purplerabbithole said:

I think Prince did detest drug usage. That's why it was such a secret. he was ashamed.

PennyPurple said:

I guess the difference between Petty and Prince, is we knew about Petty's heavy drug use, where us fans didn't know about Princes, because we were led to believe he detested drug use.

Or, more likely, he didn't the view it the same way as what most people think is a "drug user" since it was probably almost always prescribed by a doctor and, I have no reason to think otherwise, for a good long while he probably needed them and his use was legit.

I mean, no one thinks of a cancer patient on Oxy, Morphine, Fentanyl or even marijuana as a "drug user" in the traditional sense. Or a depressed or anxious person who uses Xanax or something like that. It's "medicine" in any case, just some of it in the darker corners of life is "self prescribed". Receiving it from a doctor via a prescription lends it an air of credibility, even if in some cases the medication itself is stronger and more dangerous than things you can get off the street (weed, XTC, LSD).

Also, yeah, it's been pointed out but the big difference between Petty and Prince is that Petty was open about his usage and his past problems so that whole thing is apples to oranges.

So much of the real failure I see in these threads to really understand and comprehend what happened with Prince seems to hang on certain people's total, rigid, dogmatic and inflexible binary view of "drugs" - Good and evil - and the automatic assumption that anyone who uses "drugs" or succumbs to addiction is weak, bad, lacking in moral fiber and...well..."dirty" or something. It's absurd but I think that's why some people bend over backwards looking for other (often crazy) reasons and explanations fro Prince's overdose.

peggyon said:

I think this thread and others like it are heavily travelled because we sense that important information is missing re: Prince. I feel as though I have been reading a two-year-long Agatha Christie novel.

Yes this is the way I felt when POIROT died. It's like ok I feel at peace now he's gone and don't have to tolerate any more of his camp mannerisms, endless pontificating and dilly-dallying.

rednblue said:

herb4 said:

purplerabbithole said:

I think Prince did detest drug usage. That's why it was such a secret. he was ashamed.

Or, more likely, he didn't the view it the same way as what most people think is a "drug user" since it was probably almost always prescribed by a doctor and, I have no reason to think otherwise, for a good long while he probably needed them and his use was legit.

I mean, no one thinks of a cancer patient on Oxy, Morphine, Fentanyl or even marijuana as a "drug user" in the traditional sense. Or a depressed or anxious person who uses Xanax or something like that. It's "medicine" in any case, just some of it in the darker corners of life is "self prescribed". Receiving it from a doctor via a prescription lends it an air of credibility, even if in some cases the medication itself is stronger and more dangerous than things you can get off the street (weed, XTC, LSD).

Also, yeah, it's been pointed out but the big difference between Petty and Prince is that Petty was open about his usage and his past problems so that whole thing is apples to oranges.

So much of the real failure I see in these threads to really understand and comprehend what happened with Prince seems to hang on certain people's total, rigid, dogmatic and inflexible binary view of "drugs" - Good and evil - and the automatic assumption that anyone who uses "drugs" or succumbs to addiction is weak, bad, lacking in moral fiber and...well..."dirty" or something. It's absurd but I think that's why some people bend over backwards looking for other (often crazy) reasons and explanations fro Prince's overdose.

^Yes these same people walk around 'swivel-eyed'. LR is one of them

They've never understood the concept "Thoughts lie", and that to be intelligent you have to be open-minded, question your own beliefs. Not doing so causes people to project their own issues onto others.

RJP1205 said:

rednblue said:

I'd just been reflecting that I should watch putting things in a way that comes off hoity-toity. Thank you for your thoughts and patience!

RE: "...love them for all the good they did and let the rest go."

I don't think the addiction-related death is any lack of good in and of itself. Same goes for struggles with heart disease, Alzheimers, diabetes, cancer, etc.

That said, was thinking after writing earlier comment, that some wish to speak only about an artist's art. Some speak of other things in the artist's biography. If we do speak of other things, while I strongly believe it's best to emphasize strengths, I don't think we should portray someone as perfect. People are human, and getting back to love...unconditional love is about loving someone for their heart, their brilliance, their warts, and all in between. Also, if there is a narrative that there are a bunch of perfect people out there, it promotes shame and insecurity for everyone, including (and maybe even especially for) the portrayed-as-perfect people themselves.

On the subject of sons, I feel you. I, too, am constantly cautioning my son about things. I want him to have a good head on his shoulders. My guy is 12. Here's to the next generation of Prince fans!

💜 I love when I catch my son singing a Prince tune!

me too! Would make the heart purple, but can't find that emoticon, LOL. Probably right in front of my nose.

Also, thank you so much for your work helping families.

herb4 said:

Or, more likely, he didn't the view it the same way as what most people think is a "drug user" since it was probably almost always prescribed by a doctor and, I have no reason to think otherwise, for a good long while he probably needed them and his use was legit.

