pdiddy2011 said:

@Moonbeam - do you have a link to that article? The one that attempts to align his career with hip hop? I recently read an article that talked about P's best hip hop moments and quoted Questlove and why he thought P was hip hop (actually, some of that stuff he describes is more rock n roll - but, whatever), but I don't recall reading an article that tried to align his entire career as hip hop. That would be woefully uninformed.

I totally get the point of view.

But the article reads like some guy who had an epiphany after watching UTCM while having a joint.

If only he had mentioned "Family Name", "Radical Man", "Shadows & Chains", "When Will We B Paid", "Avalanche", "Baltimore"
he would have some credibility. But to take Prince's "white" and black (I think it's called "Jazz") period and try to paint it all black,
I find it a fallacy.

bonatoc said:

pdiddy2011 said:

No, to quite a bit of this...

I'm not going to respond point by point, but I disagree with a lot of your assumptions/conclusions.

First, what is wrong with black people, or any people claiming Prince as black. He was. I don't think that's up for debate. He was a treasure to the black community. Why should black people feel uncomfortable claiming him as black? (Maybe you should consider why its such a problem for you...)

Secondly, Prince clearly liked MANY forms of music and decided early that to reach superstardom he'd have to target diverse listeners. (That is not to say he was not claiming his blackness/ie not playing the race card.) He knew staying only in "black" music circles wouldn't get him the stardom he wanted.

Claiming Prince as black does let Prince be Prince. He was a black man. Whatever he transcended didn't make him any less of a black man.

Your horns are showing, Morris.
Interpretation, and projection.
It's pretty arrogant to assume what motivated Prince.
And a little dumb, because Purple Rain was never made or intended to be a blockbuster.


Really, this reclaming thing, I sense a lot of anger under it.
A useless pride. He was not a champion for the black cause. He was not a "treasure to the black community", his sales post eighties prove it.
The charts, R&B or 200, were not his anymore, if we want to talk music business.

He enhanced the sense of community and party that is genuinely afro-american, and taught little pink asses like me what being cool is.
There's a humour in Prince's work that's all blaxpoitation, at least the dude got UTCM right in his article, even if he goes overboard.
Because it can also cynically be interpreted as Prince going after the rich white folks world, despite the script.

But let us raise our middle fingers to that:
cut me, cut you, both the blood is red.
Like Lennon dissing the hippies that reclaimed him,
so does Prince when one tries to recuperate him for his own agenda.

If the air is a little thick in this room tonight,
I reckon it's the result of an onslaught of separatist rookies

[Edited 11/10/18 13:45pm]

Wow. Where do I start?

Interpretation and projection? It is common knowledge that Prince did not want to be pidgeon-holed into being a "black artist". He had desire to play whatever type of music he wanted, no matter what "black" artists were typically funneled into (R&B, Soul). (And I'm hoping you understand that DOESN'T mean he had a problem with being black, it was more about being able to do anything.)

Purple Rain was never meant to be a blockbuster? What? It was advertised ad nauseum, as was the accompanying World Tour. Was it supposed to be an indie project? And who said anything about Purple Rain, specifically, anyway?

Him being a treasure to the black community has nothing to do with sales and if you don't get that then I'm probably wasting my time anyway.

"He enhanced the sense of community and party that is genuinely afro-american.." What? You clearly like to see yourself write. That is at best nonsensical.

"There's a humour in Prince's work that's all blaxploitation..." As if everything he did that pointed to black ideals was in jest to him? I see this as one of the main problems with people that have such a problem with people showing pride in Prince being black. Just because Prince didn't surround himself with only black people and seemed very comfortable being around all races doesn't mean he cared less about black people or black issues. Just because he didn't allow himself to be cast in the typical "black" role as an entertainer doesn't mean he didn't care about black issues or the black community. Just because Prince didn't stage protests or have a large selection "black pride" songs doesn't mean he was any less black or less important to the black community. Just because he didn't always talk about "black" issues doesn't mean he thought he transcended blackness.

Claiming a hero as a member of your race doesn't make you a separatist.

I find it telling how many people feel the need to make Prince "not really black" or "not so black" or "not racially motivated" as if it then makes their fandom [OF A REAL, TRUE, BLACK MAN] OK.

I mean -- you adore(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You idolize(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You love(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. It's OK. You're not alone.

bonatoc said:

I totally get the point of view.

But the article reads like some guy who had an epiphany after watching UTCM while having a joint.

How dismissive.

pdiddy2011 said:

bonatoc said:

Your horns are showing, Morris.
Interpretation, and projection.
It's pretty arrogant to assume what motivated Prince.
And a little dumb, because Purple Rain was never made or intended to be a blockbuster.


Really, this reclaming thing, I sense a lot of anger under it.
A useless pride. He was not a champion for the black cause. He was not a "treasure to the black community", his sales post eighties prove it.
The charts, R&B or 200, were not his anymore, if we want to talk music business.

He enhanced the sense of community and party that is genuinely afro-american, and taught little pink asses like me what being cool is.
There's a humour in Prince's work that's all blaxpoitation, at least the dude got UTCM right in his article, even if he goes overboard.
Because it can also cynically be interpreted as Prince going after the rich white folks world, despite the script.

But let us raise our middle fingers to that:
cut me, cut you, both the blood is red.
Like Lennon dissing the hippies that reclaimed him,
so does Prince when one tries to recuperate him for his own agenda.

