jcurley said:

Thriller was a massive crowd oleaser but didn't have cultural or musical impact. Unless you count 30 odd yrs of tiresome choreography and video being more important than the music. Shallow

Singing & dancing was around long before Mike was born and rock music came about, like in vaudeville. Some swing jazz bands had dancers onstage, and there was the popularity of movie musicals starting in the 1930s. People like Sammy Davis Jr. did both. Vocal groups like The Temptations and doo wop acts like The Coasters did choreography and James Brown danced too. Motown had a choreographer Cholly Atkins working with their groups. There's many songs about dancing like The Twist by Chubby Checker, which hit #1 twice on the Hot 100. So they've always been together. It didn't start because of music videos.

NorthC said:

The term "flapper era" is new to me, but I understand what you mean. I guess we agree that part of the appeal of rock and jazz was that it was a bit nasty... Forbidden fruits are always the best... And of course prohibition didn't work- just like the war on drugs (but that's a different subject.)

It was partially racist as it was mainly what was then called "race music" that the powers that be wanted to ban, like during the rock n roll payola trials in the late 1950s & early 1960s. Payola existed before rock music, but only when rock became popular with white teenagers and "corrupting" them by turning them into juvenile delinquents, did the courts become involved. Which is the same thing when people held protests against hip hop. When it was primarily popular with the black audience in the beginning, nothing was really said about it. Probably because most of the mainstream was not aware of it. But when rap started to crossover to the white audience and got bigger sales is when the same complaints earlier generations had began.

jcurley said:

rogifan said:

purple05 said:

Precisely. His reasoning for ranking Thriller 4 is whack. He quotes Chris Rock as if his opinion matters. None of those albums have hit after hit like Thriller. It comes down to personal preference. Thriller is more than an album, it's a cultural moment

Sorry I was never really an MJ fan. IMO Prince had more talent in his pinky finger than MJ in his whole body. Of course I know it’s sacrilege to say that.

purple05 said:

MickyDolenz said:

purple05 said:

rogifan said:

Sorry I was never really an MJ fan. IMO Prince had more talent in his pinky finger than MJ in his whole body. Of course I know it’s sacrilege to say that.

Well that's fine. Who you prefer is a personal choice. As far as talent they are pretty equal but they excel in different areas.

purple05 said:

Dance has always been a form of artistic expression and has gone hand in hand with music.

Well people generally don't dance to silence.

F'CK the P vs MJ comparrisons, ok....!

No contest really Prince was a genius producer and musician.

Far more talented, MJ was a singer and dancer and maybe a better "promoter", more succesful on the hitlists, crreated huge hit after huge hit..

However Prince made more brilliant albums, at least 10 brilliant in the 80s,

Of course I prefer P, this is a P forum, after all. Right???

MJ fans shut up already damn... haha.. kind of pathetic...

thedance said:

purple05 said:

purple05 said:

rogifan said:

Sorry I was never really an MJ fan. IMO Prince had more talent in his pinky finger than MJ in his whole body. Of course I know it’s sacrilege to say that.

Well that's fine. Who you prefer is a personal choice. As far as talent they are pretty equal but they excel in different areas.

An opinion is not pathetic. "thedance" has an opinion. What is pathetic is MJ fans (disguised as Prince fans on a prince site) being silent as a church mouse until , that is, a list is published online that places Prince higher than MJ and then all of the sudden they appear as if they had been silently perusing Prince.org for MJ comments, and we have to read all their insecure assertions that MJ is more talented or just as talented but in a different way...(in other words, the whole MJ-is-a-better-"entertainer"--bullshit being stated like religious doctrine rather than the opinion that it is..) All of the sudden, we are being educated on MJ's skills and popularity. Really, you are like Don Quixote fighting windmills. Why are you so offended that one man had the opinion that a Prince album is better than Thriller. Do you know how many polls still place Prince lower than MJ. Do you know that right now a poll is on twitter that pits these two against one another and MJ is at 60%. Let Prince win a few things and let his fans enjoy the honor on his own website. Some of you MJ fans think Prince fans are mean about MJ. They can be nasty about MJ but I guarantee you that they are not spending their time on MJ sites and in the comments sections of MJ videos on youtube bragging about Prince's 39 albums and thousands of songs or the fact he also could dance (even though he was the ulimate multi-tasker).

purple05 said:

thedance said:

F'CK the P vs MJ comparrisons, ok....!

