And yet he pushed everybody away.

PennyPurple said:

"His dependence on painkillers [...] seemed to come out of a deep, pervasive loneliness, which obsessed him."

206Michelle said:

His dependence on painkillers....seemed to come out of a deep, pervasive loneliness,

i'm not sure about that. what i am pretty sure about is where the writer pulled this article out of.

also a deep, dark place

Lots of leaps and misinformation.

• Prince was not found 13 hours after his death. They left Paisley at 11. The rigor mortis in his arm suggested about 6 hours. So he probably died in the early hours of April 21st..Thus the reason his date of death was not determined to be the 20th.
• Prince may have felt lonely but I don't know if drugs were being used by him to kill the emotional pain of loneliness. The drugs could have been the result of physical pain, social awkwardness, stress, exhaustion, personal loss, and/or any combination of those factors. Loneliness may have been the result of him being too ashamed to ask for help or admit to folks more directly that he was struggling. So, he had to be alone to keep his secret.
• Music, I suspect, was his cure and his cause for his loneliness. But its important to realize that being alone and being lonely are not always the same thing. At times, he probably embraced his solitude. At other times, that solitude may have turned into loneliness. I know what that is like. Sometimes i can't wait to be alone (hectic job and lots of people around can be trying) but a day or two into my alone time, I can't wait to see people again in some way even if it is just in work environment, or coming online or emails. Prince showed signs of both embracing his solitude and reaching out when he was lonely (late night phone calls, emails, romantic/sexual flings, mentoring others, late night aftershows, even tweets). It is also important to consider that if one feels out of place or doesn't know who to trust, one can feel just as lonely in a crowd.

This guy is not seeing what the whole picture suggests. Prince wasn't Howard Hughes in some completely isolated state. But when Prince wanted to be alone, boy, did he want to be alone.

[Edited 8/18/18 20:54pm]

IstenSzek said:

His dependence on painkillers....seemed to come out of a deep, pervasive loneliness,

i'm not sure about that. what i am pretty sure about is where the writer pulled this article out of.

also a deep, dark place

CatB said:

"His dependence on painkillers [...] seemed to come out of a deep, pervasive loneliness, which obsessed him."

bullshit, i will quote josh welton who said when others claimed P was lonely "it was not YOUR lonely" meaning it looked lonely but to Prince it wasn't.

I agree that the writer made way too many assumptions and connections about Prince, especially that there doesn't seem to be any indicaiton there that she studied him in particular. That said, I probably have a minority point of view here in that I imagine he indeed was quite lonely at times, perhaps more so towards the end of his life. I know people often say that Prince was different and that he didn't really need much connection, but so many of his songs reference directly or indirectly a need for connection. Even people with high functioning Autism (which I am not implying that Prince had)with all it's inherent social indifference often have a deep sense of loneliness starting in adolescence. We are built for connection, and when that doesn't happen it is only human to be impacted by that. For all of his unconventionality and at times seemingly asocial stance, his scores of love songs often portrayed someone who was actully a romantic at heart. Indeed, perhaps he was so muchso that no one including himeself could fulfill such a idealized version of love. I think it was at one of the Atlanta P & M shows that he played several love songs in a row and he commented in a sad voice something to the fact that he sure was playing a lot of sad songs. I am not suggesting that Prince spent most of his time moping around due to loneliness. He was way too active in his music to do that. I am suggesting that his tendency to push others away is not because he didn't need people but instead a lack of interpersonal intimacy skills to know how to stay close with others. Whatever the nature and length of his addiction likely intensified the disconnect. Keeping a profound secret about yourself is certainly very isolating at the very least. The voice of Wally, There is Lonely,Condition of the Heart, and Way Back Home and so many other songs is one that longs for connection. I

[Edited 8/19/18 5:48am]

I agree with much of what you said and I also think he longed for intimacy; unfortunately, he was too fearful to do intimacy in any way but his own terms. I do think he cherished solitude at times and found it hard at times to relate (especially as he got older, sicker and more paranoid) but I also think it wasn't long before he looked for ways to reach out through musical mentorship, late night phone calls, writing songs as a means of communicating with others (see Strange Way of Saying I love you), emailing, twitter, performing, flirting etc. Despite Prince's issues with the internet, his disposition was so suited for it. The song "My Computer" from Emancipation probably described him more than we knew.

