purplerabbithole said:

purplerabbithole said:

so no affection or sympathy for him whatsoever from any of those people he spent hours rehearsing with or doing after shows with??? All those humorous stories about ping pong and practical jokes--just made up or not really funny at the time but they used them anyway as fodder or something to talk about in interviews.)

Maybe, its a little more complicated than that. Maybe they suspected but couldn't confirm. Maybe they knew but didn't know how to go about approaching him or didn't know the severity of it. . Maybe when they did attempt to say anything or hint at it, he fired them or decided to go a different direction musically. He was a compartmentalized man. If we are to believe Mayte, he kept secrets even from her and she never actually saw the drug taking behavior. Enabling is probably more complicated than just...he pays my check--I don't care if he dies. If he dies, who pays the checks BTW???

Money is a factor, don't get me wrong. But I give the people in his outer circle a bit of a break. His inner circle (who helped facilitate or knew exactly what he was doing and said nothing) they can go fvck themselves.

1Sasha said:

I agree with the comments here about the people around him. They knew. If not all of them, then many of them. And they let the paycheck, or the house payment, or the car installment, rule what they did for him. He was their cash register, plain and simple.

[Edited 6/27/17 12:36pm]

purplerabbithole: I appreciate this observation and the one about Mani...very thought-provoking and nuanced. Much more than my own. Now I go a few shades darker and ask this: outer circle/inner circle/wives/family...you name it...might there be a hint, a shadow of passive aggressiveness in their neglect of their friends-husbands-employer's death spiral? Sub-conscious you-made-your-bed uncaring for the infidelities, emotional neglect, abrupt firings, hurt feelings about smallish-checks and no billing or musical credit, never-to-be-spoken-of payback for all the Princey things that may have just looked like celebrity behavior to us but from the inside felt cruel?

Kiran shouldn't throw rocks at glass houses. Interesting, if she said that.

purplerabbithole said:

It sounds like his inner inner circle has got a lot of explaining to... Meron, Kirk Johnson, and Judith HIll. (and Dr. S as well). This is so sad. I want to believe that other musicians/casual friends he worked with weren't quite as clued into the problem. After all, Prince's "princeness" was probably often played off as eccentricity and deliberate distance.

Kiran Sharma, his old assistant (who I think was mostly working for him out of England and Turks and Caicos until 2014) was tweeting about Judith being full of shit and romanticizing what happened the night of the drug overdose on the plane. Judith probably wasn't giving him pills but I imagine she knew what was up and either turned a blind eye or was in some kind of personal denial. Kiran probably knew as well (which is probably why she wasn't working for him anymore.)

I wonder who finally stepped up to get a pain treatment doctor for Prince. Its like they realized that maybe their 'neglect' would actually kill him. I really hope no one deliberately poisoned Prince. I know he could a pain, but good grief, that's harsh..and kind of random in a way (after all those years.)

prizefight said:

Just from looking at pictures I would guestimate other issues (either same hip or the other one) started manifesting as of 2012/13 on. Someone I know assisted him after surgery. Then other people came in and did not take care of him or monitor him. As far as I know, he passed away due to enablers, accidental drug purchase or on purpose? and non-care. There was obviously no one there to tell him to rest and eat. He kept going, probably because he felt scared. There was something wrong at least a year prior. If he was taking fentanyl and no percocet which he was used to, then that started a different host of problems. If you look at him 2010-12, he's in good form. Pay attention to his skin and under eyes and cane usage. After 2012 you can see changes and not just from ageing.

[Edited 6/27/17 11:24am]

Bodhitheblackdog said:

purplerabbithole said:

It sounds like his inner inner circle has got a lot of explaining to... Meron, Kirk Johnson, and Judith HIll. (and Dr. S as well). This is so sad. I want to believe that other musicians/casual friends he worked with weren't quite as clued into the problem. After all, Prince's "princeness" was probably often played off as eccentricity and deliberate distance.

Kiran Sharma, his old assistant (who I think was mostly working for him out of England and Turks and Caicos until 2014) was tweeting about Judith being full of shit and romanticizing what happened the night of the drug overdose on the plane. Judith probably wasn't giving him pills but I imagine she knew what was up and either turned a blind eye or was in some kind of personal denial. Kiran probably knew as well (which is probably why she wasn't working for him anymore.)

