This is NOT a solicitation, an offer, or even begging ...but I am curious and confused.

How could so many Prince concerts and aftershows be 'out there' without permission? How/why couldn't Prince have shut this down over the years? When something is touted as a 'soundboard' release or quality, does that imply that honest sound engineers were almost impossible to find?

If bootlegging is theft of the artists' work, how can it be so prevelant? Do other artists struggle with the same theft of their music? Why haven't injunctions been issued and bootlegs seized and destroyed?

Can someone help explain this?

[Edited 10/18/17 8:26am]

Music has been "bootlegged" since the beginning of recorded sound...

Bodhitheblackdog said:

This is NOT a solicitation, an offer, or even begging ...but I am curious and confused.

How could so many Prince concerts and aftershows be 'out there' without permission? How/why couldn't Prince have shut this down over the years? When something is touted as a 'soundboard' release or quality, does that imply that honest sound engineers were almost impossible to find?

If bootlegging is theft of the artists' work, how can it be so prevelant? Do other artists struggle with the same theft of their music? Why haven't injunctions been issued and bootlegs seized and destroyed?

Can someone help explain this?

[Edited 10/18/17 8:26am]

As someone who has collected bootlegs for nearly 30 years, I'll give this a try.

When you say "so many", realize that the vast majority are audience recordings, that do not require anyone within the artist's organization to be dishonest.

As for SBD releases. Some artists, like Prince, record every (or at least most) of their performances. Once the soundman turns over the tape, it can be anyone that has access that could leak it, not just the engineer.

Bootlegging is "prevelant" because there is a demand. Any artist big enough to have obsessive fans struggles with theft of their music. There are many websites dedicated solely to sharing bootlegs of any and all artists.

Injunctions have been issued and bootlegs have been seized. Factories have been raided, stores have been raided, websites have been shut down, people have been sued, etc...

As for how Prince bootlegs have leaked, there are many ways. Some have been leaked by associates and employees, some have been leaked by "friends", some were carelessly left lying around and were snagged by those with opportunity. Search this site and you will find MANY discussions on the subject, but, don't go down the "did Prince leak bootlegs on purpose" rabbithole. Generally speaking, he did not.

djThunderfunk said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

This is NOT a solicitation, an offer, or even begging ...but I am curious and confused.

How could so many Prince concerts and aftershows be 'out there' without permission? How/why couldn't Prince have shut this down over the years? When something is touted as a 'soundboard' release or quality, does that imply that honest sound engineers were almost impossible to find?

If bootlegging is theft of the artists' work, how can it be so prevelant? Do other artists struggle with the same theft of their music? Why haven't injunctions been issued and bootlegs seized and destroyed?

Can someone help explain this?

[Edited 10/18/17 8:26am]

As someone who has collected bootlegs for nearly 30 years, I'll give this a try.

When you say "so many", realize that the vast majority are audience recordings, that do not require anyone within the artist's organization to be dishonest.

As for SBD releases. Some artists, like Prince, record every (or at least most) of their performances. Once the soundman turns over the tape, it can be anyone that has access that could leak it, not just the engineer.

Bootlegging is "prevelant" because there is a demand. Any artist big enough to have obsessive fans struggles with theft of their music. There are many websites dedicated solely to sharing bootlegs of any and all artists.

Injunctions have been issued and bootlegs have been seized. Factories have been raided, stores have been raided, websites have been shut down, people have been sued, etc...

As for how Prince bootlegs have leaked, there are many ways. Some have been leaked by associates and employees, some have been leaked by "friends", some were carelessly left lying around and were snagged by those with opportunity. Search this site and you will find MANY discussions on the subject, but, don't go down the "did Prince leak bootlegs on purpose" rabbithole. Generally speaking, he did not.

Thank you!

Bodhitheblackdog said:

This is NOT a solicitation, an offer, or even begging ...but I am curious and confused.

I was too when, at the age of 14 in 1991, I found a record stores full of records that I knew couldn't possibly exist and, yet, were there under my eyes, with the clerk refusing to give me an explaination about it except repeating like a mantra that they were "imports", which of course made no sense. Then, luckily, I saw a documentary about bootlegs on TV and it all made sense.

How could so many Prince concerts and aftershows be 'out there' without permission? How/why couldn't Prince have shut this down over the years? When something is touted as a 'soundboard' release or quality, does that imply that honest sound engineers were almost impossible to find?

It's not uncommon for concert venues to record and keep a copy of the shows played at the venue (see the MusicVault site, who's made exclusively of such recordings and has been subject to several legal battles and yet manage to remain legally in existence). In some cases, the venue's sound engineer knew fans and gave/sold them copies of the soundboard recordings: I know for a fact that it's what's happened for at least one of the soundboard aftershows (I won't say which one for obvious reasons). Many other soundboard shows, particularly from the 80's, came from former bandmembers or people from Prince's camp who could easily obtain copies, and later in the 90's sold them to bootleggers for substantial sums (this is how the whole "City Lights/Studio Nights" collection was released in 1995 for example), or given to fans under the promise they wouldn't share them (but they would eventually leak or sell them, or give them to someone who would eventually do either). Again, certain stories are known among fans but names cannot be shared publicly.

If bootlegging is theft of the artists' work, how can it be so prevelant?

Because when people really want to do/get something, they manage to do/get it.

Do other artists struggle with the same theft of their music?

Of course they do, although there are a few well known artists who openly encouraged their fans to record and/or trade bootlegs of their work.

Why haven't injunctions been issued and bootlegs seized and destroyed?

Of course injuctions have been issued and bootlegs seized and destroyed. For one thing, up until the early 90's several countries, including some European ones, had legal loopholes regarding copyright, that bootleggers exploited well. This was corrected by the GATT treaty in 1994, at a time when bootlegs could be found in every possible record store in Europe. Consequently, the industry snapped and by the end of 1996 it was virtually impossible to find bootlegs in record stores anymore. But then came the internet. Prince himself had quite a number of website shut down ever since, though mostly sites sharing boots for free as opposed to selling them. What you say is just like asking "why aren't all drugs taken off the market?" or "why aren't all prostitues and pimps jailed?": just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's easy to fight. Besides, fighting it is costly, and as long as record stores aren't flooded with bootlegs the way they were in 1994, bootlegs don't represent much of of a threat to artists and labels. Besides, ever since the internet ruined the music industry with P2P's, direct downloads and streaming sites, the industry has had more important fights to fight.

Can someone help explain this?

I hope I have.

djThunderfunk said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

This is NOT a solicitation, an offer, or even begging ...but I am curious and confused.

How could so many Prince concerts and aftershows be 'out there' without permission? How/why couldn't Prince have shut this down over the years? When something is touted as a 'soundboard' release or quality, does that imply that honest sound engineers were almost impossible to find?

If bootlegging is theft of the artists' work, how can it be so prevelant? Do other artists struggle with the same theft of their music? Why haven't injunctions been issued and bootlegs seized and destroyed?

Can someone help explain this?

[Edited 10/18/17 8:26am]

As someone who has collected bootlegs for nearly 30 years, I'll give this a try.

When you say "so many", realize that the vast majority are audience recordings, that do not require anyone within the artist's organization to be dishonest.

As for SBD releases. Some artists, like Prince, record every (or at least most) of their performances. Once the soundman turns over the tape, it can be anyone that has access that could leak it, not just the engineer.

Bootlegging is "prevelant" because there is a demand. Any artist big enough to have obsessive fans struggles with theft of their music. There are many websites dedicated solely to sharing bootlegs of any and all artists.

Injunctions have been issued and bootlegs have been seized. Factories have been raided, stores have been raided, websites have been shut down, people have been sued, etc...

As for how Prince bootlegs have leaked, there are many ways. Some have been leaked by associates and employees, some have been leaked by "friends", some were carelessly left lying around and were snagged by those with opportunity. Search this site and you will find MANY discussions on the subject, but, don't go down the "did Prince leak bootlegs on purpose" rabbithole. Generally speaking, he did not.

You beat me to it

databank said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

This is NOT a solicitation, an offer, or even begging ...but I am curious and confused.

I was too when, at the age of 14 in 1991, I found a record stores full of records that I knew couldn't possibly exist and, yet, were there under my eyes, with the clerk refusing to give me an explaination about it except repeating like a mantra that they were "imports", which of course made no sense. Then, luckily, I saw a documentary about bootlegs on TV and it all made sense.

How could so many Prince concerts and aftershows be 'out there' without permission? How/why couldn't Prince have shut this down over the years? When something is touted as a 'soundboard' release or quality, does that imply that honest sound engineers were almost impossible to find?

It's not uncommon for concert venues to record and keep a copy of the shows played at the venue (see the MusicVault site, who's made exclusively of such recordings and has been subject to several legal battles and yet manage to remain legally in existence). In some cases, the venue's sound engineer knew fans and gave/sold them copies of the soundboard recordings: I know for a fact that it's what's happened for at least one of the soundboard aftershows (I won't say which one for obvious reasons). Many other soundboard shows, particularly from the 80's, came from former bandmembers or people from Prince's camp who could easily obtain copies, and later in the 90's sold them to bootleggers for substantial sums (this is how the whole "City Lights/Studio Nights" collection was released in 1995 for example), or given to fans under the promise they wouldn't share them (but they would eventually leak or sell them, or give them to someone who would eventually do either). Again, certain stories are known among fans but names cannot be shared publicly.

If bootlegging is theft of the artists' work, how can it be so prevelant?

Because when people really want to do/get something, they manage to do/get it.

Do other artists struggle with the same theft of their music?

Of course they do, although there are a few well known artists who openly encouraged their fans to record and/or trade bootlegs of their work.

Why haven't injunctions been issued and bootlegs seized and destroyed?

Of course injuctions have been issued and bootlegs seized and destroyed. For one thing, up until the early 90's several countries, including some European ones, had legal loopholes regarding copyright, that bootleggers exploited well. This was corrected by the GATT treaty in 1994, at a time when bootlegs could be found in every possible record store in Europe. Consequently, the industry snapped and by the end of 1996 it was virtually impossible to find bootlegs in record stores anymore. But then came the internet. Prince himself had quite a number of website shut down ever since, though mostly sites sharing boots for free as opposed to selling them. What you say is just like asking "why aren't all drugs taken off the market?" or "why aren't all prostitues and pimps jailed?": just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's easy to fight. Besides, fighting it is costly, and as long as record stores aren't flooded with bootlegs the way they were in 1994, bootlegs don't represent much of of a threat to artists and labels. Besides, ever since the internet ruined the music industry with P2P's, direct downloads and streaming sites, the industry has had more important fights to fight.

Can someone help explain this?

I hope I have.

You Have!

Thanks for explaining it so well Databank and Thunderfunk. My knowledge

of bootlegging consisted of The episode of "Whats Happening" when RErun was talked

into bootlegging the Dobie Brothers Concert and the tape recorder fell out of his jacket.

Thanks, now i know why there were records i had never heard of in the Wreka stow back in the

day that i also was told they were "rare imports". i didn't realize bootleggers would go to the

trouble of acutally pressing an ablum.

Thanks for asking the question Bodhi!!

purplefam99 said:

Thanks for explaining it so well Databank and Thunderfunk. My knowledge

of bootlegging consisted of The episode of "Whats Happening" when RErun was talked

into bootlegging the Dobie Brothers Concert and the tape recorder fell out of his jacket.

Thanks, now i know why there were records i had never heard of in the Wreka stow back in the

day that i also was told they were "rare imports". i didn't realize bootleggers would go to the

trouble of acutally pressing an ablum.

Thanks for asking the question Bodhi!!

Nice to know I'm not alone and that somebody on here actually remembers that show.