I mean, no one thinks of a cancer patient on Oxy, Morphine, Fentanyl or even marijuana as a "drug user" in the traditional sense. Or a depressed or anxious person who uses Xanax or something like that. It's "medicine" in any case, just some of it in the darker corners of life is "self prescribed". Receiving it from a doctor via a prescription lends it an air of credibility, even if in some cases the medication itself is stronger and more dangerous than things you can get off the street (weed, XTC, LSD).

Also, yeah, it's been pointed out but the big difference between Petty and Prince is that Petty was open about his usage and his past problems so that whole thing is apples to oranges.

So much of the real failure I see in these threads to really understand and comprehend what happened with Prince seems to hang on certain people's total, rigid, dogmatic and inflexible binary view of "drugs" - Good and evil - and the automatic assumption that anyone who uses "drugs" or succumbs to addiction is weak, bad, lacking in moral fiber and...well..."dirty" or something. It's absurd but I think that's why some people bend over backwards looking for other (often crazy) reasons and explanations fro Prince's overdose.

I haven't seen that. I don't recall anybody here thinking or saying Prince was a no good junkie, or was weak or lacked moral fiber.

PennyPurple said:

herb4 said:

Or, more likely, he didn't the view it the same way as what most people think is a "drug user" since it was probably almost always prescribed by a doctor and, I have no reason to think otherwise, for a good long while he probably needed them and his use was legit.

I mean, no one thinks of a cancer patient on Oxy, Morphine, Fentanyl or even marijuana as a "drug user" in the traditional sense. Or a depressed or anxious person who uses Xanax or something like that. It's "medicine" in any case, just some of it in the darker corners of life is "self prescribed". Receiving it from a doctor via a prescription lends it an air of credibility, even if in some cases the medication itself is stronger and more dangerous than things you can get off the street (weed, XTC, LSD).

Also, yeah, it's been pointed out but the big difference between Petty and Prince is that Petty was open about his usage and his past problems so that whole thing is apples to oranges.

So much of the real failure I see in these threads to really understand and comprehend what happened with Prince seems to hang on certain people's total, rigid, dogmatic and inflexible binary view of "drugs" - Good and evil - and the automatic assumption that anyone who uses "drugs" or succumbs to addiction is weak, bad, lacking in moral fiber and...well..."dirty" or something. It's absurd but I think that's why some people bend over backwards looking for other (often crazy) reasons and explanations fro Prince's overdose.

I haven't seen that. I don't recall anybody here thinking or saying Prince was a no good junkie, or was weak or lacked moral fiber.

You must have missed the posts by

RJP1205 said:

rednblue said:

I'd just been reflecting that I should watch putting things in a way that comes off hoity-toity. Thank you for your thoughts and patience!

RE: "...love them for all the good they did and let the rest go."

I don't think the addiction-related death is any lack of good in and of itself. Same goes for struggles with heart disease, Alzheimers, diabetes, cancer, etc.

That said, was thinking after writing earlier comment, that some wish to speak only about an artist's art. Some speak of other things in the artist's biography. If we do speak of other things, while I strongly believe it's best to emphasize strengths, I don't think we should portray someone as perfect. People are human, and getting back to love...unconditional love is about loving someone for their heart, their brilliance, their warts, and all in between. Also, if there is a narrative that there are a bunch of perfect people out there, it promotes shame and insecurity for everyone, including (and maybe even especially for) the portrayed-as-perfect people themselves.

On the subject of sons, I feel you. I, too, am constantly cautioning my son about things. I want him to have a good head on his shoulders. My guy is 12. Here's to the next generation of Prince fans!

💜 I love when I catch my son singing a Prince tune!

Yesterday my husband came home from work and walked in the door singing "built like she was, she had the nerve to ask me if I planned to do her any harm"...I freaked out, melted, and realized Prince is not 'gone'...he's just in a different place. RIP

fortuneandserendipity said:

PennyPurple said:

I haven't seen that. I don't recall anybody here thinking or saying Prince was a no good junkie, or was weak or lacked moral fiber.

You must have missed the posts by

Oh! well she's been gone for so long, she isn't even on this thread so I was thrown for a loop. LOL

Bodhitheblackdog said:

RJP1205 said:

rednblue said: 💜 I love when I catch my son singing a Prince tune!

Yesterday my husband came home from work and walked in the door singing "built like she was, she had the nerve to ask me if I planned to do her any harm"...I freaked out, melted, and realized Prince is not 'gone'...he's just in a different place. RIP

rednblue said:

Probably should add this to the subject of an addiction-related death investigation. To state the obvious, things (be it food, drink, drugs, etc.) ingested is also a subject with mind-boggling, and sometimes surprising, complexity. Substances can offer both benefit and risk within a single individual. Also, risks/benefits of substances vary from person to person. Not at all to say that there aren't substances to be avoided at all costs, as well as substances that it would be near impossible to ingest enough of to present a risk. It's just that it can be complicated, sometimes surprisingly so.

