purplerabbithole said:

BillS said:

If you are a kid and your parents smoke but hide it from you and discourage you from smoking, it does't mean they are hypocrites. It means they are looking out for you and have a nicotine addiction. Plain and simple.

rogifan said:

purplerabbithole said:

Good point. I do think PRince tried to live clean but his pain (physically especially) was probably just too much. I am sure he was ashamed of himself (denial to one's self and others usually indicates that.) The man certainly didnt glamourize the notion of drugs.

Exactly. We know how he died and that he had a problem but it doesn’t mean his entire life revolve around pills or that he was a hypocrite.

rogifan said:

BillS said:

Personally I am able to separate out Prince the talented genius, from Prince the human being who had his share of strengths and struggles. The fact that he was opiate dependent at the end of his life doesn't change that for me. The likelihood that there were coke fueled marathons as well as possible opiate abuse at times also doesn't change things for me. I have to say that if it comes as a surprise to you (PURPLEIZED 3121) that Prince probably used significnat amounts of recreational drugs, I think you were/are being naive.

However, you (PURPLEIZED 3121) have the right to feel however you want. If he was opiate dependent and possibly abused drugs and this tarnished your memories of Prince so be it. I feel sad that you would let this new reality for you negatively change how you feel about Prince. I am not going to to tell you not to feel that way. I will suggest that you consider finding a way to accept that Prince was a flawed human being (like the rest of us) and give him and his memory grace.

[Edited 5/13/18 14:09pm]

Where is the evidence he used a significant amount of recreational drugs?

Its amazing that after all these years not a single person has come forward with a story

about

that one night they shared a purple spliff with Prince..

I mean that would be a Gold mine right there...

Instead we have the exact opposite..

People are shocked by his opiat addiction because they knew him to be that "Clean Living Guy"

and these same people are FULL of Compassion,

knowing very well that if he had to resort to Opiates

he had to have been suffering greatly....

I totally get why Prince was so adamant about his Privacy...

not becasue he had anything to HIDE

rather ,because so many people were ready to Crucify him at any given moment...

Just look at the Judgement we see coming from some people on this thread...

StopIt said:

God, stop with this pointless labelling please.

All geniuses are on another tier in obvious ways, we get it.

grantevans said:

On the Spectrum is different to autistic. High Achieving Asperger, perhaps.

Reading... the posting, Prince was Just that "Prince........

I think to that, we can't add nor take away, in my opinon, the (world) couldn't figure him out then

& can't now, so we can use all kinds words, labels, descriptions, yet in ( the span) of uncomparable

time... the only "truest" is that ....he was +Prince & will always be Prince.

I'm Just thankful God, Made him... and I was able to share in that while, this level of earth and life time span allowed, No Matter whats shown or not shown ... God is the only one who knows full "TRUTH"

And with that, only time has, real truth,

Will always have love for the Man Named +Prince

who did wrestled the storms & waves of life most, will never probably understand, due to being such aWpublic figure, but I have come to respect even more.

some humans are madeto fly above; clouds

spacedolphin said:

Better

Feelin That! : )

BillS said:

OperatingThetan said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said: Other than your obvious entitlement, you seem to be under the impression that Prince's drug 'abuse' produced highs that fuelled or allowed for his peaks of creativity. There is no evidence of that whatsoever. Pain medication doesn't really produce the kind of euphoria typical of some illegal drugs and it's arguable if even they genuinely boost creativity and performance. Aside from numbing pain, there are a number of side-effects opioids carry that are detrimental to both creativity and performance. These are medications to soothe chronic pain, not enhancement drugs. Becoming dependent on medication doesn't necessarily indicate a person isn't spiritual either. * [Edited 5/13/18 13:15pm]

Personally I am able to separate out Prince the talented genius, from Prince the human being who had his share of strengths and struggles. The fact that he was opiate dependent at the end of his life doesn't change that for me. The likelihood that there were coke fueled marathons as well as possible opiate abuse at times also doesn't change things for me. I have to say that if it comes as a surprise to you (PURPLEIZED 3121) that Prince probably used significnat amounts of recreational drugs, I think you were/are being naive.