I wonder who finally stepped up to get a pain treatment doctor for Prince. Its like they realized that maybe their 'neglect' would actually kill him. I really hope no one deliberately poisoned Prince. I know he could a pain, but good grief, that's harsh..and kind of random in a way (after all those years.)

[Edited 6/27/17 11:24am]

Well I feel comfortable concluding that at least one person had the knowledge of his addiction and the leverage/credibility to go public and ensure that even though she was on to her next that he might have been saved. If she ever really loved him she would have. I think it went something like this: Mani: you're an addict and you need to get help or you'll die. Prince: how much do you want to just go away and keep quiet? Mani: $$$$$$?!? See ya. Prince knew that everyone (in his circle) had their price so his much reported sadness at the demise of this marriage wasn't because it ended, IMO, but that she chose money over him. She didn't stick around to fight the lonely battle with him...she took his money to spend with EB. She didn't fight to save him. She sold him out.

Divorce was over women not pills. He basically made her divorce him because he couldnt because of the JW.

purplerabbithole said:

I know its cool to hate on MT but I dont buy it. Her financial demands would have been much bigger than they were if she had his drug addiction to hang over his head. Did you read the divorce papers, he fought her on stuff. I think he was popping pills to deal with pain issues from his tour but he probably was functioning relatively well.. so it didn't appear to be out of hand but was still disconcerting. But I imagine he was keeping secrets from her and I imagine she was keeping secrets from him and I imagine he was working too hard (like usual) and there were suspicions on both sides of cheating. When he suspected she was cheating, he starting cutting her off financially and pushing her away (maybe testing her at that point. "Will she stick around even if I cut her off of the credit cards?" When she didn't and then she filed for divorce, he probably just felt it confirmed her greed. She might have thought he was just being mean with the money stuff so tried to stick to him a bit in the divorce. But even if her greed is somewhat apparent, its not exactly Paul McCarthney's ex-wife asking for nearly half his estate (a hidden out of hand percocet addiction would have been a lot leverage to get a lot more money than she got). Her divorce settlement was actually milder than many (not compared to Mayte's, but certainly compared to many celebrity divorces.)

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Well I feel comfortable concluding that at least one person had the knowledge of his addiction and the leverage/credibility to go public and ensure that even though she was on to her next that he might have been saved. If she ever really loved him she would have. I think it went something like this: Mani: you're an addict and you need to get help or you'll die. Prince: how much do you want to just go away and keep quiet? Mani: $$$$$$?!? See ya. Prince knew that everyone (in his circle) had their price so his much reported sadness at the demise of this marriage wasn't because it ended, IMO, but that she chose money over him. She didn't stick around to fight the lonely battle with him...she took his money to spend with EB. She didn't fight to save him. She sold him out.

[Edited 6/27/17 12:01pm]

[Edited 6/27/17 12:10pm]

Oh she knew, but like everyone else it wasn't about him. It was about them. He treated people poorly so that made people less sympathetic towards his pill use.

purplerabbithole said:

so no affection or sympathy for him whatsoever from any of those people he spent hours rehearsing with or doing after shows with??? All those humorous stories about ping pong and practical jokes--just made up or not really funny at the time but they used them anyway as fodder or something to talk about in interviews.)

Maybe, its a little more complicated than that. Maybe they suspected but couldn't confirm. Maybe they knew but didn't know how to go about approaching him or didn't know the severity of it. . Maybe when they did attempt to say anything or hint at it, he fired them or decided to go a different direction musically. He was a compartmentalized man. If we are to believe Mayte, he kept secrets even from her and she never actually saw the drug taking behavior. Enabling is probably more complicated than just...he pays my check--I don't care if he dies. If he dies, who pays the checks BTW???

Money is a factor, don't get me wrong. But I give the people in his outer circle a bit of a break. His inner circle (who helped facilitate or knew exactly what he was doing and said nothing) they can go fvck themselves.

1Sasha said:

I agree with the comments here about the people around him. They knew. If not all of them, then many of them. And they let the paycheck, or the house payment, or the car installment, rule what they did for him. He was their cash register, plain and simple.

[Edited 6/27/17 12:36pm]

You have to remember he was also masterful at manipulating. And if others on the outer of end of the ring sensed something, they may have been concerned but probably not confident to say anything but almost everyone knew. If they didn't know intimately they knew via rumors in the camp and word spreads fast.

