bonatoc said:

JudasLChrist said:

This isn't that complex. If there's money to be made from Prince music, it needs to go to support the estate. The Estate is keeping Paisley Park open, and taking care of Prince's archive. For an engineer to 'finish' and expand some recordings he had access to, and then release that as an 'EP'... that's money grubbing.

I would gladly give my money to the estate (except it seems it's not a real direct B2C relationship, lawyers and all) if I knew the money goes to charity. Not all of it, but I would hate to see Prince's legacy not aligned to what he stood for.

I'm probably blinded by the fact I love the record so much. Sometimes I shudder thinking there was a will in which he wrote he was giving it all to charities, and then someone threw it away.
He earned every cent. I'm sure he wouldn't be too happy at the concept of people living off.

Maybe I find it a redeeming quality because I find it has been done well.
But if the money belongs to someone per law, then just let the damn record out, and take the money and give it to the names on the papers. But a trial? Another one?

You'll pardon my commercial naïveté: like John, I'm so tired, I haven't slept a week.

the estate lawyers are making a TON of money on all this wrangling. i read somewhere that tyka and her sibs have racked up 2 mil in legal fees. in a year!!??? it's clear that the attorneys are doing what attorneys do.... take advantage of other folks' troubles by maximizing their billing hours. mind you there are some good lawyers in the world, but not that many, in my experience....

Genesia said:

Do you really think this "schism" is a recent, PPD (Post Prince's Death) phenomenon? It all harkens back to the debate over bootlegs, which has raged unabated for years.

It's been a DEEP schism for at least 15 years here.

Two things.

I have always respected Prince and am a huge fan of his music. I bought all of his music more than twice over and but still pay to listen to it on Spotify.

The "buying" of records or cd's is over. I don't think I'll ever buy a CD again and most definitely won't buy the PR remaster. I'll just stream the tracks I like on Spotify. And I'm pretty sure that's how 99% of the music listening public will do also.

With Prince gone, really. I have no alliance with the record companies or whoever is making money off his work. He's gone and folks are going to milk it, officially and unofficially and I have no say or care in the matter.

His catalog is a cash cow and will generate plenty of revenue for lawyers to protect it for the foreseeable future. His legacy and work is as safe as anyone of his status. If you are worried about his work, then worry about the Beatles and The Rolling Stones and Led Zeppelin too. They're all in the same boat.

No need for melodrama, it's not your lunch anyone is taking and the lawyers are getting paid so it's all good.

I have no vested interest in them.

His work will be fine and available for generations to come, same as all legends of his status.

No need for anyone to lose sleep or take antidepressants or get personal and snap at people who have no say on what others do with his work.

[Edited 4/20/17 18:13pm]

XxAxX said:

lemoncrush19 said:

as someone who never bought/shared/downloaded any bootleg of any artist in my whole life b4 4/21 (a bootleg virgin so to speak) that's what I think and feel about this right now: this deliverance ep was soooooooo needed. right here. right now. and yes I've downloaded it the second it was available. for free. and I listen to it since then on repeat. no I'm not ashamed and I would do it again. it's like a gift from heaven and honestly right now I give a s**t about who could make some dollars with it (it wouldn't have been too much I guess bc the whole internet was floated with free downloads an hour after the announcement). there are times when it's much more important to reach people's hearts and make them happy than to make money. and I have the feeling this moment is a perfect one to do so and it will help his legacy more than it could damage. put me into whatever category u like for that ... I'll deal with it. for the record: I will buy every official release of prince music in future like I did in the past (further best of's I already paid for aside) but till the estate is ready with fighting and starts releasing prince's unheard music I take what I can get. TY prince 4 ur music, ur love, ur passion, ur faith ... u were my inspiration for as long as I can remember and u will always be ... in so many different ways ... until the end of time 💜💜💜

seconded. all that.

3rd'ed.

TO THE ESTATE:

stop worring about who else is releasing his stuff....concentrate on the vault and getting it out in a timely fashion...cant never stop whats already out there

[Edited 4/20/17 18:24pm]

love it!

bonatoc said:

redaddict said:

bonatoc said:

XxAxX said:

lemoncrush19 said:

as someone who never bought/shared/downloaded any bootleg of any artist in my whole life b4 4/21 (a bootleg virgin so to speak) that's what I think and feel about this right now: this deliverance ep was sooooo needed. right here. right now. and yes I've downloaded it the second it was available. for free. and I listen to it since then on repeat. no I'm not ashamed and I would do it again. it's like a gift from heaven and honestly right now I give a s**t about who could make some dollars with it (it wouldn't have been too much I guess bc the whole internet was floated with free downloads an hour after the announcement). there are times when it's much more important to reach people's hearts and make them happy than to make money. and I have the feeling this moment is a perfect one to do so and it will help his legacy more than it could damage. put me into whatever category u like for that ... I'll deal with it. for the record: I will buy every official release of prince music in future like I did in the past (further best of's I already paid for aside) but till the estate is ready with fighting and starts releasing prince's unheard music I take what I can get. TY prince 4 ur music, ur love, ur passion, ur faith ... u were my inspiration for as long as I can remember and u will always be ... in so many different ways ... until the end of time 💜💜💜

seconded. all that.

