jaypotton said:

The level of naïveté and sheer craziness of some people on here never ceases to amaze me even after nearly 20 years! The excuses some people give to explain away their addiction are just incredible and no different then if their addiction was crack rather than Prince's music! Some SANE people on this thread have already said this but I will add my two pence worth because it is simple... 1. There are OFFICIAL releases. 2. There are UNOFFICIAL releases. Official releases should be curated properly and released with the care, quality and attention Prince's legacy deserves. To do that people need to be paid (record company and estate) to ensure it remains a viable business so the releases keep flowing (but we need to realise the law of diminishing returns). Unofficial releases will happen and fans will want to get hold of them (just as we did with bootlegs) BUT NOBODY should get paid for these. Track them down and get hold of them for free by all means but do not support anyone trying to cash in (like all those unofficial releases you can now get from Amazon!) I personally have hundreds of unofficially released Prince tracks of mixed quality. I will definitely buy these in pristine quality when they are officially released because I want that perfect Prince collection but in the meantime I still get a kick out of hearing the bootleg versions (that I have never paid any money for). This guy Ian Boxhill (is that his name) could have just released this for free but he is looking for a payday (hiding behind the fact that this was "for the fans"). He may have a genuine claim for money from the estate if Prince didn't pay him for his Engineer work, but if so then he should have put that in as a claim to the estate as a creditor (yes it will take years to get his fee). Instead he secretly worked on this material for personal commercial gain. He MUST have known the estate's lawyers and Universal Music Publishing would shut him down??? And what about the digital platforms like iTunes and Amazon? Do they not question the RIGHTS issues before making content available? Not saying I don't want to have these tracks, I do, but will not/did not pay for them! AND if they get an official release in future I will buy them and won't whine about it (am hoping for. Vault release collecting those 2006-2008 sessions together! [Edited 4/21/17 1:04am] [Edited 4/21/17 1:07am]

I guess my question would be, now, after his death, what is truly "official"? When Prince released music directly to the fans without record label involvement, were those "official"? Does the quality of the recording somehow make it more "official" than a subpar recording"? I am starting to lean towards the line of thinking that a release by "Tyka" and the Estate, is not any more official than a release by Ian Boxhill at this point. I could argue that Deliverance is properly curated, relased with care, a marketing effort behind it and give the attention his legacy deserves which by the definition above would make it "official" no?

Curt said:

jaypotton said:

The level of naïveté and sheer craziness of some people on here never ceases to amaze me even after nearly 20 years! The excuses some people give to explain away their addiction are just incredible and no different then if their addiction was crack rather than Prince's music! Some SANE people on this thread have already said this but I will add my two pence worth because it is simple... 1. There are OFFICIAL releases. 2. There are UNOFFICIAL releases. Official releases should be curated properly and released with the care, quality and attention Prince's legacy deserves. To do that people need to be paid (record company and estate) to ensure it remains a viable business so the releases keep flowing (but we need to realise the law of diminishing returns). Unofficial releases will happen and fans will want to get hold of them (just as we did with bootlegs) BUT NOBODY should get paid for these. Track them down and get hold of them for free by all means but do not support anyone trying to cash in (like all those unofficial releases you can now get from Amazon!) I personally have hundreds of unofficially released Prince tracks of mixed quality. I will definitely buy these in pristine quality when they are officially released because I want that perfect Prince collection but in the meantime I still get a kick out of hearing the bootleg versions (that I have never paid any money for). This guy Ian Boxhill (is that his name) could have just released this for free but he is looking for a payday (hiding behind the fact that this was "for the fans"). He may have a genuine claim for money from the estate if Prince didn't pay him for his Engineer work, but if so then he should have put that in as a claim to the estate as a creditor (yes it will take years to get his fee). Instead he secretly worked on this material for personal commercial gain. He MUST have known the estate's lawyers and Universal Music Publishing would shut him down??? And what about the digital platforms like iTunes and Amazon? Do they not question the RIGHTS issues before making content available? Not saying I don't want to have these tracks, I do, but will not/did not pay for them! AND if they get an official release in future I will buy them and won't whine about it (am hoping for. Vault release collecting those 2006-2008 sessions together! [Edited 4/21/17 1:04am] [Edited 4/21/17 1:07am]

I guess my question would be, now, after his death, what is truly "official"? When Prince released music directly to the fans without record label involvement, were those "official"? Does the quality of the recording somehow make it more "official" than a subpar recording"? I am starting to lean towards the line of thinking that a release by "Tyka" and the Estate, is not any more official than a release by Ian Boxhill at this point. I could argue that Deliverance is properly curated, relased with care, a marketing effort behind it and give the attention his legacy deserves which by the definition above would make it "official" no?

Official is anything released, or authorised for release, by the estate. There's no argumet against that. You seem to be talking about quality and Ian's release certainly fits the definition of a quality release.

tclifton said:

laurarichardson said:

No he had a contract with WB prior to his death. Contracts do not die when people die.

Copyrights do not expire upon death. They go on for another 70 years.

This guy Ian even signed a contract saying he did not and would not have ownership of anything. On t op of not having the copyright on the material.

Well, the bottom line is that I'm not going to care more about what happens to his stuff than he did.

If t his guy stole the tapes how is that not caring? If Prince copyright everything he cared.

Ingela said:

jaypotton said:

The level of naïveté and sheer craziness of some people on here never ceases to amaze me even after nearly 20 years! The excuses some people give to explain away their addiction are just incredible and no different then if their addiction was crack rather than Prince's music! Some SANE people on this thread have already said this but I will add my two pence worth because it is simple... 1. There are OFFICIAL releases. 2. There are UNOFFICIAL releases. Official releases should be curated properly and released with the care, quality and attention Prince's legacy deserves. To do that people need to be paid (record company and estate) to ensure it remains a viable business so the releases keep flowing (but we need to realise the law of diminishing returns). Unofficial releases will happen and fans will want to get hold of them (just as we did with bootlegs) BUT NOBODY should get paid for these. Track them down and get hold of them for free by all means but do not support anyone trying to cash in (like all those unofficial releases you can now get from Amazon!) I personally have hundreds of unofficially released Prince tracks of mixed quality. I will definitely buy these in pristine quality when they are officially released because I want that perfect Prince collection but in the meantime I still get a kick out of hearing the bootleg versions (that I have never paid any money for). This guy Ian Boxhill (is that his name) could have just released this for free but he is looking for a payday (hiding behind the fact that this was "for the fans"). He may have a genuine claim for money from the estate if Prince didn't pay him for his Engineer work, but if so then he should have put that in as a claim to the estate as a creditor (yes it will take years to get his fee). Instead he secretly worked on this material for personal commercial gain. He MUST have known the estate's lawyers and Universal Music Publishing would shut him down??? And what about the digital platforms like iTunes and Amazon? Do they not question the RIGHTS issues before making content available? Not saying I don't want to have these tracks, I do, but will not/did not pay for them! AND if they get an official release in future I will buy them and won't whine about it (am hoping for. Vault release collecting those 2006-2008 sessions together! [Edited 4/21/17 1:04am] [Edited 4/21/17 1:07am]

How is what you're saying "sane"? You mean debatable in court like what is happening. Prince didn't pay a debt and a man released a beautiful track he had to try and recoupe his money when no one in "the estate" would listened. They're all listening now. I call that sane and ballsy.

Ian could have filed a claim with the probate court. He did not because he knows he does not have the copyright on these songs and already signed a contract telling him he would never own the master tapes. He cannot use the tapes in exchange for payment for his labor. He is a crook and a jackass who has probaly ruined his career. The estate is going to get those tapes back and he will have to turn over all monies made or have a judgement put on him.

He cannot fight a 100 million dollar estate. The O.P is spot on.

TheEnglishGent said:

laurarichardson said:

jaypotton said:

. Edit: Oops looks like I am replying to Englishgent but I am replying to curt [Edited 4/21/17 6:56am]

I was reading your replying and thinking you'd gone mad. Then I got to the end.

I don't know about a "schism", but, both Deliverance and the track listing for Purple Rain Deluxe have definitely highlighted a problem on the org.

People talk about the estate & WB and how they should cater to the fans while proving that is IMPOSSIBLE because we, "the fans", hardly agree.

So much venom and bile is not necessary, and takes a lot of fun out of the discussion. Seems everybody has their own personal vision of what/how should be released, which is fine and normal with Prince's music. What's not fine or normal is how most of us communicate with each other around here. So many think that their opinions are facts and vicously attack those that aren't in agreement. Rudeness and nastiness are commonplace.

We need to have an understanding about how the industry works AND historical knowledge of Prince and his career to balance our own personal desires with reality. So few commenting seem to possess these skills and communicate in a civil way with others who share our passions but differ in opinions.

I know, this is nothing new for the org, it just seems like the assholes are getting louder and more belligerent. We all love Prince, it's why we're here. Can't we discuss without being disrespectful?

TheEnglishGent said:

djThunderfunk said:

Great post and a good discussion. I remember recently watching an interview with Susan Rogers, Prince's old engineer. She said she thinks everything should be released, and that's what Prince would have wanted. It was interesting to hear her perspective on it, being that she worked with him so closely for years. Yes, during his life, he was VERY specific about what he wanted released, and when, and who profited from it. However, he left no will. Not making a will is not some mere oversight from a man that had such control over everything concerning his music during his life. He had to know that others would decide what would happen going forward. And I have to think that he was ok with that, on some level. And yes, of course, his estate and attorneys now represent his interests, or at least the interestes of what he left behind. That has to be respected. But I want the other stuff too, especially if it's good. I am old enough to have lived thru the days when you had to go to a store to buy a bootleg on vinyl or tape. I had no problem supporting the musical pirates when i was a teen. I just wanted rare, unheard stuff. Prince bootlegs are the stuff of legend. I agree that it wold be best if anyone who has unlreased Prince material just put it out there for free, but there will always be those who try to make a buck. One thing that has not changed in the year since Prince's passing. The lawyers working on his behalf are no joke. Peddle at your own risk.

jaypotton said:

laurarichardson said:

Ian could have filed a claim with the probate court. He did not because he knows he does not have the copyright on these songs and already signed a contract telling him he would never own the master tapes. He cannot use the tapes in exchange for payment for his labor. He is a crook and a jackass who has probaly ruined his career. The estate is going to get those tapes back and he will have to turn over all monies made or have a judgement put on him.

He cannot fight a 100 million dollar estate. The O.P is spot on.

Laura said it better than I could have...her reply is therefore my reply re "sane"

Lol sycophants like you and Laura are not "sane"

It's gone to court, and hopefully, the family will pay the man what he is owed. Wanting to get paid is "sane"

Ingela said:

jaypotton said:

laurarichardson said: Laura said it better than I could have...her reply is therefore my reply re "sane"

Lol sycophants like you and Laura are not "sane"

It's gone to court, and hopefully, the family will pay the man what he is owed. Wanting to get paid is "sane"

You do not understand how the law works.

1) If Prince owed him money he has to file a claim however, the time for filing a claim has long passed.

2 The family will not be paying him as they have not be determined as heirs. The Comerica bank would be making the payment.

3) He cannot sell something he does not have the copyright to and he already signed a contract that stated he would never own the master tape from their production work.

4) Twirlling some knobs and slapping a chorus on the song does not make him a co-writer.

This has nothing to do with being a sycophant it has to do with the laws of our land.

I think some of you would be happy to see the estate have to sell everything off in a tax sale because they cannot generate income if this type of bootlegging continues.

Prince had touring money that he could use to subsidize Paisley Park and his projects. That money is gone and letting people steal from the estate is not going to help.

Sane is generating revnue not giving away to Ian.

lemoncrush19 said:

as someone who never bought/shared/downloaded any bootleg of any artist in my whole life b4 4/21 (a bootleg virgin so to speak) that's what I think and feel about this right now: this deliverance ep was soooooooo needed. right here. right now. and yes I've downloaded it the second it was available. for free. and I listen to it since then on repeat. no I'm not ashamed and I would do it again. it's like a gift from heaven and honestly right now I give a s**t about who could make some dollars with it (it wouldn't have been too much I guess bc the whole internet was floated with free downloads an hour after the announcement). there are times when it's much more important to reach people's hearts and make them happy than to make money. and I have the feeling this moment is a perfect one to do so and it will help his legacy more than it could damage. put me into whatever category u like for that ... I'll deal with it. for the record: I will buy every official release of prince music in future like I did in the past (further best of's I already paid for aside) but till the estate is ready with fighting and starts releasing prince's unheard music I take what I can get. TY prince 4 ur music, ur love, ur passion, ur faith ... u were my inspiration for as long as I can remember and u will always be ... in so many different ways ... until the end of time 💜💜💜

Genesia said:

yxl1 said:

The gatekeepers to his music have taken too long to release anything. We got Moonbeams and thats it. FFS, its been a year! When I saw the Deliverance EP on an unauthorized site, there was no hesitation - I grabbed it like a tramp on chips.

The Prince estate can b1tch and moan all they like but if they're gonna take their time to release his musical officially, then expect some fans to get stuff illiegally.

I should add that the EP is awesome and made my evening. For the first time in 12 months I listened to Prince music with a BIG grin.

Hopefully the gatekeepers have seen the demand for his work and will now start cracking open the vault for us all to enjoy.

laurarichardson said:

Ingela said:

Lol sycophants like you and Laura are not "sane"

It's gone to court, and hopefully, the family will pay the man what he is owed. Wanting to get paid is "sane"

You do not understand how the law works.

1) If Prince owed him money he has to file a claim however, the time for filing a claim has long passed.

2 The family will not be paying him as they have not be determined as heirs. The Comerica bank would be making the payment.

3) He cannot sell something he does not have the copyright to and he already signed a contract that stated he would never own the master tape from their production work.

4) Twirlling some knobs and slapping a chorus on the song does not make him a co-writer.

This has nothing to do with being a sycophant it has to do with the laws of our land.

I think some of you would be happy to see the estate have to sell everything off in a tax sale because they cannot generate income if this type of bootlegging continues.

Prince had touring money that he could use to subsidize Paisley Park and his projects. That money is gone and letting people steal from the estate is not going to help.

Sane is generating revnue not giving away to Ian.

Fuck the The Estate. I rather the man who actually worked on the track and is owed money get it.

Ingela said:

laurarichardson said:

You do not understand how the law works.

1) If Prince owed him money he has to file a claim however, the time for filing a claim has long passed.

2 The family will not be paying him as they have not be determined as heirs. The Comerica bank would be making the payment.

3) He cannot sell something he does not have the copyright to and he already signed a contract that stated he would never own the master tape from their production work.

4) Twirlling some knobs and slapping a chorus on the song does not make him a co-writer.

This has nothing to do with being a sycophant it has to do with the laws of our land.

I think some of you would be happy to see the estate have to sell everything off in a tax sale because they cannot generate income if this type of bootlegging continues.

Prince had touring money that he could use to subsidize Paisley Park and his projects. That money is gone and letting people steal from the estate is not going to help.

Sane is generating revnue not giving away to Ian.

Fuck the The Estate. I rather the man who actually worked on the track and is owed money get it.

Well what you and Ian want does not matter. In addtion, if Ian was owed money it would have been for his labor not royalties.

Ingela said:

jaypotton said:

In the nearly 20 years I have been on these forums (including the previous version of the Org) I have always tried to be civil and respectful even when some people posting are quite clearly mad. Probably get it wrong sometimes but hey, I am only human! Curious to know who you think the Assholes are?

I'm not going there.

Please don't think I'm being passively aggressive about this. I had no individuals* in mind with what I said, and I certainly have no issues with you.



*their posts speak for themselves...

[Edited 4/21/17 10:51am]

djThunderfunk said:

jaypotton said:

djThunderfunk said:

I'm not going there.

Please don't think I'm being passively aggressive about this. I had no individuals in mind with what I said, and I certainly have no issues with you.

Aw go on! You know you want to!!!

Opinions and preferences are one thing, they vary greatly in these parts. That's a good thing and a beautiful aspect of Prince fandom.

However, those that ignore:
-facts

-knowledge of how the industry works in general & Prince's career in specific

-and financial & legal realities
and instead argue based on their feelings or warped perceptions, are merely showing their ass, especially when they are rude and engage in personal attacks with those they disagree with rather than debate intellectually.

From what I've seen, you don't fall in to that category.

C0RAZ0N said:

LBrent said:

There are plenty of ways to obtain "unofficial" music of all types, including P music, without paying bootleggers for any of it.

And it doesn't take being a rocket scientist to find it.

;lighten up pussycat, i was just joking.

Aw, shugga, relax...I'm lighter than marshmallow fluff.

luvsexy4all said:

coldasice said:

The ruling doesn't apply to the single?????

http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop/7767922/prince-deliverance-single-for-sale-ep-restraining-order

https://deliverance.is/athand

[Edited 4/21/17 20:43pm]

Haystack said:

I have no desire to listen to a Prince song that has been 'finished' by anyone else but Prince. I don't care how good the finished product is, if that production wasn't either done by, or okayed by Prince in his lifetime, it isn't a 100% Prince song and shouldn't be classed as anything but an unofficial, bootleg mix.

So everything from now on is an unofficial bootleg mix? We have no idea if anything which gets released would have been approved by Prince while he was alive. This is our reality now and we can either not listen to anything which gets released in the future or we can accept it and enjoy what we get when we get it.

lemoncrush19 said: