violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

it's still a sad story to me, it's not all her fault, the way men treat women is often vile, and i think she got an early dose of that from whoever it was who molested her when she was young.

Right, Pete. In discussing Vanity here I got to thinking about her early life, and how that may have affected her choices and career, as well as, the time period and culture with regard to how women were treated back then. She had stated that her Father was both physically and sexually abusive toward her. I can see how this would lead to feelings of low self worth and other emotional issues. I'm sure she also knew from a very young age how attractive she was.

*

Early on in her career she had done some nude scenes in films along with modeling. Then moved on to embody the Vanity persona, which was based on sexuality and sexual explicitness. In watching many of her television interviews both with male and femaile hosts, but especially with male hosts, she was very objectified, and the questions/discussion always focused on her clothes, sexuality, and of course personal questions about her relationship with Prince. It seems she was never taken seriously there. She handled herself very well, and played along. She also of course defended the Vanity persona because that was her professional identity.

*

If you look at the TV, film, and even music industry in the 70's and 80's - women, with the exception of a few who were very talented and broke free of the sexual objectification, had to deal with projecting a pretty and/or sexual image on stage or screen. If you were not considered one of the "elite" female actors you had to be very attractive, and were given roles that exploited that. In most of the comedies or dramas of that time there were always beautiful women with their clothes off (Private School, whch actually used the song Nasty Girl, Welcome To America, Fast Times At Ridgemont High, and on and on), so they often were typecast for those roles. Even Purple Rain was criticized for objectifying women and for some of the misogynistic scenes.

*

So, if you take someone like Vanity, although strong willed with a tough exterior, but who has already suffered early sexual abuse and is emotionally scarred from that, and then has to live her life as a sexual figure both on the stage and screen, I can see how that could cause a spiral downward and feelings of low self worth. I can also see how the drugs would become an escape from those feelings. I imagine it is very difficult when you want to be taken seriously, but are only seen as a sex object - the "Marilyn Monroe" saga. I think if she had been able to play the Mary Magdelene role that she was offered in the Martin Scorsese film in '84 and had positive reviews, things may have been different for her with her career.

[Edited 9/19/18 11:47am]

*

Where did you read (apart from Prince.org) or what interview does Denise state that she was sexually molested by her father? Please share the link.

luvgirl said:

violetcrush said:

Right, Pete. In discussing Vanity here I got to thinking about her early life, and how that may have affected her choices and career, as well as, the time period and culture with regard to how women were treated back then. She had stated that her Father was both physically and sexually abusive toward her. I can see how this would lead to feelings of low self worth and other emotional issues. I'm sure she also knew from a very young age how attractive she was.

*

Early on in her career she had done some nude scenes in films along with modeling. Then moved on to embody the Vanity persona, which was based on sexuality and sexual explicitness. In watching many of her television interviews both with male and femaile hosts, but especially with male hosts, she was very objectified, and the questions/discussion always focused on her clothes, sexuality, and of course personal questions about her relationship with Prince. It seems she was never taken seriously there. She handled herself very well, and played along. She also of course defended the Vanity persona because that was her professional identity.

*

If you look at the TV, film, and even music industry in the 70's and 80's - women, with the exception of a few who were very talented and broke free of the sexual objectification, had to deal with projecting a pretty and/or sexual image on stage or screen. If you were not considered one of the "elite" female actors you had to be very attractive, and were given roles that exploited that. In most of the comedies or dramas of that time there were always beautiful women with their clothes off (Private School, whch actually used the song Nasty Girl, Welcome To America, Fast Times At Ridgemont High, and on and on), so they often were typecast for those roles. Even Purple Rain was criticized for objectifying women and for some of the misogynistic scenes.