If the air is a little thick in this room tonight,
I reckon it's the result of an onslaught of separatist rookies

[Edited 11/10/18 13:45pm]

I mean -- you adore(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You idolize(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You love(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. It's OK. You're not alone.

I think that subconsciously messes with some people. And causes some also to be decades long ridiculously critical of the man.

pdiddy2011 said:

bonatoc said:

Your horns are showing, Morris.
Interpretation, and projection.
It's pretty arrogant to assume what motivated Prince.
And a little dumb, because Purple Rain was never made or intended to be a blockbuster.


Really, this reclaming thing, I sense a lot of anger under it.
A useless pride. He was not a champion for the black cause. He was not a "treasure to the black community", his sales post eighties prove it.
The charts, R&B or 200, were not his anymore, if we want to talk music business.

He enhanced the sense of community and party that is genuinely afro-american, and taught little pink asses like me what being cool is.
There's a humour in Prince's work that's all blaxpoitation, at least the dude got UTCM right in his article, even if he goes overboard.
Because it can also cynically be interpreted as Prince going after the rich white folks world, despite the script.

But let us raise our middle fingers to that:
cut me, cut you, both the blood is red.
Like Lennon dissing the hippies that reclaimed him,
so does Prince when one tries to recuperate him for his own agenda.

If the air is a little thick in this room tonight,
I reckon it's the result of an onslaught of separatist rookies

[Edited 11/10/18 13:45pm]

Wow. Where do I start?

Interpretation and projection? It is common knowledge that Prince did not want to be pidgeon-holed into being a "black artist". He had desire to play whatever type of music he wanted, no matter what "black" artists were typically funneled into (R&B, Soul). (And I'm hoping you understand that DOESN'T mean he had a problem with being black, it was more about being able to do anything.)

Purple Rain was never meant to be a blockbuster? What? It was advertised ad nauseum, as was the accompanying World Tour. Was it supposed to be an indie project? And who said anything about Purple Rain, specifically, anyway?
It was advertised ad nauseam after the overwhelmingly positive punch cards screenings, which were a big,
big surprise to WB. Don't invert the order of events to your likings.
Of course it was an indie project, it had the budget of a B-movie. Musical movies have always been a niche.
I mention Purple Rain because it's when the racial demographics shifted, according to the above article.


Him being a treasure to the black community has nothing to do with sales and if you don't get that then I'm probably wasting my time anyway.
I'm glad you agree it has nothing to do with sales, you're the one who brought music business considerations into the discussion anyway.


"He enhanced the sense of community and party that is genuinely afro-american.." What? You clearly like to see yourself write. That is at best nonsensical.
It's typical for every diaspora to protect its members. Black culture is kept hermetic because it's about preserving the community.
As for "party", the best laughs comes from despair, and good self-deprecation.
Like jewish humour. It works because it speaks of the community's way to deal with its surroundings. What it means to be an alien.

About party again, or rather about ass wiggling: Have you ever been to a WASP party? Do you think white folks know what party is about? There is no such thing as trance, it is feared since savages were displayed in zoos.
But educated people in the western world dance over black music for almost a century now. I fear you think I was implying "...and that's all afro-american are good at".
Please keep your sensical condescendence to yourself. I always try to write with a purpose, but from afar, geographically and socially: Europe's way to deal with cultures and communities is different than in the US. Black artists were always welcome here with the greatest excitement. We're not your usual redneck. Even our rednecks are smarter and more tolerant than yours. We made "all men are created equals" a law first, way before the american constitution was written. You'll pardon my inherently optimistic views on racial questions.


"There's a humour in Prince's work that's all blaxploitation..." As if everything he did that pointed to black ideals was in jest to him? I see this as one of the main problems with people that have such a problem with people showing pride in Prince being black. Just because Prince didn't surround himself with only black people and seemed very comfortable being around all races doesn't mean he cared less about black people or black issues. Just because he didn't allow himself to be cast in the typical "black" role as an entertainer doesn't mean he didn't care about black issues or the black community. Just because Prince didn't stage protests or have a large selection "black pride" songs doesn't mean he was any less black or less important to the black community. Just because he didn't always talk about "black" issues doesn't mean he thought he transcended blackness.
Of course, but at least give me this: he's no Muhammad Ali, he's no MLK. He was not a black champion precisely because you said so: socio-politics were not his main purpose. He's no Chuck D., and he never approached the kind of acute portrayals Stevie Wonder gave on "Innervisions". That's why it's difficult for me to see this big role in black history you want to stick on Prince.

Claiming a hero as a member of your race doesn't make you a separatist.
Maybe so. But it sure helps keeping people in their respective corrals, right where they want you/me/us to stay.
So what does claiming a hero someone that is not a member of your race make you? A superhero?
I think Prince is a hero precisely because he tried to reach both sides of the fence.
This is not a typical black trait. It's humanism.

I find it telling how many people feel the need to make Prince "not really black" or "not so black" or "not racially motivated" as if it then makes their fandom [OF A REAL, TRUE, BLACK MAN] OK.
That's not my opinion if you take some of your oh so precious time to carefully read my posts. I always found Prince's opinions spot on when it comes to racial questions. AMong many examples, I would have kept on believing this fake spread myth of Lincoln's perfect achievements if it wasn't for Prince questioning them around TRC. I'm thankful for all the forays into the american black culture Prince gave me, the gospel, the pimp humour, the sex. But listening to some of you, it's like white folks can never win: we're not allowed to appreciate the little we know, and we can't learn more because the culture is guarded and black folks won't give us the codes. Prince brought a porosity to it. He gave us white folks some of the codes. He made them accessible without compromising them or washing them away. And yes my friend, black people know more about fun than white people. This is REAL, and a TRUE fact. I don't know why and I couldn't care less.