However, you (PURPLEIZED 3121) have the right to feel however you want. If he was opiate dependent and possibly abused drugs and this tarnished your memories of Prince so be it. I feel sad that you would let this new reality for you negatively change how you feel about Prince. I am not going to to tell you not to feel that way. I will suggest that you consider finding a way to accept that Prince was a flawed human being (like the rest of us) and give him and his memory grace.

[Edited 5/13/18 14:09pm]

really appreciate your balanced & fair reply. Horrified to think for 1 moment that he may have dabbled with any Class A's. So many of my fave artist were heavy into drugs..but non of it was a surprise, JB, Ray Charles, Bowie etc. I guess i am still stuck in the anger stage of grief...it will pass in time, the love & admiration of his talent is there..i just want the respect to return.

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

BillS said:

Personally I am able to separate out Prince the talented genius, from Prince the human being who had his share of strengths and struggles. The fact that he was opiate dependent at the end of his life doesn't change that for me. The likelihood that there were coke fueled marathons as well as possible opiate abuse at times also doesn't change things for me. I have to say that if it comes as a surprise to you (PURPLEIZED 3121) that Prince probably used significnat amounts of recreational drugs, I think you were/are being naive.

However, you (PURPLEIZED 3121) have the right to feel however you want. If he was opiate dependent and possibly abused drugs and this tarnished your memories of Prince so be it. I feel sad that you would let this new reality for you negatively change how you feel about Prince. I am not going to to tell you not to feel that way. I will suggest that you consider finding a way to accept that Prince was a flawed human being (like the rest of us) and give him and his memory grace.

[Edited 5/13/18 14:09pm]

really appreciate your balanced & fair reply. Horrified to think for 1 moment that he may have dabbled with any Class A's. So many of my fave artist were heavy into drugs..but non of it was a surprise, JB, Ray Charles, Bowie etc. I guess i am still stuck in the anger stage of grief...it will pass in time, the love & admiration of his talent is there..i just want the respect to return.

I think you started this thread so you could vent being mad at Prince for dying the way he did. That's why you set it up as an either/or with better/worse as the only answers. Instead, you got a lot of varied and thoughtful replies on what turned into an interesting thread. If he died in an accident the same week, your respect for him would be intact?

Now, because of how he died, you want the respect to return. It very well may, but the person who has to grow is you. Prince can't help you with that. Figure out what else the word respect means other than someone disappointing YOU.

It's confusing to me that a fan's appreciation for a celebrity/artist's work could be dimished because that artist made choices in their personal life that are different than the ones a fan would make in their own life, or that run counter to the fan's idea of how people "should be."

-

I'm not talking about a celebrity that does terrible things to other people -- that are, say, racist, sexist or exploitative -- but things that impact (and perhaps ultimately harm) the celebrities own life.

-

I don't pretend to completely understand what life is like for a huge celebrity like Prince. He had pressures, stresses and experiences that are really different than mine. But I imagine that any celebrity finds ways (good and bad) to deal with their unique situation, and I don't feel it's my place to sit in judgment.

-

I just wish the world were organized in such a way that EVERYONE felt they had the ability and opporunity to make choices that would allow them to live their fullest, healthiest, happiest, most valued life. I hope that I'm helping to make the world more that way.

poppys said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

really appreciate your balanced & fair reply. Horrified to think for 1 moment that he may have dabbled with any Class A's. So many of my fave artist were heavy into drugs..but non of it was a surprise, JB, Ray Charles, Bowie etc. I guess i am still stuck in the anger stage of grief...it will pass in time, the love & admiration of his talent is there..i just want the respect to return.

I think you started this thread so you could vent being mad at Prince for dying the way he did. That's why you set it up as an either/or with better/worse as the only answers. Instead, you got a lot of varied and thoughtful replies on what turned into an interesting thread. If he died in an accident the same week, your respect for him would be intact?

Now, because of how he died, you want the respect to return. It very well may, but the person who has to grow is you. Prince can't help you with that. Figure out what else the word respect means other than someone disappointing YOU.

poppys said:

PURPLEIZED3121 said:

really appreciate your balanced & fair reply. Horrified to think for 1 moment that he may have dabbled with any Class A's. So many of my fave artist were heavy into drugs..but non of it was a surprise, JB, Ray Charles, Bowie etc. I guess i am still stuck in the anger stage of grief...it will pass in time, the love & admiration of his talent is there..i just want the respect to return.