No contest really Prince was a genius producer and musician.

Far more talented, MJ was a singer and dancer and maybe a better "promoter", more succesful on the hitlists, crreated huge hit after huge hit..

However Prince made more brilliant albums, at least 10 brilliant in the 80s,

Of course I prefer P, this is a P forum, after all. Right???

MJ fans shut up already damn... haha.. kind of pathetic...

No your post is pathetic. Prince will be preferred here and he is supposed to be. Music is subjective and everyone can like who they wabtv

[Edited 12/23/17 7:17am]

[Edited 12/23/17 7:22am]

[Edited 12/23/17 7:37am]

Its in the same stratosphere. Thriller is more famous. But Purple Rain is far from obscure.

purple05 said:

jcurley said:

When I was a child Thriller completely passed me by, I was 11. To be honest I was barely conscious of MJ. He came from that era when music was still being targeted at teenage pocket money. I was too precocious to listen to something like Thriller. I mean the title track was to me simply daft. Going on about ghouls etc. WTF. Purple Rain from the off was targeted at an older audience and the music is mind-blowing. Not music by committee. God the way MJ talks of sales sums up the creative aspirations he had. And yes PR was more of a cultural event by definition. It was far more than an album. Thriller was a massive crowd oleaser but didn't have cultural or musical impact. Unless you count 30 odd yrs of tiresome choreography and video being more important than the music. Shallow

Thriller didn't have cultural impact but PR did?!?! You can't be serious. Thriller raised the bar and is still the standard to this very day. As far as cultural impact, PR isn't in the same strastosphere

Everyone getting their panty's in a twist, Purple Rain ain't even Prince's best album!! That said, it shits all over them others on dat list!

[Edited 12/23/17 9:09am]

It doesn't shit on the Beatles. But it isn't Prince's best album (I agree) and it is better than most on that list, including the very fun and very good Thriller album.

SPOOKYGAS said:

Everyone getting their panty's in a twist, Purple Rain ain't even Prince's best album!! That said, it shits all over them others on dat list!

[Edited 12/23/17 9:09am]

SPOOKYGAS said:

purplerabbithole said:

purplerabbithole said:

And you need to realize that people on a PRINCE site have a right to think that Prince is more talented. Its an opinion. And we don't need passive aggressive fans schooling us on MJ history. You are probably a nice person and don't mean any harm, so I am sorry if I am coming off so rude. But your statements that Prince and MJ have equal talents and your post history showing much more interest in MJ stuff than Prince stuff...well, fine. you are entitled. But I would advice you not try to convince Prince fans on a prince site to think MJ and him had equal talent. If they thought that they would be on an MJ site. If they are only on a Prince site, they obviously prefer Prince. We all have a right to preferences. Talent is not objectively quantified. MJ fans flood this place like God's rain after Noah built his ship everytime MJ is mentioned. Its tiresome. I am sorry. It feels like a private conversation amongst Prince fans that MJ fans are quietly spying on. YOu are right -- you didn't say anything until MJ got dissed. But you saying nothing good or informative about Prince on a prince site indicates that although you might respect Prince and see he had skills, you are here for MJ. My question is why do you care? The comparisons are stupid but they started with someone asking the presumptious question about how THriller could possibly be beaten by Purple Rain. And that came from a Prince fan... and now MJ fans flood the thread defending someone who needs no defending. You are a bunch of don Quixote's. I never schooled you.

purple05 said:

purplerabbithole said:

An opinion is not pathetic. "thedance" has an opinion. What is pathetic is MJ fans (disguised as Prince fans on a prince site) being silent as a church mouse until , that is, a list is published online that places Prince higher than MJ and then all of the sudden they appear as if they had been silently perusing Prince.org for MJ comments, and we have to read all their insecure assertions that MJ is more talented or just as talented but in a different way...(in other words, the whole MJ-is-a-better-"entertainer"--bullshit being stated like religious doctrine rather than the opinion that it is..) All of the sudden, we are being educated on MJ's skills and popularity. Really, you are like Don Quixote fighting windmills. Why are you so offended that one man had the opinion that a Prince album is better than Thriller. Do you know how many polls still place Prince lower than MJ. Do you know that right now a poll is on twitter that pits these two against one another and MJ is at 60%. Let Prince win a few things and let his fans enjoy the honor on his own website. Some of you MJ fans think Prince fans are mean about MJ. They can be nasty about MJ but I guarantee you that they are not spending their time on MJ sites and in the comments sections of MJ videos on youtube bragging about Prince's 39 albums and thousands of songs or the fact he also could dance (even though he was the ulimate multi-tasker).

