Yeah I was just trying to point out that attempting to deduce something based on the location of his body in relation to the found pill bottles is essentially futile beause there are key variables that we have no knowledge of (such as where he was located when he swallowed the pills, why and where he boarded the elevator, how many pills he swallowed, etc.)

purplerabbithole said:

Sure, that is reasonable. My suicide theory is just that -- a theory. and it is not just based on the location of his body. He could have just taken the pills on accident because he was in denial or confused about which ones he just took...Sure, that is reasonable..I admit. But other actions and statements of his (along with his sister's accounts of his cryptic messages) are making me theorize that suicide is not far-fetched. Regardless, throwing caution to the wind due to an addiction is the long version of gradual suicide anyhow if you think about it.

disch said:

we do not know how many pills he swallowed and where he was located when he swallowed them. For all we know he tossed a few pills in his mouth and swallowed them while he was stepping into the elevator.

[Edited 6/18/18 22:11pm]

[Edited 6/18/18 22:16pm]

purplerabbithole said:

Sure, that is reasonable. My suicide theory is just that -- a theory. and it is not just based on the location of his body. He could have just taken the pills on accident because he was in denial or confused about which ones he just took...Sure, that is reasonable..I admit. But other actions and statements of his (along with his sister's accounts of his cryptic messages) are making me theorize that suicide is not far-fetched. Regardless, throwing caution to the wind due to an addiction is the long version of gradual suicide anyhow if you think about it.

disch said:

we do not know how many pills he swallowed and where he was located when he swallowed them. For all we know he tossed a few pills in his mouth and swallowed them while he was stepping into the elevator.

[Edited 6/18/18 22:11pm]

the elevator is very possibly a typical prince message, he let the elevator bring him down. I just happen to think that is not coincidental. I think it's intentional. Of course it all sounds better to make it sound like an accident, it spares a lot of feelings for a lot of his family and his fans, and it is possible, which is why I wish we had better info available, so much we don't know, so much we'll never know the farther we get away from that night. Menes almost seems to be trying to subtly say it's intentional murder, which I doubt, i think that one is the most ludicrous of theories.

Menes said:

disch said:

No frankly, I don't "see," and if you're not interested in engaging in a discussion using standard english and without the tiresome crytic-ness (an epidemic here, unfortunately) then I can't be bothered. I've posted many, many, many posts with my own research and theories; I'm not going to take on yours.

[Edited 6/18/18 22:04pm]

This is stanadard. Good night.

Unless I am missing something,this is how I see it. He took the Fentanyl, soon realized he was in trouble, got into the elevator, pushed the buttons, vomited and passed out.

disch said:

Yeah I was just trying to point out that attempting to deduce something based on the location of his body in relation to the found pill bottles is essentially futile beause there are key variables that we have no knowledge of (such as where he was located when he swallowed the pills, why and where he boarded the elevator, how many pills he swallowed, etc.)

purplerabbithole said:

Sure, that is reasonable. My suicide theory is just that -- a theory. and it is not just based on the location of his body. He could have just taken the pills on accident because he was in denial or confused about which ones he just took...Sure, that is reasonable..I admit. But other actions and statements of his (along with his sister's accounts of his cryptic messages) are making me theorize that suicide is not far-fetched. Regardless, throwing caution to the wind due to an addiction is the long version of gradual suicide anyhow if you think about it.

[Edited 6/18/18 22:11pm]

[Edited 6/18/18 22:16pm]

that's right and what can we do with all this bullshit conflicting info? they said fentanyl was deadly to the touch, so even if he grabbed them pills that was enough to kill him, then we hear that ain't true, it don't sound true either. I can't imagine too many things that toxic that whatever miniscule amount absorbed through a small surface of the body would kill you.

PeteSilas said:

purplerabbithole said:

Sure, that is reasonable. My suicide theory is just that -- a theory. and it is not just based on the location of his body. He could have just taken the pills on accident because he was in denial or confused about which ones he just took...Sure, that is reasonable..I admit. But other actions and statements of his (along with his sister's accounts of his cryptic messages) are making me theorize that suicide is not far-fetched. Regardless, throwing caution to the wind due to an addiction is the long version of gradual suicide anyhow if you think about it.