I think you started this thread so you could vent being mad at Prince for dying the way he did. That's why you set it up as an either/or with better/worse as the only answers. Instead, you got a lot of varied and thoughtful replies on what turned into an interesting thread. If he died in an accident the same week, your respect for him would be intact?

Now, because of how he died, you want the respect to return. It very well may, but the person who has to grow is you. Prince can't help you with that. Figure out what else the word respect means other than someone disappointing YOU.

disappointed that you would view me starting thread with that as a motive. For clarity it came through discussions with fellow fans who were / are so confused & upset about all this info coming out. On a personal note my hope that the respect will return comes from 1] my passionate hate of drugs & 2] hypocrisy . I have no need to 'grow' as you put it...it is a word that I wish Prince would have invested more into when it came to his own personal care.

PURLPEIZED3121 - You phrased your own post. It is an either/or and your perception/love has clearly changed for the worse. You did not address any of my other comments. Wishing on Prince for comfort, a person you never knew. My comment on growth is valid whether you understand it (yet) or not. Right now you want/need to feel hurt and I get that.

I was a loved accident, born a decade after my closest sibling. My parents were older, especially for the 1950s. One time I told my mom I couldn't handle it if she died. She said, "when I die, I will teach you about death". That has proven true.

Death is not always what you think it will be. If you stay on the planet, you will grow whether you want to or not.

[Edited 5/14/18 12:56pm]

poppys said:

I was a loved accident, born a decade after my closest sibling. My parents were older, especially for the 1950s. One time I told my mom I couldn't handle it if she died. She said, "when I die, I will teach you about death". That has proven true.

[Edited 5/14/18 12:56pm]

I have nothing to say about the larger topic at this point--I just wanted to note the bolded portion above. That's a really remarkable thing to say. I'm sure it was quite a thing to have said to you.

Beautiful, really. I don't know another thing about her, but that certainly makes your mom seem pretty impressive to me.

EddieC said:

poppys said:

I was a loved accident, born a decade after my closest sibling. My parents were older, especially for the 1950s. One time I told my mom I couldn't handle it if she died. She said, "when I die, I will teach you about death". That has proven true.

I have nothing to say about the larger topic at this point--I just wanted to note the bolded portion above. That's a really remarkable thing to say. I'm sure it was quite a thing to have said to you.

Beautiful, really. I don't know another thing about her, but that certainly makes your mom seem pretty impressive to me.

Thank you EddieC. She was lovely, fun, and really remarkable, she sparkled. That phrase has been very valuable over the years. Even just writing it down here and then reading your comment made me notice the teaching part anew - she was an educator, art teacher.

The only perceoption that has changed for me is that I am now more positive than ever of the sheer lack of common sense, intelligence and sheepish nature of most people.

Nothing has really changed after it had already changed while he was alive.

My feelings about his work are pretty much the same. His best period was 1979-1988. The only albums I still isten to in full after that period are the Symbol Album, Gold Experience, Come, 3121, Planet Earth and Art Official Age. The rest of the albums I made my own "favorites" discs by just keeping the songs I actually like. Prince severely watered down his recording legacy with way too much mediocrity so I'm skeptical about what's really in the vault. I used to be a fanatic but Prince lost me right around the time of Emancipation when that special somethin' somethin'- that excitement about every new Prince track- was gone when he delivered a 36 song album that should have been a single album. I survived the absolutely heinously awful "Graffitti Bridge" movie. Still on board for a few more years but with The Vault, Emancipation, Newpowersoul, half of Crystal Ball it was just too much "meh". Quality control out the window. I wish he'd never left Warner Bros. There were great moments later on for sure but for me the mystery, that thrill I always felt watching the Sign O The Times novie and listening to the album over and over was gone. I guess his assholery towards his fanbase didn't help but I don't expect my favorite artists to be my favorite people.

I still consider myself a Prince fan but my expectations are very low about what's coming next.