Also, importantly, nobody wants to see a person tortured by pain and suffering.

I've gone on way too long with these posts. These links explore one area of complexity.

Quote from first article: "

The study represents a resurgence in research at Johns Hopkins, New York University and other academic institutions looking at whether mind-altering psychedelics, such as LSD, mushrooms and ecstasy can be effective in treating a variety of emotional and addictive disorders.

Gordon McGlothlin took part in a Johns Hopkins program to use psychedelics to help him stop smoking. He is pictured near one of his pieces of art he created. Its part of a resurgence in the use of the drug to help treat a variety of disorders.

(Lloyd Fox / Baltimore Sun)

Scientists have discovered that psychedelic drugs have the potential to relieve clinical depression, anxiety in cancer patients, depression in hospice patients, post-traumatic stress disorder and obsessive-compulsive disorder.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-psychedielics-come-back-20160809-story.html


https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/05/15/611225541/reluctant-psychonaut-michael-pollan-embraces-the-new-science-of-psychedelics

[Edited 6/12/18 10:33am]

Yes I've read separate studies relating to isolates in mushrooms, ketamine, and cannabis (CBD part) that appear to alleviate anxiety, depression.

Also, former opiate users with depleted number of glutamate receptors in prefrontal cortex, grew them back after CBD use. Which could have to do with CBD itself, or merely discontinuation of the opiates?

When you think P may have had this problem in the prefrontal cortex, amazing he could still put out great work. Maybe he had surfeit of those receptors to begin with. Quite probably, Mozart had mass excess of glutamate receptors if 'experts' (of whom i am one) are to be believed. Mozart, Prince have the same musical ability in my view.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

RJP1205 said:

rednblue said: 💜 I love when I catch my son singing a Prince tune!

Yesterday my husband came home from work and walked in the door singing "built like she was, she had the nerve to ask me if I planned to do her any harm"...I freaked out, melted, and realized Prince is not 'gone'...he's just in a different place. RIP

This makes my day. Also, RB is one of my husband's favorite P songs. I love it, too. Many of my favorites didn't chart, but love, love, love RB. So joyous, playful, and it just makes you want to move. Got P's humor (like in the line your husband was singing), and lines like this:

"Seems that I was busy doing something close to nothing
But different than the day before"

and

"Thunder drowns out what the lightning sees"

PennyPurple said:

Krystalkisses said:

I always loved when they used to call Prince the " The Modern Day Mozart"

YES! I think it fits!

Bodhitheblackdog said:

RJP1205 said:

rednblue said: 💜 I love when I catch my son singing a Prince tune!

Yesterday my husband came home from work and walked in the door singing "built like she was, she had the nerve to ask me if I planned to do her any harm"...I freaked out, melted, and realized Prince is not 'gone'...he's just in a different place. RIP

fortuneandserendipity said:

rednblue said:

Probably should add this to the subject of an addiction-related death investigation. To state the obvious, things (be it food, drink, drugs, etc.) ingested is also a subject with mind-boggling, and sometimes surprising, complexity. Substances can offer both benefit and risk within a single individual. Also, risks/benefits of substances vary from person to person. Not at all to say that there aren't substances to be avoided at all costs, as well as substances that it would be near impossible to ingest enough of to present a risk. It's just that it can be complicated, sometimes surprisingly so.

Also, importantly, nobody wants to see a person tortured by pain and suffering.

I've gone on way too long with these posts. These links explore one area of complexity.

Quote from first article: "

The study represents a resurgence in research at Johns Hopkins, New York University and other academic institutions looking at whether mind-altering psychedelics, such as LSD, mushrooms and ecstasy can be effective in treating a variety of emotional and addictive disorders.

Gordon McGlothlin took part in a Johns Hopkins program to use psychedelics to help him stop smoking. He is pictured near one of his pieces of art he created. Its part of a resurgence in the use of the drug to help treat a variety of disorders.

(Lloyd Fox / Baltimore Sun)

Scientists have discovered that psychedelic drugs have the potential to relieve clinical depression, anxiety in cancer patients, depression in hospice patients, post-traumatic stress disorder and obsessive-compulsive disorder.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bs-hs-psychedielics-come-back-20160809-story.html


https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/05/15/611225541/reluctant-psychonaut-michael-pollan-embraces-the-new-science-of-psychedelics

[Edited 6/12/18 10:33am]

Yes I've read separate studies relating to isolates in mushrooms, ketamine, and cannabis (CBD part) that appear to alleviate anxiety, depression.