It was Sunday night
Instead of doing what I usually do...

[Chorus]
I scan my computer looking for a site
Somebody to talk to, funny and bright
I scan my computer looking for a site
Make believe it's a better world, a better life

[Verse 1]
Nothing on TV I ain't seen before
Another murder on the news, I can't take no more
Evil Incorporated, blowing up bombs and things
I have a child, huh, I have a lot to explain
I could write a letter but who would I send it to?

[Pre-Chorus]
It was Sunday night
Instead of doing what I usually do...

[Chorus]
I scan my computer looking for a site
Somebody to talk to, funny and bright
I scan my computer looking for a site
Make believe it's a better world, a better life

[Verse 2]
I called an old friend of mine just the other day
No congratulations, no respect paid
All she did was wonder if the rumors were true
I said - "No, I ain't dead yet, but uh.. what about you?"
I can count my friends with a peace sign: 1, 2

[Pre-Chorus]
It was Sunday night
Instead of doing what I usually do...

[Chorus]
I scan my computer looking for a site
Somebody to talk to, funny and bright
I scan my computer looking for a site
Make believe it's a better world, a better life
[Bridge]
I got no mail, my computer
I told them I don't want to see a doctor unless he's lonely too

[Pre-Chorus]
It was Sunday night
Instead of doing what I usually do...

[Chorus]
I scan my computer looking for a site

gandorb said:

I agree that the writer made way too many assumptions and connections about Prince, especially that there doesn't seem to be any indicaiton there that she studied him in particular. That said, I probably have a minority point of view here in that I imagine he indeed was quite lonely at times, perhaps more so towards the end of his life. I know people often say that Prince was different and that he didn't really need much connection, but so many of his songs reference directly or indirectly a need for connection. Even people with high functioning Autism (which I am not implying that Prince had)with all it's inherent social indifference often have a deep sense of loneliness starting in adolescence. We are built for connection, and when that doesn't happen it is only human to be impacted by that. For all of his unconventionality and at times seemingly asocial stance, his scores of love songs often portrayed someone who was actully a romantic at heart. Indeed, perhaps he was so muchso that no one including himeself could fulfill such a idealized version of love. I think it was at one of the Atlanta P & M shows that he played several love songs in a row and he commented in a sad voice something to the fact that he sure was playing a lot of sad songs. I am not suggesting that Prince spent most of his time moping around due to loneliness. He was way too active in his music to do that. I am suggesting that his tendency to push others away is not because he didn't need people but instead a lack of interpersonal intimacy skills to know how to stay close with others. Whatever the nature and length of his addiction likely intensified the disconnect. Keeping a profound secret about yourself is certainly very isolating at the very least. The voice of Wally, There is Lonely,Condition of the Heart, and Way Back Home and so many other songs is one that longs for connection. I

[Edited 8/19/18 5:48am]

That was Scottie Baldwin. I don't doubt that at times (maybe many times) Prince was perfectly fine with being alone but that doesn't mean he was never lonely. Baldwin is no more of an expert on Prince than Alan Leeds was (which is who Scottie was disputing). Ironically, Josh Welton was one of the folks who Judith Hill described as being like family to Prince. Baldwin was the one who bailed on Prince during the P and M tour because Prince was acting erratically (probably due to drug usage). He wasnt an enabler, but I imagine it would be hard for him to admit that he left a lonely drug addicted man due to professional/personal disagreements a month before he died and didn't seem to reach out for help. Its easier to justify Prince's alone time (and people just leaving him alone) by saying that was just his disposition. Leeds called the folks around him enablers at the end of his life. Scottie probably resented that.

PeteSilas said:

bullshit, i will quote josh welton who said when others claimed P was lonely "it was not YOUR lonely" meaning it looked lonely but to Prince it wasn't.