[Edited 6/18/18 22:11pm]

the elevator is very possibly a typical prince message, he let the elevator bring him down. I just happen to think that is not coincidental. I think it's intentional. Of course it all sounds better to make it sound like an accident, it spares a lot of feelings for a lot of his family and his fans, and it is possible, which is why I wish we had better info available, so much we don't know, so much we'll never know the farther we get away from that night. Menes almost seems to be trying to subtly say it's intentional murder, which I doubt, i think that one is the most ludicrous of theories.

I was going to stay out of this thread because my suicide theory is too much for folks on here as the org gone conservative in recent years but Petesilas you have been talking my language.

Now some people think he was murder. I don't think he was but it could be possible a pain man was being taken advantage of.

[Edited 6/18/18 22:47pm]

Menes said:

purplerabbithole said:

It was in his stomach and liver. Maybe, he took it more than once that night, but the first dose wasn't enough to kill him and the second dose starting to hit the liver, coupled with what was already in his liver did the trick. If it took long enough for him to walk to an elevator, it would have theoretically taken long enough to for him to get down the elevator. How far away from his room is the elevator. Maybe, he just waited it out in the elevator. We have no idea how long he was in there. Plus, there was no reason for him to not grab a landline and call. One would think if he had the presense of mind to go to an elevator, he would have the presense of mind to make a call. An elevator seems like a really odd decision and a real symbolic one as well...Jesus, his most famous metaphor contains an elevator.

Figure it out. Where were the pills found? Where is the elevator? Addicts feed where they feel most comfortable. Hide. Can you ingest that much fentanyl and be cognitive ?It was quite a bit. Per the ME reports, measure the amount of fentanyl (injected) vs the amount of fentanyl measured that he swallowed ( via pill form) to support any reactionary measures( specifically ,consciousness). Was there enough time to make a logical decision to enter the elevator ? At some point, we have to understand what is happening once he ingested the deadly substance. This is the starting point. We can't keep going around and around, or, avoiding something like the investigation did.

I personally believe Prince died in his bed - where were the pills? Beside his bed. Along with half-consumed water and grape juice bottles. The next morning, as I recall from the police reports (but it has been awhile - forgive me if I'm not recalling correctly), Kirk started to call him and Prince did not pick up. Once at PP, I believe he left Kornfeld with Meron and went searching for Prince. Didn't he then come back, get Meron, leaving Kornfeld alone - then Kornfeld heard Meron scream. The body had been found in the elevator - the elevator Meron stated Prince used all the time.

Here is the part I don't understand. They found Prince collapsed in the elevator but Kirk did not even attempt to pull him out to see if he was ok. Did he already know Prince was dead? That would be curious, since when emergency personnel arrived many minutes later, they DID NOT make the instant assumption he was dead...in fact, they stated that his skin was warm and moist and so they pulled him out of the elevator and began resuscitation efforts immediately before declaring him deceased. Kirk had worked for Prince for many years. If I put myself in the same situation, my reflex would be to rush into the elevator and pull him out to do SOMETHING. Anything. But that didn't happen. Kirk left him laying there and waited for emergency personnel to arrive, as if he already knew there was nothing to be done. I find that very odd.

His clothing was on backwards? And yet he had been seen at the doctor's office, and pacing outside the pharmacy the previous evening in the same clothing. He wasn't known for going to bed early, quite the opposite. So should we then assume that he was out in public the night before with all his clothing on inside-out and backwards? Or are we to assume that he undressed and went to bed, got up, dressed himself in inside-out/backwards clothing, and made his way to the elevator where he suddenly overdosed and died? The jacket laying conspicuously in the hallway feels like a plant to me - there was no reason for it to be there and even Kirk said it was 'not normal'.

If I am right, I can't imagine what reason there might have been to move the body into the elevator. Unless perhaps it was a suicide, with a note that may have been destroyed or hidden, and the scene set up to look like an overdose. For what purpose? Who knows. This is all pure speculation on my part, but these are nagging thoughts that caught my attention as soon as I read the reports.

Not to mention the erased emails on his computer, the very strange order Kirk gave to cleaning staff to remove a stain in the hallway leading to the elevator (when the rest of the home was unkempt). I could go on and on, but that's enough for tonight. Just my observations.