Also, former opiate users with depleted number of glutamate receptors in prefrontal cortex, grew them back after CBD use. Which could have to do with CBD itself, or merely discontinuation of the opiates?

When you think P may have had this problem in the prefrontal cortex, amazing he could still put out great work. Maybe he had surfeit of those receptors to begin with. Quite probably, Mozart had mass excess of glutamate receptors if 'experts' (of whom i am one) are to be believed. Mozart, Prince have the same musical ability in my view.

That's so interesting. Do you know if there are studies comparing outcome for former opiate users with this depletion with vs. without subsequent CBD. I realize that some studies are pretty impractical to carry out.

May I ask about your work and where you come by your interest in this stuff? Totally understand if it's too nosy and you'd rather not get into it. As I mentioned before, I'm nosy. : ) I'm also kind of a fascinated geek when it comes to this stuff. Worked in a med school research clinic that studied schizophrenia, but only as a research assistant. Also in special education, as a research assistant. I'm very experienced at assisting!

Do you have an interest in Kay Jamison's work on musicians and artists?

I was really tickled when I read about Prince's reaction to some scenes in Amadeus. Would love to read more about how musical genius may be associated with surfeit of glutamate receptors.

rednblue said:

fortuneandserendipity said:

Yes I've read separate studies relating to isolates in mushrooms, ketamine, and cannabis (CBD part) that appear to alleviate anxiety, depression.

Also, former opiate users with depleted number of glutamate receptors in prefrontal cortex, grew them back after CBD use. Which could have to do with CBD itself, or merely discontinuation of the opiates?

When you think P may have had this problem in the prefrontal cortex, amazing he could still put out great work. Maybe he had surfeit of those receptors to begin with. Quite probably, Mozart had mass excess of glutamate receptors if 'experts' (of whom i am one) are to be believed. Mozart, Prince have the same musical ability in my view.

That's so interesting. Do you know if there are studies comparing outcome for former opiate users with this depletion with vs. without subsequent CBD. I realize that some studies are pretty impractical to carry out.

May I ask about your work and where you come by your interest in this stuff? Totally understand if it's too nosy and you'd rather not get into it. As I mentioned before, I'm nosy. : ) I'm also kind of a fascinated geek when it comes to this stuff. Worked in a med school research clinic that studied schizophrenia, but only as a research assistant. Also in special education, as a research assistant. I'm very experienced at assisting!

Do you have an interest in Kay Jamison's work on musicians and artists?

I was really tickled when I read about Prince's reaction to some scenes in Amadeus. Would love to read more about how musical genius may be associated with surfeit of glutamate receptors.

I wish I could divulge more but my job is top secret! In other words I work for the government. I'll try not to be overly cryptic in an annoying TrcikyChristopher style (the orger, not the film character)

The government liases closely with university research departments and they are very much involved in the R&D of these projects - and probably to a surprising degree, when you consider how much pharmaceutical companies invest in these trials, which is their turf as well. Think of universities as being less profit motive driven but with a very scientific approach while being particularly receptive to study experiments and their conclusions. Generally, we are not concerned in whether the experiments succeed or fail. New distinctions in knowledge are the name of the game. As long as the parameters are not set too broad that we can't draw defined conclusions, or too narrow as to limit the creative approach, then we eagerly await THE NEXT LAB RAT!!! Hope that's not vague

What Amadeus scenes are you referring to? I always found the character's laugh funny. It annoyed the upper classes and that's good enough for me

herb4 said:

rednblue said:

Herb4 -- Don't have time to write much, but I tend to wholeheartedly agree with your posts. Thank you for all of your posts!

You will probably be skeptical, but I think the issue here is partly semantics....

I never even met P, but I think he was complex. The vast majority of humans are highly flawed and also have a great deal of good in them. P was human. His associates were human.

Thanks.

Understatement of the year right there though in bold. Prince was one of the most complex individuals I can think to cite relating to the public circle. Hard to come up with other names actually. (Might make for a cool thread....hmmm).

Maybe Howard Hughes, Elon Musk, Salvador Dali...Donald Trump...I dunno. Prince is singularly unique to my mind and incredibly complex, which is a big part of what always drew me to him. Drawing blanks for comparisons though. As far as the music world goes, maybe Zappa comes close in terms of sheer "What-the-fuckedness?" I can think of people like Lady Gaga. Madonna and Marilyn Manson but much of their schtick seems calculated...

Prince was human, though he seemed other worldly and somehow above it all.

I see an awful lot of projection going on in these threads, especially as it relates to hero worship and idolization, which I think is where certain posters lose the thread and the narrative surrounding his death in ways that make it somehow personal to them. I can understand that tendency, but I don't think it's right and it seems to lead to several real die hard fans sort of starting with the conclusion first and extrapolating backwards from there, adjusting the facts to accomodate their vision, if that makes sense; cherry picking facts to suit a pre-determined narrative and fit their personal connection to the things from which they drew inspiration from an heroic artist in thier lives, Prince.