To say something when the plane goes down is TOO LATE. To not keep him in the hospital is TOO LATE. And I know many people here would say "Well if I was there..." The fact is probably not. He did allow these people in, for a reason. Very few would have stood up. I know of only two and they were dismissed.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

purplerabbithole said:

so no affection or sympathy for him whatsoever from any of those people he spent hours rehearsing with or doing after shows with??? All those humorous stories about ping pong and practical jokes--just made up or not really funny at the time but they used them anyway as fodder or something to talk about in interviews.)

Maybe, its a little more complicated than that. Maybe they suspected but couldn't confirm. Maybe they knew but didn't know how to go about approaching him or didn't know the severity of it. . Maybe when they did attempt to say anything or hint at it, he fired them or decided to go a different direction musically. He was a compartmentalized man. If we are to believe Mayte, he kept secrets even from her and she never actually saw the drug taking behavior. Enabling is probably more complicated than just...he pays my check--I don't care if he dies. If he dies, who pays the checks BTW???

Money is a factor, don't get me wrong. But I give the people in his outer circle a bit of a break. His inner circle (who helped facilitate or knew exactly what he was doing and said nothing) they can go fvck themselves.

[Edited 6/27/17 12:36pm]

purplerabbithole: I appreciate this observation and the one about Mani...very thought-provoking and nuanced. Much more than my own. Now I go a few shades darker and ask this: outer circle/inner circle/wives/family...you name it...might there be a hint, a shadow of passive aggressiveness in their neglect of their friends-husbands-employer's death spiral? Sub-conscious you-made-your-bed uncaring for the infidelities, emotional neglect, abrupt firings, hurt feelings about smallish-checks and no billing or musical credit, never-to-be-spoken-of payback for all the Princey things that may have just looked like celebrity behavior to us but from the inside felt cruel?

Sadly, all of the above. Purplerabbithole and Bohdi. Tragically.

prizefight said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Well I feel comfortable concluding that at least one person had the knowledge of his addiction and the leverage/credibility to go public and ensure that even though she was on to her next that he might have been saved. If she ever really loved him she would have. I think it went something like this: Mani: you're an addict and you need to get help or you'll die. Prince: how much do you want to just go away and keep quiet? Mani: $$$$$$?!? See ya. Prince knew that everyone (in his circle) had their price so his much reported sadness at the demise of this marriage wasn't because it ended, IMO, but that she chose money over him. She didn't stick around to fight the lonely battle with him...she took his money to spend with EB. She didn't fight to save him. She sold him out.

Divorce was over women not pills. He basically made her divorce him because he couldnt because of the JW.

DD55 said:

prizefight said:

Divorce was over women not pills. He basically made her divorce him because he couldnt because of the JW.

Mani’s divorce settlement on paper is one thing but there also could have been a verbal agreement as well. He would fund her charity, or something like that. I suspect she did know there was an issue, they might even have fought about it (the song Love), but in the end whatever happened they divorced and went separate ways.

.

Whether one or the other cheated is of no consequence really. But I do believe she tried to bring the issue to light with her ‘Charlie S. 20/20' post on Facebook. She must have seen a difference in him even after she left, had a conversation or something told her to drop a hint, but she was mercilessly vilified. Love her or hate her, looking back in hindsight, she did try to say something, in my opinion.

.

DD55

Not sure if he cheated but there were alot of women and a lot of insecurities. I don't think she said anything tbh. I think both the ex's are somewhat users but he tends to choose and churn them out that way. MT was always very calcualated so good for her. She got what she wanted in the end.

prizefight said:

nelcp777 said:

Who assisted Prince after the surgery? Are you saying that his pain increased after 2013, leading to his addictions to opiates and no other illness?

Just from looking at pictures I would guestimate other issues (either same hip or the other one) started manifesting as of 2012/13 on. Someone I know assisted him after surgery. Then other people came in and did not take care of him or monitor him. As far as I know, he passed away due to enablers, accidental drug purchase or on purpose? and non-care. There was obviously no one there to tell him to rest and eat. He kept going, probably because he felt scared. There was something wrong at least a year prior. If he was taking fentanyl and no percocet which he was used to, then that started a different host of problems. If you look at him 2010-12, he's in good form. Pay attention to his skin and under eyes and cane usage. After 2012 you can see changes and not just from ageing.

Wouldn't Kirk have ran people off if he thought they were bad for Prince? I mean, after all, Kirk seems to be the longest person in Prince's circle. I am not privy to their relationship, but I would imagine that Kirk could be firm with Prince and not be a yes man. I could be wrong. What you said reminds me of Jill Jone's summary at Vanity's funeral about those around Prince.

