databank said:

violetcrush said:

So, Crystal Ball - you are saying was sequenced based on sound and/or song style, but not to create a "storyline" per se, as the timeline for the recordings is all over the place.

When you start studying Prince's recording process you realize that many an album features tracks from many many years earlier, even if the bulk of the recording was relatively recent.

.

I don't think any Prince albums really create a "storyline" except maybe Lovesexy, and TRC, and yet we are far from a proper narrative even with those. At best, Prince albums are thematically cohesive, which is satisfying, but this has more to do with lyrics and the overall "vibe" than with when the songs were recorded.

.

My point regarding CB is that it's been conceived as a party album or mixtape of sort: the songs are sequenced in order to flow into each other and maintain a non-stop pace: it's in fact a pretty exhausting record (in the best sense of the term), designed in such a way that the listener is washed off after 2 hours and a half of an intense funk marathon.

.

After a few listens, the fact that certain songs have the sound palette of the 80's and others the sound palette of the 90's becomes totally irrelevant: they work perfectly as a sequence, with one track leading into the next very naturally.

.

The problem, if you ask me, is that more than any other Prince records, CB suffered from prejudice and fans' expectations: because it wasn't what the fans had expected, or wanted; because it was 2/3 90's and 1/3 80's; because too many songs on it had already been made available in one form or another; and because they couldn't take their mind off its apparent (mostly apparent, in fact) chaotic nature... The consequence was that many fans wouldn't accept to see the structure behind it, or to simply let themselves enjoy the music for what it was. They just wouldn't let go.

.

Personally when I bought it back then, opened it and saw the tracklist in the booklet, my first reaction was to be extremely disappointed because, I, too, expected a more organized retrospective that would feature more 80's material, as well as songs that were all entirely unreleased. Then I played it once. Then I played it twice. Then I realized I was blown away, and I never cared for any of this anymore: I just enjoyed it for what it was, and I kept enjoying it more with each new listen. 20 years have gone and I've played it to death ever since and yet, evrey time I listen to it again, I trip how how wonderfully that MF flows

.

Now that's just me, people are free to dislike it. But they should realize that Prince didn't just roll a dice when it came to decide which tracks would be in it and how they'd be sequenced: he clearly worked hard on making it a cohesive statement just as much as he did for any other, more era-focused, album

Yes, I like most of the songs on CB, but I do have to say that I am more drawn to the 80's tracks vs. the 90's tracks on that album - with the exception of Goodbye and Ripopgodazippa. Also, I was disappointed with the editing/changing of the original Crystal Ball track. I think he added too many "bells and whistles", noises, etc. I actually prefer the original recording. He removed a chunk of Susannah's vocal too - I guess in order to make room for the extra noises.

violetcrush said:

databank said:

When you start studying Prince's recording process you realize that many an album features tracks from many many years earlier, even if the bulk of the recording was relatively recent.

.

I don't think any Prince albums really create a "storyline" except maybe Lovesexy, and TRC, and yet we are far from a proper narrative even with those. At best, Prince albums are thematically cohesive, which is satisfying, but this has more to do with lyrics and the overall "vibe" than with when the songs were recorded.

.

My point regarding CB is that it's been conceived as a party album or mixtape of sort: the songs are sequenced in order to flow into each other and maintain a non-stop pace: it's in fact a pretty exhausting record (in the best sense of the term), designed in such a way that the listener is washed off after 2 hours and a half of an intense funk marathon.

.

After a few listens, the fact that certain songs have the sound palette of the 80's and others the sound palette of the 90's becomes totally irrelevant: they work perfectly as a sequence, with one track leading into the next very naturally.

.

The problem, if you ask me, is that more than any other Prince records, CB suffered from prejudice and fans' expectations: because it wasn't what the fans had expected, or wanted; because it was 2/3 90's and 1/3 80's; because too many songs on it had already been made available in one form or another; and because they couldn't take their mind off its apparent (mostly apparent, in fact) chaotic nature... The consequence was that many fans wouldn't accept to see the structure behind it, or to simply let themselves enjoy the music for what it was. They just wouldn't let go.

.

Personally when I bought it back then, opened it and saw the tracklist in the booklet, my first reaction was to be extremely disappointed because, I, too, expected a more organized retrospective that would feature more 80's material, as well as songs that were all entirely unreleased. Then I played it once. Then I played it twice. Then I realized I was blown away, and I never cared for any of this anymore: I just enjoyed it for what it was, and I kept enjoying it more with each new listen. 20 years have gone and I've played it to death ever since and yet, evrey time I listen to it again, I trip how how wonderfully that MF flows

.

Now that's just me, people are free to dislike it. But they should realize that Prince didn't just roll a dice when it came to decide which tracks would be in it and how they'd be sequenced: he clearly worked hard on making it a cohesive statement just as much as he did for any other, more era-focused, album

Yes, I like most of the songs on CB, but I do have to say that I am more drawn to the 80's tracks vs. the 90's tracks on that album - with the exception of Goodbye and Ripopgodazippa. Also, I was disappointed with the editing/changing of the original Crystal Ball track. I think he added too many "bells and whistles", noises, etc. I actually prefer the original recording. He removed a chunk of Susannah's vocal too - I guess in order to make room for the extra noises.

It's of course a matter of taste. I'm grateful that, unlike many, I enjoyed Prince's work in the 90's just as much as his earlier work so to me that wasn't much of a problem.

.

Of note is the fact that what you refer to as "the original" Crystal Ball" is a version that apparently wasn't ever considered for release, though it may have found its way to Dream Factory had it not evolved into CB86/SOTT. Both versions that were included on 2 different DF configurations included those parts you mention but lacked the orchestra.

On the other hand, the version that was finally edited for the original CB configuration, i.e. the version intended for release in 1987, is strictly similar to the version that was released in 1998. That doesn't change, of course, the fact that you would rather have had an earlier version, but the changes are contemporary to the songs' recording and had Prince been allowed by WB to release CB in 87, this is the version we would have always known.

.

However many fans, myself included, were disappointed in the changes made to Crucial and Good Love, though, and while it's impossible to know whether those specific edits were made in 1986-87 or in 1998, it's pretty likely they were from 97. On the other hands we already had an official release of the long GL and when it comes to Crucial, we weren't supposed to have heard it in the first place so, as Thunderfunk recently said, it isn't really reasonable to blame Prince (or the estate) for the fact that we were buying illegal bootlegs. A friend at the time also told me "I'd rather have 5 minutes of this perfect sounding Crucial than 7 minutes of that crappy sounding bootleg". I guess he had a point

[Edited 6/24/18 12:33pm]

databank said:

violetcrush said:

Yes, I like most of the songs on CB, but I do have to say that I am more drawn to the 80's tracks vs. the 90's tracks on that album - with the exception of Goodbye and Ripopgodazippa. Also, I was disappointed with the editing/changing of the original Crystal Ball track. I think he added too many "bells and whistles", noises, etc. I actually prefer the original recording. He removed a chunk of Susannah's vocal too - I guess in order to make room for the extra noises.

It's of course a matter of taste. I'm grateful that, unlike many, I enjoyed Prince's work in the 90's just as much as his earlier work so to me that wasn't much of a problem.

.

Of note is the fact that what you refer to as "the original" Crystal Ball" is a version that apparently wasn't ever considered for release, though it may have found its way to Dream Factory had it not evolved into CB86/SOTT. Both versions that were included on 2 different DF configurations included those parts you mention but lacked the orchestra.

On the other hand, the version that was finally edited for the original CB configuration, i.e. the version intended for release in 1987, is strictly similar to the version that was released in 1998. That doesn't change, of course, the fact that you would rather have had an earlier version, but the changes are contemporary to the songs' recording and had Prince been allowed by WB to release CB in 87, this is the version we would have always known.

.

However many fans, myself included, were disappointed in the changes made to Crucial and Good Love, though, and while it's impossible to know whether those specific edits were made in 1986-87 or in 1998, it's pretty likely they were from 97. On the other hands we already had an official release of the long GL and when it comes to Crucial, we weren't supposed to have heard it in the first place so, as Thunderfunk recently said, it isn't really reasonable to blame Prince (or the estate) for the fact that we were buying illegal bootlegs. A friend at the time also told me "I'd rather have 5 minutes of this perfect sounding Crucial than 7 minutes of that crappy sounding bootleg". I guess he had a point

[Edited 6/24/18 12:33pm]

I like the Clare Fischer orchestra that he added on the '98 version - just do not like the opening noises and changes, and I prefer the extra vocal done by Susannah that he removed for the '98 version. You are right - he no doubt always planned on adding the CF arrangement to the basic track, but I wondered if he removed a chunk of Susannah's vocal to minimize her contribution.

violetcrush said:

databank said:

It's of course a matter of taste. I'm grateful that, unlike many, I enjoyed Prince's work in the 90's just as much as his earlier work so to me that wasn't much of a problem.

.

Of note is the fact that what you refer to as "the original" Crystal Ball" is a version that apparently wasn't ever considered for release, though it may have found its way to Dream Factory had it not evolved into CB86/SOTT. Both versions that were included on 2 different DF configurations included those parts you mention but lacked the orchestra.

On the other hand, the version that was finally edited for the original CB configuration, i.e. the version intended for release in 1987, is strictly similar to the version that was released in 1998. That doesn't change, of course, the fact that you would rather have had an earlier version, but the changes are contemporary to the songs' recording and had Prince been allowed by WB to release CB in 87, this is the version we would have always known.

.

However many fans, myself included, were disappointed in the changes made to Crucial and Good Love, though, and while it's impossible to know whether those specific edits were made in 1986-87 or in 1998, it's pretty likely they were from 97. On the other hands we already had an official release of the long GL and when it comes to Crucial, we weren't supposed to have heard it in the first place so, as Thunderfunk recently said, it isn't really reasonable to blame Prince (or the estate) for the fact that we were buying illegal bootlegs. A friend at the time also told me "I'd rather have 5 minutes of this perfect sounding Crucial than 7 minutes of that crappy sounding bootleg". I guess he had a point

[Edited 6/24/18 12:33pm]

I like the Clare Fischer orchestra that he added on the '98 version - just do not like the opening noises and changes, and I prefer the extra vocal done by Susannah that he removed for the '98 version. You are right - he no doubt always planned on adding the CF arrangement to the basic track, but I wondered if he removed a chunk of Susannah's vocal to minimize her contribution.

In fact the orchestra was added to the original, full length version in August 1986, only that was post-DF and pre-CB, so that particular version isn't known to have been intended for release at any given time.

.

As you suggest, it's often been speculated that he did those edits, as well as those on Strange Relationship, to minimize Wendy/Lisa/Susannah's contribution to CB/SOTT after he disbanded the band. However, I've always found this explaination quite doubtful. My take is simply that those songs evolved (like so many other songs that went through 5 different edits before being released) and that he liked the final cuts better. Prince acknowledged the Revolution on Beautiful Night and gave credit to the girls where credit was due for their other SOTT contributions, including Strange Relationship, so it's not like all of a sudden he wanted to pretend they never existed or contributed his post-Revolution record.

databank said:

violetcrush said:

I like the Clare Fischer orchestra that he added on the '98 version - just do not like the opening noises and changes, and I prefer the extra vocal done by Susannah that he removed for the '98 version. You are right - he no doubt always planned on adding the CF arrangement to the basic track, but I wondered if he removed a chunk of Susannah's vocal to minimize her contribution.

In fact the orchestra was added to the original, full length version in August 1986, only that was post-DF and pre-CB, so that particular version isn't known to have been intended for release at any given time.

.

As you suggest, it's often been speculated that he did those edits, as well as those on Strange Relationship, to minimize Wendy/Lisa/Susannah's contribution to CB/SOTT after he disbanded the band. However, I've always found this explaination quite doubtful. My take is simply that those songs evolved (like so many other songs that went through 5 different edits before being released) and that he liked the final cuts better. Prince acknowledged the Revolution on Beautiful Night and gave credit to the girls where credit was due for their other SOTT contributions, including Strange Relationship, so it's not like all of a sudden he wanted to pretend they never existed or contributed his post-Revolution record.

Actually, I think he may have removed her backround vocal and part of her spoken word due to the nature of the lyric - in the original she says "a gas is (something) gas, the woman dies in the aftermath". He was getting deeper into religion by this point, so it may be that he didn't prefer that lyric at that time. I just don't like the heavy sound effects he used to replace her softer backround vocals with his lyric of "now baby, lick me fast" and "now Momma watch your gas" "c'mon baby do me fast" (I think that's the lyric), and he removed her spoken word after the "its a mathematical gas" lyric - "Sisters and brothers of the purple underground find peace of mind with the pop sound. It seems when we're in danger everything gets black. "Don't you wannna ball? It just seemed like a blatant ommission to me, because these lines were important enough to include on the original track. This is the tough part about releasing a song he had written and recorded over 20 yrs prior. Ideas, thoughts, feelings and styles change quite a bit. I guess I am a die-hard traditionalist with this one, because I think the original recording defines a moment in time with him, but the revised version strays from that.

violetcrush said:

databank said:

In fact the orchestra was added to the original, full length version in August 1986, only that was post-DF and pre-CB, so that particular version isn't known to have been intended for release at any given time.

.

As you suggest, it's often been speculated that he did those edits, as well as those on Strange Relationship, to minimize Wendy/Lisa/Susannah's contribution to CB/SOTT after he disbanded the band. However, I've always found this explaination quite doubtful. My take is simply that those songs evolved (like so many other songs that went through 5 different edits before being released) and that he liked the final cuts better. Prince acknowledged the Revolution on Beautiful Night and gave credit to the girls where credit was due for their other SOTT contributions, including Strange Relationship, so it's not like all of a sudden he wanted to pretend they never existed or contributed his post-Revolution record.

Actually, I think he may have removed her backround vocal and part of her spoken word due to the nature of the lyric - in the original she says "a gas is (something) gas, the woman dies in the aftermath". He was getting deeper into religion by this point, so it may be that he didn't prefer that lyric at that time. I just don't like the heavy sound effects he used to replace her softer backround vocals with his lyric of "now baby, lick me fast" and "now Momma watch your gas" "c'mon baby do me fast" (I think that's the lyric), and he removed her spoken word after the "its a mathematical gas" lyric - "Sisters and brothers of the purple underground find peace of mind with the pop sound. It seems when we're in danger everything gets black. "Don't you wannna ball? It just seemed like a blatant ommission to me, because these lines were important enough to include on the original track. This is the tough part about releasing a song he had written and recorded over 20 yrs prior. Ideas, thoughts, feelings and styles change quite a bit. I guess I am a die-hard traditionalist with this one, because I think the original recording defines a moment in time with him, but the revised version strays from that.

I think you misunderstood my replies above: the version of Crystal Ball that appeared on the 1998 album was completed in the fall of 1986, when Prince was working on the original 1986 Crystal Ball album that eventually became SOTT. It is, note for note, the exact same version. Prince never touched it again between late 1986 and its final release in 1998.

databank said:

violetcrush said:

Actually, I think he may have removed her backround vocal and part of her spoken word due to the nature of the lyric - in the original she says "a gas is (something) gas, the woman dies in the aftermath". He was getting deeper into religion by this point, so it may be that he didn't prefer that lyric at that time. I just don't like the heavy sound effects he used to replace her softer backround vocals with his lyric of "now baby, lick me fast" and "now Momma watch your gas" "c'mon baby do me fast" (I think that's the lyric), and he removed her spoken word after the "its a mathematical gas" lyric - "Sisters and brothers of the purple underground find peace of mind with the pop sound. It seems when we're in danger everything gets black. "Don't you wannna ball? It just seemed like a blatant ommission to me, because these lines were important enough to include on the original track. This is the tough part about releasing a song he had written and recorded over 20 yrs prior. Ideas, thoughts, feelings and styles change quite a bit. I guess I am a die-hard traditionalist with this one, because I think the original recording defines a moment in time with him, but the revised version strays from that.

I think you misunderstood my replies above: the version of Crystal Ball that appeared on the 1998 album was completed in the fall of 1986, when Prince was working on the original 1986 Crystal Ball album that eventually became SOTT. It is, note for note, the exact same version. Prince never touched it again between late 1986 and its final release in 1998.

Ah, okay. I didn't realize he had removed her lyric/spoken words during the time that he added the CF arrangement. I still like the first recording, but the best would have been the original vocal/spoken word along with the CF arrangement.

violetcrush said:

databank said:

I think you misunderstood my replies above: the version of Crystal Ball that appeared on the 1998 album was completed in the fall of 1986, when Prince was working on the original 1986 Crystal Ball album that eventually became SOTT. It is, note for note, the exact same version. Prince never touched it again between late 1986 and its final release in 1998.

Ah, okay. I didn't realize he had removed her lyric/spoken words during the time that he added the CF arrangement. I still like the first recording, but the best would have been the original vocal/spoken word along with the CF arrangement.

I do think it is possible that he wanted to minimize her contribution based on the nature of their relationship at that time. I believe she had ended their relationship prior to the updated version that was done in Nov '86. I say that, because he really didn't change the style or sound of the song. He just removed a large chunk of her portion. Even if he decided he didn't want the spoken word included he should have kept the backround vocal with his lyric. It just sounds so much better.

violetcrush said:

databank said:

I think you misunderstood my replies above: the version of Crystal Ball that appeared on the 1998 album was completed in the fall of 1986, when Prince was working on the original 1986 Crystal Ball album that eventually became SOTT. It is, note for note, the exact same version. Prince never touched it again between late 1986 and its final release in 1998.

Ah, okay. I didn't realize he had removed her lyric/spoken words during the time that he added the CF arrangement. I still like the first recording, but the best would have been the original vocal/spoken word along with the CF arrangement.

It went like that as far as we know:

- April 86: Original long version without orchestra, included on DF2

- June or July 86: Edit of the above (intro edited to be shorter, not the same parts that were later edited out), still no orchestra, included on DF3

- August 86: Orchestra added on the original, unedited long version. Not known to have been considered for release.

- Some point between August and November 86: Final edit with orchestra, planned for release on CB in 87, then shelved, then released as such in 98.

databank said:

violetcrush said:

Ah, okay. I didn't realize he had removed her lyric/spoken words during the time that he added the CF arrangement. I still like the first recording, but the best would have been the original vocal/spoken word along with the CF arrangement.

It went like that as far as we know:

- April 86: Original long version without orchestra, included on DF2

- June or July 86: Edit of the above (intro edited to be shorter, not the same parts that were later edited out), still no orchestra, included on DF3

- August 86: Orchestra added on the original, unedited long version. Not known to have been considered for release.

- Some point between August and November 86: Final edit with orchestra, planned for release on CB in 87, then shelved, then released as such in 98.

So, we don't know on which edit he removed her backround vocal/spoken word?

violetcrush said:

databank said:

It went like that as far as we know:

- April 86: Original long version without orchestra, included on DF2

- June or July 86: Edit of the above (intro edited to be shorter, not the same parts that were later edited out), still no orchestra, included on DF3

- August 86: Orchestra added on the original, unedited long version. Not known to have been considered for release.

- Some point between August and November 86: Final edit with orchestra, planned for release on CB in 87, then shelved, then released as such in 98.

So, we don't know on which edit he removed her backround vocal/spoken word?

Yeah, we do: on the last one.

databank said:

violetcrush said:

So, we don't know on which edit he removed her backround vocal/spoken word?

Yeah, we do: on the last one.

Hmmm, okay. That may have been a spiteful "end of relationship" decision then.....

violetcrush said:

databank said:

Yeah, we do: on the last one.

Hmmm, okay. That may have been a spiteful "end of relationship" decision then.....

Honestly I think sometimes people are trying to read to much in what are, purely, artistic/esthetics decisions. But as I wasn't in P's mind your guess is as good as mine.

Tripping on the Extended Version of So Dark right now. While I can leave with CB being edited, I think it was damn criminal to edit that extended part out of So Dark

^Though in the specific context of CB, I can understand why he did it. Pace and sequencing, always...

databank said:

Tripping on the Extended Version of So Dark right now. While I can leave with CB being edited, I think it was damn criminal to edit that extended part out of So Dark

...

[Edited 6/24/18 17:05pm]

databank said:

^Though in the specific context of CB, I can understand why he did it. Pace and sequencing, always...

Yes, could have been as simple as him deciding it didn't flow with the song. The spoken word I can see with that, but not the backround vocal. To me, it lost something without that, but obviously he didn't feel that way!

databank said:

Tripping on the Extended Version of So Dark right now. While I can leave with CB being edited, I think it was damn criminal to edit that extended part out of So Dark

Funny, because many of his Engineers have stated they didn't understand why he made some of the edits or song choices that he made. But, his talent, his choice...

SkipperLove said:

violetcrush said:

was this song intended for a particular album at the time?? and then pulled...?

A career high.

Their best of their best, simply as that.

paulludvig said:

SkipperLove said:

Thank Wendy and LIsa for that one. They wrote the music apparently. He wrote the lyrics and sang that beautiful vocal..

I don't think Wendy had anything to do with the song. Lisa and Wendy are not joined at the hip.

Per Princevault.com:

*

Power Fantastic is the 20th and final track (second of two previously-unreleased tracks) on The B-Sides compilation (included as the third and final disc on The Hits / The B-Sides). The song was based on a track written by Wendy Melvoin and Lisa Coleman, entitled Carousel, but Prince wrote new lyrics, and their names are missing on the official credits.

The track was recorded live on 19 March 1986 (the same day as And How) at Prince's Galpin Blvd Home Studio in Chanhassen, Minnesota, during initial sessions for the Dream Factory album (The Hits / The B-Sides liner notes incorrectly state that it was recorded at Paisley Park Studios in Chanhassen, Minnesota). The song was not included on the late April configuration of the album, but was included on a configuration made on 3 June 1986, before being removed again for the July configuration. The instrumental intro to the song was removed when the track was placed on The Hits / The B-Sides in 1993.

*

Wendy and Lisa wrote the song together. Prince added lyrics to the music. There was also the instrumental intro that Prince removed for The Hits/The B-Sides....

[Edited 6/28/18 8:49am]

[Edited 6/28/18 9:00am]

SkipperLove said:

Thank Wendy and LIsa for that one. They wrote the music apparently. He wrote the lyrics and sang that beautiful vocal..

paulludvig said:

violetcrush said:

Hmmm, okay. That may have been a spiteful "end of relationship" decision then.....

The spoken word ruins the flow of tha song. I think he added it to start with to be nice to Susannah. When she was no longer in the picture he could remove the part.

I don't think the spoken word had anything to do with "being nice" to Susannah. Prince wrote and reccrded what HE wanted. Anyone doing backrounds just followed his instructions. He most likely decided the spoken word interrupted the flow of the music when he was adding Clare's arrangement and the extra noises. However, I think removing the chunk of backround vocal that originally flowed along wiith his spoken lyric was the wrong choice.

[Edited 6/28/18 9:08am]

TrevorAyer said:

Prince best album got burried in the crystal ball 3 cd mish mash ... had the sott leftovers been properly released as a cohesive album it would easily rank with sott and pr The inclusion of crystal ball and power fantastic guarantees that status .. throw in dream factory, last heart, wonderful ass, sexual suicide, movie star, rebirth of the flesh, a place in heaven, the ball and wally, and u have an undeniable masterpiece Market that to the public and they will crave every tape hissed crusty old demo prince ever locked away wanting more A proper b sides release not buried in a hits set would be eye opening to the public as well I honestly think the industry and even the family have mixed feelings about preserving prince legacy ... the industry hated him .. wb actively sabotaged prince indie release attempts ... his family was probably all jealous and would love to downplay his genius with these absurd releases ... we will probably get a tyka solo album before we get a pristine wally

Agreed on your opinion about the CB record. How great it would have been for him to have released it as it was originally intended, or as close as possible to the original plan. I would add Splash, Go and Empty Room on there too - even though they were not necessarily part of the plan they were recorded during that time.

*

Not sure about the motives of WB and/or his family. I think anytime money is involved there is conflict and division, unfortunately....

[Edited 6/28/18 9:06am]

Yup. Lisa is a badass.