PennyPurple said:

WB really let him get his way, for being brand new and never cutting an album before.

.

And the pattern of him not wanting anybody around and wanting to do things alone, his way, & only his way has begun.

There's a lot in play here. Owen's ability to "sell", Mo's dedication to his "artists" and backing them to develop their vision, and P's talent and determination. In that interview with Owen (when he first met Prince), he describes him as a "40 yr. old CEO" who knew what he wanted. Sueann says the same, "he had a vision, but not a plan". P was a self-starter. In any other business, he'd have been one of those people who started at the bottom and within a few short years, would have owned the company.

PennyPurple said:

Thank you bsprout and misslink.

you're welcome

LBrent said:

Just found this in an old thread about Sue Ann Carwell:

http://prince.org/msg/5/153075

I felt bad for her in the book. I wonder if her career would have fared even better had she stayed with Prince and not gone to L.A. But what else was she supposed to do when she had a promising offer? What would Prince have done? It seems like Prince was really hurt by her leaving; the book portrays his actions toward her as positively cruel. Her leaving must have brought back memories of abandonment for him.

PennyPurple said:

bsprout said:

Ch. 7 - Record Sense - pgs. 103-111

Main people: Mo Ostin, Lenny Waronker, Tommy Vicari, Andre Anderson, Tony Saunders, Sly Stone, Stevie Wonder

Warner Bros. agrees to let Prince at least coproduce his first album. They don't, however, yield on letting Prince be the sole producer, despite repeated tries from Owen Husney and Prince. Warner doesn't think that Prince has the necessary "record sense" - record industry lingo for someone who can create a sound that's ready to be played on the radio.

Warner suggests Maurice White of Earth, Wind & Fire to be the co-producer. Prince emphatically declines the offer, as Husney assumed he would, arguing that the band's sound is dated and generic.

Husney suggests an in-studio audition to prove Prince is ready to solo produce, an idea that had worked well previously with CBS and with an early meeting with Lenny Waronker. Company execs who hadn't seen Prince record agree and Husney tricks Prince into recording in front of them. Prince thought the execs walking through the studio were janitors.

This session was enough to convince the execs that Prince could solo produce, however they insist on an executive producer, and select Tommy Vicari, a veteran recording engineer. Prince wanted to record in Minneapolis, and starts work at the Sound 80 studio. Vicari prefers a more sophisticated L.A. studio. They finally compromise on a Sausalito stuido near San Francisco called the Record Plant. They rent a house and Prince moves in, along with Andre Anderson, Vicar, Husney, and Husney's wife, Britt.

Recording at the Record Plant, Prince records each song himself and does not allow any guests, phone calls, or soicalizing whatsoever in the room. He becomes deadly serious and exacting, and the songs he records demonstrate this. He barely speaks to his exec producer Vicari. Eventually he brings in David Z. to do background vocals and this lightens the mood.

The album goes well over budget due to Prince's perfectionism and the slow recording pace. Warner doesn't object to this but Waronker flies in to oversee a session. Prince erupts and insists that he leave the studio. Waronker realizes they have signed an artist who will not be satisfied with anything less than total control over his career.

Prince becomes increasingly less interested in Vicari as exec producer. He plays a practical joke on him one night in the rental house, involving a dummy dressed as Husney with a knife in its back. Upon coming home and discovering the dummy, Vicari is really screaing and terrified; he thinks Husney has been killed. According to Husney, Prince really wants him out at this point, and Vicari is heartbroken.

At this point, Andre Anderson also wants to contribute but is left out creatively, because Prince wants to make the whole album himself. Prince also seals himself off from other musicians and studios at the Record Plant; he even has a bodyguard stationed at the door to his studio. He eventually begins socializing with a 21-year old bass player named Tony Saunders, who soon introduces him to his friend, Sly Stone. Sly and Prince do some playing together, and sly teaches Prince his "slap bass" technique used on his hit song, "Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin)."

Prince leaves for L.A. in Jan. 1978 to add finishing touches, and Warner plans the album release for early spring ("For You"). Some observe that, while Prince has demonstrated his musical ability and technical skills, his album is not all that engaging, unklike Sly Stone and Stevie Wonder, who have both released energetic records. Prince does not see it this way and believes that his diligence and perfectionism in the studio have created a stunning debut.

[Edited 5/5/17 15:01pm]

[Edited 5/5/17 15:08pm]

WB really let him get his way, for being brand new and never cutting an album before.

.

And the pattern of him not wanting anybody around and wanting to do things alone, his way, & only his way has begun.

They sure did, didn't they? As I was reading about how it all went down before the album was released, I was amazed and impressed at how this little teenaged 'no-one' managed to convince WB execs of his talent. What a pair of cojones on him, lol.

As for his beef with WB in the 90s, I've read that despite his resentment because they owned his masters, etc., WB was very good to Prince and gave him a lot of leeway. As you said, the pattern of control began early with Prince. I think once it was firmly in place WB had no idea how to reign him back in. I read he would even climb on top of the execs' desks to make his case for whatever new idea he was selling at the time. He was a force to be reckoned with, that's for sure.

gandorb said:

I'm on board now after some snafus. I knew Prince was controlling, but his rigidity about it sounds exhausting here for everyone including himself.I was so glad to hear he could still be a kid as described in the hilarious water gun restaurant prank. [Edited 5/6/17 8:17am]

Welcome!

bsprout said:

gandorb said:

I'm on board now after some snafus. I knew Prince was controlling, but his rigidity about it sounds exhausting here for everyone including himself.I was so glad to hear he could still be a kid as described in the hilarious water gun restaurant prank. [Edited 5/6/17 8:17am]

Welcome!

One of the very fun parts of the project was getting to know Sueann. I just sent her a copy of the book, so it will be interesting to hear her reaction. Her story is really an incredible one, so many twists and turns.

AlexHahn said:

bsprout said:

Welcome!

One of the very fun parts of the project was getting to know Sueann. I just sent her a copy of the book, so it will be interesting to hear her reaction. Her story is really an incredible one, so many twists and turns.

Alex, I am really enjoying your book so far. It is the best written of the handful I have read on Prince. I didn't know anything about the interesting Sueann storyline before. It may have been referenced in some of the other books I have read, but you fleshed it out here. I really felt for her. Her story in regards to Prince seems like a microcosm of his complex way of relating to others, at least in the early days of his career: Nurturing mentor, controlling, demanding loyalty in a rigidly defined way, cutting people off when they disappointed him or he tired of their musical contributions, perhaps periods of testing the water for reconciliation, yet seemingly letting grudges getting in the way of doing so. I imagine this may have cost him as much pain as those around him (at least in that it made him so lonely).

Her brother mentions some kind of disagreement with P and Owen in this stage. He also mentions the other people she worked with.

At the age of 18, he was already starting to create a side project with Carwell & pushing his friends away.

.

His album wasn't doing the best, I wonder why he started a side project, at that time?

.

And he would do these same things the rest of his life. Take people in and push them away.

PennyPurple said:

At the age of 18, he was already starting to create a side project with Carwell & pushing his friends away.

.

His album wasn't doing the best, I wonder why he started a side project, at that time?

.

And he would do these same things the rest of his life. Take people in and push them away.

I can't remember which interview (could have even been the high school one) where he talked about wanting to produce others, so the desire was there from the beginning as well. He's said he was never really interested in the "numbers" re album sales - mostly just wanted to get the music out.

This is a great interview with Owen. He starts discussing P around the 12:00 mark.

Misslink88 said:

This is a great interview with Owen. He starts discussing P around the 12:00 mark.

You know, to me, that video makes P's comment, 'the manager's name escapes me' make some sort of sense.
.
Husney was a 'surrogate parent', along with his wife. Then he (Husney) 'sold his contract' (for the best of reasons it seems). To P, I can only imagine that this must have seemed like abandonment all over again - just like he experienced with his natural parents - and it hurt.
.
Hell hath no fury like a Prince scorned, it seems...

Dibblekins said:

Misslink88 said:

This is a great interview with Owen. He starts discussing P around the 12:00 mark.

You know, to me, that video makes P's comment, 'the manager's name escapes me' make some sort of sense.
.
Husney was a 'surrogate parent', along with his wife. Then he (Husney) 'sold his contract' (for the best of reasons it seems). To P, I can only imagine that this must have seemed like abandonment all over again - just like he experienced with his natural parents - and it hurt.
.
Hell hath no fury like a Prince scorned, it seems...

Interesting point!

Misslink88 said:

gandorb said:

So since Prince had all these side jobs, the songs are probably in his vault, and the ones he worked with, won't & didn't get credit?

This interview with Owen Husney was great for me to be able to humanize him and gain context for his relationship with P.

Thanx for posting it.

Chapter 9 ~ Against The Wall Pgs 123-128

It was April 1978, his 1^st album was about to come out. Moon was credit as co writer of Soft & Wet, Tommy Vicari received executive producer title, everything else was credited to Prince.

.

The album didn’t get very many positive reviews. It only sold 150,00 copies, reached 21 on Billboards Soul Chart but only 163 on the Pop Chart. More attention was being paid to Saturday Night Fever & Grease.

.

Prince believe the album was good, and the reason it wasn’t getting out there was because it wasn’t being promoted enough. He started complaining. Russ Thyret told Owen Husney that Prince didn’t understand the music business, and Husney agreed.

.

Husney and Prince split ways. Husney refused to bring Prince a space heater like he asked because he was waiting on an important phone call about a potiental concert tour and he got tired of being Princes gofer. He asked Prince if Pepe could fetch it for him, Prince became indigent. Husney told him to F-off and get it himself. Later after tempers had cooled, Husney thought he and Prince should part ways. Prince asked him to stay. Prince wrote Husney a 3 page letter outlining his duties, which was filled with the demands that Husney didn’t want. Husney kept with his decision to quit.

.

Pepe Willie stepped in to help, Princes business affairs was in the chaos, & Warner Brothers were becoming concerned at how fast Prince went thru money. Six months had went buy since the release of the album, and they hadn’t even played a show.

.

Pepe hastily organized two shows, the second was to be attended by Warner Brothers management. If it didn’t go well, WB would finance a tour. Prince and the band were stressed and nothing went right. WB decided Prince wasn’t ready for an official tour. Prince was heartbroken. At this point WB had to appoint a professional management team. They chose Steve Fargnoli, & Bob Cavallo.

.

Prince started dating Kim Upsher. He called his old friend Paul Mitchell who dated Upsher in high school to tell him that he now had a contract with Warner Brothers and was dating Upsher. It was obvious how Prince had already changed from relying on friends and family for food and shelter, and Duane & Paul for protection. Mitchell replied to Princes statement, “yeah, I figured you would be.”

......................................................................

There are conflicting stories out there about how Husney left, it has been said that Prince fired Husney because Husney told Pepe Willie that he wasn’t going to throw his agency away for someone who might not make it. Prince felt that Husney didn’t have his back and fired him. Maybe Laura Tiebert can answer that question for us.

.

I think Prince found that it was harder then he thought and at that point really couldn’t do it all himself.

PennyPurple said:

Chapter 9 ~ Against The Wall Pgs 123-128

It was April 1978, his 1^st album was about to come out. Moon was credit as co writer of Soft & Wet, Tommy Vicari received executive producer title, everything else was credited to Prince.

.

The album didn’t get very many positive reviews. It only sold 150,00 copies, reached 21 on Billboards Soul Chart but only 163 on the Pop Chart. More attention was being paid to Saturday Night Fever & Grease.

.

Prince believe the album was good, and the reason it wasn’t getting out there was because it wasn’t being promoted enough. He started complaining. Russ Thyret told Owen Husney that Prince didn’t understand the music business, and Husney agreed.

.

Husney and Prince split ways. Husney refused to bring Prince a space heater like he asked because he was waiting on an important phone call about a potiental concert tour and he got tired of being Princes gofer. He asked Prince if Pepe could fetch it for him, Prince became indigent. Husney told him to F-off and get it himself. Later after tempers had cooled, Husney thought he and Prince should part ways. Prince asked him to stay. Prince wrote Husney a 3 page letter outlining his duties, which was filled with the demands that Husney didn’t want. Husney kept with his decision to quit.

.

Pepe Willie stepped in to help, Princes business affairs was in the chaos, & Warner Brothers were becoming concerned at how fast Prince went thru money. Six months had went buy since the release of the album, and they hadn’t even played a show.

.

Pepe hastily organized two shows, the second was to be attended by Warner Brothers management. If it didn’t go well, WB would finance a tour. Prince and the band were stressed and nothing went right. WB decided Prince wasn’t ready for an official tour. Prince was heartbroken. At this point WB had to appoint a professional management team. They chose Steve Fargnoli, & Bob Cavallo.

.

Prince started dating Kim Upsher. He called his old friend Paul Mitchell who dated Upsher in high school to tell him that he now had a contract with Warner Brothers and was dating Upsher. It was obvious how Prince had already changed from relying on friends and family for food and shelter, and Duane & Paul for protection. Mitchell replied to Princes statement, “yeah, I figured you would be.”

......................................................................

There are conflicting stories out there about how Husney left, it has been said that Prince fired Husney because Husney told Pepe Willie that he wasn’t going to throw his agency away for someone who might not make it. Prince felt that Husney didn’t have his back and fired him. Maybe Laura Tiebert can answer that question for us.

.

I think Prince found that it was harder then he thought and at that point really couldn’t do it all himself.

According to Jill Jones and a lot of other people he dated Kim in high school.

laurarichardson said:

According to Jill Jones and a lot of other people he dated Kim in high school.

The book said that Paul Mitchell dated Kim in high school. Was Jill Jones around when he was in High School?

.

It looks like the Authors might have done an interview with Paul Mitchell.

[Edited 5/8/17 4:38am]

PennyPurple said:

laurarichardson said:

According to Jill Jones and a lot of other people he dated Kim in high school.

The book said that Paul Mitchell dated Kim in high school. Was Jill Jones around when he was in High School?

.

It looks like the Authors might have done an interview with Paul Mitchell.

[Edited 5/8/17 4:38am]

No, but in other books she was listed as a girlfriend from high school and Jill knew Kim as she was still going with Prince when Jill came along. She has talked about how Prince paid for Kim's funeral.

See Kim mentioned on this board as his girlfriend from high school. I do not doubt she dated Paul but Prince seems like he was a sneaky girl stealing dude even at a young age. I know Andre has discussed how they competed for the same girls with Prince pursuing girls he was already dating.

http://prince.org/msg/5/138457

[Edited 5/8/17 5:43am]

PennyPurple said:

laurarichardson said:

According to Jill Jones and a lot of other people he dated Kim in high school.

The book said that Paul Mitchell dated Kim in high school. Was Jill Jones around when he was in High School?

.

It looks like the Authors might have done an interview with Paul Mitchell.

[Edited 5/8/17 4:38am]

I do not doubt she dated Paul but Prince seems like he was a sneaky girl stealing dude even at a young age. I know Andre has discussed how they competed for the same girls with Prince pursuing girls he was already dating. He could have been running around with her without Paul's knowledge only making it known to him later.

I know numerous time she has been refered to has his high school girlfriend so has Susan Moonsie. I think he got around even back then or just has a lot of friends who were girls.

laurarichardson said:

PennyPurple said:

The book said that Paul Mitchell dated Kim in high school. Was Jill Jones around when he was in High School?

.

It looks like the Authors might have done an interview with Paul Mitchell.

[Edited 5/8/17 4:38am]

I do not doubt she dated Paul but Prince seems like he was a sneaky girl stealing dude even at a young age. I know Andre has discussed how they competed for the same girls with Prince pursuing girls he was already dating. He could have been running around with her without Paul's knowledge only making it known to him later.

