NorthC said:

databank said:

My students are about 20. Exposure to Western pop culture is quite recent in China. Only about 30 Western films are allowed in theaters every year, but of course the internet changed a lot of things. It's hard to evaluate: like I once told my students they (urban upper-middle class, English speaking, educated) may have more cultural references in common with a Western kid than with a kid from a remote Chinese village, but I'm not sure to which extent this is true.

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This being said I knew a French girl who was 20 ten years ago and she had never heard of Prince. She was born in 1987 so by the time she got into music, Prince was quite out of the picture (and she wasn't into R&B at all anyway).

I dunno... My guess is that traditional Chinese culture is still part of them. Maybe even more than they realize. I mean, that civilization is something like 5000 years old. Even with communism and capitalism taking over in recent years, that's still only 100 years in a civilization that goes back so far. The only other civilization that I can think of that goes back that far is India. Ancient Egypt was taken over by christianity and islam and doesn't exist anymore. Ancient America was taken over by christianity. So your students have 5000 years of traditionalism and Taoism and Confusianism behind them (once again: even if they don't always realize it themselves.) That's one hell of a cultural heritage and I'm not sure if Lady Gaga is enough to break through that. [Edited 8/28/18 10:33am]

It's not the same. Confucius ain't gonna write 'em any more pop songs than Socrates or Homer are going to give us. They have their own pop stars, their own movie stars, people we wouldn't know of but that are as popular there as Gaga here. Their pop music is very similar to K-pop if you wanna have an idea what it sounds like. Same with India where filmi/Bollywood music is what most people listen to. To some extent it's true in each Western countries: France has a rich pop culture of music and movies (including lots of disgusting crap, but people are into it anyway). Our local Western cultures have learned to co-exist with an American-led global culture right after WWII, and those countries are now doing the same, but they started much later and it's a bit more complicated because of political agendas and the fact that their culture is fundamentally different, while all Western countries share the same fundations.

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One huge difference though, in most Asian countries, is the lack of a significant counterculture or alternative scene. Indie movies or indie pop, as well as any alternative arts scene, have a hell of a struggle finding an audience, when they exist at all. There are things, but they remain extremely confidential and anything that's popular is sterile, family-friendly and politically correct. The lack of a counter-culture is actually, in my opinion, one of Asia's biggest contemporary problem, because I believe countercultures are essential in any modern society (and we saw the impact ours had here). India has a remarkable literary scene, though, but its audience isn't that wide in proportion to the general population.

Switzerland

Shannyn, Way over in Switzerland ... (that is Distance from USA or Minneapolis, Minneosota / Dallas, Texas to Switzerland)

[Edited 8/28/18 11:20am]

Astasheiks said:

Shannyn, Way over in Switzerland ... (that is Distance from USA or Minneapolis, Minneosota / Dallas, Texas to Switzerland)

[Edited 8/28/18 11:20am]

Re counterculture: that sounds very strange to me as there used to be some counterculture in Czechoslovakia back in the day. Plastic People of the Universe was an underground band and there were other artists that weren't approved by the regime, but they still had local audience. There were apparently punks, too. I have heard about Falung Gong, which, to me, sounds like a counterculture, too, so I suppose there have to be people fighting against the regime in an organised and peaceful way.

Astasheiks said:

How many of you are Prince Hardcore Fans/Fams Outside the USA?

from Ukraine

Montenegro

NorthC said:

Thanks for your reply, data (no need to quote all of it) and that's basically the point I was making: Asian kids may hear the music of Lady Gaga, but they're not part of the counter-culture that we in the west have developped since the 50s/60s. Asia simply has a different history. No, Confucius and Socrates aren't going to write any pop songs for us, but they are part of Chinese and European culture. So your post had me wondering (and this is a very interesting question): how much of who we are is our own personality and how much is culture and tradition and just simple biology? I don't know much about Confusianism, but I think it's more about being part of a group than it is about being an individual. Dammit, it's hard to express philosophical ideas in a foreign language! My point is that western culture, especially in recent years is all about individuality. Think about one of Prince's last songs: "Free Urself and be the best that U can be" You know better than me, but I think in Asia they think more about the community than the individual.

Individual vs. collective: you're raising a fascinating question.

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I actually have given it some thought after all those years, and so far this is where I stand on the matter (but my quest for understanding is never ending and new knowledge/experiences may change my perspective):

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The concept of individuality is one that's been progressively emerging in Western cultures, going back to Antiquity, that much I know, and that's finally become somewhat dominant in the last century or so. To some extent the same can be said in Asian cultures but I'm not certain to which extent the process is ancient. What is certain is that when it comes to the last century time went slower than in the West (this is true for most "developing" countries). But it happens, sometimes very quickly. For example, a friend who knows South Korea very well told me there were huge frictions between generations there because of the quick development that's been going on since the 90's: according to him the gap between our generation and their parents is comparable to the gap between ours and our grandparents' generation. This can be said to some extent about urban Chinese, Indian or Cambodian people too (those are the 3 countries I've lived in, and therefore knows somewhat better than the rest, but the differences between urban middle/upper classes and urban and rural lower classes are considerable there: for example you have Indians living with all modern luxuries and higher education while other still live in huts without electricity in remote villages, a phenomenon we don't have in the West).