[Edited 5/16/18 10:16am]

leadline said:

The only perceoption that has changed for me is that I am now more positive than ever of the sheer lack of common sense, intelligence and sheepish nature of most people.

Aren't you the one who keeps pushing the psychic murder theory business?

[Edited 5/18/18 22:59pm]

Mumio said:

leadline said:

The only perceoption that has changed for me is that I am now more positive than ever of the sheer lack of common sense, intelligence and sheepish nature of most people.

Aren't you the one who keeps pushing the psychic murder theory business?

My perception/love of Prince has changed for the better since he died for a number of reasons. One that stands out to me in light of the Me Too movement is the overwhelmingly positive opinion that people who knew Prince had of him. Furthermore, of the hundreds of women that he worked with and the dozens that he loved and befriended, not one of them has accused him of any sexual harrassment or sexual misconduct. Sinead O'Connor has accused him of getting into a fight with her, and I do not want to dismiss what she says, but she also has a history of over-the-top, attention seeking behavior (e.g., wrongfully accusing Arsenio Hall of providing Prince with drugs, ripping up a photo of Pope John Paul II).

.

Women like Lala Escarzega (on her Facebook and Instagram accounts), Susan Rogers (in Duane Tudahl's book Prince and the Purple Rain Era Studio Sessions: 1983 and 1984), and Misty Copeland (http://ew.com/article/2016/07/03/prince-misty-copeland/), among many others, have spoken about how he pushed his female colleagues to be their best and treated women with respect.

206Michelle said:

My perception/love of Prince has changed for the better since he died for a number of reasons. One that stands out to me in light of the Me Too movement is the overwhelmingly positive opinion that people who knew Prince had of him. Furthermore, of the hundreds of women that he worked with and the dozens that he loved and befriended, not one of them has accused him of any sexual harrassment or sexual misconduct. Sinead O'Connor has accused him of getting into a fight with her, and I do not want to dismiss what she says, but she also has a history of over-the-top, attention seeking behavior (e.g., wrongfully accusing Arsenio Hall of providing Prince with drugs, ripping up a photo of Pope John Paul II).

.

Women like Lala Escarzega (on her Facebook and Instagram accounts), Susan Rogers (in Duane Tudahl's book Prince and the Purple Rain Era Studio Sessions: 1983 and 1984), and Misty Copeland (http://ew.com/article/2016/07/03/prince-misty-copeland/), among many others, have spoken about how he pushed his female colleagues to be their best and treated women with respect.

I think there is a wide spectrum of feelings right now and we shouldn’t de-legitimatize any of them from anyone. People feel what they feel; no one has the right to criticize someone else’s feelings. Feelings and opinions may change and grow over time but for right now, opinions are what they are.

.

The tread asks the question of a person’s perception of P since he died, and no one sharing his or her perception should be criticized.

.

I too see him as hypocritical at this point in time. I interpret all the talking in riddles (train of thought all over the place), no recording at interviews (not wanting to be directly quoted), and sunglasses (hiding his eyes) as cover-ups for drug use going back for years. Am I right or wrong? Doesn’t matter, it’s what I feel and think at this moment in time.

.

Will I change my opinion of him (musically he is still the GOAT), maybe… who knows? But how I feel and my opinions are just as real and legitimate as anyone else’s.

.

Michele, I love all your posts, however I disagree with your last post to a degree. Just because a man is not an abuser of women is not an attribute in my view, it is what we should expect from all men. Comparing him to criminals (yes, sexual abuse is a crime) and saying, ‘see he didn’t do that’ is not a quality that should be specifically recognized, it should be expected.

.

JMHO

with kind regards, DD55

I think you might be missing michelle's point. Prince had relationships with his female musicians and employees. The fact that no harassment charges were ever discovered (no pay-offs, no hidden history like Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, no complaints in writing, no legit lawsuits etc) shows that even when professional and personal overlapped, he was basically a gentleman. This could have been a very murky area considering. P connected to people on a personal level almost primarily through his work and music. In the current setting and with a certain type of behavior, this tendency of his could have been like him swimming in some murky waters. After all, a male boss or powerful figure doesn't necessarily have to say "Hey, if you don't screw me, you will be fired" for a woman in certain climates to assume that was the case. I am relieved as well. About six months ago, I listened to a old female manager of his basically state the same thing. She brought it up herself -- and called him a gentleman. Was he faithful or perfect boyfriend? NOpe. Was he careful about how he was conducting himself?--it sounds like it. I think a lot of these women (whose involvement with him went beyond professional) wanted the music, the career, AND THE MAN, felt elevated or even emboldened for a while, and are unashamed of their involvement (even if they wished he had been more faithful or it hadn't ended the way it had.)