Otherwise, for whatever reason, they feel betrayed and determine that someone must be lying.

That also explains why so many members here shit on Prince's wives, his girlfriends, his family members and his friends in general. Or how certain fans positively LOATHE drug usage so they determine FIRST that someone they like as much as Prince would never use, ergo, something must be "fishy" about his death. Look at the borderline freak out level from some regarding the supposed discovery of freaky sex tapes or porn. Is that really so odd? Jesus Christ, my Father and his wife died within 6 months of each other and I found all sorts of shit. God help me if I die tomorrow or, more to the point, god help the person that has to sort through my shit.

Anything like that seems perfectly normal to me. The facts seem rather clear to me and always have. It'd be like finding out your Dad or married uncle had a secret gay porn stash or your son who committed suicide was a cross dresser who used coke. Most folks tend to have a public face and a private one, usually involving many masks. Some are made of lace, make up and gold chains strung from a hat. Some are built on lies. They're not all EVIL or bad. Most of them aren't. Some are. Like the priest that hides behind his collar and the power of his church to molest kids or the politicians who hide their donors to pass terrible legislation and start wars for profit.

People have more secrets than they let on and Prince didn't let on much so the idea that he may have a lot of them hardly shocks me.

Sorry for the *rant* but, lastly, and others have touched on it: It's important to remember that Prince had an INCREIBLY difficult childhood and hardly any safety net. People raised in these circumstances always invent ways to protect themselves, find ways to feel better, heal, often suffer with trust and are susceptible to extremes to the point that they are considerd "weird". By and large, I think Prince healed himself through music and his search for the one true faith. He was an idealist and, along with his work ethic, that took him very far. If one is to subscribe to the idea that "it's all there in his music", then what to make of songs like "Papa" and "Sister"? "Pheremone?"

He may have been abused.

During the ONA tour and The Rainbow Children, when he became more dogmatic and sometimes even divisive, it struck me that he was trying to convince HIMSELF of something, not us, using his friend, Larry Graham, as a vessel. I realized he had lost both of his parents, his son and his wife within a fairly short window of time. Speaking from experience, I can tell you that this makes people vulnerable and sort of "dig in" and "double down" with whatever got them through life to that point and brought them to the party in the first place - be it drug use, drinking, religion, exercise, writing...work...music...God. They increase it.

Painkillers.

He always kept working. I think he had to. For himself. That never wavered. He certainly didn't die in vain.

herb4, what you wrote here is amazing. Can't possibly write a reply that would do justice, but thank you, thank you, thank you for these thoughts! When I said I thought P wasn't "money hungry" or "power hungry," it's partly because the terms don't completely ring true to me due to a number of things, including the bolded above. Of course, the terms I used aren't specific/exact at all. "Financial-security" hungry or "control hungry" feel closer to right.

That said, you noted earlier that he indulged in some posh things. I think that's very true, and he seemed to enjoy some of these perks of fame. I'd also surely enjoy some perks. A lot of us would, of course, and we'd all enjoy different ones. For example, I can't stand limos. Never been in one, hope never to be in one. I realize there are practical considerations. Still, there's absolutely no need for anyone to drive around in a Hummer, and no need for some of the larger limos. Still, there are other things I'd definitely enjoy. Of course, the down side would undoubtedly outweigh any ease or access, a thousand times over.

Control and money definitely seemed areas of haunting/struggle for P, and extremely tough early experiences rarely leave a person. I felt sad when I read that P said he wouldn't wear certain kinds of clothes after having been poor. If you don't like those sorts of clothes in a style way, that's one thing...if they're just "not you" in that way. But I wanted to say...P, you clearly think poor people are worthy of help. You step up to help. So, since you honor them, it's odd you'd feel that way about dressing in more affordable, "poor" clothes. But then, I haven't experienced poverty. Much better to hear from someone who has.

Prince sometimes struck me as acting as if he was in "survivalist" mode, and it might be really hard not to live in that mode when a person has experienced such a rough childhood.


Been so touched by P's interactions with children.

Also, your idea of P trying to convince himself of something using LG as a vessel is fascinating. I come at this with bias, but it sure did sometimes feel to me a lot like trying to convince himself first and foremost.

What you said about complex people in the public sphere really makes me think, too. Purplerabbithole has mentioned Howard Hughes. Her comparing and contrasting of the two made some great points.

[Edited 6/12/18 16:59pm]

PennyPurple said:

herb4 said:

Or, more likely, he didn't the view it the same way as what most people think is a "drug user" since it was probably almost always prescribed by a doctor and, I have no reason to think otherwise, for a good long while he probably needed them and his use was legit.

