCE, the fact that HE checked himself out of hospital himself after basically dieing on a plane hours before shows that he did not care what YOU were going to tell him. Whether intervention was coming is beyond the point, the fact is people in the camp or circle KNEW he had a problem, but like any other situation what can you do, hes 57 an adult, yes you know something bad could happen but Im sure he said to someone dont worry im alright.

Prince did decide to seek some help April 20th by finally giving a blood sample.