*

So, if you take someone like Vanity, although strong willed with a tough exterior, but who has already suffered early sexual abuse and is emotionally scarred from that, and then has to live her life as a sexual figure both on the stage and screen, I can see how that could cause a spiral downward and feelings of low self worth. I can also see how the drugs would become an escape from those feelings. I imagine it is very difficult when you want to be taken seriously, but are only seen as a sex object - the "Marilyn Monroe" saga. I think if she had been able to play the Mary Magdelene role that she was offered in the Martin Scorsese film in '84 and had positive reviews, things may have been different for her with her career.

[Edited 9/19/18 11:47am]

*

Where did you read (apart from Prince.org) or what interview does Denise state that she was sexually molested by her father? Please share the link.

There is a youtube Video out there somewhere...

Denise..(no longer Vanity) confirms it, and also gives LOTS of Praise to Jesus and Halleluyahs ..

If I find it Ill post the link

Lovejunky said:

luvgirl said:

*

Where did you read (apart from Prince.org) or what interview does Denise state that she was sexually molested by her father? Please share the link.

There is a youtube Video out there somewhere...

Denise..(no longer Vanity) confirms it, and also gives LOTS of Praise to Jesus and Halleluyahs ..

If I find it Ill post the link

*

Do you have the link, please? What's the youtube video called?

luvgirl said:

Lovejunky said:

There is a youtube Video out there somewhere...

Denise..(no longer Vanity) confirms it, and also gives LOTS of Praise to Jesus and Halleluyahs ..

If I find it Ill post the link

*

Do you have the link, please? What's the youtube video called?

HERE

[Edited 9/19/18 20:47pm]

Lovejunky said:

luvgirl said:

*

Do you have the link, please? What's the youtube video called?

HERE

[Edited 9/19/18 20:47pm]

*

No, she did not say that she was sexually abused here. She said she was abused. It's widely known that she was physically abused by her father. He was a monster. She writes about that abuse in her book. I have sermons where she literally states that she was abused physically and verbally. I've never heard her say or write that she was abused sexually. I've only read that here through hearsay. If you know of an interview where she speaks of a sexual abuse please share the link.

[Edited 9/19/18 21:47pm]

luvgirl said:

Lovejunky said:

HERE

[Edited 9/19/18 20:47pm]

*

No, she did not say that she was sexually abused here. She said she was abused. It's widely known that she was physically abused by her father. He was a monster. She writes about that abuse in her book. I have sermons where she literally states that she was abused physically and verbally. I've never heard her say or write that she was abused sexually. I've only read that here through hearsay. If you know of an interview where she speaks of a sexual abuse please share the link.

[Edited 9/19/18 21:47pm]

i've read/heard it several places and as common as it was, I ain't surprised. Lot of people never overcome something like that. I've often wondered if Prince was sexually abused too. It was just so common back then, it's probably still common enough but back then, you remember, people didn't really talk about it that much.

peggyon said:

Sananda M. mentioned he had the same obsessive drive and indicated it was because he was the "Illigitimate" child of a religious mother who had an affair with a married man. She prioitized Jesus

over him and of course he could not compete.

He said his drive was a direct result of maternal rejection. Prince? Vanity? Madonna? (mother died early) MJ's father was abusive etc. Bruce had a depressed/rejecting dad.

I read somewhere, there are no accidental stars.

[Edited 9/19/18 18:47pm]

[Edited 9/19/18 18:49pm]

Bruce said his dad was actually paranoid schizophrenic which is surprising, most of those really don't function that well yet douglas springsteen managed to at least pay the bills somewhat. I never heard my man TTD say that but it wouldn't surprise me, just one reason i wish he'd write a book so i could know more about him.

PeteSilas said:

*

I understand you heard it. I'd actually like to listen/view the source for myself where Denise actually said this. I've read her book, I've listened to her sermons and interviews. Not once did I ever here her say she was sexually abused. She mentions being physically abused only, in all of them. I've heard and read people comment on her being sexually abused as well, but not even in the testimony of her book did she state that she was sexually abused.
[Edited 9/20/18 4:02am]

luvgirl said:

PeteSilas said:

Bruce said his dad was actually paranoid schizophrenic which is surprising, most of those really don't function that well yet douglas springsteen managed to at least pay the bills somewhat. I never heard my man TTD say that but it wouldn't surprise me, just one reason i wish he'd write a book so i could know more about him.