I mean, no one thinks of a cancer patient on Oxy, Morphine, Fentanyl or even marijuana as a "drug user" in the traditional sense. Or a depressed or anxious person who uses Xanax or something like that. It's "medicine" in any case, just some of it in the darker corners of life is "self prescribed". Receiving it from a doctor via a prescription lends it an air of credibility, even if in some cases the medication itself is stronger and more dangerous than things you can get off the street (weed, XTC, LSD).

Also, yeah, it's been pointed out but the big difference between Petty and Prince is that Petty was open about his usage and his past problems so that whole thing is apples to oranges.

So much of the real failure I see in these threads to really understand and comprehend what happened with Prince seems to hang on certain people's total, rigid, dogmatic and inflexible binary view of "drugs" - Good and evil - and the automatic assumption that anyone who uses "drugs" or succumbs to addiction is weak, bad, lacking in moral fiber and...well..."dirty" or something. It's absurd but I think that's why some people bend over backwards looking for other (often crazy) reasons and explanations fro Prince's overdose.

I haven't seen that. I don't recall anybody here thinking or saying Prince was a no good junkie, or was weak or lacked moral fiber.

No, but I see a lot of people claiming that the public in general views him that way and a lot of people being knee-jerk defensive about it and very protective of his image. As if it's an either or scenario. You're not seriously suggesting that there aren't an awful lot of posters throughout these TEN threads that seem to have a vested interest in finding other reasons for Prince's death beyond the fact that he had a problem, are you? Or inferring that there's not a large contigent of "PRINCE WOULD NEVER DOOOO DRUGGGZ!!" types?

Because, if so, you better go back and start with thread #1.

I've read hundereds of posts that are all "yeah, the media just WANTS us to think Prince was another junkie rock star, but what's the REALLLLL truth, man? So many questions!!!" Prince accidentally overdosing is not a tarnish on his legacy, what he gave us or what he accomplished. Seems to me a lot of people think it is and can't accept it, for the reasons I outlined above.

rednblue said:

herb4 said:

Sorry for the *rant* but, lastly, and others have touched on it: It's important to remember that Prince had an INCREIBLY difficult childhood and hardly any safety net. People raised in these circumstances always invent ways to protect themselves, find ways to feel better, heal, often suffer with trust and are susceptible to extremes to the point that they are considerd "weird". By and large, I think Prince healed himself through music and his search for the one true faith. He was an idealist and, along with his work ethic, that took him very far. If one is to subscribe to the idea that "it's all there in his music", then what to make of songs like "Papa" and "Sister"? "Pheremone?"

He may have been abused.

herb4, what you wrote here is amazing. Can't possibly write a reply that would do justice, but thank you, thank you, thank you for these thoughts!

Prince sometimes struck me as acting as if he was in "survivalist" mode, and it might be really hard not to live in that mode when a person has experienced such a rough childhood.

Also, your idea of P trying to convince himself of something using LG as a vessel is fascinating. I come at this with bias, but it sure did sometimes feel to me a lot like trying to convince himself first and foremost.

What you said about complex people in the public sphere really makes me think, too. Purplerabbithole has mentioned Howard Hughes. Her comparing and contrasting of the two made some great points.

[Edited 6/12/18 16:59pm]

That's very kind of you to say. Thank you. I think you hit on it right there with the part I bolded. I'd say, all things being equal, he "survived" quite well, regardless of how it ended. He lived more life in 57 years than I could do in 500. "God' was ready for him, if you believe in that sort of thing.

When Larry came around, a LOT of people were taking giant shits on him, competely ignoring the fact that Prince LOVED him and that, however he did it, brought something into Prince's life - filled a void. I always felt the Larry hate was misguided and sort of a crappy attitude to take, but I see similar things happening still with everyone second guessing his friends, former lovers and family. I think Prince had a lot of voids but no one worked harder to fill them. Look what it gave us. More music than we can every experience in a lifetime.

Most of it is really fucking good too. Let it go, folks, and LISTEN.

I think if you add up all of the speculation, emotion, guesswork and feelings it's pretty clear what happened.

Fauxie said:

I think if you add up all of the speculation, emotion, guesswork and feelings it's pretty clear what happened.

Not so...he had high levels of Fentanyl in both his stomach and liver which suggests oral ingestion.

fortuneandserendipity said:

I know someone who to look at Frank Zappa, watch the videos, hear his music thought he must be on drugs!? But in actual fact he stayed well away from them. So assumptions can always be wrong.

[Edited 6/12/18 14:42pm]

that was what i always heard too, but a musician on facebook told me about a time Frank was considering signing him to his label, he said he went to a hotel room of Franks' and Frank had beer. Was it a big deal? no, not really, addiction still had frank with his smoking, and who knows, might have caused his cancer.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

disch said:

Did petty's family statement actually use the word "addiction" or similar? I'm not looking to argue or get "slapped" or all the things you guys are now taking such glee (what happened? you guys weren't always so laura-esque in your delight of "smacking down" and "telling off" fellow orgers; I used to enjoy and appreciate sharing ideas and info with both of you . But I digress.) I already mentioned that I think Petty's family situation was quite different, but again, I'm not looking for a fight.