[Edited 12/23/17 7:17am]

[Edited 12/23/17 7:22am]

[Edited 12/23/17 7:37am]

You don't have to school me on anything. I'm not nor have I ever dissed Prince. I made a statement that both were very talented in different ways because they are. As for this list, it means nothing to me because what you like is subjective and a personal choice. More people were dissing Thriller than celebrating PR being #1. So instead of trying to school me, some of y'all need to get out of the 80s and recognize that there's no 'vs'. They both are talented artist who have their place in history.

[Edited 12/23/17 12:13pm]

[Edited 12/23/17 12:15pm]

[Edited 12/23/17 12:17pm]

purple05 said:

It's downplayed because most white people arent very good at it. Once white people learn how to adapt to it, then it becomes accessible and cutting edge.

I think most people in general aren't really dancers. Don't know why you singled out a certain race for this. I figure Gene Kelly is a better dancer than Jimmy Walker.

Also what about European based dance styles like ballet & Riverdancing?

laytonian said:

Silvertongue7 said:

Easily.

Exactly. Take away Quincy Jones, and what is MJ?

Exactly, I see MJ more as a performer, he wasn't REALLY a producer.

MickyDolenz said:

laytonian said:

Take away Quincy Jones, and what is MJ?

If that's the case, how come James Ingram, Patti Austin, Rufus, Tevin Campbell, Leslie Gore, Frank Sinatra, Brothers Johnson, etc. or Quincy's albums under his own name didn't sell as well as Mike? If Mike sold only because of Quincy, then Patti Austin should be just as popular. How about Jackson 5/Jacksons records that Quincy had nothing to do with and the albums after Bad?

On the 10 albums on the OP. I go with The Beatles album as the one I like the best.

MJ still worked with other producers, and the albums after thriller didn't sell as much as thriller either, right? Soo, I think MJ was popular because he was such a great performer. And of course there were the videos 2.

And seriously, could the MJ bunch please stay off this thread or if you want to comment, please stop comparing Prince to MJ just because Prince got ranked higher than MJ on that list. If you won't stop the mods will colse this thread, seriously, I as a prince fan want to celebrate this moment in this thread.

I agree. There are good dancers in both races. PLus, popular dancing is heavily influenced by the black American subculture now and has been for years. But dancing is an universal thing. Unless you think ballet and other 'classical' forms of dancing associated with white European culture is inherently inferior to more recent modern forms of dancing, that statement is actuallly unfair to white people. The irish jig is partly where tap dancing came from in the first place (tap dancing has its roots in white European dance moves and African dance moves.) White people don't just steal from black musicians. Black musicians and dancers back in the day borrowed from European traditions and then incorporated them into a new style. THe issue is when whites are derivative and blatantly stealing from black traditions without adding anything new to the art or craft of dancing and without giving credit to the innovations black artists brought to the scene--when it takes white folks imitating black innovations for record sales and mainstream acceptances to occur--all the while the original black innovators get ignored. those are legitimate reasons to be irritated and defensive. But it doesn't excuse claims that white folks can't dance--that is some BS.

MickyDolenz said:

purple05 said:

It's downplayed because most white people arent very good at it. Once white people learn how to adapt to it, then it becomes accessible and cutting edge.

I think most people in general aren't really dancers. Don't know why you singled out a certain race for this. I figure Gene Kelly is a better dancer than Jimmy Walker.

Also what about European based dance styles like ballet & Riverdancing?

[Edited 12/23/17 13:10pm]

[Edited 12/23/17 13:13pm]

[Edited 12/23/17 13:16pm]

ThatWhiteDude said:

MJ still worked with other producers, and the albums after thriller didn't sell as much as thriller either, right?