Why would Prince feel scared? According to Judith Hill, he said he had to fight to get back into his body after the OD on the plane. I always found that odd, if he did say it. Did he see something that scared him in death? If so, why would he continue to take meds that were not prescribed?

nelcp777 said:

prizefight said:

Just from looking at pictures I would guestimate other issues (either same hip or the other one) started manifesting as of 2012/13 on. Someone I know assisted him after surgery. Then other people came in and did not take care of him or monitor him. As far as I know, he passed away due to enablers, accidental drug purchase or on purpose? and non-care. There was obviously no one there to tell him to rest and eat. He kept going, probably because he felt scared. There was something wrong at least a year prior. If he was taking fentanyl and no percocet which he was used to, then that started a different host of problems. If you look at him 2010-12, he's in good form. Pay attention to his skin and under eyes and cane usage. After 2012 you can see changes and not just from ageing.

Wouldn't Kirk have ran people off if he thought they were bad for Prince? I mean, after all, Kirk seems to be the longest person in Prince's circle. I am not privy to their relationship, but I would imagine that Kirk could be firm with Prince and not be a yes man. I could be wrong. What you said reminds me of Jill Jone's summary at Vanity's funeral about those around Prince.

Why would Prince feel scared? According to Judith Hill, he said he had to fight to get back into his body after the OD on the plane. I always found that odd, if he did say it. Did he see something that scared him in death? If so, why would he continue to take meds that were not prescribed?

I don't think knowing Prince for years gives anyone a voice when you're being paid unless you're willing to forego that check. Prince ran off people. I'm not sure I understand the quote from Judith? Once the body is addicted the body needs it. It's like any other drug use. That much time on it, needs to be dealt with a doctor. Cold turkey would have consequences. But so did overdosing.

prizefight said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

purplerabbithole: I appreciate this observation and the one about Mani...very thought-provoking and nuanced. Much more than my own. Now I go a few shades darker and ask this: outer circle/inner circle/wives/family...you name it...might there be a hint, a shadow of passive aggressiveness in their neglect of their friends-husbands-employer's death spiral? Sub-conscious you-made-your-bed uncaring for the infidelities, emotional neglect, abrupt firings, hurt feelings about smallish-checks and no billing or musical credit, never-to-be-spoken-of payback for all the Princey things that may have just looked like celebrity behavior to us but from the inside felt cruel?

Sadly, all of the above. Purplerabbithole and Bohdi. Tragically.

I don’t know how others are reacting to this breach in the dam of denial but I’m very close to having an out of body experience of grief and horror that all this was predictable from way back when, it could not have ended any other way (for the control freak to lose control) that there was no love to save him at the end because he never really knew what love was. Could sing about it, didn’t know how to recognize or nurture it. That the price of genius is never being comfortable in this world. Early on this thread I posited that Prince, like the Greek heroes, carried within himself the seeds of his own destruction…I called it Greek tragedy, Chanhassen-style. That’s the cerebral take. What I sob about now is the Org. contribution that some kind soul posted shortly after Prince died. The loving take. The person posting was looking at pictures from the P&M shows and practically shouted out’…how could people NOT see what was happening to him? All I wanted to do when I saw the pictures was wrap him in my arms , hold him and give him something to eat.’ Maybe all he ever needed from the beginning…

Bodhitheblackdog said:

prizefight said:

Sadly, all of the above. Purplerabbithole and Bohdi. Tragically.

I don’t know how others are reacting to this breach in the dam of denial but I’m very close to having an out of body experience of grief and horror that all this was predictable from way back when, it could not have ended any other way (for the control freak to lose control) that there was no love to save him at the end because he never really knew what love was. Could sing about it, didn’t know how to recognize or nurture it. That the price of genius is never being comfortable in this world. Early on this thread I posited that Prince, like the Greek heroes, carried within himself the seeds of his own destruction…I called it Greek tragedy, Chanhassen-style. That’s the cerebral take. What I sob about now is the Org. contribution that some kind soul posted shortly after Prince died. The loving take. The person posting was looking at pictures from the P&M shows and practically shouted out’…how could people NOT see what was happening to him? All I wanted to do when I saw the pictures was wrap him in my arms , hold him and give him something to eat.’ Maybe all he ever needed from the beginning…

What you just wrote grieves me to no end.

purplefam99 said:

Gosh I know people can be awful, heck I'm awful too Sometimes. But was there not one person who was a big giant " NO Person" in his life and still stayed around and just bugged him anyway. Any one singular person to say dude I really do care for you and I'm not on your payroll or if you kick me off I'll still be up your ass any one Person to love him that way, the hard way???!!! love is doing the loving when it is hard, when It is easy that's nice but doesn't really count. Not saying anyone should stay when they feel uncomfortable. But stubborn knukleheaded arrogant behavior that obviously Needed a strong personality to quell it, so sad there was not One person he ran into willing to be that thorn.