* I understand you heard it. I'd actually like to listen/view the source for myself where Denise actually said this. I've read her book, I've listened to her sermons and interviews. Not once did I ever here her say she was sexually abused. She mentions being physically abused only, in all of them. I've heard and read people comment on her being sexually abused as well, but not even in the testimony of her book did she state that she was sexually abused. [Edited 9/20/18 4:02am]

Physical abuse, especially Father to Daughter, often includes sexual abuse - not in every case, but it is very common. Either way, she was emotionally and physically scarred by her Father. In the interview that I heard on YT (might be the same as the link provided - I didn't check the link) she said she forgave him and that he was in Hell now.

*

Just watched the link. That is the same video that I watched. She has such clarity in this video. So well spoken and seems geniunely happy. She is so naturally beautiful - she didn't need all of the makeup that she wore as Vanity. It is a bit disturbing though, that the host still referred to her as Vanity at the end of the interview - he said Denise, but he said Vanity first. I guess she never fully got away from that name in public appearances.

[Edited 9/20/18 5:25am]

[Edited 9/20/18 5:41am]

PeteSilas said:

luvgirl said:

*

No, she did not say that she was sexually abused here. She said she was abused. It's widely known that she was physically abused by her father. He was a monster. She writes about that abuse in her book. I have sermons where she literally states that she was abused physically and verbally. I've never heard her say or write that she was abused sexually. I've only read that here through hearsay. If you know of an interview where she speaks of a sexual abuse please share the link.

[Edited 9/19/18 21:47pm]

i've read/heard it several places and as common as it was, I ain't surprised. Lot of people never overcome something like that. I've often wondered if Prince was sexually abused too. It was just so common back then, it's probably still common enough but back then, you remember, people didn't really talk about it that much.

Well, if you take his song Sister as autobiographical then he would have suffered sexual abuse. However, the rumor with that song is that the Nuns who made him stand out on the street while they washed his car were the inspiration for that song. Don't think that has been confirmed though.

*

violetcrush said:

*

Her father was a horrible human being. She was indeed emotionally and physically scarred by him. In Blame It On Vanity, she goes into great details about the type of physical abuse she suffered from his hands. She invoked nothing sexual.

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

i've read/heard it several places and as common as it was, I ain't surprised. Lot of people never overcome something like that. I've often wondered if Prince was sexually abused too. It was just so common back then, it's probably still common enough but back then, you remember, people didn't really talk about it that much.

Well, if you take his song Sister as autobiographical then he would have suffered sexual abuse. However, the rumor with that song is that the Nuns who made him stand out on the street while they washed his car were the inspiration for that song. Don't think that has been confirmed though.

*

I was only sixteen but I guess that's no excuse
My sister was thirty-two, lovely, and loose
She don't wear no underwear
She says it only gets in her hair
And it's got a funny way of stoppin' the juice

My sister never made love to anyone else but me
She's the reason for my, uh, sexuality
She showed me where it's supposed to go
A blowjob doesn't mean blow
Incest is everything it's said to be

*

He did have much older Sisters, so who knows....Or the Nuns, plus something he read or saw on TV gave him the idea for the song.

in the black community black women were often called sisters as a term of endermeant and men

likewise were called bro or brother or brotherman. so indeed who knows.

purplefam99 said:

violetcrush said:

Well, if you take his song Sister as autobiographical then he would have suffered sexual abuse. However, the rumor with that song is that the Nuns who made him stand out on the street while they washed his car were the inspiration for that song. Don't think that has been confirmed though.

*

I was only sixteen but I guess that's no excuse
My sister was thirty-two, lovely, and loose
She don't wear no underwear
She says it only gets in her hair
And it's got a funny way of stoppin' the juice

My sister never made love to anyone else but me
She's the reason for my, uh, sexuality
She showed me where it's supposed to go
A blowjob doesn't mean blow
Incest is everything it's said to be

*

He did have much older Sisters, so who knows....Or the Nuns, plus something he read or saw on TV gave him the idea for the song.

in the black community black women were often called sisters as a term of endermeant and men

likewise were called bro or brother or brotherman. so indeed who knows.

Right, but in this particular song he is definitely referring to one of his half sisters, as the last line is "incest is everything it's said to be". If he meant "sister" as the general term of endearment toward a black woman the song wouldn't be about incest. It's very possible that he created this song to follow the other songs on Dirty Mind, as they are focused on the darker or more racey subjects, which was the intentional theme for the album.

violetcrush said:

I think that last line could be all part of the racey lure.
Imo
[Edited 9/20/18 11:20am]

purplefam99 said:

Right. I'm inclined to think this song was fabricated in order to add to the darker theme for the album. Whether true or not it is definitely referring to incest. He sings "my sister" - not "the" or "that" sister. Also, I don't recall him using the term sister to describe a woman he was intimate with - it was usually "baby", "girl" "honey", etc. At his last P&M show, before he played Black Muse he did speak to the crowd and said "Let me speak to my sisters", but that was spoken word and not lyrics.
[Edited 9/20/18 12:52pm]

luvgirl said:

violetcrush said:

Physical abuse, especially Father to Daughter, often includes sexual abuse - not in every case, but it is very common. Either way, she was emotionally and physically scarred by her Father. In the interview that I heard on YT (might be the same as the link provided - I didn't check the link) she said she forgave him and that he was in Hell now.

*

Just watched the link. That is the same video that I watched. She has such clarity in this video. So well spoken and seems geniunely happy. She is so naturally beautiful - she didn't need all of the makeup that she wore as Vanity. It is a bit disturbing though, that the host still referred to her as Vanity at the end of the interview - he said Denise, but he said Vanity first. I guess she never fully got away from that name in public appearances.

[Edited 9/20/18 5:25am]

[Edited 9/20/18 5:41am]

* Her father was a horrible human being. She was indeed emotionally and physically scarred by him. In Blame It On Vanity, she goes into great details about the type of physical abuse she suffered from his hands. She invoked nothing sexual.

i saw a vid on youtube where she said it, I think, sorry, i often listen to vids but not watch closely. anyway, her demeanor was completely different, she was somber,sober, no smiles and giggles as per usual. it was a joan rivers interview, kinda stupid because joan brought out some muscleguy to dance in front of her. anyway, i though of how people change when they are drunk/high, some are happy, some are angry, some come to life but vanity seemed fanatical, clear headed but no smarter than she was. let me stop, god bless her.

PeteSilas said:

I think Joan had her on a few times. Unfortunate that she chose that interview to discuss any abuse, because Joan was just going for laughs on her shows. She was not looking to have a serious conversation. How unfortunate that she brought out a male dancer during that exchange, but I'm sure it was already planned. I do vaguely remember watching a clip of them talking and I think Joan takes her hand at one point, or comforts her in some way.

violetcrush said:

PeteSilas said:

i saw a vid on youtube where she said it, I think, sorry, i often listen to vids but not watch closely. anyway, her demeanor was completely different, she was somber,sober, no smiles and giggles as per usual. it was a joan rivers interview, kinda stupid because joan brought out some muscleguy to dance in front of her. anyway, i though of how people change when they are drunk/high, some are happy, some are angry, some come to life but vanity seemed fanatical, clear headed but no smarter than she was. let me stop, god bless her.

I think Joan had her on a few times. Unfortunate that she chose that interview to discuss any abuse, because Joan was just going for laughs on her shows. She was not looking to have a serious conversation. How unfortunate that she brought out a male dancer during that exchange, but I'm sure it was already planned. I do vaguely remember watching a clip of them talking and I think Joan takes her hand at one point, or comforts her in some way.

here is the segment where v mentions being molested, she doesn't say who: https://www.youtube.com/w...OMLENMHTzA 3:32, she then mentions our boy in a not too flattering way.

violetcrush said:

I’m inclined to think the way he came up with lyrics was not to far from
The same type of stream of conscience as spoken word. What better way
For him to continue to confuse an let us build the mystery.

But I get what ur saying
[Edited 9/20/18 13:44pm]

PeteSilas said:

Was just about to post the video too. The interview is separated into 3 segments on YT. I watched all of them and the last segment is the male stripper who they brought on because he was also a church goer and believed in God. Joan's point was that you can have a balance of work life and religion and not have to devote your entire life to it. The guy made a point that he felt Vanity was trading one dependency for another - religion instead of drugs. He said, but that's fine if that's making you happy. I see why Joan had him on the show. I'm guessing it may have been her Father who molested her, as it seems he was the abusive person in her life. She had mentioned being abused in the first segment.
*
Yes, she did have a negative tone when mentioning Prince, and it was related to going down the wrong road. This is why I roll my eyes at those who insist that she and Prince were still seeing each other, or that hexstill wanted to be with her and she him. If anything, it seems she had nothing but regret about choosing to be with him, and a bit of spite for the way he treats her - which is understandable.
[Edited 9/20/18 14:41pm]

violetcrush said:

Okay, just watched the rest of the 3rd segment with the self proclaimed "healer" dude, who was not an ordained minister and had no education in religion. His account of how he started "delivering" people was actually quite creepy. To me, it reeks of those cult leaders who prey on vulnerable people. Wondering how much money he got from them through the years.

violetcrush said:

violetcrush said:

Was just about to post the video too. The interview is separated into 3 segments on YT. I watched all of them and the last segment is the male stripper who they brought on because he was also a church goer and believed in God. Joan's point was that you can have a balance of work life and religion and not have to devote your entire life to it. The guy made a point that he felt Vanity was trading one dependency for another - religion instead of drugs. He said, but that's fine if that's making you happy. I see why Joan had him on the show. I'm guessing it may have been her Father who molested her, as it seems he was the abusive person in her life. She had mentioned being abused in the first segment. * Yes, she did have a negative tone when mentioning Prince, and it was related to going down the wrong road. This is why I roll my eyes at those who insist that she and Prince were still seeing each other, or that hexstill wanted to be with her and she him. If anything, it seems she had nothing but regret about choosing to be with him, and a bit of spite for the way he treats her - which is understandable. [Edited 9/20/18 14:41pm]

Okay, just watched the rest of the 3rd segment with the self proclaimed "healer" dude, who was not an ordained minister and had no education in religion. His account of how he started "delivering" people was actually quite creepy. To me, it reeks of those cult leaders who prey on vulnerable people. Wondering how much money he got from them through the years.

ya, plenty of those out there though. I don't think you need much of anything in that racket. not that that matters, some of the biggest bs'rs i've run into in my life had advanced degrees. education is a filter but somehow the jackasses always get through.

PeteSilas said:

violetcrush said:

violetcrush said: Okay, just watched the rest of the 3rd segment with the self proclaimed "healer" dude, who was not an ordained minister and had no education in religion. His account of how he started "delivering" people was actually quite creepy. To me, it reeks of those cult leaders who prey on vulnerable people. Wondering how much money he got from them through the years.

ya, plenty of those out there though. I don't think you need much of anything in that racket. not that that matters, some of the biggest bs'rs i've run into in my life had advanced degrees. education is a filter but somehow the jackasses always get through.

Who knows, he may have truly believed in what he was doing. Although I searched on his name, and on the MyLife.com page it listed his annual income as between $100-150K. If that is accurate it certainly is not a typical "minister's" salary. Who knows....the "good/bad" meter on the site showed him in the "good" range, but there's an alert at the top of the page about lawsuits/liens/bankruptcies found. Not sure how reliable or accurate that site is.