I mean -- you adore(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You idolize(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You love(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. It's OK. You're not alone.
"It's OK" — May the Lord bless you, you finally opened my eyes, I've been blind all these years.
One thing for sure, you show a conceit that's genuinely white.

[Edited 11/10/18 18:23pm]

rdhull said:

bonatoc said:

I totally get the point of view.

But the article reads like some guy who had an epiphany after watching UTCM while having a joint.

How dismissive.

And how.

"Tricky my boy? Our world". "Give me a Sam Cooke album...".
"Why don't you get a job?". "Yo, Isaac! ...". "And then you get black".

It takes this guy takes whole paragraphs to bring us thirty year old obviousnesses.
And he diverts them to launch a crusade with no meaning: to convince the white layman that Prince is black.
REALLY, and TRULY black, I mean beware of the imitations, you don't want a black made in China, you know, they don't last as long.

bonatoc said:

rdhull said:

How dismissive.

And how.

"Tricky my boy? Our world". "Give me a Sam Cooke album...".
"Why don't you get a job?". "Yo, Isaac! ...". "And then you get black".

It takes this guy takes whole paragraphs to bring us thirty year old obviousnesses.
And he diverts them to launch a crusade with no meaning: to convince the white layman that Prince is black.
REALLY, and TRULY black, I mean beware of the imitations, you don't want a black made in China, you know, they don't last as long.

I know YOU of all people aren't accusing someone else of being excessively wordy/verbose in getting points across lol. Add to the fact that you still dont get the point of the essay lol. And because of that, it seems to have hit a nerve within you (and another it seems).

rdhull said:

bonatoc said:

And how.

"Tricky my boy? Our world". "Give me a Sam Cooke album...".
"Why don't you get a job?". "Yo, Isaac! ...". "And then you get black".

It takes this guy takes whole paragraphs to bring us thirty year old obviousnesses.
And he diverts them to launch a crusade with no meaning: to convince the white layman that Prince is black.
REALLY, and TRULY black, I mean beware of the imitations, you don't want a black made in China, you know, they don't last as long.

I know YOU of all people aren't accusing someone else of being excessively wordy/verbose in getting points across lol. Add to the fact that you still dont get the point of the essay lol. And because of that, it seems to have hit a nerve within you (and another it seems).

pdiddy2011 said:

bonatoc said:

Your horns are showing, Morris.
Interpretation, and projection.
It's pretty arrogant to assume what motivated Prince.
And a little dumb, because Purple Rain was never made or intended to be a blockbuster.


Really, this reclaming thing, I sense a lot of anger under it.
A useless pride. He was not a champion for the black cause. He was not a "treasure to the black community", his sales post eighties prove it.
The charts, R&B or 200, were not his anymore, if we want to talk music business.

He enhanced the sense of community and party that is genuinely afro-american, and taught little pink asses like me what being cool is.
There's a humour in Prince's work that's all blaxpoitation, at least the dude got UTCM right in his article, even if he goes overboard.
Because it can also cynically be interpreted as Prince going after the rich white folks world, despite the script.

But let us raise our middle fingers to that:
cut me, cut you, both the blood is red.
Like Lennon dissing the hippies that reclaimed him,
so does Prince when one tries to recuperate him for his own agenda.

If the air is a little thick in this room tonight,
I reckon it's the result of an onslaught of separatist rookies

[Edited 11/10/18 13:45pm]

Wow. Where do I start?

Interpretation and projection? It is common knowledge that Prince did not want to be pidgeon-holed into being a "black artist". He had desire to play whatever type of music he wanted, no matter what "black" artists were typically funneled into (R&B, Soul). (And I'm hoping you understand that DOESN'T mean he had a problem with being black, it was more about being able to do anything.)

Purple Rain was never meant to be a blockbuster? What? It was advertised ad nauseum, as was the accompanying World Tour. Was it supposed to be an indie project? And who said anything about Purple Rain, specifically, anyway?

Him being a treasure to the black community has nothing to do with sales and if you don't get that then I'm probably wasting my time anyway.

"He enhanced the sense of community and party that is genuinely afro-american.." What? You clearly like to see yourself write. That is at best nonsensical.

"There's a humour in Prince's work that's all blaxploitation..." As if everything he did that pointed to black ideals was in jest to him? I see this as one of the main problems with people that have such a problem with people showing pride in Prince being black. Just because Prince didn't surround himself with only black people and seemed very comfortable being around all races doesn't mean he cared less about black people or black issues. Just because he didn't allow himself to be cast in the typical "black" role as an entertainer doesn't mean he didn't care about black issues or the black community. Just because Prince didn't stage protests or have a large selection "black pride" songs doesn't mean he was any less black or less important to the black community. Just because he didn't always talk about "black" issues doesn't mean he thought he transcended blackness.

Claiming a hero as a member of your race doesn't make you a separatist.

I find it telling how many people feel the need to make Prince "not really black" or "not so black" or "not racially motivated" as if it then makes their fandom [OF A REAL, TRUE, BLACK MAN] OK.

I mean -- you adore(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You idolize(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You love(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. It's OK. You're not alone.

bonatoc said:

pdiddy2011 said:

Wow. Where do I start?

Interpretation and projection? It is common knowledge that Prince did not want to be pidgeon-holed into being a "black artist". He had desire to play whatever type of music he wanted, no matter what "black" artists were typically funneled into (R&B, Soul). (And I'm hoping you understand that DOESN'T mean he had a problem with being black, it was more about being able to do anything.)

Purple Rain was never meant to be a blockbuster? What? It was advertised ad nauseum, as was the accompanying World Tour. Was it supposed to be an indie project? And who said anything about Purple Rain, specifically, anyway?
It was advertised ad nauseam after the overwhelmingly positive punch cards screenings, which were a big,
big surprise to WB. Don't invert the order of events to your likings.
Of course it was an indie project, it had the budget of a B-movie. Musical movies have always been a niche.
I mention Purple Rain because it's when the racial demographics shifted, according to the above article.


Him being a treasure to the black community has nothing to do with sales and if you don't get that then I'm probably wasting my time anyway.
I'm glad you agree it has nothing to do with sales, you're the one who brought music business considerations into the discussion anyway.


"He enhanced the sense of community and party that is genuinely afro-american.." What? You clearly like to see yourself write. That is at best nonsensical.
It's typical for every diaspora to protect its members. Black culture is kept hermetic because it's about preserving the community.
As for "party", the best laughs comes from despair, and good self-deprecation.
Like jewish humour. It works because it speaks of the community's way to deal with its surroundings. What it means to be an alien.

About party again, or rather about ass wiggling: Have you ever been to a WASP party? Do you think white folks know what party is about? There is no such thing as trance, it is feared since savages were displayed in zoos.
But educated people in the western world dance over black music for almost a century now. I fear you think I was implying "...and that's all afro-american are good at".
Please keep your sensical condescendence to yourself. I always try to write with a purpose, but from afar, geographically and socially: Europe's way to deal with cultures and communities is different than in the US. Black artists were always welcome here with the greatest excitement. We're not your usual redneck. Even our rednecks are smarter and more tolerant than yours. We made "all men are created equals" a law first, way before the american constitution was written. You'll pardon my inherently optimistic views on racial questions.


"There's a humour in Prince's work that's all blaxploitation..." As if everything he did that pointed to black ideals was in jest to him? I see this as one of the main problems with people that have such a problem with people showing pride in Prince being black. Just because Prince didn't surround himself with only black people and seemed very comfortable being around all races doesn't mean he cared less about black people or black issues. Just because he didn't allow himself to be cast in the typical "black" role as an entertainer doesn't mean he didn't care about black issues or the black community. Just because Prince didn't stage protests or have a large selection "black pride" songs doesn't mean he was any less black or less important to the black community. Just because he didn't always talk about "black" issues doesn't mean he thought he transcended blackness.
Of course, but at least give me this: he's no Muhammad Ali, he's no MLK. He was not a black champion precisely because you said so: socio-politics were not his main purpose. He's no Chuck D., and he never approached the kind of acute portrayals Stevie Wonder gave on "Innervisions". That's why it's difficult for me to see this big role in black history you want to stick on Prince.

Claiming a hero as a member of your race doesn't make you a separatist.
Maybe so. But it sure helps keeping people in their respective corrals, right where they want you/me/us to stay.
So what does claiming a hero someone that is not a member of your race make you? A superhero?
I think Prince is a hero precisely because he tried to reach both sides of the fence.
This is not a typical black trait. It's humanism.

I find it telling how many people feel the need to make Prince "not really black" or "not so black" or "not racially motivated" as if it then makes their fandom [OF A REAL, TRUE, BLACK MAN] OK.
That's not my opinion if you take some of your oh so precious time to carefully read my posts. I always found Prince's opinions spot on when it comes to racial questions. AMong many examples, I would have kept on believing this fake spread myth of Lincoln's perfect achievements if it wasn't for Prince questioning them around TRC. I'm thankful for all the forays into the american black culture Prince gave me, the gospel, the pimp humour, the sex. But listening to some of you, it's like white folks can never win: we're not allowed to appreciate the little we know, and we can't learn more because the culture is guarded and black folks won't give us the codes. Prince brought a porosity to it. He gave us white folks some of the codes. He made them accessible without compromising them or washing them away. And yes my friend, black people know more about fun than white people. This is REAL, and a TRUE fact. I don't know why and I couldn't care less.

I mean -- you adore(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You idolize(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You love(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. It's OK. You're not alone.
"It's OK" — May the Lord bless you, you finally opened my eyes, I've been blind all these years.
One thing for sure, you show a conceit that's genuinely white.

[Edited 11/10/18 18:23pm]

I'm not going to hit every point because, what would really be the impact? It seems your mind is made up that Prince was a "fringe" black that was a cool teacher to whites.

A couple of issues...

You utilize self-deprecating "humor" in your posts to bring levity to a topic even though you make incredibly insulting generalizations. You can keep your wagging finger of condescension or arrogance. The nerve!


Per you, Prince is no Muhammed Ali, he's no Chuck D, he's no MLK, he's no Stevie Wonder. Why? Because he didn't publicly fight for civil rights? Because he didn't make a huge impact IN YOUR EYES? How do you know what he didn't do "to further the cause" that you don't know about? But as long as he's showing you how to be cool, no big deal?