[Edited 6/18/18 22:47pm]

[Edited 6/18/18 22:53pm]

fortuneandserendipity said:

pricetag said:

Just calling you out publicly. People should know that, along with your posts, you like to send rude, sneering orgnotes as well. How's that for sociopathic? You're a sad little fool. No more batshit orgnotes, ok? Otehrwise you'll get reported.

Calling me out for what? Rude, sneering. Try looking in the mirror?

You're a sociopath because you constantly make snarky comments, they're all over this thread! You were snide to petesilas on another thread. It's like you have some kind of grudge. I sent you ONE orgnote, 5 words long, after your hate filled bile. So nice try with the lying. Sociopaths are big on that.

First. The definition of a sociopath is not someone who makes "snarky comments" or "lies". Do yourself a favor. Look it up. Second. You're judgement is as bad as your English...you admit to sending an orgnote but continue to call me a liar. Weird. Anyway, at least you're keeping this out in the open. Like I said, be warned. Don't do anything on the snide.

Nola said:

Menes said:

Figure it out. Where were the pills found? Where is the elevator? Addicts feed where they feel most comfortable. Hide. Can you ingest that much fentanyl and be cognitive ?It was quite a bit. Per the ME reports, measure the amount of fentanyl (injected) vs the amount of fentanyl measured that he swallowed ( via pill form) to support any reactionary measures( specifically ,consciousness). Was there enough time to make a logical decision to enter the elevator ? At some point, we have to understand what is happening once he ingested the deadly substance. This is the starting point. We can't keep going around and around, or, avoiding something like the investigation did.

I personally believe Prince died in his bed - where were the pills? Beside his bed. Along with half-consumed water and grape juice bottles. The next morning, as I recall from the police reports (but it has been awhile - forgive me if I'm not recalling correctly), Kirk started to call him and Prince did not pick up. Once at PP, I believe he left Schulenberg with Meron and went searching for Prince. Didn't he then come back, get Meron, leaving Schulenberg alone - then Schulenberg heard Meron scream. The body had been found in the elevator - the elevator Meron stated Prince used all the time.

Here is the part I don't understand. They found Prince collapsed in the elevator but Kirk did not even attempt to pull him out to see if he was ok. Did he already know Prince was dead? That would be curious, since when emergency personnel arrived many minutes later, they DID NOT make the instant assumption he was dead...in fact, they stated that his skin was warm and moist and so they pulled him out of the elevator and began resuscitation efforts immediately before declaring him deceased. Kirk had worked for Prince for many years. If I put myself in the same situation, my reflex would be to rush into the elevator and pull him out to do SOMETHING. Anything. But that didn't happen. Kirk left him laying there and waited for emergency personnel to arrive, as if he already knew there was nothing to be done. I find that very odd.

His clothing was on backwards? And yet he had been seen at the doctor's office, and pacing outside the pharmacy the previous evening in the same clothing. He wasn't known for going to bed early, quite the opposite. So should we then assume that he was out in public the night before with all his clothing on inside-out and backwards? Or are we to assume that he undressed and went to bed, got up, dressed himself in inside-out/backwards clothing, and made his way to the elevator where he suddenly overdosed and died? The jacket laying conspicuously in the hallway feels like a plant to me - there was no reason for it to be there and even Kirk said it was 'not normal'.

If I am right, I can't imagine what reason there might have been to move the body into the elevator. Unless perhaps it was a suicide, with a note that may have been destroyed or hidden, and the scene set up to look like an overdose. For what purpose? Who knows. This is all pure speculation on my part, but these are nagging thoughts that caught my attention as soon as I read the reports.

Not to mention the erased emails on his computer, the very strange order Kirk gave to cleaning staff to remove a stain in the hallway leading to the elevator (when the rest of the home was unkempt). I could go on and on, but that's enough for tonight. Just my observations.

To my knowledge, there was vomit on or near the control panels. This is why I think he likely walked/stumbled into the elevator, vomited and collapsed.