[Edited 8/19/18 12:47pm]

[Edited 8/19/18 12:48pm]

SkipperLove said:

That was Scottie Baldwin. I don't doubt that at times (maybe many times) Prince was perfectly fine with being alone but that doesn't mean he was never lonely. Baldwin is no more of an expert on Prince than Alan Leeds was (which is who Scottie was disputing). Ironically, Josh Welton was one of the folks who Judith Hill described as being like family to Prince. Baldwin was the one who bailed on Prince during the P and M tour because Prince was acting erratically (probably due to drug usage). He wasnt an enabler, but I imagine it would be hard for him to admit that he left a lonely drug addicted man due to professional/personal disagreements a month before he died and didn't seem to reach out for help. Its easier to justify Prince's alone time (and people just leaving him alone) by saying that was just his disposition. Leeds called the folks around him enablers at the end of his life. Scottie probably resented that.

PeteSilas said:

bullshit, i will quote josh welton who said when others claimed P was lonely "it was not YOUR lonely" meaning it looked lonely but to Prince it wasn't.

[Edited 8/19/18 12:47pm]

[Edited 8/19/18 12:48pm]

you're right, got the name wrong. but he "bailed" on Prince, possibly not knowing about the drug use, he was an employee, admitted he wasn't close to him and didn't even know if he could say he was a friend. I don't know everything about their relationship but I do know that people often foolishly push good people away from them, fucking themselves in the process, been throught that a million times. I don't think putting up with disrespect and abuse should be tolerated merely to "help" someone who don't even want help. Not talking Prince here, talking old friendships i've had. I don't really know enough about Prince/Baldwin's relationship to say.

A lot of Prince's lonliness was self-inflicted. He pushed everyone away. I think he was a bit paranoid and time and drugs didn't help.

He worked for him a long time. I think he knew that drugs were the issue. Scottie said they weren't friends but he also called Prince a "gentleman" and essentially a good man (due to his committment to music and his fans) in the same interview in which he stated that they weren't close so I am not going to assume that Prince was just a shit to him the whole time (remember Prince also gave him a shout-out during the P and M's first performances) If they weren't close, how the hell would he know what Prince's brand of loneliness is. He, therefore, had no reason to dispute Alan Leeds interpretation other than a bit of guilt on his own part. Also, Baldwin stated that he was there "until the bitter end" in another interview--which really isn't true...working for him a long time off and on doesn't equate to staying until the bitter end. Baldwin is all over the place in his depiction of Prince probably because he doesn't understand him and may not have related to him beyond the professional and visa versa. ANd he was the one answering questions (I believe) when Susannah called inquiring about Prince's health (she said it was Prince's engineer) and he said Prince seemed to be getting better.

PeteSilas said:

SkipperLove said:

That was Scottie Baldwin. I don't doubt that at times (maybe many times) Prince was perfectly fine with being alone but that doesn't mean he was never lonely. Baldwin is no more of an expert on Prince than Alan Leeds was (which is who Scottie was disputing). Ironically, Josh Welton was one of the folks who Judith Hill described as being like family to Prince. Baldwin was the one who bailed on Prince during the P and M tour because Prince was acting erratically (probably due to drug usage). He wasnt an enabler, but I imagine it would be hard for him to admit that he left a lonely drug addicted man due to professional/personal disagreements a month before he died and didn't seem to reach out for help. Its easier to justify Prince's alone time (and people just leaving him alone) by saying that was just his disposition. Leeds called the folks around him enablers at the end of his life. Scottie probably resented that.

[Edited 8/19/18 12:47pm]

[Edited 8/19/18 12:48pm]

you're right, got the name wrong. but he "bailed" on Prince, possibly not knowing about the drug use, he was an employee, admitted he wasn't close to him and didn't even know if he could say he was a friend. I don't know everything about their relationship but I do know that people often foolishly push good people away from them, fucking themselves in the process, been throught that a million times. I don't think putting up with disrespect and abuse should be tolerated merely to "help" someone who don't even want help. Not talking Prince here, talking old friendships i've had. I don't really know enough about Prince/Baldwin's relationship to say.

Wlcm2thdwn3 said:

A lot of Prince's lonliness was self-inflicted. He pushed everyone away.

Which pretty often left the other(s) in his life lonely. That's the irony people often don't see when they portray Prince as the lonely one. He was "lonely" by choice.

This article reminds me of the stories that were going around in the 90s suggesting that after he had turned 30 he wasn't "hip" enough over here in Europe anymore. Back in the 80s he had to "wall up" the doorway to his Paris apartment because of the many fans hanging around there but as soon as he turned 30 suddenly nobody was coming out anymore because he was "old now" and he went to "stay at hotels so he wouldn't be lonely".

I don't know who always comes up with such stories and to what purpose. The same they did with MJ who even used it for his image later on. It's like the bigger the star, the more lonely and isolated they must be.

Prince wasn't lonely, he just often chose people for company who couldn't relate to him much. Like the pretty young things who were able to party with him but unable to keep up with him on the intellectual level. And that can make you lonely, even in a room full of people. But again, his company was his own choice, just as icing people out was.

As for the article - who on earth uses painkillers to cure loneliness?

gandorb said:

I agree that the writer made way too many assumptions and connections about Prince, especially that there doesn't seem to be any indicaiton there that she studied him in particular. That said, I probably have a minority point of view here in that I imagine he indeed was quite lonely at times, perhaps more so towards the end of his life. I know people often say that Prince was different and that he didn't really need much connection, but so many of his songs reference directly or indirectly a need for connection. Even people with high functioning Autism (which I am not implying that Prince had)with all it's inherent social indifference often have a deep sense of loneliness starting in adolescence. We are built for connection, and when that doesn't happen it is only human to be impacted by that. For all of his unconventionality and at times seemingly asocial stance, his scores of love songs often portrayed someone who was actully a romantic at heart. Indeed, perhaps he was so muchso that no one including himeself could fulfill such a idealized version of love. I think it was at one of the Atlanta P & M shows that he played several love songs in a row and he commented in a sad voice something to the fact that he sure was playing a lot of sad songs. I am not suggesting that Prince spent most of his time moping around due to loneliness. He was way too active in his music to do that. I am suggesting that his tendency to push others away is not because he didn't need people but instead a lack of interpersonal intimacy skills to know how to stay close with others. Whatever the nature and length of his addiction likely intensified the disconnect. Keeping a profound secret about yourself is certainly very isolating at the very least. The voice of Wally, There is Lonely,Condition of the Heart, and Way Back Home and so many other songs is one that longs for connection. I

[Edited 8/19/18 5:48am]

How eloquently stated...you seem to have a keen understanding of Prince.

Probably insecure. Prince was different things to different people. From your experience, he wanted pretty young things he could party with (and some of his later personal encounters seem to suggest that as well. Although I don't automatically assume that pretty and young equates to stupid). But other people's accounts (Steve Parke, Ruth Argate, Eryka Badu, Afshin Shahidi, Morris Hayes) were different. They described intellectual and spiritual discussion with him even if his views were quite different. Is it possible that the journalists were right when they said that Prince only revealed about 15% of himself to any one person, and it was probably a different 15%?? Maybe this is why Morris Hayes described Prince as havign 5 different personalities. He was around long enough to see 15X5.

CatB said:

Wlcm2thdwn3 said:

A lot of Prince's lonliness was self-inflicted. He pushed everyone away.

Which pretty often left the other(s) in his life lonely. That's the irony people often don't see when they portray Prince as the lonely one. He was "lonely" by choice.

This article reminds me of the stories that were going around in the 90s suggesting that after he had turned 30 he wasn't "hip" enough over here in Europe anymore. Back in the 80s he had to "wall up" the doorway to his Paris apartment because of the many fans hanging around there but as soon as he turned 30 suddenly nobody was coming out anymore because he was "old now" and he went to "stay at hotels so he wouldn't be lonely".

I don't know who always comes up with such stories and to what purpose. The same they did with MJ who even used it for his image later on. It's like the bigger the star, the more lonely and isolated they must be.

Prince wasn't lonely, he just often chose people for company who couldn't relate to him much. Like the pretty young things who were able to party with him but unable to keep up with him on the intellectual level. And that can make you lonely, even in a room full of people. But again, his company was his own choice, just as icing people out was.

As for the article - who on earth uses painkillers to cure loneliness?

[Edited 8/19/18 13:39pm]

CatB said:

Wlcm2thdwn3 said:

A lot of Prince's lonliness was self-inflicted. He pushed everyone away.

Which pretty often left the other(s) in his life lonely. That's the irony people often don't see when they portray Prince as the lonely one. He was "lonely" by choice.

This article reminds me of the stories that were going around in the 90s suggesting that after he had turned 30 he wasn't "hip" enough over here in Europe anymore. Back in the 80s he had to "wall up" the doorway to his Paris apartment because of the many fans hanging around there but as soon as he turned 30 suddenly nobody was coming out anymore because he was "old now" and he went to "stay at hotels so he wouldn't be lonely".

I don't know who always comes up with such stories and to what purpose. The same they did with MJ who even used it for his image later on. It's like the bigger the star, the more lonely and isolated they must be.

Prince wasn't lonely, he just often chose people for company who couldn't relate to him much. Like the pretty young things who were able to party with him but unable to keep up with him on the intellectual level. And that can make you lonely, even in a room full of people. But again, his company was his own choice, just as icing people out was.

As for the article - who on earth uses painkillers to cure loneliness?

I was thinking the same...he did not seem have too many peers in his everyday life. It must have been difficult to feel connected to and truly understood by the very young folks/hired staff he surrounded himself with. Of course, this was his choice.

I do, however, think painkillers, alcohol etc. can help soothe loneliness. (temporarily)

gandorb said:

Just love how people come to these conclusions without really knowing the person and what really happened. Says more about the writer of the article than it does about Prince...

rogifan said:

http://prince.org/msg/7/455747

This article has to do with depression. It has nothing to do with the Prince investigation. 2 different things.

gandorb said:

SkipperLove said:

IstenSzek said:

lastdecember said:

None of knew Prince and never will that is it case closed. People can come out now and say whatever, and everyone will chime in with their experience but no one knew the man like that, so these articles are speculations as they all have been since his death.

You said it all...

No. From my experience he had pretty young things around him who were there for party and fame but who weren't able to give him anything. And they were just one example for company that left him feel lonely.

Of course there were also other people around, and I too had deep conversations with him. I said he was lonely by choice.

As for Morris Hayes, just in the recent ARTE documentary he said he didn't understand what Prince was talking about (dimensions etc). Prince was an enigma to many people, even those closest to him often didn't get him. Many of his musicians said they never knew what he was talking about most of the time and that they were only there doing their job. It depended on the respective other how many personalities Prince had.

SkipperLove said:

Probably insecure. Prince was different things to different people. From your experience, he wanted pretty young things he could party with (and some of his later personal encounters seem to suggest that as well. Although I don't automatically assume that pretty and young equates to stupid). But other people's accounts (Steve Parke, Ruth Argate, Eryka Badu, Afshin Shahidi, Morris Hayes) were different. They described intellectual and spiritual discussion with him even if his views were quite different. Is it possible that the journalists were right when they said that Prince only revealed about 15% of himself to any one person, and it was probably a different 15%?? Maybe this is why Morris Hayes described Prince as havign 5 different personalities. He was around long enough to see 15X5.

CatB said:

Which pretty often left the other(s) in his life lonely. That's the irony people often don't see when they portray Prince as the lonely one. He was "lonely" by choice.

This article reminds me of the stories that were going around in the 90s suggesting that after he had turned 30 he wasn't "hip" enough over here in Europe anymore. Back in the 80s he had to "wall up" the doorway to his Paris apartment because of the many fans hanging around there but as soon as he turned 30 suddenly nobody was coming out anymore because he was "old now" and he went to "stay at hotels so he wouldn't be lonely".

I don't know who always comes up with such stories and to what purpose. The same they did with MJ who even used it for his image later on. It's like the bigger the star, the more lonely and isolated they must be.

Prince wasn't lonely, he just often chose people for company who couldn't relate to him much. Like the pretty young things who were able to party with him but unable to keep up with him on the intellectual level. And that can make you lonely, even in a room full of people. But again, his company was his own choice, just as icing people out was.

As for the article - who on earth uses painkillers to cure loneliness?

[Edited 8/19/18 13:39pm]