Just because your community was more "tolerant" of black artists, doesn't mean some of your community doesn't have views about blacks in general that are misinformed or simply wrong. And if you know there is a distinct difference between your community and America in regards to the treatment of blacks, you should more easily understand that what you're saying is insulting. Acting as though he had no substantive stake or impact in real black existence is absurd. (That's what I deduce from the sum total of your words.) Your enjoyment of his gospel, pimp humour, and sex notwithstanding. (Ie he's just here to entertain you.)

Bottom line, he was as black as any other black person. I would love it if some people would stop trying to make him out to be some fantasy human being who didn't see color. Everyone who can see sees color except for the actual colorblind. Despite seeing color, Prince certainly seemed like a diverse thinking, very inclusive, individual. And he was black.

[Edited 11/10/18 19:55pm]

[Edited 11/10/18 19:56pm]

[Edited 11/10/18 19:57pm]

rdhull said:

pdiddy2011 said:

I mean -- you adore(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You idolize(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You love(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. It's OK. You're not alone.

I think that subconsciously messes with some people. And causes some also to be decades long ridiculously critical of the man.

Agreed.
You are not the first to voice that observation, and you will definitely not be the last.

PliablyPurple said:

pdiddy2011 said:

bonatoc said:

[Edited 11/10/18 18:23pm]

I'm not going to hit every point because, what would really be the impact? It seems your mind is made up that Prince was a "fringe" black that was a cool teacher to whites.
I never said exclusively. I'm trying to understand where you place the cursor.

A couple of issues...

You utilize self-deprecating "humor" in your posts to bring levity to a topic even though you make incredibly insulting generalizations. You can keep your wagging finger of condescension or arrogance. The nerve!
15/Love then.

Per you, Prince is no Muhammed Ali, he's no Chuck D, he's no MLK, he's no Stevie Wonder. Why? Because he didn't publicly fight for civil rights? Because he didn't make a huge impact IN YOUR EYES? How do you know what he didn't do "to further the cause" that you don't know about? But as long as he's showing you how to be cool, no big deal?
I'm trying to come up with a clear common defintion of "hero". To me it's a heavy word. I just can't place Prince that high socially speaking, only culturally. I'm not black, so I'll gladly admit I have no say here. I just know that Baltimore moves me, despite the limits of my personal experience. We should be just happy he's a hero on both sides, instead of rippin' him in half. And stop accusing me of "using" Prince as an item. I have a much deeper consideration for him and I think you know it.

Just because your community was more "tolerant" of black artists, doesn't mean some of your community doesn't have views about blacks in general that are misinformed or simply wrong. And if you know there is a distinct difference between your community and America in regards to the treatment of blacks, you should more easily understand that what you're saying is insulting. Acting as though he had no substantive stake or impact in real black existence is absurd. (That's what I deduce from the sum total of your words.) Your enjoyment of his gospel, pimp humour, and sex notwithstanding. (Ie he's just here to entertain you.)
That is very true. Colonialism is still very fresh, and progress in medecine keep old angry farts alive longer. But educated people, which in the end rule the world, know better. Prince is a hero for the LGBT, he's a hero to lucky to be open minded persons, he's a hero to more than one community. This is not denying its origins, but rather expanding what could have been only insular.

There are clearly limits to identification: Europe did not witness the centuries (and counting) long fight for equal rights. It's true I only have little more than the postcard aspect of the afro-american. "Roots", stuff like that. A Jamie Foxx stand up. The riots, Rodney King, trying to understand the impact of Oprah. Watching "Dear White People". Alas, small stuff, grabbed here and there, it all comes in pieces and from the outside, certainly far from living in a country where the only majority your race gets is prison population (and overwhelmingly so). And of course, the revolting shooting of a black kid in a public park, and the many more in the back the year of Baltimore. 41 Shots didn't budge a thing, it just got worse. Writing songs is fine, but to me real "heroes" are social workers, not poets. Poets can only inspire, and it would be unfair to ask them for more, or to give them a grand role they never asked for in the first place.

I'm into Prince for the music first and foremost, I was a musician before I knew him. I started early. I experienced Lovesexy at just the right age. I still deeply believe in his utopia of race and gender abolition, because it's the ideal basis that will inevitably get eroded by the inertia of the minds when comes the time to make it real. But at least it's a goal that has balls, it's the greatest ambition.

Prince just here to entertain me? You're putting words in my mouth. My enjoyment comes much more from "Shadows and Chains" or "United States of Division". It's true I miss a lot of components and aspects of what it's like to be black in America, but culture is amassing information, which has to be digested, confronted. It doesn't happen overnight. And my goal is not to become black, it's to understand and feel. If I can have a funny segue and get more black culture (like mashed potatoes) in the process, the better. Now you're probably gonna accuse me of considering Prince just a scholar source for my bizarre curiosity for all things blaque, am I right? Leave it Honey, we're not enemies. Myself, I wish we all were nude. I'm naive that way, even if "she killed black children" entered my brain and never leaved. I'm an optimistic who refuses the idea that some white critics or historian deny Prince's origins, because that would mean denying Prince's very personality, who he truly is and where he comes from. I'm not revolted at you. I'm revolted at the realization such articles are still needed in 2018. But are they really? Or is it trying to convince people that would not deviate from their mindset anyway?
That's what I mean by "useless" article. Making sure Prince doesn't get distorted may seem important, but the truth is, once someone gets past the casual and the hits, it's pretty obvious we're in Uptown. Ignoring Prince's origins and upbringing is ignoring Prince altogether, so why bother? Let them scratch the surface. Their loss. I choose to ignore them. There must be better ways to keep the story true. I think his songs speak quite clear already. No need to call a black uncle to the rescue.