There were maybe three people that were. But none in the recent years to my knowledge. There are so many people who now claim that they loved him and he them, but its all crap. If he were loved, effort would have been made.

i've said from the gitgo, that i would have kidnapped him i'm sure some of us fans would be crazy enough to do it but how much did we even know at the time? It wouldn't have been pretty, prince, as paranoid as he was would have thought we were trying to harm him, but we could have done it. Thing is, the only thing truly amiss out of all the years of watching him, not counting a couple in the early 80's, was the plane thing.

I am enjoying reading all the thoughtful posts on this thread and all done in a civil and respectful manner ...and Bodhi, your last post made me pause and say a prayer for Prince

prizefight said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

As shocked as we all were at the ME's report of the cause of death, this is more horrific. Prince, this genius, this wealthy, powerful, much-loved international icon died of NEGLECT. This was no oops-wrong-pill death; this was an in-your-face death spiral and those who were in his space averted their eyes. A sickening realization: at the end of this precious life suffused with love and sex, and Lovesexy, and bodies galore and more love and what passes for love...there was no one left, no one there who loved him enought to fight a down and dirty battle for his life. He died alone...and I'm not talking about the elevator.

Succintly put. The cause of death was NEGLECT. He couldn't nor wouldn't get those items on his own. Didn't know how.

Prince always got what he wanted from teh time he was 18 and surrounded himself with enablers and yes men for the rest of his career. I wouldn't call him "neglected" in any sense at all. Coddled and enabled? Sure. Sucked up to? Oh yes. It wouldn't shock me at all to learn that some people in his circle maybe recognized a problem and perhaps TRIED to help but quickly found themselves "banished ones" for their efforts.

Prince's staff knew who buttered their bread and who made The Fucking Rules in Paisley Park. I don't think it's fair to blame his "underlings" for not doing enough. The only one to blame is whoever bought him the lethal pills but Prince is not faultless nor in the clear either for what ultimately happened to him regarding that. I feel confident that he asked someone to get the meds he wanted/needed and that that person knew he/she better fucking well do it.

another good way to "help" him would have been to boycott everything he did until he got help but again, we didn't really know shit. I do know his fans are stubborn and mean enough to do it too, you guys are all assholes, so we coulda given him the tough love he needed. Let his money really run out and see how many of the hangers on would still be around or how long he could maintain his lifestyle which is likely a factor in his continuous physical overuse of his body.

herb4 said:

prizefight said:

Succintly put. The cause of death was NEGLECT. He couldn't nor wouldn't get those items on his own. Didn't know how.

Prince always got what he wanted from teh time he was 18 and surrounded himself with enablers and yes men for the rest of his career. I wouldn't call him "neglected" in any sense at all. Coddled and enabled? Sure. Sucked up to? Oh yes. It wouldn't shock me at all to learn that some people in his circle maybe recognized a problem and perhaps TRIED to help but quickly found themselves "banished ones" for their efforts.

Prince's staff knew who buttered their bread and who made The Fucking Rules in Paisley Park. I don't think it's fair to blame his "underlings" for not doing enough. The only one to blame is whoever bought him the lethal pills but Prince is not faultless nor in the clear either for what ultimately happened to him regarding that. I feel confident that he asked someone to get the meds he wanted/needed and that that person knew he/she better fucking well do it.

I agree with what you've said. Someone said to me that it isn't fair that someone may go to jail for "doing their job" meaning whomever enabled the drugs into his hands.

Prince is ultimately responsible for his choices. He put people in line of his care that he felt, and did manipulate.

My point is this - is it your job to do something illegal for anyone? No. Do we have a responsibility to each other as humans to do the right thing? I guess that depends on your moral compass and belief systems. But in the regular world, I guess, no, right? Everyman for himself.

Prince set it up that way. And if someone didn't do his bidding someone else would. So, in that respect you are correct. Would you rather do the right thing and not have a paycheck or be a willing enabler?