Going by this, then the albums after these didn't sell as much either:

Beastie Boys - Licensed To Ill
Bruce Springsteen - Born In The USA
Run DMC - Raising Hell
Prince & The Revolution - Purple Rain
George Michael - Faith
Alanis Morrisette - Jagged Little Pill
Carole King - Tapestry
Tears For Fears - Songs From The Big Chair
Color Me Badd - C.M.B.
C+C Music Factory - Gonna Make You Sweat
Vanilla Ice - To The Extreme
Norah Jones - Come Away With Me

And so on. Garth Brooks has 7 albums certified diamond. Nobody else, including Michael Jackson can claim this. George Strait has 45 #1s on the country singles chart in Billboard and over 80 singles that reached the Top 10, and nobody else has done close to this on any other chart.

purplerabbithole said:

when it takes white folks imitating black innovations for record sales and mainstream acceptances to occur

That isn't the fault of the performers. People tend to buy the own race/ethnicity than others. Like Mexican singers sell more to Mexicans than others. Chinese sell more to Chinese and so on. Black people in general have more black artists in their collection than white artists. In the US there's more white people supporting entertainment than others, so most of the most popular entertainment features white people. There's alternate TV channels for others like Telemundo, BET, VH-1 Soul, Univision, Saigon TV, etc. Whenever a movie with a majority non-white cast becomes a box office hit, a big deal is made about it in the media like Straight Outta Compton, Girls Trip, Madea movies, New Edition Story, The Best Man, etc. Like it is a big surprise that the mainstream audience watched them and not just the UPN audience.

I am a white and I think it is bullshit that Adele is famous for singing old soul music than black folks have been singing for years and not making her kind of money. I think people shouldn't just listen to the music done by their own race..whether that be black people who avoid supposed white music and visa versa. What I love about jazz at its finest is that it sells to both whites and blacks. And that is the way it should be. Prince and MJ for that matter are black artist but more importanly they are American artists and all americans should embrace them. MExicans buy mexican music becuase it is what they are exposed to and it is often in Spanish. Same thing applies to Chinese. Minorities often buy music by their minority group because they feel the music isn't getting the following it deserves but I still think there is no reason to live in a musical bubble.

MickyDolenz said:

purplerabbithole said:

when it takes white folks imitating black innovations for record sales and mainstream acceptances to occur

That isn't the fault of the performers. People tend to buy the own race/ethnicity than others. Like Mexican singers sell more to Mexicans than others. Chinese sell more to Chinese and so on. Black people in general have more black artists in their collection than white artists. In the US there's more white people supporting entertainment than others, so most of the most popular entertainment features white people. There's alternate TV channels for others like Telemundo, BET, VH-1 Soul, Univision, Saigon TV, etc. Whenever a movie with a majority non-white cast becomes a box office hit, a big deal is made about it in the media like Straight Outta Compton, Girls Trip, Madea movies, New Edition Story, The Best Man, etc. Like it is a big surprise that the mainstream audience watched them and not just the UPN audience.

purplerabbithole said:

I am a white and I think it is bullshit that Adele is famous for singing old soul music than black folks have been singing for years and not making her kind of money. I think people shouldn't just listen to the music done by their own race..whether that be black people who avoid supposed white music and visa versa. What I love about jazz at its finest is that it sells to both whites and blacks. And that is the way it should be. Prince and MJ for that matter are black artist but more importanly they are American artists and all americans should embrace them. Mexicans buy mexican music becuase it is what they are exposed to and it is often in Spanish. Same thing applies to Chinese. Minorities often buy music by their minority group because they feel the music isn't getting the following it deserves but I still think there is no reason to live in a musical bubble.

I'm pretty sure non-whites are more likely to support white entertainment, than vice versa other than maybe sports like NBA & NFL and rap music. Because that's what is there (in the USA). Blacks are more likely to watch Thor Ragnorok than whites are to watch Meteor Man. It's also true that male singers & actors are more likely to be bigger than female. The majority of the largest selling artists in history are white males like The Beatles, Eagles, Garth Brooks, Elvis Presley, & Pink Floyd.

Not disagreeing that black people are more likely to watch white entertainment becuase there is more of it out there. But I used to teach in a school in which 70 percent of my students were black, and when I would offer to play Pandora during work times, the requests were all hip-hop. That being said, I am fairly certain that in a school with 70 percent white studetns, the music requests would be less likely to be hip-hop. IN all fairness, Adele was extremely popular amongst the black female students I had.

[Edited 12/23/17 14:54pm]