Re:his backward clothing I think Purplerabbithole had a plausible suggestion. When Kirk and Meron found him, he likely had vomit on his clothes. They turned them inside out to hide the vomit stains.

as they knew there would be pictures.

peggyon said:

Nola said:

I personally believe Prince died in his bed - where were the pills? Beside his bed. Along with half-consumed water and grape juice bottles. The next morning, as I recall from the police reports (but it has been awhile - forgive me if I'm not recalling correctly), Kirk started to call him and Prince did not pick up. Once at PP, I believe he left Schulenberg with Meron and went searching for Prince. Didn't he then come back, get Meron, leaving Schulenberg alone - then Schulenberg heard Meron scream. The body had been found in the elevator - the elevator Meron stated Prince used all the time.

Here is the part I don't understand. They found Prince collapsed in the elevator but Kirk did not even attempt to pull him out to see if he was ok. Did he already know Prince was dead? That would be curious, since when emergency personnel arrived many minutes later, they DID NOT make the instant assumption he was dead...in fact, they stated that his skin was warm and moist and so they pulled him out of the elevator and began resuscitation efforts immediately before declaring him deceased. Kirk had worked for Prince for many years. If I put myself in the same situation, my reflex would be to rush into the elevator and pull him out to do SOMETHING. Anything. But that didn't happen. Kirk left him laying there and waited for emergency personnel to arrive, as if he already knew there was nothing to be done. I find that very odd.

His clothing was on backwards? And yet he had been seen at the doctor's office, and pacing outside the pharmacy the previous evening in the same clothing. He wasn't known for going to bed early, quite the opposite. So should we then assume that he was out in public the night before with all his clothing on inside-out and backwards? Or are we to assume that he undressed and went to bed, got up, dressed himself in inside-out/backwards clothing, and made his way to the elevator where he suddenly overdosed and died? The jacket laying conspicuously in the hallway feels like a plant to me - there was no reason for it to be there and even Kirk said it was 'not normal'.

If I am right, I can't imagine what reason there might have been to move the body into the elevator. Unless perhaps it was a suicide, with a note that may have been destroyed or hidden, and the scene set up to look like an overdose. For what purpose? Who knows. This is all pure speculation on my part, but these are nagging thoughts that caught my attention as soon as I read the reports.

Not to mention the erased emails on his computer, the very strange order Kirk gave to cleaning staff to remove a stain in the hallway leading to the elevator (when the rest of the home was unkempt). I could go on and on, but that's enough for tonight. Just my observations.

To my knowledge, there was vomit on or near the control panels. This is why I think he likely walked/stumbled into the elevator, vomited and collapsed.

Re:his backward clothing I think Purplerabbithole had a plausible suggestion. When Kirk and Meron found him, he likely had vomit on his clothes. They turned them inside out to hide the vomit stains.

as they knew there would be pictures.

There was a *small* amount of what appeared to be dried, clear fluid on the floor of the elevator and splattered on the elevator wall. It certainly didn't look like vomit in the usual sense. If there was similar 'vomit' on his clothing, it is unlikely (to me) it would have been any more noticeable than the small amount of clear, dried fluid on the floor of the elevator. If Kirk and Meron took the time to undress the corpse and re-dress it, that would indicate they already knew he was deceased, and yet the emergency personnel did not make the assumption he was already dead.

[Edited 6/18/18 22:58pm]

[Edited 6/18/18 23:05pm]

disch said:

we do not know how many pills he swallowed and where he was located when he swallowed them. For all we know he tossed a few pills in his mouth and swallowed them while he was stepping into the elevator.

purplerabbithole said:

It was in his stomach and liver. Maybe, he took it more than once that night, but the first dose wasn't enough to kill him and the second dose starting to hit the liver, coupled with what was already in his liver did the trick. If it took long enough for him to walk to an elevator, it would have theoretically taken long enough to for him to get down the elevator. How far away from his room is the elevator. Maybe, he just waited it out in the elevator. We have no idea how long he was in there. Plus, there was no reason for him to not grab a landline and call. One would think if he had the presense of mind to go to an elevator, he would have the presense of mind to make a call. An elevator seems like a really odd decision and a real symbolic one as well...Jesus, his most famous metaphor contains an elevator.

I always wonder that too. I listened to nearly all the press conferences that involved the investigation and they never mentioned how many pills he could swallowed or did swallowed.