LR/PTSD...sorry

So glad, disch, that you said something instead of curtailing your posts. Have appreciated your comments for a long time, though I've mostly lurked before the past month.

Also, cool of folks to apologize.

RJP1205 said:

rednblue said:

Well, I play P music for a big part of my day. Been sharing it with others as much as I can. Also been sharing with people how P's music, generosity, sense of fun, etc., have enriched so many lives.

Another thing you can do is make efforts to counteract stigma. Things in this situation would be different if deaths connected to stigmatized conditions such as addiction were treated with as little hysteria, and as much respect and compassion for the struggle, as attends deaths attributed to complications from conditions such as heart disease, Alzheimers, diabetes, cancer, etc.

[Edited 6/12/18 13:18pm]

I sing the praises of Prince anytime music is a topic...I make sure my son knows P didn't just sing...he wrote, played the instruments, worked hard, etc. Have also had many conversations with him about the dangers of taking anything into his body that is not food or drink (he's only 10). Opioids are killing so many young people in our area...the obits are horrible! And I work at the Dept. Of Social Services and the kids orphaned by these dying parents is a real crisis. But I said I felt guilty because I've followed this thread for so long and I thought what would P do if this was his idol who OD'd? Probably not disect all the info to death. He would love them for all the good they did and let the rest go.

Right - the focus should be his music, talent and legacy. The Opioid addiction crisis is huge, and contributing to thousands of deaths in this country. There have been so many comments about Prince detesting the use of drugs - and by all accounts, he did detest drugs, and often sang about the issue. It is important to remember that he spoke and sang against recreational drug use, ie: the use of a drug to create a mind-altered state. During the LoveSexy tour he would say, "the reason my words are so clear is because there's no smack in my brain". Prince did not use the Opioids for recreational or pleasure use or to get high. He took them specifically to reduce hip pain, and/or any other bodily pain he was experiencing - as many people do or have done. He was a victim of the extremely addictive component of these meds.

herb4 said:

purplerabbithole said:

I think Prince did detest drug usage. That's why it was such a secret. he was ashamed.

Or, more likely, he didn't the view it the same way as what most people think is a "drug user" since it was probably almost always prescribed by a doctor and, I have no reason to think otherwise, for a good long while he probably needed them and his use was legit.

I mean, no one thinks of a cancer patient on Oxy, Morphine, Fentanyl or even marijuana as a "drug user" in the traditional sense. Or a depressed or anxious person who uses Xanax or something like that. It's "medicine" in any case, just some of it in the darker corners of life is "self prescribed". Receiving it from a doctor via a prescription lends it an air of credibility, even if in some cases the medication itself is stronger and more dangerous than things you can get off the street (weed, XTC, LSD).

Also, yeah, it's been pointed out but the big difference between Petty and Prince is that Petty was open about his usage and his past problems so that whole thing is apples to oranges.

So much of the real failure I see in these threads to really understand and comprehend what happened with Prince seems to hang on certain people's total, rigid, dogmatic and inflexible binary view of "drugs" - Good and evil - and the automatic assumption that anyone who uses "drugs" or succumbs to addiction is weak, bad, lacking in moral fiber and...well..."dirty" or something. It's absurd but I think that's why some people bend over backwards looking for other (often crazy) reasons and explanations fro Prince's overdose.

Exactly. I responded to RJP1205 before I saw your post. Prince was using these drugs as a medication to decrease physical pain, and he was not using them for recreational purposes. The privacy factor ties in with his inability to show weakness or vulnerability in any way, including his physical condition.

*

I watched a video awhile back of one of his 2000 shows (I think it was the last time he performed Darling Nikki) where he started doing multiple splits - going from side to side, over and over again. I can't remember how many he did, but probably at least 10. On the last split, as he came up he teeterd back and forth, almost losing his balance. I cringed when I saw that, knowing what we know now. I'm sure it went unnoticed back then, but now it is very telling. He went above and beyond in order to give his audience a better show. That, to me, is what we should be talking about, along with all of the incredible music he gave us.

violetcrush said:

herb4 said:

Or, more likely, he didn't the view it the same way as what most people think is a "drug user" since it was probably almost always prescribed by a doctor and, I have no reason to think otherwise, for a good long while he probably needed them and his use was legit.

I mean, no one thinks of a cancer patient on Oxy, Morphine, Fentanyl or even marijuana as a "drug user" in the traditional sense. Or a depressed or anxious person who uses Xanax or something like that. It's "medicine" in any case, just some of it in the darker corners of life is "self prescribed". Receiving it from a doctor via a prescription lends it an air of credibility, even if in some cases the medication itself is stronger and more dangerous than things you can get off the street (weed, XTC, LSD).

Also, yeah, it's been pointed out but the big difference between Petty and Prince is that Petty was open about his usage and his past problems so that whole thing is apples to oranges.

So much of the real failure I see in these threads to really understand and comprehend what happened with Prince seems to hang on certain people's total, rigid, dogmatic and inflexible binary view of "drugs" - Good and evil - and the automatic assumption that anyone who uses "drugs" or succumbs to addiction is weak, bad, lacking in moral fiber and...well..."dirty" or something. It's absurd but I think that's why some people bend over backwards looking for other (often crazy) reasons and explanations fro Prince's overdose.

Exactly. I responded to RJP1205 before I saw your post. Prince was using these drugs as a medication to decrease physical pain, and he was not using them for recreational purposes. The privacy factor ties in with his inability to show weakness or vulnerability in any way, including his physical condition.

*

I watched a video awhile back of one of his 2000 shows (I think it was the last time he performed Darling Nikki) where he started doing multiple splits - going from side to side, over and over again. I can't remember how many he did, but probably at least 10. On the last split, as he came up he teeterd back and forth, almost losing his balance. I cringed when I saw that, knowing what we know now. I'm sure it went unnoticed back then, but now it is very telling. He went above and beyond in order to give his audience a better show. That, to me, is what we should be talking about, along with all of the incredible music he gave us.

Yes to all of that....

Thank you ..

I think this thread is DONE and Dusted now...Mods cant we shut it down....??????????

We don't know all the reasons why he took opioids, and I for one am not not going to pretend that I do have this personal insight. I don't. He kept whatever he was dealing with private from me and people like me. I know him from his public persona and that's pretty much it.

-

I'm also not going to take song lyrics from his 20s as some proclamation of his belief system and actions that he carried through every day of his whole life, nor would I assume that Prince acted out everything he preached (we all have beliefs that don't match our behavior. I believe everyone should exercise daily and would encourage people to do that. Do I? No. And I make all kinds of justifications for that).

-

We've had so many debates on this site about the use of the term "recreational." My understading is that it is a confusing and misleading term for many people who struggle with addiction, who often have a complex web of needs, some of which may be physical and others are emotional/psychological. The "pleasure" someone feels from "getting high" is likely intertwined to relief psychological and emotional issues, particularly in someone who reaches the point of addiction.

-

And addiction itself causes its own set of needs -- it's not about partying and fun, but avoiding the debilitating withdrawal symptoms that can come on when you stop taking the drugs (and we know those were a concern to prince as he brought the issue up with Dr S and Dr S prescribed him medication specifically to alleviate opioid withdrawal symptoms).

-

I know that we keep drifting back to simplistic and reductive views of drug use and addiction -- that that people take drugs either for physical pain relief OR for "recreation" and the "fun" of "getting high," and every drug user or addicted person fits into one group or the other. Fortunately I haven't struggled with addiction personally but I've read a lot about it and know that this simplistic viewpoint doesn't really described most addicted people's actual, complicated experience.

violetcrush said:

RJP1205 said:

rednblue said: I sing the praises of Prince anytime music is a topic...I make sure my son knows P didn't just sing...he wrote, played the instruments, worked hard, etc. Have also had many conversations with him about the dangers of taking anything into his body that is not food or drink (he's only 10). Opioids are killing so many young people in our area...the obits are horrible! And I work at the Dept. Of Social Services and the kids orphaned by these dying parents is a real crisis. But I said I felt guilty because I've followed this thread for so long and I thought what would P do if this was his idol who OD'd? Probably not disect all the info to death. He would love them for all the good they did and let the rest go.

Right - the focus should be his music, talent and legacy. The Opioid addiction crisis is huge, and contributing to thousands of deaths in this country. There have been so many comments about Prince detesting the use of drugs - and by all accounts, he did detest drugs, and often sang about the issue. It is important to remember that he spoke and sang against recreational drug use, ie: the use of a drug to create a mind-altered state. During the LoveSexy tour he would say, "the reason my words are so clear is because there's no smack in my brain". Prince did not use the Opioids for recreational or pleasure use or to get high. He took them specifically to reduce hip pain, and/or any other bodily pain he was experiencing - as many people do or have done. He was a victim of the extremely addictive component of these meds.

[Edited 6/13/18 6:43am]

Lovejunky said:

Yes to all of that....

Thank you ..

I think this thread is DONE and Dusted now...Mods cant we shut it down....??????????

So you think it's done and want it shut down. It's far from done. You think shutting down the thread will make it go away?

You know it always angers me when someone comes on a thread and wants it shut down, just because they don't like the discusssion. Don't like it, don't read it.