Bottom line, he was as black as any other black person. I would love it if some people would stop trying to make him out to be some fantasy human being who didn't see color. Everyone who can see sees color except for the actual colorblind. Despite seeing color, Prince certainly seemed like a diverse thinking, very inclusive, individual. And he was black.

Some butterscotch fans still would like believe he was an alien amongst aliens. I admit I fell for the italian blood story, but not fot the wrong reasons, au contraire. It just gave a possible physical embodiment to the multi, or rather "pan-racial" concept he introduced on Controversy. Please understand that "I wish there was no black and white" can equally resonate into a white folk's heart. When I open a history book, it's pretty clear I was born in the most barbarian camp. No continent has been spared. If the mulatto had been a thing, the race transcendance would have been physically real. And the mulatto isolation would have been even worse, imagine being 2% of 2%. It's not such a big deal in the end, but it would have been great because no one could have really claimed him then. But that became Michael Jackson's utopia. Prince stayed grounded Uptown.

Remember, as fans we lived a whole naive first decade where all these questions were raised from Controversy on, and purple was an impossible skin color enough to make it the perfect utopian banner under which we could seemingly all unite pretend our grand-grand-parents, or some relative, or some relative's relative, was not a victim, or wasn't an accomplice of mass deportation of men, women and children, or the crusades, or the khmers, or whatever past centuries atrocities we're inevitably linked to, if we consider the human race as one. I mean kudos to the German people to not fall into either deep paranoia or perpetual paralysis after what the nazis did. Now they welcome immigrants and refugees more than any other G7 country. It doesn't and should not erase the memory of past atrocities. But that something very different could grow from the ashes of the worst in men is still one more reason to keep a little faith.

The whole problem I see with "reclaiming" Prince, is that I don't think no one "claimed" him in the first place, especially not the white folks. They certainly lack culture for the most part, but I don't think the article is about educating, rather to point the finger at such supposedly inexcusable lack of black culture.
"Reclaim". It's like you want to get him back. But, as you said, he's always been black, right from the beginning. "Sexy Dancer" could not be white. I quickly realized I was not listening to George Michael or Pink Floyd or Springsteen. If anything, some semi-cultivated and open minded pink dudes like myself got through the joint's back door and crashed the black folks party. UTCM in reverse. I confess, I sneaked in. Please don't kick me outta the wrecka stow because of the colour of my skin.

Please be patient and give me some blatant examples of the "mayonnaise guild" (is this mildly xenophobic or am I being paranoid as usual?) denying Prince's roots and I'll admit my ignorance and the need for such a paper. Still, the homophobic slant on IIWYG, so much for the dark side of black... Is Jamie Foxx funny when he suggest sexual insecurity when confronted to a beautiful male like Prince? Or is it the same mild, übercool homosexual bashing found amongst white, red and yellow folks that makes yet another minority the latest target in town? I'm not that easily entertained. Like Joni sang: I'm not that easily led.

[Edited 11/10/18 22:26pm]

[Edited 11/10/18 22:35pm]

[Edited 11/10/18 22:52pm]

rogifan said:

OldFriends4Sale said:

and the posts about Prince being a 'political figure' eeek

I cringed when this chick on MSNBC said Prince was sending a message with his fro. Um actually Prince was going through his Hendrix/70s rocker phase with 3EG. That’s probably the only message he was sending with the fro.

That and he was likely tired of having to sit for hours getting his hair done. IJS...it happens.

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

bonatoc said:

pdiddy2011 said:

I'm not going to hit every point because, what would really be the impact? It seems your mind is made up that Prince was a "fringe" black that was a cool teacher to whites.
I never said exclusively. I'm trying to understand where you place the cursor.

A couple of issues...

You utilize self-deprecating "humor" in your posts to bring levity to a topic even though you make incredibly insulting generalizations. You can keep your wagging finger of condescension or arrogance. The nerve!
15/Love then.

Per you, Prince is no Muhammed Ali, he's no Chuck D, he's no MLK, he's no Stevie Wonder. Why? Because he didn't publicly fight for civil rights? Because he didn't make a huge impact IN YOUR EYES? How do you know what he didn't do "to further the cause" that you don't know about? But as long as he's showing you how to be cool, no big deal?
I'm trying to come up with a clear common defintion of "hero". To me it's a heavy word. I just can't place Prince that high socially speaking, only culturally. I'm not black, so I'll gladly admit I have no say here. I just know that Baltimore moves me, despite the limits of my personal experience. We should be just happy he's a hero on both sides, instead of rippin' him in half. And stop accusing me of "using" Prince as an item. I have a much deeper consideration for him and I think you know it.

Just because your community was more "tolerant" of black artists, doesn't mean some of your community doesn't have views about blacks in general that are misinformed or simply wrong. And if you know there is a distinct difference between your community and America in regards to the treatment of blacks, you should more easily understand that what you're saying is insulting. Acting as though he had no substantive stake or impact in real black existence is absurd. (That's what I deduce from the sum total of your words.) Your enjoyment of his gospel, pimp humour, and sex notwithstanding. (Ie he's just here to entertain you.)
That is very true. Colonialism is still very fresh, and progress in medecine keep old angry farts alive longer. But educated people, which in the end rule the world, know better. Prince is a hero for the LGBT, he's a hero to lucky to be open minded persons, he's a hero to more than one community. This is not denying its origins, but rather expanding what could have been only insular.