Prince could also be manipulated and handled. Very few people did that. Theres more to say on the subject but it would be a moot point at this time.

Prince's neglect was simple. Love. Care. The real kind that will sacrifice. Since he bought people, he didn't have that. Couldn't trust because of all the experiences in between the pockets of fame and fortune.

So who's to blame? Everyone around him who knew and himself.

At some point we have to become our brother's keeper or our humanity perishes.

purplerabbithole said:

Money is a factor, don't get me wrong. But I give the people in his outer circle a bit of a break. His inner circle (who helped facilitate or knew exactly what he was doing and said nothing) they can go fvck themselves.

1Sasha said:

I agree with the comments here about the people around him. They knew. If not all of them, then many of them. And they let the paycheck, or the house payment, or the car installment, rule what they did for him. He was their cash register, plain and simple.

[Edited 6/27/17 12:36pm]

I doubt that his inner circle thought the problem was as sever as it was and, honestly, I doubt that his addiction was all that serious myself - at least until the DEA rescheduled what he was taking (likely Vicodin) and made them seriously difficult to procure, even for someone with Prince's means (hence the scripts in other people's names and the eventually turning to the black market).

My guess would be that Prince, over time, had built up a tolerance probably approaching the 50 - 60mg/day range, which is more than enough to get hooked and way more than is legally allowed to be prescribed. I take 10-15mg Norco/day which is enough to keep both my pain and any potential addiciton issues in check but I've lost my medication before and even though I had no serious W/D symptoms, I could still feel a difference without it. Physically as well as mentally.

If I'm right, and Prince was taking these things for as long as I suspect, his tolerance level would have reached the point of serious withdrawals if he stopped abruptly and he would require tapering (gradully weaning off them and taking less every day). Stopping all at once would seriously fuck him up (flu like symptoms. Ring a bell?) This is sort of what I mean when I keep addressing certain individual(s) and attempting to explain to them why it's perfectly reasonable that Prince, from all outward appearances, did not have a "serious drug problem" - at least in the traditional sense - and how he was able to function at a high level and appear "normal".

When he suddenly found himself in need of more than what is legally prescribable as a schedule 2 controlled substance, he did what he always did: got people to do his bidding and do what he asked. Which resulted in the "hot" counterfeit pill he ate.

herb4 said:

purplerabbithole said:

Money is a factor, don't get me wrong. But I give the people in his outer circle a bit of a break. His inner circle (who helped facilitate or knew exactly what he was doing and said nothing) they can go fvck themselves.

[Edited 6/27/17 12:36pm]

I doubt that his inner circle thought the problem was as sever as it was and, honestly, I doubt that his addiction was all that serious myself - at least until the DEA rescheduled what he was taking (likely Vicodin) and made them seriously difficult to procure, even for someone with Prince's means (hence the scripts in other people's names and the eventually turning to the black market).

My guess would be that Prince, over time, had built up a tolerance probably approaching the 50 - 60mg/day range, which is more than enough to get hooked and way more than is legally allowed to be prescribed. I take 10-15mg Norco/day which is enough to keep both my pain and any potential addiciton issues in check but I've lost my medication before and even though I had no serious W/D symptoms, I could still feel a difference without it. Physically as well as mentally.

If I'm right, and Prince was taking these things for as long as I suspect, his tolerance level would have reached the point of serious withdrawals if he stopped abruptly and he would require tapering (gradully weaning off them and taking less every day). Stopping all at once would seriously fuck him up (flu like symptoms. Ring a bell?) This is sort of what I mean when I keep addressing certain individual(s) and attempting to explain to them why it's perfectly reasonable that Prince, from all outward appearances, did not have a "serious drug problem" - at least in the traditional sense - and how he was able to function at a high level and appear "normal".

When he suddenly found himself in need of more than what is legally prescribable as a schedule 2 controlled substance, he did what he always did: got people to do his bidding and do what he asked. Which resulted in the "hot" counterfeit pill he ate.

I agree with all that you've said except yes the inner circle knew it was bad. Severe. As early as ten years ago.

it is illegal to prescribe meds in another person's name. Its been done for years with him.

Coming down the first time from opiod use after the surgery is what prompted "The Breakdown".

nelcp777 said:

prizefight said:

things

Wouldn't Kirk have ran people off if he thought they were bad for Prince? I mean, after all, Kirk seems to be the longest person in Prince's circle. I am not privy to their relationship, but I would imagine that Kirk could be firm with Prince and not be a yes man. I could be wrong. What you said reminds me of Jill Jone's summary at Vanity's funeral about those around Prince.