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This being said, conservative elements and political leaders in those countries will constantly repeat that individualism and all that goes with it (critical thinking, sexual freedom, rejection of traditional values, abandonment of religion, etc.) is the result of Western influence, and therefore a threat to their own local, millenias-old culture. I think that this is an outrageous fallacy and I say so to my students. For the most part, even if individualism was probably greater in traditional Western thinking than in those countries', the life and mentality of Westerners before WWI, if not until the baby boomers, was essentially collectivist. Submission to political leaders was the norm; submission to religious rules was the norm; submission to one's local community's social conventions was the norm; submission to the family unit (and its male, patriarcal leader) was the norm. My Chinese students tend to believe that young French people were already in an orgy of sex, drugs and rock and roll in the 17th century and are often surprised when I explain to them that a century ago, the average French person wasn't so different from the average Chinese person in the sense that they were mostly devoted to satisfying those collective entities: nation, religious group, local community/social class, family. If you look at the larger picture the change was quite progressive from the Renaissance onwards: printing, democracy, individual human rights, widespread education... all that stuff became true and came to a considerable acceleration after the Industrial Revolution, but regardless the life of the average French in 1900 wasn't so drastically different from the life of the average French in the time of Jesus, while the life of a contemporary French has nothing to do with what it was a century ago. Most change happened in 20th century and the main cause for that, I am convinced of it and evidence supports it, was technology: I won't go into details here but technology changed our lifestyles and our understanding of ourselves and the universe in every conceivable aspect, from medical science to means of transportations to mass medias and so on.

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Thus came the implementation of individualism as a (relative but dominant) norm: in the context of wealthy, highly industrialized, well educated, post-industrial nations. My firm belief is that individualism (as well as social progress) is the inavoidable consequence of technological progress, and that there is a strong difference between the concepts of progress and the concept of Westernization, even though they often go hand in hand because progress happened to happen first in Western countries. Japan remains a very distinct culture, but a very modern one as well, and individualism happened there as well as here albeit more slowly (because the process had started much later: Japan was still a medieval nation in 1900).

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Today, it could be argued that Indian authorities are consciously trying to slow down the countries' development in order to maintain traditional values: many Indians I know believe that and when you've lived there you realize that it probably, sadly is true. China is a different matter altogether, and an fascinating social experiment: the authorities do their best to promote traditional, collectivist values, and succeed for the most part thanks to mass propaganda but regardless, while they remain extremely patriotic young people today are already less devoted to their family and community than their parents. My students are very much aware of that and torn apart between the feeling that their duty is to the collective, and an awareness of the fact that they are much more self-centered than any generation before them, and that they like that very much.

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So this is where I stand: I believe that every human society and civilization, at its roots, was collectivist, including ours. And I believe that the rise of individualism is for the most part unavoidable in the context of development. It's only a matter of how much governments oppose it and, consequently, how slow or fast it happens. I'm not sure about that but I'd be tempted to think that the more those countries will willingly embrace progress and individualism in the context of their own identity, the more they'll be able to preserve their own culture, and the more they associate progress to Westernization for the sake of fighting or slowing down individualism, the more they will see young people reject their own culture in favor of ours.

[Edited 8/28/18 13:20pm]

FullLipsDotNose said:

Plastic People of the Universe

They are very good friends of us

luv4u said:

Ireland

Funkyalien said:

I am from india. Long time member here.

Cool! Many Prince fans in India, in your experience?

NorthC said:

Thanks for your reply, data (no need to quote all of it) and that's basically the point I was making: Asian kids may hear the music of Lady Gaga, but they're not part of the counter-culture that we in the west have developped since the 50s/60s. Asia simply has a different history. No, Confucius and Socrates aren't going to write any pop songs for us, but they are part of Chinese and European culture. So your post had me wondering (and this is a very interesting question): how much of who we are is our own personality and how much is culture and tradition and just simple biology? I don't know much about Confusianism, but I think it's more about being part of a group than it is about being an individual. Dammit, it's hard to express philosophical ideas in a foreign language! My point is that western culture, especially in recent years is all about individuality. Think about one of Prince's last songs: "Free Urself and be the best that U can be" You know better than me, but I think in Asia they think more about the community than the individual.

*

I will only add that even in ancient cultures, like China, philosophies, such as Taoism, were an alternative apporach to living. Whereas Confusianism teches the importance of collectivism, Taoism teches the importance of the individual search to master one's own self while learning to navigate and live peacefully with the collective. As such, it would seem that the notion or debate between the collective and the indiviudal has existed as long as humanity has conceptualized the notion/idea of existence. And, with that, as an American, I now back slowly from this tread so as not to ruin it with my greed and gluttony.

Sweden/Sverige!

purplethunder3121 said:

luv4u said:

Originally from UK, then 9 years in Germany and now nearly 10 in Australia

Australia.

milesb said:

Funkyalien said:

I am from india. Long time member here.

Cool! Many Prince fans in India, in your experience?

Well, here is another one here, from INDIA!

Funkyalien said:

I am from india. Long time member here.

Ditto, from India.

Chandigarh

armybrat said:

Funkyalien said:

I am from india. Long time member here.

Ditto, from India.

Chandigarh

Glad to see you're still among us

Funkyalien said:

I am from india. Long time member here.

Which place you from in India?

Livingstone, Zambia.

EUrope / Brussels here.