Asenath0607 said:

purplefam99 said:

Thanks for explaining it so well Databank and Thunderfunk. My knowledge

of bootlegging consisted of The episode of "Whats Happening" when RErun was talked

into bootlegging the Dobie Brothers Concert and the tape recorder fell out of his jacket.

Thanks, now i know why there were records i had never heard of in the Wreka stow back in the

day that i also was told they were "rare imports". i didn't realize bootleggers would go to the

trouble of acutally pressing an ablum.

Thanks for asking the question Bodhi!!

Nice to know I'm not alone and that somebody on here actually remembers that show.

You're not the only one!

databank said:

You beat me to it

Yeah, but you shared some good info that I left out.

[Edited 10/19/17 6:19am]

I used to go to record shows in Buffalo NY in the 90's. I bought many bootlegs there. One time there seemed to be this strange hustle bustle going on with the dealers. Turned out there were police there confiscating bootlegs. The dealers were all hiding their stuff. I overheard one dealer say "If they weren't doing anything illegal they wouldn't have to worry about it". Touche!

djdaffy1227 said:

I used to go to record shows in Buffalo NY in the 90's. I bought many bootlegs there. One time there seemed to be this strange hustle bustle going on with the dealers. Turned out there were police there confiscating bootlegs. The dealers were all hiding their stuff. I overheard one dealer say "If they weren't doing anything illegal they wouldn't have to worry about it". Touche!

I use to buy boots at Used Record shops and at record shows. I knew of a Used CD shot that had a wall devoted to Prince Boots but that store got raided quickly.

because there are so many lame threads we need bootlegs to keep us busy

I've collected Prince bootlegs (and other bands) since the late 80s.

I went to London in 1989, and we would go into independent record stores searching for a bootleg of the Black Album, and found a few early vinyl bootlegs (one called Sex Machine).

Soon thereafter, a record show would pop up in Minneapolis with loads of bootlegs and you could find dealers in a music collector magazine callled Goldmine that had boot CDs you could order.

But I believe that Bootlegs only enhance the legacy of artists. The bands who have the most bootlegged materlal...Prince, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan, etc.. are all legends.

Most of the music that is bootleged (whether it's session recording outtakes or live performances) are things that would NOT be normally released anyway. It's a way for diehard fans to hear extra material that they normally wouldn't.

Casual fans don't buy bootlegs instead of officially licensed recordings. Bootlegs are primarily for hardcore fans who buy everything the artist/band releases, and wants more.

Sure, they artist should be making money off of these, but when they and/or the labels don't want to oversaturate the market with material most of the public wouldn't buy, they get released through other channels.

Luckily Prince had the NPG music club and then eventually, had independent routes to release a lot of extra music. Bob Dylan has a bootleg series and I'm sure a lot of other artists do to.

lemoncrush said:

I've collected Prince bootlegs (and other bands) since the late 80s.

I went to London in 1989, and we would go into independent record stores searching for a bootleg of the Black Album, and found a few early vinyl bootlegs (one called Sex Machine).

Soon thereafter, a record show would pop up in Minneapolis with loads of bootlegs and you could find dealers in a music collector magazine callled Goldmine that had boot CDs you could order.

But I believe that Bootlegs only enhance the legacy of artists. The bands who have the most bootlegged materlal...Prince, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan, etc.. are all legends.

Most of the music that is bootleged (whether it's session recording outtakes or live performances) are things that would NOT be normally released anyway. It's a way for diehard fans to hear extra material that they normally wouldn't.

Casual fans don't buy bootlegs instead of officially licensed recordings. Bootlegs are primarily for hardcore fans who buy everything the artist/band releases, and wants more.

Sure, they artist should be making money off of these, but when they and/or the labels don't want to oversaturate the market with material most of the public wouldn't buy, they get released through other channels.

Luckily Prince had the NPG music club and then eventually, had independent routes to release a lot of extra music. Bob Dylan has a bootleg series and I'm sure a lot of other artists do to.