There are clearly limits to identification: Europe did not witness the centuries (and counting) long fight for equal rights. It's true I only have little more than the postcard aspect of the afro-american. "Roots", stuff like that. A Jamie Foxx stand up. The riots, Rodney King, trying to understand the impact of Oprah. Watching "Dear White People". Alas, small stuff, grabbed here and there, it all comes in pieces and from the outside, certainly far from living in a country where the only majority your race gets is prison population (and overwhelmingly so). And of course, the revolting shooting of a black kid in a public park, and the many more in the back the year of Baltimore. 41 Shots didn't budge a thing, it just got worse. Writing songs is fine, but to me real "heroes" are social workers, not poets. Poets can only inspire, and it would be unfair to ask them for more, or to give them a grand role they never asked for in the first place.

I'm into Prince for the music first and foremost, I was a musician before I knew him. I started early. I experienced Lovesexy at just the right age. I still deeply believe in his utopia of race and gender abolition, because it's the ideal basis that will inevitably get eroded by the inertia of the minds when comes the time to make it real. But at least it's a goal that has balls, it's the greatest ambition.

Prince just here to entertain me? You're putting words in my mouth. My enjoyment comes much more from "Shadows and Chains" or "United States of Division". It's true I miss a lot of components and aspects of what it's like to be black in America, but culture is amassing information, which has to be digested, confronted. It doesn't happen overnight. And my goal is not to become black, it's to understand and feel. If I can have a funny segue and get more black culture (like mashed potatoes) in the process, the better. Now you're probably gonna accuse me of considering Prince just a scholar source for my bizarre curiosity for all things blaque, am I right? Leave it Honey, we're not enemies. Myself, I wish we all were nude. I'm naive that way, even if "she killed black children" entered my brain and never leaved. I'm an optimistic who refuses the idea that some white critics or historian deny Prince's origins, because that would mean denying Prince's very personality, who he truly is and where he comes from. I'm not revolted at you. I'm revolted at the realization such articles are still needed in 2018. But are they really? Or is it trying to convince people that would not deviate from their mindset anyway?
That's what I mean by "useless" article. Making sure Prince doesn't get distorted may seem important, but the truth is, once someone gets past the casual and the hits, it's pretty obvious we're in Uptown. Ignoring Prince's origins and upbringing is ignoring Prince altogether, so why bother? Let them scratch the surface. Their loss. I choose to ignore them. There must be better ways to keep the story true. I think his songs speak quite clear already. No need to call a black uncle to the rescue.

Bottom line, he was as black as any other black person. I would love it if some people would stop trying to make him out to be some fantasy human being who didn't see color. Everyone who can see sees color except for the actual colorblind. Despite seeing color, Prince certainly seemed like a diverse thinking, very inclusive, individual. And he was black.

Some butterscotch fans still would like believe he was an alien amongst aliens. I admit I fell for the italian blood story, but not fot the wrong reasons, au contraire. It just gave a possible physical embodiment to the multi, or rather "pan-racial" concept he introduced on Controversy. Please understand that "I wish there was no black and white" can equally resonate into a white folk's heart. When I open a history book, it's pretty clear I was born in the most barbarian camp. No continent has been spared. If the mulatto had been a thing, the race transcendance would have been physically real. And the mulatto isolation would have been even worse, imagine being 2% of 2%. It's not such a big deal in the end, but it would have been great because no one could have really claimed him then. But that became Michael Jackson's utopia. Prince stayed grounded Uptown.

Remember, as fans we lived a whole naive first decade where all these questions were raised from Controversy on, and purple was an impossible skin color enough to make it the perfect utopian banner under which we could seemingly all unite pretend our grand-grand-parents, or some relative, or some relative's relative, was not a victim, or wasn't an accomplice of mass deportation of men, women and children, or the crusades, or the khmers, or whatever past centuries atrocities we're inevitably linked to, if we consider the human race as one. I mean kudos to the German people to not fall into either deep paranoia or perpetual paralysis after what the nazis did. Now they welcome immigrants and refugees more than any other G7 country. It doesn't and should not erase the memory of past atrocities. But that something very different could grow from the ashes of the worst in men is still one more reason to keep a little faith.

The whole problem I see with "reclaiming" Prince, is that I don't think no one "claimed" him in the first place, especially not the white folks. They certainly lack culture for the most part, but I don't think the article is about educating, rather to point the finger at such supposedly inexcusable lack of black culture.
"Reclaim". It's like you want to get him back. But, as you said, he's always been black, right from the beginning. "Sexy Dancer" could not be white. I quickly realized I was not listening to George Michael or Pink Floyd or Springsteen. If anything, some semi-cultivated and open minded pink dudes like myself got through the joint's back door and crashed the black folks party. UTCM in reverse. I confess, I sneaked in. Please don't kick me outta the wrecka stow because of the colour of my skin.

Please be patient and give me some blatant examples of the "mayonnaise guild" (is this mildly xenophobic or am I being paranoid as usual?) denying Prince's roots and I'll admit my ignorance and the need for such a paper. Still, the homophobic slant on IIWYG, so much for the dark side of black... Is Jamie Foxx funny when he suggest sexual insecurity when confronted to a beautiful male like Prince? Or is it the same mild, übercool homosexual bashing found amongst white, red and yellow folks that makes yet another minority the latest target in town? I'm not that easily entertained. Like Joni sang: I'm not that easily led.

[Edited 11/10/18 22:26pm]

[Edited 11/10/18 22:35pm]

[Edited 11/10/18 22:52pm]

I've got to move on now, work to do, but thanks for the honest discussion. (I'm sure we could go back and forth on this issue for the next year... and beyond!)

FYI - "mayonnaise guild" is not my quote or reference, so that's up to the poster to speak to.

Mayonnaise is White people, and Miracle Whip is Black people? Am I right?

HatrinaHaterwitz said:

ufoclub said:

iZsaZsa said:

Mayonnaise is White people, and Miracle Whip is Black people? Am I right?

Take my coffee, don't U touch my cream.

pdiddy2011 said:

bonatoc said:

[Edited 11/10/18 22:26pm]

[Edited 11/10/18 22:35pm]

[Edited 11/10/18 22:52pm]

I've got to move on now, work to do, but thanks for the honest discussion. (I'm sure we could go back and forth on this issue for the next year... and beyond!)

FYI - "mayonnaise guild" is not my quote or reference, so that's up to the poster to speak to.

Thank you.

To stay on the suject of critics, Rolling Stone, for what it's still worth, has a Top 20
that's half mayo, half Miracle Whip. So the common layman can't ignore the facts.
But the Top 5 sees alas no miracle (no critical honesty).
The Rolling Stones or Elvis wouldn't be in it without their fascination for the primal beat. Food for thought. Pass the peas.

bonatoc said:

iZsaZsa said:

Mayonnaise is White people, and Miracle Whip is Black people? Am I right?

Take my coffee, don't U touch my cream.

You never would have drank my coffee if I had never served you cream.

iZsaZsa said:

bonatoc said:

Take my coffee, don't U touch my cream.

You never would have drank my coffee if I had never served you cream.

Damn U, you just gave my the funk face!

Rolling Stone gave Prince two pages when he died.
Two.

Now here's what I consider a fine article on the subject.
It was posted by Lovejunky in 2017.
The title is impeccable (oh, hello D').

He may have the mulatto thing wrong, but it doesn't matter.
Prince becale indeed butterscotch, maybe by sleep deprivation,
but that's a fact: it is one of the possible reasons for Prince to feel rejected.
But he also found an identity of his own: the curse turned out to be a blessing.

[Edited 11/11/18 14:34pm]

[Edited 11/11/18 14:48pm]

pdiddy2011 said:

bonatoc said:

Your horns are showing, Morris.
Interpretation, and projection.
It's pretty arrogant to assume what motivated Prince.
And a little dumb, because Purple Rain was never made or intended to be a blockbuster.


Really, this reclaming thing, I sense a lot of anger under it.
A useless pride. He was not a champion for the black cause. He was not a "treasure to the black community", his sales post eighties prove it.
The charts, R&B or 200, were not his anymore, if we want to talk music business.

He enhanced the sense of community and party that is genuinely afro-american, and taught little pink asses like me what being cool is.
There's a humour in Prince's work that's all blaxpoitation, at least the dude got UTCM right in his article, even if he goes overboard.
Because it can also cynically be interpreted as Prince going after the rich white folks world, despite the script.

But let us raise our middle fingers to that:
cut me, cut you, both the blood is red.
Like Lennon dissing the hippies that reclaimed him,
so does Prince when one tries to recuperate him for his own agenda.

If the air is a little thick in this room tonight,
I reckon it's the result of an onslaught of separatist rookies

[Edited 11/10/18 13:45pm]

Wow. Where do I start?

Interpretation and projection? It is common knowledge that Prince did not want to be pidgeon-holed into being a "black artist". He had desire to play whatever type of music he wanted, no matter what "black" artists were typically funneled into (R&B, Soul). (And I'm hoping you understand that DOESN'T mean he had a problem with being black, it was more about being able to do anything.)

Purple Rain was never meant to be a blockbuster? What? It was advertised ad nauseum, as was the accompanying World Tour. Was it supposed to be an indie project? And who said anything about Purple Rain, specifically, anyway?

Him being a treasure to the black community has nothing to do with sales and if you don't get that then I'm probably wasting my time anyway.

"He enhanced the sense of community and party that is genuinely afro-american.." What? You clearly like to see yourself write. That is at best nonsensical.

"There's a humour in Prince's work that's all blaxploitation..." As if everything he did that pointed to black ideals was in jest to him? I see this as one of the main problems with people that have such a problem with people showing pride in Prince being black. Just because Prince didn't surround himself with only black people and seemed very comfortable being around all races doesn't mean he cared less about black people or black issues. Just because he didn't allow himself to be cast in the typical "black" role as an entertainer doesn't mean he didn't care about black issues or the black community. Just because Prince didn't stage protests or have a large selection "black pride" songs doesn't mean he was any less black or less important to the black community. Just because he didn't always talk about "black" issues doesn't mean he thought he transcended blackness.

Claiming a hero as a member of your race doesn't make you a separatist.

I find it telling how many people feel the need to make Prince "not really black" or "not so black" or "not racially motivated" as if it then makes their fandom [OF A REAL, TRUE, BLACK MAN] OK.

I mean -- you adore(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You idolize(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. You love(d) A REAL BLACK MAN. It's OK. You're not alone.