As for P's hypocricy I never took interviews with celebrities that seriously. I think there are nuggets of truth in those that you can filter out, but interviews still tend to be cryptic anyhow. To me, Prince was at his most natural and believable when he was just joking around during interviews or pondering issues (not when he was definitive about anything.)

DD55 said:

206Michelle said:

My perception/love of Prince has changed for the better since he died for a number of reasons. One that stands out to me in light of the Me Too movement is the overwhelmingly positive opinion that people who knew Prince had of him. Furthermore, of the hundreds of women that he worked with and the dozens that he loved and befriended, not one of them has accused him of any sexual harrassment or sexual misconduct. Sinead O'Connor has accused him of getting into a fight with her, and I do not want to dismiss what she says, but she also has a history of over-the-top, attention seeking behavior (e.g., wrongfully accusing Arsenio Hall of providing Prince with drugs, ripping up a photo of Pope John Paul II).

.

Women like Lala Escarzega (on her Facebook and Instagram accounts), Susan Rogers (in Duane Tudahl's book Prince and the Purple Rain Era Studio Sessions: 1983 and 1984), and Misty Copeland (http://ew.com/article/2016/07/03/prince-misty-copeland/), among many others, have spoken about how he pushed his female colleagues to be their best and treated women with respect.

I think there is a wide spectrum of feelings right now and we shouldn’t de-legitimatize any of them from anyone. People feel what they feel; no one has the right to criticize someone else’s feelings. Feelings and opinions may change and grow over time but for right now, opinions are what they are.

.

The tread asks the question of a person’s perception of P since he died, and no one sharing his or her perception should be criticized.

.

I too see him as hypocritical at this point in time. I interpret all the talking in riddles (train of thought all over the place), no recording at interviews (not wanting to be directly quoted), and sunglasses (hiding his eyes) as cover-ups for drug use going back for years. Am I right or wrong? Doesn’t matter, it’s what I feel and think at this moment in time.

.

Will I change my opinion of him (musically he is still the GOAT), maybe… who knows? But how I feel and my opinions are just as real and legitimate as anyone else’s.

.

Michele, I love all your posts, however I disagree with your last post to a degree. Just because a man is not an abuser of women is not an attribute in my view, it is what we should expect from all men. Comparing him to criminals (yes, sexual abuse is a crime) and saying, ‘see he didn’t do that’ is not a quality that should be specifically recognized, it should be expected.

.

JMHO

with kind regards, DD55

[Edited 5/19/18 10:55am]

purplerabbithole said:

I think you might be missing michelle's point. Prince had relationships with his female musicians and employees. The fact that no harassment charges were ever discovered (no pay-offs, no hidden history like Cosby or Harvey Weinstein, no complaints in writing, no legit lawsuits etc) shows that even when professional and personal overlapped, he was basically a gentleman. This could have been a very murky area considering. P connected to people on a personal level almost primarily through his work and music. In the current setting and with a certain type of behavior, this tendency of his could have been like him swimming in some murky waters. After all, a male boss or powerful figure doesn't necessarily have to say "Hey, if you don't screw me, you will be fired" for a woman in certain climates to assume that was the case. I am relieved as well. About six months ago, I listened to a old female manager of his basically state the same thing. She brought it up herself -- and called him a gentleman. Was he faithful or perfect boyfriend? NOpe. Was he careful about how he was conducting himself?--it sounds like it. I think a lot of these women (whose involvement with him went beyond professional) wanted the music, the career, AND THE MAN, felt elevated or even emboldened for a while, and are unashamed of their involvement (even if they wished he had been more faithful or it hadn't ended the way it had.)

As for P's hypocricy I never took interviews with celebrities that seriously. I think there are nuggets of truth in those that you can filter out, but interviews still tend to be cryptic anyhow. To me, Prince was at his most natural and believable when he was just joking around during interviews or pondering issues (not when he was definitive about anything.)

DD55 said:

I think there is a wide spectrum of feelings right now and we shouldn’t de-legitimatize any of them from anyone. People feel what they feel; no one has the right to criticize someone else’s feelings. Feelings and opinions may change and grow over time but for right now, opinions are what they are.

.

The tread asks the question of a person’s perception of P since he died, and no one sharing his or her perception should be criticized.

.

I too see him as hypocritical at this point in time. I interpret all the talking in riddles (train of thought all over the place), no recording at interviews (not wanting to be directly quoted), and sunglasses (hiding his eyes) as cover-ups for drug use going back for years. Am I right or wrong? Doesn’t matter, it’s what I feel and think at this moment in time.

.

Will I change my opinion of him (musically he is still the GOAT), maybe… who knows? But how I feel and my opinions are just as real and legitimate as anyone else’s.

.

Michele, I love all your posts, however I disagree with your last post to a degree. Just because a man is not an abuser of women is not an attribute in my view, it is what we should expect from all men. Comparing him to criminals (yes, sexual abuse is a crime) and saying, ‘see he didn’t do that’ is not a quality that should be specifically recognized, it should be expected.

.

JMHO

with kind regards, DD55

[Edited 5/19/18 10:55am]

DD55,

I agree that respecting women should be expected, of course.

.

Unfortunately, for decades or even longer, it has been acceptable to harrass and abuse women in many industries, including the entertainment industry. So much media coverage has focused on the powerful men who are abusive or harrassing, and rightfully so because the harrassment and abuse of women needs to be reprimanded and there need to be more penalties for the harrassers/abusers as well as tougher policies to protect women from harrassment/abuse. But instead of focusing only on the men exhibiting the abuse/harrassment, there should also be focus on the men who demonstrate respectful behavior toward women. In other words, the desireable behavior should receive as much, and ideally more, attention than the undesireable behavior. This is based upon well-establish principles of behavior modification from the field of behavioral psychology (e.g., applied behavior analysis) that the use of positive reinforcement and teaching of desired replacement behaviors is the most effective means of creating behavior change. It is also very important to have clear expectations and/or teach desired replacement behaviors and reinforce/reward those who are exhibiting the desired/expected behaviors. The reason for this is that teaching appropriate skills/behaviors (e.g., with training, clear policies, or therapy, among other methods) and reinforcing those appropriate behaviors with positive reinforcement is, generally speaking, a better way to change behavior than is punishment.

.

Given that sexual harrassment has been rampant in the entertainment industry for decades, I feel that Prince's respect for women is worthy of praise and recognition because it can serve as a model for others. As purplerabbithole noted, Prince's clean record with regard to his behavior with women in personal and professional contexts is an indicator that he was a gentleman who treated women with respect.

.

It is also worth noting that Prince was very progressive in his inclusion of women in his bands and on his records--as musicians who played a variety of instruments, as engineers, as dancers, and singers, among other roles. So many major musicians/bands have been male only, including Elton John, The Beatles, Def Leppard, Pink Floyd, Bruno Mars and the Hooligans, The Rolling Stones, and Earth Wind & Fire. This is nothing against these bands, and I am a fan of many of them, but they are just examples of women being underrepresented as musicians in major bands. On the other hand, the Boss and his E Street Band, Fleetwood Mac, and Prince and his bands are examples of bands that have at least one female member.

.

.

Motivation techniques for positive reinforcement: A review

Kamery, Rob H. Allied Academies International Conference. Academy of Legal, Ethical and Regulatory Issues. Proceedings; Arden Vol. 8, Iss. 2, (2004): 91-96.

.

The evolution of discipline practices: School-wide positive behavior supports

I adore and think the world of Prince. I always have. My perception is the same.

I agree with above comments about treatment of women. Prince was human, of course, and I will say that despite his belief in respecting the music, his promotion of women was sometimes influenced by conventional standards of beauty in a way it wasn't with men.

I think this was very unfortunate for some extremely talented and hard working women. As a boss/producer, he worked relatively not so hard for them.

rednblue said:

Krystalkisses said:

rednblue said:

I adore and think the world of Prince. I always have. My perception is the same.

I agree with above comments about treatment of women. Prince was human, of course, and I will say that despite his belief in respecting the music, his promotion of women was sometimes influenced by conventional standards of beauty in a way it wasn't with men.

I think this was very unfortunate for some extremely talented and hard working women. As a boss/producer, he worked relatively not so hard for them.

I think Music was his way of courting women he liked.

Agreed. : )

It's just that, at times, it contributed to the nonprogressive side of Paisley as a workplace for women. P said you have to respect the music, but the end result of that particular behavior worked against some really talented and hard working female musicians.

In some ways you are right; in some ways, he did well. NO offense to Shelby and Liv, they aren't great beauties. And he seemed to be interested in helping them. In the old days, he could have done more for Boni and Rosie, but he still did more than most people in the industry did. He did hire the lovely Wendy and Lisa (but their talents were always more important to most people) His offenses are minor compared to the general ignoring of mid-aged, non svelte, and non beautiful artists. FOr every model he had working as an assistant (aspiring models need to work too. obvously), he had a susan rogers. For every Candy Dulfer (with her tradional Barbie looks but extreme ability) , he had a Kat Dyson (who is not a mainstream beauty but also quite talented) working for him. He promoted the beauties a bit more (possibly because he had a crush on some of them but also possibly because he knew the game was rigged toward the beauties. It would have been nice if he had fought against that a bit more. I guess putting Chaka on his label (Chaka was cute, but not a model-like looker) was a step in the right direction. He hit and miss but ultimately as he got older, the looks and talent were of equal importance. No more Carmen Electra attempting to sing/rap. OKay, Damaris isn't super talented, but he wasn't dating her and she was just hired to work on stage with him. He is a man...a pretty face will get his attention but at least most of the ladies he promoted later in life were actually talented at what they set out to do. Another thought--in some ways, aspiring youngfemale musicians know the score. Many of them keep themselves in the best shape they can and work on their physical image. The ThirdEyeGirl women were attractive (Hannah being probably the prettiest) but they were working musicians to some degree before Prince and he never played up their sexuality or beauty (and they were not romantic interests). But Prince did seem to like to brag about or remind people about or work with women like Mavis Staples and Sharon JOnes.

rednblue said:

Krystalkisses said:

rednblue said: I think Music was his way of courting women he liked.

Agreed. : )

It's just that, at times, it contributed to the nonprogressive side of Paisley as a workplace for women. P said you have to respect the music, but the end result of that particular behavior worked against some really talented and hard working female musicians.

[Edited 5/20/18 18:27pm]

purplerabbithole said:

In some ways you are right; in some ways, he did well. NO offense to Shelby and Liv, they aren't great beauties. And he seemed to be interested in helping them. In the old days, he could have done more for Boni and Rosie, but he still did more than most people in the industry did. He did hire the lovely Wendy and Lisa (but their talents were always more important to most people) His offenses are minor compared to the general ignoring of mid-aged, non svelte, and non beautiful artists. FOr every model he had working as an assistant (aspiring models need to work too. obvously), he had a susan rogers. For every Candy Dulfer (with her tradional Barbie looks but extreme ability) , he had a Kat Dyson (who is not a mainstream beauty but also quite talented) working for him. He promoted the beauties a bit more (possibly because he had a crush on some of them but also possibly because he knew the game was rigged toward the beauties. It would have been nice if he had fought against that a bit more. I guess putting Chaka on his label (Chaka was cute, but not a model-like looker) was a step in the right direction. He hit and miss but ultimately as he got older, the looks and talent were of equal importance. No more Carmen Electra attempting to sing/rap. OKay, Damaris isn't super talented, but he wasn't dating her and she was just hired to work on stage with him. He is a man...a pretty face will get his attention but at least most of the ladies he promoted later in life were actually talented at what they set out to do. Another thought--in some ways, aspiring youngfemale musicians know the score. Many of them keep themselves in the best shape they can and work on their physical image. The ThirdEyeGirl women were attractive (Hannah being probably the prettiest) but they were working musicians to some degree before Prince and he never played up their sexuality or beauty (and they were not romantic interests). But Prince did seem to like to brag about or remind people about or work with women like Mavis Staples and Sharon JOnes.

rednblue said:

Agreed. : )

It's just that, at times, it contributed to the nonprogressive side of Paisley as a workplace for women. P said you have to respect the music, but the end result of that particular behavior worked against some really talented and hard working female musicians.

[Edited 5/20/18 18:27pm]

Thank you for your thoughtful response, purplerabbithole. So many really good points. My take is that while P could be very unprogressive in how he dealt with women who worked for/with him, he could also be very progressive. I think it was complicated.
Prince clearly loved women for youthful beauty, and he clearly loved and admired women for much more than that.

We who love his music have always known that P was not perfect, known that he was human, just like the rest of us. So there were things here and there, over the years, that gave some pause. For me, that doesn't include anything about struggles that ended his life. All that has my compassion and respect. I love him as much as ever.

PeteSilas said:

He wanted the PR level stardom probably for the most basic reason, it was within his grasp and he knew it. However, he jumped off that mountaintop not long after he climbed it, sabotaging most of it in the process. In my mind, he clearly had an ambiguous relationship with stardom, he liked the freedom, the money, the attention but he didn't like the stress, the loss of privacy (other side of attention) and the artistic limits of it. I still am surprised by how it all ended, I never thought it would end like that. But my perception is softened most of all, the stories of his humanity that were kept under wraps make me think more highly of him inspite of the addictions.

CherryMoon57 said:

I totally agree with you on here and there is nothing wrong with making music and dedicating your life to it if this is what you love doing... But you can also be a musician and not seek global stardom. My point was that all the pressures that come with this massive celebrity status (which you cannot get rid of once you have acquired it) is what triggers or accentuates imbalances in an individual. The truth is that he really did go for it at the beginning of his career and without Purple Rain/Warner, he would have never had the big audience that he kept all along.

The question that remains is whether he had any regrets over any of this? Well, actually, when you start digging into his songs it doesn't take very long to realise that they often point to the negative and superficial aspect of fame: 'I've been to the mountain top and it ain't what you say' (Dont Play Me), 'Give me back the time, You can keep the memories' (The Breakdown), or the lyrics in 'The Holy River' (to name but a few) pretty much answers that question.

I've ALWAYS felt even before knowing about the pain medication addiction. That the whole Purple Rain project was something I DID NOT want Prince to do. I was a fan way before that and cringed at the thought of him doing a movie. I felt it was a BIG mistake. Although the reason changed. I was still right. If Prince would have never done that whole Purple Rain project he would still be alive today. In the end it DID NOT make him happy. Like U said "he jumped off the mountainto" purposely. Because Prince knew that those after Purple Rain fans like he quoted "only screamed at the right moments" on that tour. They weren't his real fans and were just there for the moment.

The grueling trauma that tour put on his body would affect him the rest of his life. The majority of the Purple rain tour crew was on cocaine just to stay awake each day.

My perception of Prince has and will NEVER change. He will forever be my my musical idol that had a tragic ending but music will remain the soundtrack of my life.

[Edited 5/21/18 18:15pm]

ChocolateBox3121 said:

It's confusing to me that a fan's appreciation for a celebrity/artist's work could be dimished because that artist made choices in their personal life that are different than the ones a fan would make in their own life, or that run counter to the fan's idea of how people "should be."

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I'm not talking about a celebrity that does terrible things to other people -- that are, say, racist, sexist or exploitative -- but things that impact (and perhaps ultimately harm) the celebrities own life.

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I don't pretend to completely understand what life is like for a huge celebrity like Prince. He had pressures, stresses and experiences that are really different than mine. But I imagine that any celebrity finds ways (good and bad) to deal with their unique situation, and I don't feel it's my place to sit in judgment.

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I just wish the world were organized in such a way that EVERYONE felt they had the ability and opporunity to make choices that would allow them to live their fullest, healthiest, happiest, most valued life. I hope that I'm helping to make the world more that way.

+1