3rd'ed.

Marrk said:

I was expecting at least some twangy Banjo on 'Deliverance'

Thank You for the laugh.

I really needed it.

my 2 cents..

as far as I'm concerned - anything goes.

If Prince wanted his affairs to be handled a certain way after he was gone, he should have prepared for that. It's that simple. There is nobody else to blame but him for this ridiculous situation.

He left no guidelines, so anything goes. It's that simple in my mind.

I want the music, I couldn't care less where it comes from, or who makes money from it.

When he was alive - different story, you were depriving HIM himself of income by obtaining his music elsewhere, but now that is not the case. I have no interest in filling Tyka's pockets of which she doesn't deserve a single cent.

I will probably buy PR Deluxe if the extra tracks are worth it, but not for the reason of supporting the estate, I don't care about that. With Graceland handling the PP side of things, the museum should be self-sustaining, profits from vault recordings is not even in that discussion in my mind.

Bring it on.

[Edited 4/20/17 22:57pm]

bonatoc said:

It will soon become obvious that this is a masterpiece on SOTT levels.
In under 15 minutes. EP of the year.

I say let's make a Kickstarter and pay for the trial.
Just to show them how stupid they are for not opening The Vault.

[Edited 4/20/17 12:58pm]

Fucking hell... Are people in here really that fucking dumb to spout the retarded shit posted above??
You obviously have no clue about anything regarding the vault, the legal issues and the control to think they can open the vaults and magically release everything... If you want a shitstorm regarding Prince's vaults where every single fan loses then, sure, they should just open the vaults...

Neversin.

The gatekeepers to his music have taken too long to release anything. We got Moonbeams and thats it. FFS, its been a year! When I saw the Deliverance EP on an unauthorized site, there was no hesitation - I grabbed it like a tramp on chips.

The Prince estate can b1tch and moan all they like but if they're gonna take their time to release his musical officially, then expect some fans to get stuff illiegally.

I should add that the EP is awesome and made my evening. For the first time in 12 months I listened to Prince music with a BIG grin.

Hopefully the gatekeepers have seen the demand for his work and will now start cracking open the vault for us all to enjoy.

Sometimes I wonder if all the debate to "what to buy" and "what to not buy" is determined according to the fact that P was one of the artist that descouraged the bootlegs market.

There are many artists that instead accepted the fact that their fan want all they can have, and they choose to live well with it, not sayin' "Do It!" but not sayin' "Don't Do It".

That said, the fact I'm sure of is that I'm a P fan from more than 30 years and in these 30 years I buyed all P official releases. All.

So I never made any commercial damage to the man I was supporting.

I also buyed "94 East", that many of you probably have in their collection, and other similar semi-official releases.

At the same time, I buyed many bootleg releases (particularly studio material), simply to have "all I can have" of my favourite artist and enjoy the more deep I could his art.

Honestly, I don't feel guilty for this.

Today, after his death, the story has never changed....

I will buy any official release. The Estate will never miss any money from me.

At the same time I will buy any semi-official release ("Deliverance" is conceptually a release like "94 East", commercially talking).

And if tomorrow there will be a bootleg CD release of the original 1989 "Rave Un2 Joy Fantastic" (to give an example), I will buy it.

My two cents.

-- Sorry double post. --

[Edited 4/21/17 0:59am]

jaypotton said:

And what about the digital platforms like iTunes and Amazon? Do they not question the RIGHTS issues before making content available?

They don't. Well, I say that with a view to the app store rather than the music store but I can't imagine it being much different. With the app store you can put up what you won't, providing it gets past the app review process. It'll stay until someone challenges it's validity at which point you can put your case. If you don't have a valid case then the app will get pulled. Seems like this is exactly what has happened with Deliverance.

TheEnglishGent said:

Personally, I really needed to hear this EP. For the last year it's been all about the death and hardly nothing about the music. Prince didn't leave a will, that was his choice. He knew the score. They released a greatest hits album just in time for Xmas and included an unreleased song that most diehard fans were already familiar with. They did not even bother to create an official Moonbeam Levels video to promote both the unreleased song and the whole album. While there is all this discussion about who inherits what and who has the rights to whatever, we, the ones who are all about the music, wait patiently for something new. It's been a year. Deliverance was like closure for some. I will buy everything the Estate puts out, unless they repeat stuff like Prince4Ever. Everything. I dream about the day in which they will release a DVD for the P&M tour. In the meantime... we got six new songs to play on repeat and discuss. Anything that can really distract me from the sadness is welcome in my books.