Frank Zappa had the Beat The Boots series and Parliament Funkadelic released a 4CD live compilation that included some performances straight from bootlegs.

djThunderfunk said:

lemoncrush said:

I've collected Prince bootlegs (and other bands) since the late 80s.

I went to London in 1989, and we would go into independent record stores searching for a bootleg of the Black Album, and found a few early vinyl bootlegs (one called Sex Machine).

Soon thereafter, a record show would pop up in Minneapolis with loads of bootlegs and you could find dealers in a music collector magazine callled Goldmine that had boot CDs you could order.

But I believe that Bootlegs only enhance the legacy of artists. The bands who have the most bootlegged materlal...Prince, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Bob Dylan, etc.. are all legends.

Most of the music that is bootleged (whether it's session recording outtakes or live performances) are things that would NOT be normally released anyway. It's a way for diehard fans to hear extra material that they normally wouldn't.

Casual fans don't buy bootlegs instead of officially licensed recordings. Bootlegs are primarily for hardcore fans who buy everything the artist/band releases, and wants more.

Sure, they artist should be making money off of these, but when they and/or the labels don't want to oversaturate the market with material most of the public wouldn't buy, they get released through other channels.

Luckily Prince had the NPG music club and then eventually, had independent routes to release a lot of extra music. Bob Dylan has a bootleg series and I'm sure a lot of other artists do to.

Frank Zappa had the Beat The Boots series and Parliament Funkadelic released a 4CD live compilation that included some performances straight from bootlegs.

And I wish there were more. Listening to it now...

Bootlegs made a lot of us much more intense Prince fans than we would have been otherwise.

There's a book, Bootleg: The Secret History of the Other Recording Industry by Clinton Heylin, which is a good read. A lot about how classical concerts were bootlegged long ago, and the history of Dylan and Stones bootlegs. It also contains somewhere in there a reference to live sound engineer Joel Bernstein, who Prince addresses through the mic during the August 18, 1988 show (Small Club, which is of course one of the most famous and influential bootlegs ever). The reference made me think Bernstein was the one who leaked that soundboard tape.

Audience recordings sound terrible. Bootlegs are only worth owning if they're soundboard quality.

Anotherwontdare said:

Bootlegs made a lot of us much more intense Prince fans than we would have been otherwise.

There's a book, Bootleg: The Secret History of the Other Recording Industry by Clinton Heylin, which is a good read. A lot about how classical concerts were bootlegged long ago, and the history of Dylan and Stones bootlegs. It also contains somewhere in there a reference to live sound engineer Joel Bernstein, who Prince addresses through the mic during the August 18, 1988 show (Small Club, which is of course one of the most famous and influential bootlegs ever). The reference made me think Bernstein was the one who leaked that soundboard tape.

I have that book. Great read, highly recommended!!

fortuneandserendipity said:

Audience recordings sound terrible. Bootlegs are only worth owning if they're soundboard quality.

Usually this is true. However, I've heard quite a few soundboards that sounded like crap and quite a few audience recordings that sounded fantastic. There's always exceptions to rules.

Anotherwontdare said:

Bootlegs made a lot of us much more intense Prince fans than we would have been otherwise.

There's a book, Bootleg: The Secret History of the Other Recording Industry by Clinton Heylin, which is a good read. A lot about how classical concerts were bootlegged long ago, and the history of Dylan and Stones bootlegs. It also contains somewhere in there a reference to live sound engineer Joel Bernstein, who Prince addresses through the mic during the August 18, 1988 show (Small Club, which is of course one of the most famous and influential bootlegs ever). The reference made me think Bernstein was the one who leaked that soundboard tape.

I agree, many times (especially the aftershows) they're so intimate, spontaneous, inspired I can't help but wonder if (contrary to popular thought here) Prince didn't exactly mind that his core fans got to hear some very special performances...after all, he DID record everything, so, for what purpose?

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Oh, Lawd!

Bodhitheblackdog said:

djThunderfunk said:

don't go down the "did Prince leak bootlegs on purpose" rabbithole. Generally speaking, he did not.

How did I know the discussion would go there?

djThunderfunk said: