I know we are not supposed to start new threads from old ones. However, Therapy made a really good post on the psychological model for conversion thread that I think warrants its own discussion.

Here's the thread it's from and her post, followed by my response.

From the thread entitled Understanding Prince's co...cal model?

Therapy said:

Ahhh. I really like how you put that.

It highlights how stubbornness and control-freaking, while a challenge to personal and business relationships, can be on the other hand quite indispensible for artistic expression.

One must have a kind of disregard or at least measured (grain of salt) appreciation of others opinions if s/he is going to create the art that s/he feels coming from within. It's a cockiness, braveness, and closed cocoon that will allow the work to come to birth. When you're in that creative moment you neither need nor want doubting thomases telling you that "this is not going to work" "the people won't buy it" etc. You just want to create.

Now later, there is a place and space for the critical discourse to take place. But during those creative moments, definitely LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE!!! I am not an artist, but as a writer I can relate. I am not goint to tell you my thesis/argument for a paper until I have worked it out all on my own, cuz I don't want you poking holes in my isht before I even get off the ground. I'd just be staring at a blank screen all day. Gimme a chance to get something down and then I'll let you peek at it. I'm stubborn with my ideas like that; and it's quite difficult for me to collaborate or co-write with someone else.

There is a benefit to collaborating or co-creating, but it's a difficult balance. I suspect that's why P's "collaborations" end up being Prince productions more than anything else. I understand why. And I understand why and how someone who finds himself in the creative moment so frequently would get to a point where it is a major challenge to listen to any other voice but his own.

I would imagine the idea of Prince being a 'control freak' is related to his desire for perfection in expressing himself. These ideas of perfection have changed with Prince over time. Perhaps, one example of these changing values became related to ownership, and that stemmed from what Prince deemed perfect in the past, not coinciding with what Warner Brothers thought they could sell.

I dunno that I even see him as a control freak with the example that you give NPS, lol...

Of course I can only draw from my own experience... but I actually see the 'process' of creation as a right to experience.

Sometimes, I walk down the street and I feel totally comfortable singing really loud, walking past people. This is when I am alone. Other times, there is an internal protector which speaks to me which says 'I'd button the singing if I were you mate... you are starting to feel uncomfortable for a reason here...'. I trust that voice inside. Basically, that inner voice is alerting me, saying that there may be a chance that other people at that time, may 'do or say' something that would impinge upon my expression at that moment. Maybe that is because there are people who do not value/experience their own creative freedom, I suppose the reasons may be many. I am unable to sing in the way that I enjoy most infront of my parents and that has to do with trust. Similarly, I don't know if I am certainly correct in the instances with strangers on the street not being in contact with their own creativity and expressions, yet I do find myself to be able to sing comfortably infront of some strangers on my travels and not others.

In this instance, I'm talking about people who, because they are not in touch with a proportion of their own creativity, they trash anyone else who may be. If I were to ignore my own intuition telling me to button it, I would be purposefully chucking myself to the wolves, which has no self care involved! Then how could I continue to be creative?!

I don't see a creative expression as being cocky, I also don't see a wanting to finish creating as being stubborn! It's a right - just like when a person starts to speak a sentance, they have a right to complete the sentance without someone butting in or cutting them down.

Now, this brings me onto something else. I can see how this *may* be seen as a being a control freak or stubbornness if a person is used to being interrupted... because then A PERSON HAS TO BLOODY WELL SHOUT TO BE ABLE TO FUCKING WELL FINISH THEIR SENTANCE, don't they?!

Of course, this is, from my perspective.

And thank you very much for your complimentary org note...

It's a double-edged sword...of course we require independence. But at the same time, we must be open to criticism. Criticism can be examined and disregarded with skillful independence. But to block it out entirely can make an island of you, preventing valuable insight from penetrating. And I think Prince is used to being "right" all the time. But that's who he is...and we love it...

geek mode

i'm an artist as well, and like teller said we require independence (hell, if we totally went along with what folks wish we'd do, there'd really be no purpose 4 artistic expression, eh?)...can't block criticism out, no matter how hard u try, how often u hear it or what-not.

sorta like a yin-yang, in a way...

nuPWRSOUL,therapy,teller,and handclaps...every word you
expressed is heavy and true.
being a writer-artist..and musical dabbler...i know how
difficult the cycle goes from creative thought,the execution
of the ARt.music.etc...to letting other check it out..to
trying to sift through what you can take from people
views...its a tricky process.

i think p's brilliant at what he does.musically however i
has always not caring to hear other balanced opinions to
the extremes. and when he done AWFUL music it has usually been because he refused to accept anyone else's viewpoint.

one thing about his collaborations with w & l...a lot of
what they did as a trio was quality stuff because he allowed
another perspective to accent his vision.
if you're around long enough as a creative person you'll
be able to know when to take the good and bad from other
people's take. noone creates in a cocoon.

his control freak ways are the way he is. i think deep down
inside he isn't as COcksure of his ability as he lets on.

when a person doesn't listen to anybody feelings and tries
to control evry little thing they do-to me that's an insecure individual. not one who thinks they're GOD.

for NUpwrsoul: remember the sequence in the book when prince
confides to the engineer about his real view of Ingrid Chavez's album? that says it all about why he IS a control
freak!

I'm not sure if Prince being a "control freak" is a function of him being an artist in general but that it is more of a function of his creativity combined with his personality. In much of his music, image, and interviews Prince expresses the desire to be free and he seems to place a great value on freedom. However, in order for him to be "free" and to let his artistic vision be unrestricted, he feels that he must have total control over what he does. If anybody else were to share in that control, he would no longer be free and he would feel that his artistic vision would be compromised.

There are artists/bands who can and do work with others and produce works that do not compromise their artistic vision with R.E.M. being an example. Prince isn't like that though. It's just not who he is.

I think him being a control freak isn't a function of him being an artist, it's just the kind of artist he is. Some artists LOVE a lot of input & collaboration. I have a friend who's a painter that loves to have friends around when he works. No one else touches the canvas of course, but he's always asking questions - do you like this? What do you think of this color? Should I use this poem or that one? He's very influenced by the people & things around him, be it movies, music, a conversation, a quick opinion. He's open like that & it works for him.

With Prince, control issues are in his personality & were gonna manifest no matter what he chose to do. He happens to dig music so his desire for & liking of control naturally pushed him forth to be the leader of his group. It's personality, trust (in himself), & being keen enough to recognize the way to go...

And I think you're right about being left alone until you at least get your ideas off the ground & underway. Too much interferance in the beginning can leave you stuck...

Music is Control with the Guy&It connects His Whole Being.it's been all He has known&even folks associated with Him say that it's one&the same.the Prince musical Presentation is also the Prince Person presentation&it's all One&Being.the Music&The Man are tied under the same control&without the Music Control where would He be?

CalhounSq said:

I can get with that.

They all have to b

IF U WANT SOMETHING DONE, U GOTTA DO IT URSELF

I would say that it's a function of him being a human being who found it hard to come to terms with his childhood. Prince is a human first, his being an artist is secondary to that.

He probably controls because he's scared of being left alone. He told Neil Karlen that he had to protect himself incase everyone got up and left him. Sounds like someone who had to control people, make them dependant on him so that they wouldn't leave.

ConsciousContact said:

Interesting...

teller said:

Hi Teller

In response to what you've said, I just want to agree to some extent and share my own thoughts.

I think feedback is extremely valuable. However, what I think is wrong, is the INTERPRETATION of feedback. I have only over the past few years, discovered its worth.

Feedback given in a SAFE environment, and compassionatly delivered, can help a person to see parts of themselves that they are blind to as you so rightly have said and can allow a person to grow. Feedback dressed up as criticism, I experience as always damaging, putting down, trying to score points etc.

Fair discussion and empathic exchanges create the kind of rich ground on which feedback can be used in a manner that is safe and contructive. That way of saying something about another person, shows understanding and kindness.

Therapy said:

Hi Therapy

I agree that it's best if criticism is delivered lovingly. The only caveat I would add here is that if you're on the receiving end, be strong enough to receive the criticism that isn't so loving, and judge the contents yourself--it may yet contain something valuable. It's hard, of course, because your first reaction is to dismiss stuff if it's wrapped in a caustic package...and in fact I often don't have the patience to listen to assholes, but I find that in wondering what it was that set them off, I am sometimes faulty.

On the other hand...I think about my Skeletons and how the first 50 or so were greeted with dismissive ridicule because the vision I was moving toward wasn't clear to anyone else but me...at times like that, only you know what you're really doing. Again it comes back to using one's own judgment, and trying to filter out the emotional noise from the feedback.

Of course once you've got your information, you can then let loose on the person.

Speaking from my perspective I think that Prince being a controlfreak with regards to his art has advantages as well as disadvantages. The first because he can be truly creative without listening to others or mimicing... the second because he can be problematic when it comes to playing in a band and writing songs together.

With regards to his business I would argue that being acontrolfreak like Prince is, only hurts you in many ways. He seems to truly believe that he can mix his controlfreak practices with regards to his art with his business. Perhabs he is even convinced that he can do this, because it seems that he never learns from his mistakes in business. I really don't know, or understand why he does this.