Curt said:

Neversin said:

bonatoc said:

It will soon become obvious that this is a masterpiece on SOTT levels.
In under 15 minutes. EP of the year.

I say let's make a Kickstarter and pay for the trial.
Just to show them how stupid they are for not opening The Vault.

[Edited 4/20/17 12:58pm]

Fucking hell... Are people in here really that fucking dumb to spout the retarded shit posted above??
You obviously have no clue about anything regarding the vault, the legal issues and the control to think they can open the vaults and magically release everything... If you want a shitstorm regarding Prince's vaults where every single fan loses then, sure, they should just open the vaults...

Neversin.

I agree. Childish and simplistic view. Erratum.
I know you can't just break into the vaults. Got carried away.
I feel like the youngs spirits are missing something,
and Time Waits 4 No One.

For a music lover, Prince is always like a breath of fresh air. It's missing. He's missed.

laurarichardson said:

Curt said:

It is more apparent than ever that we are quickly dividing into two camps when it comes to future releases of Prince's music.

On the one hand, you have those who are trying to respect the way Prince managed releases while he was alive and project that same way of doing business onto his death.

On the other, you have the "give me all the music" folks who believe it all should be released without regard to the way Prince managed his releases while he was alive.

Without judgement, I believe there are flaws on both sides and everyone's worldview will likely impact how they view the issue. Here are a few questions raised time and time again, with some initial thoughts for discussion.

Who should make money off of Prince after his death?

There are those who believe it should be nobody as evidenced by the hate Ian Boxhill has received from this board for releasing the material. But if not him, then who should release material and not receive the same hate? Warner Brother's? The Estate? The way some see it, NOBODY should make money off him as we see all the hate Paisley Park is receiving for charging $500 for the "celebration" when we didn't even pay that much to see HIM at Paisley Park. Why should it be ok for Tyka, Universal, Duane to make money off of Prince releases they had no hand in producing over Ian Boxill who at least was in the room creating with him? I would argue, if you can not accept that somebody will make money off of his releases, then you can not also complain when nothing gets released.

Shouldn't it be all about the music and sharing Prince's gift with the world?

At first, I could not understand the negative comments being made about the PR deluxe tracklist, but the more I read, it became apparent that the negative reactions were usually based on an "I already have that, what a waste" attitude. If the feelings about any new release is based upon whether or not it is already in your collection or not, then it is likely not about sharing his gift for the world. The purposeful and planned release of music over a long period of time is likely the best way to ensure his legacy will be respected for generations to come. A big vault dump in order to round out your personal collection is not in keeping with how Prince managed the release of his own music, but now that he is gone, it can only be accomplished within the apparatus of the music industry (labels, publishers, and others P hated) which will all need to get paid or via "unauthorized" means which would also be against anything P would have wanted.

With no will, everyone has an opinion on what to do and why.

Everyone and noone is right on what to do. Perhaps as someone posted, this is the "organized chaos" he wished for? What is the goal now? What was the goal when he was alive? Making money? Giving to charity? Releasing as much music as possible? Spreading spirituality? Uplifting people of color? Empowering women? Building a legacy? Preventing his music from being released? If he wanted songs in the vault to be released why didn't he do it more than once (Crystal Ball)? Probably all of the above and since we have not seen any comprehensive strategy on how any of these can be achieved in his death, chaos reigns.

So, we can't have it both ways...

Is it disrespectful to support the labels who will be releasing stuff at the estate's consent?

Is it more disprespectful to get anything we can get our hands on released by any tom, dick or harry without regard to who is getting paid?

Is it disrespectful to create an unauthorized recording of a concert? Is it any less disrespectful to download, listen to and share it?

Is it disrespectful of the estate to release songs from the vault that he himself chose not to release? Is it more disprespectful for Prince not to have a plan for what to do with his most valuable asset that he took decades to build?

Either we accept that only the estate should make money off of the vault and then also accept the way and manner in which they choose to release his music, nobody should make money off the vault and be happy not receiving anything or believe that everyone should be able to make money off of the vault and accept a haphazard release of material from various sources that would likely do more harm than good to his legacy.

. . . .

--/He signed a deal with WB for some of the albums that give them license rights for eternity. The deals do not expire because he died. Nothing wrong with supporting releases that are authorized.

Paid in Bitcoins. Provisioned on blocked accounts until legal is sorted out. There's a somewhat standard service prices grid in the business. The price splits are well known.
When it's sorted out, what has been provisioned is the standard observed amount.
I don't need no will to remember that Prince said that 50%-50% would be a fair deal.

Oh, I dunno. I'm blabbering like an old fart. They have my money too, if anyone involved can give me vynils mastered from The Source.

"License rights fo eternity"? Are sure such a thing exists? I'm under the impression that all of it will be public domain 70 years from now.

Phoque, I'll be old by then!

bonatoc said:

laurarichardson said:

Curt said: --/He signed a deal with WB for some of the albums that give them license rights for eternity. The deals do not expire because he died. Nothing wrong with supporting releases that are authorized.

Paid in Bitcoins. Provisioned on blocked accounts until legal is sorted out. There's a somewhat standard service prices grid in the business. The price splits are well known.
When it's sorted out, what has been provisioned is the standard observed amount.
I don't need no will to remember that Prince said that 50%-50% would be a fair deal.

Oh, I dunno. I'm blabbering like an old fart. They have my money too, if anyone involved can give me vynils mastered from The Source.

"License rights fo eternity"? Are sure such a thing exists? I'm under the impression that all of it will be public domain 70 years from now.

Yes, it is called being evergreen. WB can license out the soundtracks and who knows what eles forever. The estate owns the masters. What other company would want to license only a portion of the catalogue and not even own the master tapes.

He fixed it up pretty good if you ask me. He let UMG go as his admin and there must have been a reason so when Londell and company went with them they were going against his wishes and violating agreements he had already put in place.

So this "evergreen" deal goes both ways?
WB licensing for ever and the estate owning the masters forever as well?

He didn't leave a will, and by doing so he forefits any rights to be able to have a say in anythign that happens after his death.

I say bring on the music...all of it...and I couldn't care less who gets paid or who doesn't.

bonatoc said:

So this "evergreen" deal goes both ways?
WB licensing for ever and the estate owning the masters forever as well?

I believe there is no contract for the estate owning the masters but I could be wrong.

I am under the impression that he got the master back all at one time in exchange for the licensing deal. He would have started getting the albums back after 35 years but he would have been dead by the the time he got all of them back.

This is what I think went on with the deal. WB is responsible for distrubuting and marketing the music and they split the profits with the estate.

Prince I doubt would have been able to come up with the funds to get this old material out as well as the vault material. I see the deal as a way for him to get out the music without losing money and having some piece of mind that the music had a home.

I also believe that WB had some rights to music in the vault that he recorded while under contract to them but I guess it would depend on what his contracts stated but realize he could have just arranged for WB to license to the music from the WB period when he signed the deal.

After all he put out Crystal Ball and WB did nothing to stop him.

The thing that know one seemed to know is that each album appears to have different terms. According to news reports some give WB license forever, some end in 2021, and some give WB rights internationally forever.

If this is true need I doubt anyone else is going to be interested in the WB years. Most companies will want these albums to license as in all of them and are not going to want to have only U.S. rights or some of the albums

I doubt anyone is interested in the post WB years at all. In the end I think everything will be taken care of by WB and this must have been what Prince wanted to happen. It does stop or make it hard for th estate lawyers to take bids on the license and hard if the sibs everywant to sell the masters. Who would want the masters without the license rights?

The thing that is weird is that Londell and Koppleman could have probally found out about the deal from Van Jones or the entertaiment lawer that worked on the deal. Or just contacted WB.

It is mind boggling that they did no due dillegnce.

tclifton said:

He didn't leave a will, and by doing so he forefits any rights to be able to have a say in anythign that happens after his death.

I say bring on the music...all of it...and I couldn't care less who gets paid or who doesn't.

No he had a contract with WB prior to his death. Contracts do not die when people die.

Copyrights do not expire upon death. They go on for another 70 years.

This guy Ian even signed a contract saying he did not and would not have ownership of anything. On t op of not having the copyright on the material.

jaypotton said:

Genesia said:

Do you really think this "schism" is a recent, PPD (Post Prince's Death) phenomenon? It all harkens back to the debate over bootlegs, which has raged unabated for years.

Good point. It just seems like it has boiled to the surface with this one in a way that I haven't seen in quite a while..

laurarichardson said:

tclifton said:

He didn't leave a will, and by doing so he forefits any rights to be able to have a say in anythign that happens after his death.

I say bring on the music...all of it...and I couldn't care less who gets paid or who doesn't.

No he had a contract with WB prior to his death. Contracts do not die when people die.

Copyrights do not expire upon death. They go on for another 70 years.

This guy Ian even signed a contract saying he did not and would not have ownership of anything. On t op of not having the copyright on the material.

Well, the bottom line is that I'm not going to care more about what happens to his stuff than he did.