I know numerous time she has been refered to has his high school girlfriend so has Susan Moonsie. I think he got around even back then or just has a lot of friends who were girls.

I thought the same thing - Susan Moonsie was said to be his gf in high school. Is it possible he met Patricie Rushen in CA when he was recording at the Record Plant (as he's about to lay down "I Wanna Be Your Lover" which is supposedly written for her). He also met Sheila E. in CA in September, 1978.

LBrent said:

This interview with Owen Husney was great for me to be able to humanize him and gain context for his relationship with P.

Thanx for posting it.

Ditto, LBrent

precioux said:

LBrent said:

This interview with Owen Husney was great for me to be able to humanize him and gain context for his relationship with P.

Thanx for posting it.

Ditto, LBrent

Laura posted this interview with Perry "PJ" Jones in this thread : http://prince.org/msg/7/442066

This interview tells about how WB basically made him P's manager after Husney left to keep P from going with Bob Marley's manager. It adds a bit more insight cuz P lived with PJ after Husney and while WB was getting Bob Cavallo ready to manage P.

It was a very crazy time after For You and just before PRINCE.

There's also a story about the PRINCE nekkid/pegasus photoshoot. (PJ was there).

There's also a bit about Q and P's first encounter, and it wasn't the one you're probably thinking about regarding another young male performer who was born in Indiana.

LBrent said:

precioux said:

Ditto, LBrent

Laura posted this interview with Perry "PJ" Jones in this thread : http://prince.org/msg/7/442066

This interview tells about how WB basically made him P's manager after Husney left to keep P from going with Bob Marley's manager. It adds a bit more insight cuz P lived with PJ after Husney and while WB was getting Bob Cavallo ready to manage P.

It was a very crazy time after For You and just before PRINCE.

There's also a story about the PRINCE nekkid/pegasus photoshoot. (PJ was there).

There's also a bit about Q and P's first encounter, and it wasn't the one you're probably thinking about regarding another young male performer who was born in Indiana.

That was a big part that was left out of this book.

LBrent said:

PennyPurple said:

2 TAKE PART IN THE BOOK CLUB YOU MUST HAVE/READ THE BOOK.
PLEASE FOLLOW THE DIRECTIVE OF THE BOOK CLUB OP
STAY ON TOPIC AND PLEASE HELP TO MAKE IT AN ENJOYABLE EXPERIENCE.
THERE ARE ENOUGH AND HAVE BEEN ENOUGH THREADS TO DISCUSS THINGS EXTENSIVELY.

[For Legal Reasons: NO POSTING OF IMAGES OR PICTURES OR CONTENTS FROM THE BOOK, posting the front cover of the book is okay. THE ORG DOES NOT HAVE PERMISSION TO REPRODUCE THE BOOK OR ANY OF ITS CONTENTS - anyone caught doing so shall be dealt with accordingly - luv4u]

[No flaming, baiting, flinging poo of any sort. Discussion to be held in a civil manner. Remember all rules of the org apply. - luv4u]
*******************



Ok this is the official book club thread for The Rise of Prince 1958-1988 by Alex Hahn & Laura Tiebert.

.

Although it is not the 27th yet where I live, it's the 27th somewhere.

.

I thought we would start with Chapter 1, and do the Prologue & Forward at the end. The Chapters seem pretty short.

.

Chapter 1 Pages 48-57

Prince stayed in MN unlike Bob Dylan & became the States favorite son.

“I will always live in MN it’s so cold it keeps the bad people out” ~ Prince

Great Great Grandfather was a slaveholder who married a Cherokee woman (name unknown)

.

Great Grandfather Edward, became a traveling minister, married Emma Hardy

.

Grandfather Clarence became a farmer, married Carrie Jenkins

.

Father John Louis Nelson married Vivian Howard gave birth to Sharon, Lorna, Norrine & John Rodgers, Jr. & had a dog named Prince. Formed a Jazz Trio named Prince Rogers Nelson.

.

Divorced Vivian

Immediately Marries Mattie Shaw 10 months later gives birth to Prince Rogers Nelson, two years later gave birth to Tyka.

.

Mattie Shaw was a twin and they are believed to have been the 1st set of black twins born on the Northside. Mattie moved to Missouri where she married Alfred Jackson, Sr. & Alfred JR was born. They separated and Mattie returned to MN where she became an amateur jazz singer and where she met John Nelson and married.

.

In this chapter it states that John L Nelson was left without any parents before his 18th Birthday, his mother died, but it doesn’t say if his father died or just never had contact after the divorce from Carrie Jenkins. ??

.

So far in the story these siblings to Prince have been born: Sharon, Lorna, Norrine & John, Jr., Alfred, Jr., Prince, Tyka.

---------------------------------------

Did John L Nelson's father die before John was 18 or just did not participate in John's life?

.

It seems both of Prince's parents liked to dress stylish.

I have not read this book so I wanna be clear I have no reason or motivation to put any shade on it.

Just saying though that most of what has been covered here or at least what I have read so far I have already read in most of the Prince bio's I have come across. Ive got 2 from library Im reading right now, one is by Ronin Ro and the other by Mick Wall, some of the sentences or maybe quotes are almost the same in terms of reading about his early years.

Like I said I havn't read the book being discussed and possibly it covers these early years in much more detail even though the general narative is probably well known among Prince fans.

Im just kinda speaking out loud, and maybe its because Ive been reading these other books and stuff I come across r here is reminding me what I already know from other books.

I do note that this book being discussed was originally written a long time back and therefore probably precedes many of the other Prince bios out there.

I appreciate the hard work and the time taken by these authors to put this book together and more than likely I will track down a copy for myself, tbh I have just scrolled through the first few pages of this thread that cover Prince childhood and beginnings of his career. This is a Great thread btw, I think it is an excellent idea to do Prince bookclub.

[Edited 5/9/17 3:16am]

[Edited 5/9/17 3:21am]

[Edited 5/9/17 3:24am]

[Edited 5/9/17 3:26am]

precioux said:

LBrent said:

Laura posted this interview with Perry "PJ" Jones in this thread : http://prince.org/msg/7/442066

This interview tells about how WB basically made him P's manager after Husney left to keep P from going with Bob Marley's manager. It adds a bit more insight cuz P lived with PJ after Husney and while WB was getting Bob Cavallo ready to manage P.

It was a very crazy time after For You and just before PRINCE.

There's also a story about the PRINCE nekkid/pegasus photoshoot. (PJ was there).

There's also a bit about Q and P's first encounter, and it wasn't the one you're probably thinking about regarding another young male performer who was born in Indiana.

Interesting!! I always wondered who the "competition" in New York was..if you remember, Prince was given a gold guitar as "payola" to sign with someone else while he was mulling over whether or not he was going to go with Owen/WB..I think this podcast just answered my question after all this time (I'm about 1/4 of the way through the podcast)..sounds like the competition was Bob Marleys manager/company. Was that the "bombshell"?...maybe I'm confused on that...the problem was that Prince was going over budget with "For You"...going listen to the rest of the podcast [Edited 5/8/17 20:06pm]

The bombshell is WB hooking Prince up with Cavallo.

The record company should never have selected the management of the artist it is a conflict of interest to do this. Keep in mind WB did not go to Prince directly and say that here is a firm we think you should check out. They decided that Cavallo would be his management and had Cavallo send a represenative to him.

Cavallo then received 10k for taking Prince on as a client (WTF)

Remember the mgmt is handling the artist's money and suppose to be working on behalf of the artist when dealing with the record company making deals in the best interest of their client not looking out for WB.

I always wondered how come Cavallo and company never tried to get Prince his master well now we know why.

Pepe Wille said years ago he hooked Prince up with Don Taylor who worked for Chris Blackwell. I do not think the gold guitar was payola. Payola was paying record lables to play certain records on the radio to get maximun radio play.

This was Prince looking for mgmt which WB has no business interfering with at all. I now wonder when Perry found out about this and when he told Prince about it.