And I haven't checked all the files I read some so...

there was vomit in his mouth and the paramedics did the standard thing to make it official but that doctor's son (who had gone through med school) had already noticed rigor mortis in P's arm. they knew he was dead moments after finding him. Maybe because the young man wasn't officially a doctor, he didn't want the paramedics to think he was overstepping or tampering or influencing the outcome of what happened. But apparently, it was rather obvious. If you move a dead body, wouldn't there be proof of moving the body...bruising or sometime. He had rigor mortis that implied that he had been dead for at least 3-6 hours I believe. If they suspected that foul play was up, couldn't hte cops have checked the records of the hotel and restaurant to check their timelines?

Nola said:

peggyon said:

To my knowledge, there was vomit on or near the control panels. This is why I think he likely walked/stumbled into the elevator, vomited and collapsed.

Re:his backward clothing I think Purplerabbithole had a plausible suggestion. When Kirk and Meron found him, he likely had vomit on his clothes. They turned them inside out to hide the vomit stains.

as they knew there would be pictures.

There was a *small* amount of what appeared to be dried, clear fluid on the floor of the elevator and splattered on the elevator wall. It certainly didn't look like vomit in the usual sense. If there was similar 'vomit' on his clothing, it is unlikely (to me) it would have been any more noticeable than the small amount of clear, dried fluid on the floor of the elevator. If Kirk and Meron took the time to undress the corpse and re-dress it, that would indicate they already knew he was deceased, and yet the emergency personnel did not make the assumption he was already dead.

[Edited 6/18/18 22:58pm]

[Edited 6/18/18 23:05pm]

[Edited 6/18/18 23:24pm]

[Edited 6/18/18 23:26pm]

If he took the drugs more than once that night, he could have vomited earlier that night. And then still decided to take another dose in the elevator. The stain in the hallway may have been from an earlier time.

peggyon said:

Unless I am missing something,this is how I see it. He took the Fentanyl, soon realized he was in trouble, got into the elevator, pushed the buttons, vomited and passed out.

purplerabbithole said:

there was vomit in his mouth and the paramedics did the standard thing to make it official but that doctor's son (who had gone through med school) had already noticed rigor mortis in P's arm. they knew he was dead moments after finding him. Maybe because the young man wasn't officially a doctor, he didn't want the paramedics to think he was overstepping or tampering or influencing the outcome of what happened. But apparently, it was rather obvious.

Nola said:

There was a *small* amount of what appeared to be dried, clear fluid on the floor of the elevator and splattered on the elevator wall. It certainly didn't look like vomit in the usual sense. If there was similar 'vomit' on his clothing, it is unlikely (to me) it would have been any more noticeable than the small amount of clear, dried fluid on the floor of the elevator. If Kirk and Meron took the time to undress the corpse and re-dress it, that would indicate they already knew he was deceased, and yet the emergency personnel did not make the assumption he was already dead.

[Edited 6/18/18 22:58pm]

[Edited 6/18/18 23:05pm]

[Edited 6/18/18 23:24pm]

That's right...I'd forgotten the report that there was vomit in his mouth at the time. And I do remember now...Kornfeld reported that he noticed rigor mortis when he ran to find out what Meron was screaming about. I didn't realize that resucitation efforts are a matter of standard procedure in cases like this and that they don't automatically declare a subject deceased. I don't know any first responders personally, but that may well be true.

purplerabbithole said:

If he took the drugs more than once that night, he could have vomited earlier that night. And then still decided to take another dose in the elevator. The stain in the hallway may have been from an earlier time.

peggyon said:

Unless I am missing something,this is how I see it. He took the Fentanyl, soon realized he was in trouble, got into the elevator, pushed the buttons, vomited and passed out.

Yes, that may well be true. I only noticed it in the reports because it seemed to me that his home wasn't exactly immaculate or well cared-for. Cleaning a carpet stain seemed an odd thing for the staff to be focused on so soon after death, when it may potentially have been considered evidence. (On the other hand, they released the scene fairly quickly). The police were back to PP many times as we now know (including pick-up of the now tampered-with computer many days later). So many things about this situation just feel 'off' to me.

PeteSilas said:

Maybe, the cops had already taken a sample from the stain (scrapped it or whatever)... and Kirk just didn't want drug stains all over the place. I don't recall. Who said the stain was cleaned? Who witnessed it? or was it just rumors from visitors who later entered Paisley?

Nola said:

purplerabbithole said:

If he took the drugs more than once that night, he could have vomited earlier that night. And then still decided to take another dose in the elevator. The stain in the hallway may have been from an earlier time.

Yes, that may well be true. I only noticed it in the reports because it seemed to me that his home wasn't exactly immaculate or well cared-for. Cleaning a carpet stain seemed an odd thing for the staff to be focused on so soon after death, when it may potentially have been considered evidence. (On the other hand, they released the scene fairly quickly). The police were back to PP many times as we now know (including pick-up of the now tampered-with computer many days later). So many things about this situation just feel 'off' to me.

[Snip - luv4u]

Menes said:

This is not an open and shut O.D. case. Yes, Fent killed him, but what was his motivation to take it? There is so much here that a top-notch investigative team could handle. I don't believe he took a pill, then collapsed in the elevator. I do think it was deliberate. I think he was in the elevator deliberately. And I think it was tentatively planned for a while.

peggyon said:

peggyon said:

I think we need professionall assistance (MD) to assist us with determining how long it takes for a drug like Fentanyl to reach the liver from the time of ingestion.

And, to clarify the vomit, I believe it was found near the control panels. (I read the reports weeks ago)

I believe it was in his throat also.

Interesting comments by all on what may have happened. Now all we need is for Kirk to release a book to see who has come close.

fortuneandserendipity said:

Dimitri10 said:

Interesting comments by all on what may have happened. Now all we need is for Kirk to release a book to see who has come close.

The Vault will remain closed on that. A loyal "right hand man" would never do that.

disch said:

I'm confused -- I'm not the one insisting it's important; you are. So why don't you share what you've found (and what you conclude about it) instead of falling back on cryptic language and demanding that others research for you?

Menes said:

It appears as though your browser and settings for google are not operational, or, rather, selectively operational. With all the research you've contributed, you cant find such things? It is important. Do something. Jesus.

Because he is a knob head who thinks he is cleverer than he is. The pseudo intellectual scribblings of a lonely nerd whose internet persona brings him feelings of overwhelming superiority. In real life? A waste of space.

TrevorAyer said:

Isn’t suicide stricly forbidden in the christian jw religion? Are you suggesting that the prince religious persona was as fake as the anti drug persona?

Organized religions prohibit a lot of things. But Prince, being Prince, was going to do whatever the hell he wanted to do, when he wanted to do it. I don't know if he was under the JW spell toward the end of his life. Some people said he wasn't. Who knows?

Menes said:

Menes said:

You see how fast they disappear? Come out and chat you brood of vipers. You've been hemming and hawing all damn week and now you've gone silent? Howdy, Violet, hello, Krsytal. Greetings. Come out and reason. I'm Menes , pleased to meet you. Contribute!

Oh Penny, Penny.....we're all still here, believe me. Still reading the posts going 'round and 'round again about this pill and that pill, and which one could it have been that killed him? The drug that killed him is the same one that would have killed him on the way back from Atlanta, had there not been an emergency landing and a double dose of Narcan administered on the Tarmac. He was lucky to have survived at that point, and the only reason he did is because the Pilot made an emergency landing in just enough time to save him.

violetcrush said:

Menes said:

Oh Penny, Penny.....we're all still here, believe me. Still reading the posts going 'round and 'round again about this pill and that pill, and which one could it have been that killed him? The drug that killed him is the same one that would have killed him on the way back from Atlanta, had there not been an emergency landing and a double dose of Narcan administered on the Tarmac. He was lucky to have survived at that point, and the only reason he did is because the Pilot made an emergency landing in just enough time to save him.

You quoted Menes, yet mention me?

PennyPurple said:

violetcrush said:

Oh Penny, Penny.....we're all still here, believe me. Still reading the posts going 'round and 'round again about this pill and that pill, and which one could it have been that killed him? The drug that killed him is the same one that would have killed him on the way back from Atlanta, had there not been an emergency landing and a double dose of Narcan administered on the Tarmac. He was lucky to have survived at that point, and the only reason he did is because the Pilot made an emergency landing in just enough time to save him.

You quoted Menes, yet mention me?

You're actually connected to that post - you know, that "double-teaming" action...616 of the 618 posts, blah, blah, blah.....