Why would Pr If so, why would he continue to take meds that were not prescribed?

Because he was addicted to them and likely couldn't procure them through legal means. Addicts live for today and will always kick tomorrow.

PeteSilas said:

i've said from the gitgo, that i would have kidnapped him i'm sure some of us fans would be crazy enough to do it but how much did we even know at the time? It wouldn't have been pretty, prince, as paranoid as he was would have thought we were trying to harm him, but we could have done it. Thing is, the only thing truly amiss out of all the years of watching him, not counting a couple in the early 80's, was the plane thing.

Truth is none of us know what we would have done and it's all 20/20 hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking. You guys would have done exactly as Prince asked you to do I think.

YOu are kind of implying that karma thing again, I believe.

The people we love hurt us sometimes. Hell, there are people we don't like and avoid. But passively aggressively letting any human being whose job it is is to just make music (and not its not like he's Hitler) spiral into a painful lonely death...that's too much karma.

He couldn't have been all that bad. Even Mayte wouldn't have passively aggressively let him die. If she knew how to help, she would have helped. I am convinced. Yes, he made his bed. But I don't think he meant to destroy himself. He made his bed and I think either people didn't know what to do, didn't know the full extent of teh problem, didn't understand him. were in denial about the severity due to self interest, thought he was somehow superhuman, or had already been booted from the circle so therefore weren't around to even witness how bad it was getting. I imagine there was some indifference but I think anyone wishing this for him is beyond cruel..and therefore they have their own issues.

Bodhitheblackdog said:

purplerabbithole said:

so no affection or sympathy for him whatsoever from any of those people he spent hours rehearsing with or doing after shows with??? All those humorous stories about ping pong and practical jokes--just made up or not really funny at the time but they used them anyway as fodder or something to talk about in interviews.)

Maybe, its a little more complicated than that. Maybe they suspected but couldn't confirm. Maybe they knew but didn't know how to go about approaching him or didn't know the severity of it. . Maybe when they did attempt to say anything or hint at it, he fired them or decided to go a different direction musically. He was a compartmentalized man. If we are to believe Mayte, he kept secrets even from her and she never actually saw the drug taking behavior. Enabling is probably more complicated than just...he pays my check--I don't care if he dies. If he dies, who pays the checks BTW???

Money is a factor, don't get me wrong. But I give the people in his outer circle a bit of a break. His inner circle (who helped facilitate or knew exactly what he was doing and said nothing) they can go fvck themselves.

[Edited 6/27/17 12:36pm]

purplerabbithole: I appreciate this observation and the one about Mani...very thought-provoking and nuanced. Much more than my own. Now I go a few shades darker and ask this: outer circle/inner circle/wives/family...you name it...might there be a hint, a shadow of passive aggressiveness in their neglect of their friends-husbands-employer's death spiral? Sub-conscious you-made-your-bed uncaring for the infidelities, emotional neglect, abrupt firings, hurt feelings about smallish-checks and no billing or musical credit, never-to-be-spoken-of payback for all the Princey things that may have just looked like celebrity behavior to us but from the inside felt cruel?

[Edited 6/27/17 16:00pm]

Also remember Prince was a fucking G his whole life, in the way he carried himself. He wasn't one to complain about pain or make self-deprecating jokes that would hint to any problems. So his confident, serious, in-control appearance probably literally made people around him think he was invincible. So what if you see him pop a pill here and there, it's fucking PRINCE, he's probably just feeling a little off. His popping pills was obviously done in secret for the most part. The only thing that annoys me about this whole situation is the 4/15 overdose. This should have shattered any 'Prince is invincible and knows what he's doing' thoughts any of his circle may have had. It was 10000% obvious that he had a very bad problem then, the man almost lost his life. Somebody should have been with him the night of the 20th.. he was almost 60, obv had a life-threatening problem, and proved just a week earlier that it was becoming out of his control. Why this wasn't eye-opening to his circle will always be mystifiying to me.

nelcp777 said:

Please don't tell me the two people were his half sister and step brother--because we all know that.

I don't doubt you have some inside information. But didn't you say you knew the people who helped him after the hip surgery. Is that all or did you work in Paisley Park for 20 years or something??? How are you knowledgable about all these other nuances (or is some of it speculation or assumptions based on your experiences with Prince) ? How would you know what Manuela felt or what was happening in their relationship which ended before his hip surgery. I am not being sarcastic.

Also you mentioned people from his past who knew and two people you knew of who got booted. Why aren't they saying anything now?

If people were out of the circle, what was stopping them from speaking out about drug addiction? I have said that ripping this dude a new one in a public arena probably wouldn't work, but never saying anything about illegal actions or something like that.. Geez, I would think someone would have done a tell-all already.

I don't know--it just seems like there should have been more leaks by now.

off-topic. What the hell would make a man live a life like this?? Spending his whole life buying 'love' (why bother at all if you know it might be false?) , working too hard, having to manuever and deceive and manipulate all the time, reinventing himself constantly, eliminating his own name, covering himself in makeup and ruining his own health with uncomfortable shoes??? OUtside of the music, Prince Rogers Nelson sounded like a man full of fear, distrust, insecurity and even self-loathing. Maybe if he didn't have the talent (which maybe blinded him as well as others to the severity of his issues), he would have been better off. He would have gotten some help. Maybe Paisley was more Lala land than hollywood. Full of people deceiving themselves led by a man in constant denial of who was. But I have to think that at least in moments he understood what love and kindness felt like. YOu can't pull artistic expression from a vacuum??? How would you even know how to represent it?

prizefight said:

purplerabbithole said:

so no affection or sympathy for him whatsoever from any of those people he spent hours rehearsing with or doing after shows with??? All those humorous stories about ping pong and practical jokes--just made up or not really funny at the time but they used them anyway as fodder or something to talk about in interviews.)

Maybe, its a little more complicated than that. Maybe they suspected but couldn't confirm. Maybe they knew but didn't know how to go about approaching him or didn't know the severity of it. . Maybe when they did attempt to say anything or hint at it, he fired them or decided to go a different direction musically. He was a compartmentalized man. If we are to believe Mayte, he kept secrets even from her and she never actually saw the drug taking behavior. Enabling is probably more complicated than just...he pays my check--I don't care if he dies. If he dies, who pays the checks BTW???

Money is a factor, don't get me wrong. But I give the people in his outer circle a bit of a break. His inner circle (who helped facilitate or knew exactly what he was doing and said nothing) they can go fvck themselves.

[Edited 6/27/17 12:36pm]

You have to remember he was also masterful at manipulating. And if others on the outer of end of the ring sensed something, they may have been concerned but probably not confident to say anything but almost everyone knew. If they didn't know intimately they knew via rumors in the camp and word spreads fast.

To say something when the plane goes down is TOO LATE. To not keep him in the hospital is TOO LATE. And I know many people here would say "Well if I was there..." The fact is probably not. He did allow these people in, for a reason. Very few would have stood up. I know of only two and they were dismissed.

[Edited 6/27/17 16:26pm]

[Edited 6/27/17 16:36pm]

[Edited 6/27/17 17:02pm]

[Edited 6/27/17 17:11pm]

prizefight said:

Bodhitheblackdog said:

Well I feel comfortable concluding that at least one person had the knowledge of his addiction and the leverage/credibility to go public and ensure that even though she was on to her next that he might have been saved. If she ever really loved him she would have. I think it went something like this: Mani: you're an addict and you need to get help or you'll die. Prince: how much do you want to just go away and keep quiet? Mani: $$$$$$?!? See ya. Prince knew that everyone (in his circle) had their price so his much reported sadness at the demise of this marriage wasn't because it ended, IMO, but that she chose money over him. She didn't stick around to fight the lonely battle with him...she took his money to spend with EB. She didn't fight to save him. She sold him out.

Divorce was over women not pills. He basically made her divorce him because he couldnt because of the JW.

That wouldn't be true.

JWs believe in divorce...especially under the circumstances of adultery.

M2 would know that since she converted to JW to be more appealing to P and encourage him to commit adultery and leave M1 for her.

herb4 said:

PeteSilas said:

i've said from the gitgo, that i would have kidnapped him i'm sure some of us fans would be crazy enough to do it but how much did we even know at the time? It wouldn't have been pretty, prince, as paranoid as he was would have thought we were trying to harm him, but we could have done it. Thing is, the only thing truly amiss out of all the years of watching him, not counting a couple in the early 80's, was the plane thing.

Truth is none of us know what we would have done and it's all 20/20 hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking. You guys would have done exactly as Prince asked you to do I think.